sell me on the NE or NW to live (USA)

[Erloas]

So maybe its a bit of a mid-life crisis, but I'm ready for something different. It will actually be a while before I can move (like 2-10 year range) but I would like to get some input anyway. Some aspects can change in that time but others won't. But also if I'm going to move somewhere far away I'll have to take a few visits and that will take some time, so I'm looking for a direction.

Right now I live in the middle of nowhere (about 180 miles from the nearest city with over 100k people) but not really rural. My job pays well but its just getting old, and while I could just find another job and fix some of that, there are other things that I would like to do that can't really be done here. So my goal is to buy a new truck, a new boat, and save up about 200-300k (mostly in equity) then move somewhere more interesting. Then I'll still need a job to pay the bills but the sort of job I'll need will be a lot different than if I had to buy a house, boat, etc.. If there are better jobs in the area then that can change the timetables, and cost of living and housing especially will have a big impact on how much I have to save.

So what I want is somewhere green, where I can grow things with nature helping out a bit (it doesn't here). I want to be able to fish on the ocean, preferably with enough coves and bays that I can do a lot without going into the open ocean (not going to be that big of a boat). I want seasons (I lived in Phoenix for 8 years where the two seasons where really hot and decent), and I don't mind snow. And I don't really want huge bugs everywhere, which pretty much rules out the more southern part of the country.

That puts me with either Oregon and Washington, or the New England area. New England gets a lot more snow than where I live now, but it is condensed into fewer months. The Northwest is closer to the rest of my family, but even there is a long drive so I would likely fly and the cost of flying between either area and where I live is not that different. I want to be close enough to the ocean that I can put my boat in, fish, and go home in the same day. Most of the rest of the stuff I like doing I think most areas of the country would be pretty similar. Although I think the NE area would be better to get wood for woodworking as the Washington area is much more pine than hardwoods. I don't want to be in a large metro area, but I figure I'll at least be pretty close to one for the occasional trip. A bit of seclusion, if that is possible, would be nice.

[Peelee]

I would love to live in Vermont, for reasons I can't get into here. The thought of driving in snow scares the crap out of me, though.

[Winter_Wolf]

Not really on your list, but if you're dead set on nature and fishing seawater, Southeast Alaska could work. A bit pricey but then again I don't know what your skills are so that's really the wild card. 'Course most folk who didn't grow up there seem to have trouble swinging the sheer variance of daylight hours and I gather it rains quite a bit down by the panhandle. Kenai Peninsula (Southcentral AK) could also work, with more or less the same problems and benefits, but a closer drive to Anchorage.

My pitch aside, how you swing socially and culturally is important. Washington state has changed drastically from what it was when I lived there (Grunge was peaking), and frankly I'm glad I don't live there anymore. But the mountains are gorgeous. Olympic peninsula is pretty sweet, too.

[Rynjin]

I've lived all my life on the East coast (the Southeast part, Florida), so maybe I'm biased, but I like it over here. I spent a few years in Maryland recently and I think it's a pretty nice place to live if you can afford to live anywhere nice. The surrounding states are probably similar. I'd recommend it.


I would love to live in Vermont, for reasons I can't get into here. The thought of driving in snow scares the crap out of me, though.

In my (fairly limited to two winters in Maryland, though they were apparently some of the worst in recent memory) experience, driving in snow really isn't that bad. If you've ever driven in mud (like on a dirt road just after or during a heavy rainstorm), you've basically driven in snow. It'll lock your tires a bit and slip under them at the same time in pretty much all the same ways.

[Icewraith]

So maybe its a bit of a mid-life crisis, but I'm ready for something different. It will actually be a while before I can move (like 2-10 year range) but I would like to get some input anyway. Some aspects can change in that time but others won't. But also if I'm going to move somewhere far away I'll have to take a few visits and that will take some time, so I'm looking for a direction.

Right now I live in the middle of nowhere (about 180 miles from the nearest city with over 100k people) but not really rural. My job pays well but its just getting old, and while I could just find another job and fix some of that, there are other things that I would like to do that can't really be done here. So my goal is to buy a new truck, a new boat, and save up about 200-300k (mostly in equity) then move somewhere more interesting. Then I'll still need a job to pay the bills but the sort of job I'll need will be a lot different than if I had to buy a house, boat, etc.. If there are better jobs in the area then that can change the timetables, and cost of living and housing especially will have a big impact on how much I have to save.

So what I want is somewhere green, where I can grow things with nature helping out a bit (it doesn't here). I want to be able to fish on the ocean, preferably with enough coves and bays that I can do a lot without going into the open ocean (not going to be that big of a boat). I want seasons (I lived in Phoenix for 8 years where the two seasons where really hot and decent), and I don't mind snow. And I don't really want huge bugs everywhere, which pretty much rules out the more southern part of the country.

That puts me with either Oregon and Washington, or the New England area. New England gets a lot more snow than where I live now, but it is condensed into fewer months. The Northwest is closer to the rest of my family, but even there is a long drive so I would likely fly and the cost of flying between either area and where I live is not that different. I want to be close enough to the ocean that I can put my boat in, fish, and go home in the same day. Most of the rest of the stuff I like doing I think most areas of the country would be pretty similar. Although I think the NE area would be better to get wood for woodworking as the Washington area is much more pine than hardwoods. I don't want to be in a large metro area, but I figure I'll at least be pretty close to one for the occasional trip. A bit of seclusion, if that is possible, would be nice.

You can do a lot of that in the the Puget Sound area of Washington State. But.
It rains a lot. You may be vulnerable to a general lack of sun. A visit, even for a couple weeks, might not be comparable to the experience of it being gloomy for months at a time. Also, the things you can grow are somewhat limited by the consistent rain and gloomy days (but lots of things will grow). The Seattle area is cheaper than LA (most places are), but the traffic is worse due to terrain and space limitations on freeways. A lot worse. But people know how to drive in the rain.

I have family that used to vacation in the San Juan Islands during the summer months. If you're not a fan of the tourism industry it may not be a great place to find a "normal" job. They were able to fish and use crab traps for a substantial portion (but not all) of their food intake. They managed with a ... 14? foot boat (3-ish people could fish off it without getting too much in each others' way) but you might want to go a little bigger (the main metric I remember regarding the boat length is "smaller than an Orca"). If you're not doing tourist-y things it's pretty quiet. If you don't like eating salmon (if you haven't had salmon caught fresh and prepared in the Pacific Northwest, you may not know what good salmon tastes like, so don't rule out living here solely on this basis), consider somewhere else. The islands do have a stable population of artists (woodcarving is big), hippies, hermits, retirees, free spirits, and craft store owners along with the influx of rich people visiting summer homes and tourists. There's seclusion to be had. The rural areas of Washington State are a mix of mostly "normal" people and people whose sole mission in life is to conform to hippie or redneck stereotypes.

The seasons are all "rain and something else" (snow, gloom, nice days, hot, more rain). If you don't like rain, avoid. Avoid avoid avoid. Granted, a lot of the time the rain is less "torrential downpour" and more "gentle mist" but you do still get some of the first kind.

[Erloas]

Well where I am now it seems like we have plenty of sun (never really paid that much attention) but we're high desert, with an annual rainfall of about 6.5". So yeah, plenty of sun with that. Of course the other side of that is big temperature changes. Like we can go from highs of -5f to 65f in a week if the conditions are right. Snow is almost a given through May, and you'll see some in September on occasion too. We had a day this winter where we hit -35f which is as cold as I ever remember it being.
The big thing we have here is wind, lots of wind most of the time. Which makes it hard to get out on a boat. Now I wouldn't go out much in the rain, but we rarely get rain without wind and it is generally the wind that is the big issue. If the rain isn't enough to keep people trapped inside a lot then that is probably fine.

We have kokanee salmon here (which is a version of sockeye that never go to the ocean) so I've had them quite a bit, though I tend to catch a lot more trout that salmon.

Plan for a boat is around a 17-19ft aluminum boat, would get that for fishing here prior to moving. Though with all the rain I can see why so many of the Northwest style boats have the built in canopies.

I have been to the area twice, I have/had some relatives that lived in the general area but it was probably 20+ years since then. I know we went to the Olympic Peninsula and did a bit of crabbing but I can't remember much specifically.
Although that is some of why I want to go back to an area like that.

It does seem like the NW area has a lot better weather overall than the NE but there seems to be good and bad aspects to both.

[Peelee]

We had a day this winter where we hit -35f

Nope. Nope nope nope nope.

[Talanic]

How dead-set are you on the ocean? Would the Great Lakes be sufficient? Because I'm from Wisconsin, and it might bear consideration for you. There's not only boat landings for fishing on the Great Lakes, you can go spear fishing and even ice fishing in the winter.

You get all kinds of things growing here. Go to Door County if you'd like some cherry trees, and you'll be within a few miles of Lake Michigan - and about a half hour drive or so from Green Bay, which fits your 100k population threshold. You get snow here, sometimes heavy, and occasionally it does drop to -35, but we build for it. Door County is also a bit of a tourist destination, so there's plenty of infrastructure for visiting - inns and whatnot, so you can check things out and get a good idea of the land.

In all honesty, I am not an outdoorsman, but I know that there are plenty of people around here who are, and who love it. It's a good state. People underestimate how pretty these rolling hills can be.

On top of that, I'd guess that you've heard of Midwest hospitality. It's not a joke; people here really are quite friendly.

[lio45]

and cost of living and housing especially will have a big impact on how much I have to save.

So what I want is somewhere green, where I can grow things with nature helping out a bit (it doesn't here).

I want seasons

A bit of seclusion, if that is possible, would be nice.

If you want to meet all those criteria, I can let you camp and live off the grid in the middle of my 220 acres in northern New Hampshire.

I warn you though, given that you say southeast means too many bugs, the mosquitoes over there are orders of magnitude worse than the areas I'm familiar with (FL and TX). Apples to oranges though obviously (forest vs urban areas).

[Erloas]

How dead-set are you on the ocean? Would the Great Lakes be sufficient? Because I'm from Wisconsin, and it might bear consideration for you. There's not only boat landings for fishing on the Great Lakes, you can go spear fishing and even ice fishing in the winter.

You get all kinds of things growing here. Go to Door County if you'd like some cherry trees, and you'll be within a few miles of Lake Michigan - and about a half hour drive or so from Green Bay, which fits your 100k population threshold. You get snow here, sometimes heavy, and occasionally it does drop to -35, but we build for it. Door County is also a bit of a tourist destination, so there's plenty of infrastructure for visiting - inns and whatnot, so you can check things out and get a good idea of the land.

In all honesty, I am not an outdoorsman, but I know that there are plenty of people around here who are, and who love it. It's a good state. People underestimate how pretty these rolling hills can be.

On top of that, I'd guess that you've heard of Midwest hospitality. It's not a joke; people here really are quite friendly.
I have a friend from The Mitten. Was specifically looking at the ocean so I could get things like crabs and/or lobster, and maybe occasionally go for some of the big fish, though I know not all are in the parts of the ocean I would be by and I know the Great Lakes have to have some big fish of their own. But part of it is trying to avoid the really bad winters. Which really is my biggest concern with the New England area. There is some big differences between places like Connecticut and northern Maine though, so its hard to bunch it all together.
I didn't have a specific criteria of 100k, just usually the cut off between "big" and "small" but I know a lot of that means a lot less in the eastern part of the country.
I'm living in Wyoming and for the most part everyone is in cities because the climate doesn't really allow for the wide spread farming (or anything really) that so many other places do, so having a lot of land doesn't actually let you do too much with it. And in terms of things like hunting camps, well there is so much open space here that you don't need to own a big piece of land to have some place to hunt because there is pretty much nothing as soon as you leave town anyway.
To put it into perspective though, the county I live in is almost exactly the same size as Massachusetts but we have a population of about 45k compared to 6.8m. And our population is in 2 cities close to each other, the rest is pretty much empty.

Which is part of the appeal, but also some of the problem. I can be on the lake in about 20 minutes where I live now, but we're limited to a few types of trout, salmon, and smallmouth bass. Pretty much anything else requires a longer drive, closest Walleye are 3hrs, and things like Pike are even farther.

I'm sure your falls and springs are more pronounced. We get hard freezes late into the spring, a given into mid May but not uncommon into June. And we get them early in the fall, like September, so its really hard on a lot of types of plants. The complete lack of rain also makes it a lot more work to grow things.
It just gets old. I don't have a problem with winter but it just never wants to leave. Going from a few really nice days to snowing the next makes it hard to plan any sort of outdoor activities. But again, the biggest issue seems to be the wind. We loose a lot of potentially nice weather days to wind where its just to windy to want to do anything outside and getting on a boat is just out of the question. Semis are literally blown off the roads at times.


If you want to meet all those criteria, I can let you camp and live off the grid in the middle of my 220 acres in northern New Hampshire.

I warn you though, given that you say southeast means too many bugs, the mosquitoes over there are orders of magnitude worse than the areas I'm familiar with (FL and TX). Apples to oranges though obviously (forest vs urban areas).
I think it would be a cool to check it out, but not actually wanting to live off the grid. Just a "slower paced" life than what I have now. I'm used to mosquitoes, but yeah, we probably have orders of magnitude fewer around here than those areas. I just know the cold helps reduce some of the bugs. No fist sized cockroaches here.
I do have some relatives in Minnesota that I've visited a few times and I know the mosquitoes and tics and things like that are very common.

[BWR]

The thought of driving in snow scares the crap out of me, though.

It's not the snow or ice that is the problem, it's ********/idiot drivers. You know, the kind that want to go full speed or more on a slick road in blackest night with no light except oncoming headlights and the blinding snow/slush coming down like a wet blanket.

[Peelee]

It's not the snow or ice that is the problem, it's ********/idiot drivers. You know, the kind that want to go full speed or more on a slick road in blackest night with no light except oncoming headlights and the blinding snow/slush coming down like a wet blanket.

I don't think I could handle that at any speed.

[Knaight]

I don't think I could handle that at any speed.

I've done it on a bike more than once. Those were not good times.

[Winter_Wolf]

I don't think I could handle that at any speed.

It's always fun when a driver discovers what "black ice" means. Some people in SE Wisconsin seem to have to rediscover what it means every. Single. Winter.

My wife is a cautious driver but she never had to drive in the crap winter weather until last year. She was freaking out about how there must be oil or something on the roads because of all the cars she saw in the ditch and how hrs it was driving even just half the speed limit. I had a bit of a laugh at her expense after she arrived home safe and sound. She never appreciated why I hated driving on rural roads in winter weather until this last one.

[Karen Lynn]

As a traveler, I can tell you bits of the US.

The NE has a very strong separation of "Dense population" and "Scream for hours and nobody will notice". Everybody lives in really small, cramped areas. Maine has harsh winters, but as far as the northeast goes, it's probably the best option on your list without going south of DC.

The NW has lots of trees, and the population centers are packed tighter than slaves on a boat. There are several towns and cities that are dying because of some bird or lizard being found in their industry area(Hoquiam/Aberdeen). I hear the cost of living isn't too terrible closer to the coast in the northern half of the state.

If it weren't for the ocean requirement/non-winter requirement, I'd push Wisconsin. Some of the greenest hills I've seen, and nothing there is too expensive.

[Knaight]

It's always fun when a driver discovers what "black ice" means. Some people in SE Wisconsin seem to have to rediscover what it means every. Single. Winter.

Black ice is the worst - I have three wrecks to chalk up to it, and while all of them were on a bicycle (black ice and having two wheels doesn't mix well) it's still three too many. You're just minding your own business, going at a mild 12 mph, then suddenly your shoulder is skidding along the asphalt, one knee is torn up, and you're really glad you learned how to fall properly and tensed up your shoulders and neck, because whiplash sucks and bike helmets are expensive to replace. Fun times*.

So, if you're planning on going to the NE, be prepared to deal with that. I suspect it's no worse than it is in the midwest and more northern parts of the west though.

*Not actually fun times.

[thorgrim29]

Are you married to the US? Because Moncton is actively looking for people, especially in IT. I've never been to New Brunswick myself but it has a good reputation, it's not far from the ocean and Moncton is supposedly a boomtown waiting to happen. It talks about politic a lot so I won't share it here but there was a 10 minute segment on it a few days ago you can find on The National youtube channel.

[Rynjin]

It's not the snow or ice that is the problem, it's ********/idiot drivers. You know, the kind that want to go full speed or more on a slick road in blackest night with no light except oncoming headlights and the blinding snow/slush coming down like a wet blanket.

I thought Florida was bad until I tried driving in Maryland and DC.

Most of the bad drivers here have an excuse. Either a lot of them are from countries where road rules are more like guidelines (South Florida) or they're from the northeast (central Florida, Orlando area in particular. I've never been to New York or New Jersey and I already hate everyone that lives there).

[Erloas]

Ice and snow hasn't been that much of a problem for me driving. I'm not looking to get rid of snow, just don't want to see it 7+ months out of the year.

I'm not set on the USA, just don't think it would be possible for me to go anywhere else. Of course both places I picked are pretty close to Canada. I'm sure I could do IT, I just decided to go in a different direction so my experience is in other things. And looking at the Moncton wikipedia page I don't think I would be seeing any upgrade in weather...

[Scarlet Knight]

Might I suggest NE New York along the Hudson River? How far north you go depends on your desire for trees vs going into the city ( either NY or Boston) for ballgames and the like.

You can boat or fish in the Hudson (or one of the many beautiful lakes or even in the ocean if you must & stay more south).

Plenty of farm country. Gets cold but much better than Canada. Skiing opportunities when it does.

[BWR]

I don't think I could handle that at any speed.

It's a tad stressful.
*needs a drink at the mere memory*

[kyoryu]

The PNW is beautiful and amazing.

But SAD is a thing.

[Tvtyrant]

Being from the northwest, prices here are higher then on the east coast (even including houses in the crappy desert that makes up most of oregon and half of washington and california.) The homeless population is also higher here, and we axe farms for houses to make room for people fleeing other states at a rapid rate. My hometown had 35,000 people when I was born, it reached 100,000 a few years ago and they are about to add 10-20,000 more people this year (they removed all of the farms between the two north-south thorough fairs and are putting a sub-town there.)

It gets a little better on prices in the more remote rural areas, in return for having no economy to speak of. But it is okay, because eventually the Portland kraken reaches you and you suddenly boom in population like Gaston has been going through recently.

[Erloas]

At least with the hills and forests of Oregon some areas just can't be swallowed up the way that happened in other places. Like Phoenix, where there is nothing stopping any growth and there is nothing at all between cities.

It seems like you pretty much must be in Portland, or at least one of the suburbs. Of course for people from the area its probably "we used to be our own town" but for those of us outside, its all essentially Portland. (I saw that in Phoenix, people from Scottsdale made a point of being from "Scottsdale, not Phoenix" but when you leave and the only indication of change is a sign and you're completely surrounded by all sides by Phoenix, then you are Phoenix no matter what you try to claim.) At any rate, I wasn't specifically looking at Portland, though I know it is where young people go to retire. For me it is farther from the ocean than I had wanted to be, though possible jobs is going to dictate some of that. Of course from the sound of things no one moves to Portland for the jobs, so there is a good chance I wouldn't end up there anyway.


As for seasonal depression, I couldn't see that as being an issue for me. We might get more sun here but I think we're far from having more enjoyable weather. As long as it isn't too windy that should be a huge improvement as far as I'm concerned. Though wind isn't nearly as common to find in records, I know where I can find it, just takes a bit more work so I hadn't planned on doing that much more until I either have more free time or narrowed things down some more.

[Algeh]

With Oregon, if you need a generic "I have a degree and plan to work indoors doing businessy things" job, the Portland metro area is your best bet, or one of the towns along I-5 like Salem depending on what you do specifically.

The rural areas have relatively few available jobs. Many of our more rural communities were based around things like logging, and those types of jobs have diminished in recent decades. Some of our more rural counties are struggling for how to pay for relatively basic levels of police service, and several have closed their public libraries.

I'm not entirely sure how the coastal fishing communities are doing jobs-wise, but I know we've been having issues with delayed crab seasons due to toxic blooms the last few years. We have a mixture of "working" parts of the coast and pure tourist parts, so if you can afford to work at a seasonal tourist job because you don't need much income (but are willing to live a bit inland, since ocean view properties are expensive), somewhere along the coast might be pretty reasonable for your requirements. All ocean beaches in Oregon are public access (except for some places with seasonal closures to protect nesting seabirds and such), but not all have places to put in boats so you'd need to research that part. I know there's a bunch of complicated stuff about sport versus commercial fishing locations, seasons, and methods going on right now, but I think it's mostly focused on the rivers and estuaries along the Columbia. (I don't fish, so I only follow such things on a policy/politics level, which is not a board-appropriate topic.)

Also, the entire west coast has that whole "probably going to have a giant earthquake with likely accompanying tsunami sooner or later" thing going on. That may or may not be worrisome to you.

[Erloas]

Luckily for me a check shows boat ramps on Google Maps, though it wasn't really clear which, if any, were public.

I'm thinking Seattle is probably my best bet for a decent job and access to the ocean, or more technically there Puget Sound. Fair trip to the open ocean, but my primary goal is smaller more protected parts of the ocean, so pretty much ideal. It seems like most of the main parts of Oregon are on the opposite side of a mountain range from the coast, not a long trip but not really short either.

The question about jobs is most of my experience is now in the industrial side of things, and there is a pretty good chance there isn't much of that too close to the coasts. I could easily do more tech type work but my experience isn't as helpful there. Then the issue tends to be commute versus cost of living and closeness to the ocean.

I'm going to try to plan a trip to the general area sometime this summer or fall to check things out.

[Algeh]

Luckily for me a check shows boat ramps on Google Maps, though it wasn't really clear which, if any, were public.

I'm thinking Seattle is probably my best bet for a decent job and access to the ocean, or more technically there Puget Sound. Fair trip to the open ocean, but my primary goal is smaller more protected parts of the ocean, so pretty much ideal. It seems like most of the main parts of Oregon are on the opposite side of a mountain range from the coast, not a long trip but not really short either.

The question about jobs is most of my experience is now in the industrial side of things, and there is a pretty good chance there isn't much of that too close to the coasts. I could easily do more tech type work but my experience isn't as helpful there. Then the issue tends to be commute versus cost of living and closeness to the ocean.

I'm going to try to plan a trip to the general area sometime this summer or fall to check things out.

Makes sense. Seattle is really expensive to live in/near, though. If you're from a different part of the country, it might be a lot more money than you're used to spending on housing. (The Portland area is not cheap either, but my Seattle friends tell me it's even worse up there.)

[Erloas]

I've looked at prices all over the place. Seattle doesn't look too bad. Of course I also don't know the areas to avoid. Usually housing costs and employment go hand in hand though, cheap houses usually mean no work and high prices usually means the area pays pretty well, if not the market wouldn't support those costs. Closer to city center is usually higher too, but that's fine with me because that's not where I want to be. Where I want to be usually end up being cheaper. Overall what I've seen it doesn't look too out of line from where I'm at now, though we have high home prices here too.

[sleepy hedgehog]

Luckily for me a check shows boat ramps on Google Maps, though it wasn't really clear which, if any, were public.

I'm thinking Seattle is probably my best bet for a decent job and access to the ocean, or more technically there Puget Sound. Fair trip to the open ocean, but my primary goal is smaller more protected parts of the ocean, so pretty much ideal. It seems like most of the main parts of Oregon are on the opposite side of a mountain range from the coast, not a long trip but not really short either.

The question about jobs is most of my experience is now in the industrial side of things, and there is a pretty good chance there isn't much of that too close to the coasts. I could easily do more tech type work but my experience isn't as helpful there. Then the issue tends to be commute versus cost of living and closeness to the ocean.

I'm going to try to plan a trip to the general area sometime this summer or fall to check things out.

Don't go during the summer, it's not a good representation of what Seattle's weather is usually like.
I ended up leaving after 1 year, because I didn't want to go through it again.

[An Enemy Spy]

Also, the entire west coast has that whole "probably going to have a giant earthquake with likely accompanying tsunami sooner or later" thing going on. That may or may not be worrisome to you.

The Seattle area is protected from tsunamis by the Puget Sound, so all you have to worry about are earthquakes, volcanoes, and hipsters on unicycles.

[Knaight]

The Seattle area is protected from tsunamis by the Puget Sound, so all you have to worry about are earthquakes, volcanoes, and hipsters on unicycles.

Which sounds bad, but on the bright side Seattle isn't exactly in tornado alley, and while there have been forest fires nearby they aren't the terror they are in the southwest (New Mexico in particular, but as someone who lives in Colorado I can think of more than a few that come too close for my liking).

[sleepy hedgehog]

The Seattle area is protected from tsunamis by the Puget Sound, so all you have to worry about are earthquakes, volcanoes, and hipsters on unicycles.

And crazy drivers when there is any amount of snow.
I was told by everyone to just work from home, when it snows. (Which suprising rarely happens)

[kyoryu]

And crazy drivers when there is any amount of snow.
I was told by everyone to just work from home, when it snows. (Which suprising rarely happens)

Yeah. Snow's bad. It's the trifecta of people that don't know how to drive in it or are underequipped, lots of hills, and insufficient infrastructure to control it.

In most cases it's like once a year, at most, so it's not unworkable.

[Erloas]

Well things may have changed. Still planning on going somewhere else, but after talking to my cousin, it seems like he might be able to help me get a really cool job in California. I think the area is missing a lot of what I was specifically looking for and housing is really expensive, but it would be a really cool job.

[2D8HP]

....really cool job in California. I think the area is missing a lot of what I was specifically looking for and housing is really expensive, but it would be a really cool job.


Sorry (PNW has some great bookstores), and congratulations on the job.

Lots of Playgrounders live in California (including me!) so welcome aboard.

[Winter_Wolf]

Well things may have changed. Still planning on going somewhere else, but after talking to my cousin, it seems like he might be able to help me get a really cool job in California. I think the area is missing a lot of what I was specifically looking for and housing is really expensive, but it would be a really cool job.

Hope you did your math on costs vs income. I've known a few people who flat refused promotions because their adjusted pay would put them in a much lower standard of living while still having to be (juuust barely) in a higher tax bracket. I mean, I'm sure parts of California are nice and all, but just make sure of your game plan.

[Knaight]

Hope you did your math on costs vs income. I've known a few people who flat refused promotions because their adjusted pay would put them in a much lower standard of living while still having to be (juuust barely) in a higher tax bracket. I mean, I'm sure parts of California are nice and all, but just make sure of your game plan.

As far as just barely being in a higher tax bracket goes, progressive taxation matters here - the higher tax bracket here only applies to a tiny fraction of your income if you're just barely in the higher tax bracket at all.

[fire_insideout]

Come to Europe, we have castles!

[Erloas]

Come to Europe, we have castles!
That would be really cool if I could do it. I don't think it is practical at this point, but 5-10 years down the line maybe... Can I claim they like they used to? Put on my armour (it goes from armor to armour going from the USA to Europe) and invade, claiming it for my own. They probably wouldn't even notice if I picked one out in the middle of no-where.


As far as just barely being in a higher tax bracket goes, progressive taxation matters here - the higher tax bracket here only applies to a tiny fraction of your income if you're just barely in the higher tax bracket at all.
Yeah, the progressive part makes a pretty big difference. Doing some quick estimates vs the actual progressive the difference with what I estimate to be around what I can expect to make the progressive versus flat tax is about 33% different in the end result.

The job would be cool enough that I would probably take it for even a bit less than I'm making now, but I'm pretty sure it is going to be more anyway. I figure *about* 15% more would make up for the taxes and cost of living. The long term potential at this company is significantly higher than where I'm at now, which I don't think I've got much room to move unless I want to do something even less interesting with more stress.

I had a phone interview on Thursday and it went really well. Just waiting to hear back from them, hopefully some time this week, to see what the next step is, probably an in-person interview.

One other issue is that I have a dog. Do a search for rental places and come up with 4000 listings, narrow it to accepts dogs and it drops to 40. Half of those don't allow larger dogs, and quite a few are in the higher price ranges, so not much for a choice left. I might have to leave him with my brother, at least starting out...

[fire_insideout]

That would be really cool if I could do it. I don't think it is practical at this point, but 5-10 years down the line maybe... Can I claim they like they used to? Put on my armour (it goes from armor to armour going from the USA to Europe) and invade, claiming it for my own. They probably wouldn't even notice if I picked one out in the middle of no-where.

The castles will still be here in 10 years, so there's no rush! Not sure if you can still claim castles, but there's probably some law in some country which allows it :smalltongue:

[2D8HP]

I use this way to determine if a place is liveable:

Climate and how does the water taste.

I've found that the further from Highland Hospital in Oakland (where I was born) a place is, the worse the climate and the way the tap water tastes, so the crime rate, employment prospects, schools, and housing stocks need to be enough better to be worth it.

Also in general I avoid travelling anywhere that's more than two miles from a BART station, because there be wilderness with bears and dragons that may eat me, so best to avoid.

I worked the worst ten years of my life in the San Jose area (so I needed to drive, or transfer to CalTrans), it was just awful.

Too hot and foul tasting water.

Don't believe the lies about San Jose being part of the "Bay area". I went to the Alviso neighborhood of San Jose that maps show the shore is, and all I saw was weeds not water!

If you can't see the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge from the highest spot in town, it's probably safer to not linger there, though Seattle did have nice book stores and Portland has Powell's.

San Diego had surprisingly fresh air and a nice marine climate when I briefly visited, but Los Angeles has nothing to recommend it.

NOTHING!

As for other lands?

Bears and dragons, so not safe.

[Erloas]

So you just never want to move? Great that you like it there, but not much for a point of comparison...

This morning I woke up to rain, which isn't bad, but it was pretty much snow by the time I got to work.

I'm thinking that even with the bad LA traffic I probably won't have a much longer commute. It could likely be faster too. Even if it is longer it will probably be a lot shorter, so at least I can save a bit of money there. Probably not in gas, that will be a wash with the higher prices and that my car gets good mileage, but mostly in wear and tear and replacement, as I've put 100k on my car in about 5 years. I would essentially have to live outside of LA to match my commute in mileage, of course at that point my time would be much greater.

Still waiting to hear back. Not actually been that long, but it feels like forever when you're waiting for something like that.

[2D8HP]

Usually housing costs and employment go hand in hand though, cheap houses usually mean no work and high prices usually means the area pays pretty well, if not the market wouldn't support those costs...
Well things may have changed. Still planning on going somewhere else, but after talking to my cousin, it seems like he might be able to help me get a really cool job in California..
...I figure *about* 15% more would make up for the taxes and cost of living....


Hahaha!

*snort*

Ha!

"The market wouldn't support those costs"

That's cute.

(Now on the floor laughing)

In San Francisco we have people with jobs who sleep in tents on the sidewalk.

I've personally worked with folks who live in vans and have gym memberships to shower.

They see there children and spouses on weekends when they're not working overtime.

If you come to San Francisco, you will find a job fairly easily, but a place to live?

Expect to commute at least four hours a day after spending most of your income in rent and still having less space than you're used to.


...I'm thinking that even with the bad LA traffic I probably won't have a much longer commute...


Los Angeles, not San Jose or San Francisco?

Must be a very cool job

OK, it's been a long time since I've been there, but LA is much cheaper than SF and SJ, and the commute is a bit worse during rush hour, but weekend traffic is far lighter than SF (as I explained to my boss overtime pay is nowhere near enough to get me to every try to cross the Bay Bridge after 8AM on a Saturday, it's worse than Monday morning!).

The air and water in LA tastes foul to me, but the people are friendlier and the museums are nice, otherwise I don't know LA too well, nearby San Diego seemed really nice though.

Santa Cruz, and Santa Barbara are nice as well, but I would avoid Sacramento and Stockton.

With light traffic you can drive from LA to San Diego in less than two hours.

My aunt's husband (uncle in law?) was able to drive from L.A. to Oakland in just under 8 hours (so add 20 minutes to 3 hours depending on traffic to get to S.F.), but he drove like a demon to do it, more typically the trip takes 14 to 20 hours (western states are not as small as east coast states).

When I grew up, people in S.F. looked down on L.A., but folks in L.A. never noticed (my mom grew up in Orange County, which is near LA). There's also the "SoCal" accent ("Surfer dude", and "Valley girl") which I still find punishing to hear, but it now seems that the majority of Californians under 30 years old now speak with it!

Strangely when you go further north to places like Lodi and Stockton, you will hear what sounds to my ears like "southern" (Mississippi, Texas, etc.) accents, when you hear those accents (or Spanish) then typically the cost of living is less but jobs are scarce. Before 2009 I knew dozens of guys who would drive 100+ miles from Stockton to San Jose because they wanted to be "homeowners".

Speaking of Spanish speakers, when I used to work in the "walled city" (Palo Alto), I would see many riding bicycles to work before sunrise on the few open paths from East Palo Alto (yes there literally is a wall at the eastern border of Palo Alto!).

Some very big extremes of wealth and poverty are in California, I was particularly struck by the contrast between Atherton, with its huge "Downton Abbey" style homes on giant lots, and the next door mostly Spanish speaking modest community of River Oaks. My time spent working in "Silicon Valley" made me wonder when the tumbrills were coming!

[Erloas]

I said generally, not always the case. Especially places like California where people will pay a premium for the weather.

Of course I also didn't mean an equivalent place to live, just a place to live. I had a house that was over 3000sqft. Now I'll have an apartment that is 400-800sqft. The cost will be anywhere from -$200 to $600 of what I was paying for the house. Hard to say where I'll end up, having not seen any of the apartments outside of a few pics online.

Of course the upkeep and secondary costs of an apartment will also be a lot less than a house of that size.

[Erloas]

Well I've got a second phone interview coming up soon, maybe even this week.

Looked more closely at cost of living and really the only thing out of line is housing which I've already known. Everything else is pretty close. Gas is more expensive, but given a shorter commute and that my car gets good mileage I don't see that as being an issue. Checked that with Gas Buddy. And someone tried to tell me groceries would be a lot more but pulled up weekly ads online and it seems that it is pretty much the same or a bit cheaper. I would expect California to have pretty good prices on produce especially since so much is grown there.

Not sure where I want to go with housing yet... I just don't think purchasing anything is even an option at this point. But there seems to be some very nice apartments and condos/townhouses for rent and some that look ok but not great. There are also individuals with rooms to rent. There is going to be a big difference in total price then and I'm just not sure what is worth it right now...

edit: one other thing I'm not sure on since its been about 12 years since I've lived in an apartment, quite a few say high speed internet access... now that could mean they've got the wiring for you to buy it, it could mean they've got it in their community builds, and it could mean that it is included in each unit. Of course if it is in all the units it could also mean you've got next to no real connection speed... anyone have any clue on that?

[Xyril]

What are you into doing and where in California would you be? In some places, there's great public transportation that takes you further out enough that housing prices are something resembling reasonable. For a lot of people I know, commuting an hour or two to work isn't a major sacrifice because they can read or listen to podcasts, something they'd probably being doing for ten or twenty hours a week at home anyway. This is generally a viable option if you'd be working somewhere like SF or Palo Alto, much less so somewhere like L.A.

[Erloas]

It would be a tech job in... I think it is western Los Angeles, maybe southwestern, not sure how and where they make their distinctions. I'm not even sure I would say "close to" anything because I don't have much of a sense for scale for the area so it could be a lot farther than it looks. It seems reasonably close to LAX.

I think starting out its going to be an apartment, which shouldn't be that long of a commute. Once a year or two is down and things are going well I can look at finding a place.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Might be a little late, but might I suggest somewhere in Michigan? No ocean access, but a lot of lakes. Including most of the Great Lakes.

Definitely get four seasons here. Spring and fall might be a bit short, but they're there. And the winters usually aren't that bad.

Job market is growing here. Not sure what work you're looking for, though.

As far as I know, the cost of living here is pretty good overall. I think.

[Xyril]

It would be a tech job in... I think it is western Los Angeles, maybe southwestern, not sure how and where they make their distinctions. I'm not even sure I would say "close to" anything because I don't have much of a sense for scale for the area so it could be a lot farther than it looks. It seems reasonably close to LAX.

I think starting out its going to be an apartment, which shouldn't be that long of a commute. Once a year or two is down and things are going well I can look at finding a place.

The nice thing about L.A. is that it's actually not super expensive by California standards. Housing is expensive (but not Northern California expensive) and taxes are high, and that will have an unavoidable impact on the price of pretty much everything, but food is good and not horribly expensive (groceries and eating out), particularly if you're into ethnic cuisine at all. Public transportation is a joke, though, and it's very much a driving city, so commute time is pretty much 100% time lost.

[Peelee]

And the winters usually aren't that bad.

That's the dirtiest lie what was ever lied. My wife's got family up there. We went for Thanksgiving one year. Michigan fall was the worst winter I've ever experienced.

[KerfuffleMach2]

That's the dirtiest lie what was ever lied. My wife's got family up there. We went for Thanksgiving one year. Michigan fall was the worst winter I've ever experienced.

I mean, in the Upper Peninsula? Yeah. Bad winters.

But southern Michigan? Usually pretty good. I mean, yeah, we get a good amount of snow and cold. But it usually stays above 0F. And we usually don't get more than 6 inches of snow at once.

Except for the winter of 2013-2014...That was a bad one...*shudders*

[Peelee]

I mean, in the Upper Peninsula? Yeah. Bad winters.

But southern Michigan? Usually pretty good. I mean, yeah, we get a good amount of snow and cold. But it usually stays above 0F. And we usually don't get more than 6 inches of snow at once.

Except for the winter of 2013-2014...That was a bad one...*shudders*

Nah, the mitten. And "usually above 0º F" is cold comfort to the Deep South. It was 2012, so I dunno how bad it was that year. Pretty damn bad, far as I was concerned.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Nah, the mitten. And "usually above 0º F" is cold comfort to the Deep South. It was 2012, so I dunno how bad it was that year. Pretty damn bad, far as I was concerned.

That one was about average.

Yeah, if you're from the south, then any winter here is bad. If you're used to winters, though, then ours aren't bad.

The one I mentioned? We got colder than Siberia. Hell, we got colder than parts of Mars.

[Peelee]

That one was about average.

Yeah, if you're from the south, then any winter here is bad. If you're used to winters, though, then ours aren't bad.

I maintain that the trip was an assassination attempt on my life. If they'd have held off a year, it sounds like they may very well have succeeded.

[KerfuffleMach2]

Heh.

Well, visit in the summer, then. You can laugh at us complaining about the heat when it hits 90.

[Erloas]

LA wouldn't have been my first choice but the job would be cool.
Other thing I'm thinking about is a liveaboard boat in a marina. Would be a huge change but should be a fair amount cheaper and I really want a boat too. But getting a truck to pull a boat and a boat and a place to store them simply isn't going to happen in an apartment.

[2D8HP]

Heh.

Well, visit in the summer, then. You can laugh at us complaining about the heat when it hits 90.


In some neighborhoods in San Francisco (and some nearby communities like Pacifica) it's a good bet that the temperature will be in the 50's (Fahrenheit), day or night, winter or summer.

[Peelee]

In some neighborhoods in San Francisco (and some nearby communities like Pacifica) it's a good bet that the temperature will be in the 50's (Fahrenheit), day or night, winter or summer.

I've heard how "the coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco," but.... wow, that's crazy.

[KerfuffleMach2]

In some neighborhoods in San Francisco (and some nearby communities like Pacifica) it's a good bet that the temperature will be in the 50's (Fahrenheit), day or night, winter or summer.

I'd be okay with that. Not a fan of heat.

[2D8HP]

I've heard how "the coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco," but.... wow, that's crazy.


Naw, crazy is 50 miles away in places like Livermore where sometime every winter it gets below freezing, and sometime every summer it gets above 100.

:yuk:

Forget that mess!


I'd be okay with that. Not a fan of heat.


Preach it!

:smile:

[KerfuffleMach2]

Naw, crazy is 50 miles away in places like Livermore where sometime every winter it gets below freezing, and sometime every summer it gets above 100.

:yuk:

Forget that mess!

That happens every year here by Detroit.

[Peelee]

I'd be okay with that. Not a fan of heat.

The key is to mix it with humidity.

[KerfuffleMach2]

The key is to mix it with humidity.

I've had my fill of humidity.

[Peelee]

I've had my fill of humidity.

Philistine.

[Knaight]

I've heard how "the coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco," but.... wow, that's crazy.

I'm in Colorado, and while I prefer to keep my exact location at least somewhat obscured, suffice to say that I'm near a mountain range. If the worst winter you've ever experienced was a summer in San Francisco, you're lucky. We get winters with multiple feet of snow on the ground simultaneously, and I was up in the mountains hiking today amidst snow drifts eight feet tall, in summer. San Francisco's idea of a cold summer is questionable.

[Erloas]

We usually have a week during winter here where the high is somewhere around 0F. This year we had one day where we got to about -40F. Of course we also don't get very high highs, I think our record here is about 98F but 90s in general is pretty uncommon.

I don't mind the snow, but it is the snow in October and April/May/June that really gets old. And the wind, we always have wind. 30mph winds at 30F tends to be worse than calm days at -5F. And we have a lot of days all throughout the year where we're regularly in the 20-30mph range and gusts of 40-60mph aren't uncommon. I'm wanting to leave that more than the cold.

[Winter_Wolf]

That one was about average.

Yeah, if you're from the south, then any winter here is bad. If you're used to winters, though, then ours aren't bad.

The one I mentioned? We got colder than Siberia. Hell, we got colder than parts of Mars.

"Midwest winters aren't that bad." Lies. I'm from Alaska and winters were way easier up there than down by Lake Michigan.

[KerfuffleMach2]

"Midwest winters aren't that bad." Lies. I'm from Alaska and winters were way easier up there than down by Lake Michigan.

I find that both hilarious, and worrying.

[Xyril]

I find that both hilarious, and worrying.

It depends on what aspect of winter bothers you the most--how cold it gets, how much it snows, or something else.

To me, Boston's winters were the worst, even though it was objectively much more mild there than a lot of other places. It's wet enough to get a lot of snow, mild enough for that snow to melt, and erratic enough to freeze that melted snow into terrifying black ice before repeating the cycle, anywhere from October to April.

I've only been to Alaska once for comparison, but when I was there it was cold, but with a thick snow pack that you could actually get traction on and would cushion your fall on the very off chance you slipped. That's a much better winter by my standards.

[lio45]

Depends on where in Alaska you're talking about. It's a pretty large state. If you're at its southeastern point, the climate looks like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Rupert,_British_Columbia#Climate

which is definitely milder in winter (and a lot less snowy, therefore "easier") than the coldest places you can find in Michigan (like the Upper Peninsula).

[Erloas]

Well the second interview was today. I thought it went well but got a message after says they weren't going forward.

[2D8HP]

Well the second interview was today. I thought it went well but got a message after says they weren't going forward.


Sorry to learn that.

:frown:

[Erloas]

So going to start trying to find a new job. Preferable in the Seattle area, or western Oregon, but I'm open to other places, but still looking for the coast. In the electronics/technician sort of field. So anyone that happens to have linkedin that lives in those areas... send me a PM if you want.

[Balmas]

Hey, longtime pacific-northwest resident here. Having lived in both a suburb of Seattle and all around the eastern seaboard (New Jersey, Philadelphia, southern Delaware) there's just no contest. Washington has cleaner water, cleaner air, more beautiful scenery, more to do in terms of both physical and electronic activities, has more industry, more variety, cooler and less humid weather... I admit I'm biased, but why would you live anywhere else?

[Peelee]

Hey, longtime pacific-northwest resident here. Having lived in both a suburb of Seattle and all around the eastern seaboard (New Jersey, Philadelphia, southern Delaware) there's just no contest. Washington has cleaner water, cleaner air, more beautiful scenery, more to do in terms of both physical and electronic activities, has more industry, more variety, cooler and less humid weather... I admit I'm biased, but why would you live anywhere else?

Because less humid weather.

[Erloas]

Well going to see if I can change gears on the thread a bit.

Anyone have any advice on trying for jobs in an area you don't live in? Seems like relocation is always an option, but one that most companies prefer not to do. It always seems really hard to find a job in an area you *want* to go to instead of the area you are at (or if it is an area no one wants to go to they are always looking at relocation).

It is hard to tell at this point if I need a resume overhaul or to just keep trying. I had some other people look at it when I did it a month or so ago and they thought it was pretty good, but none of them are HR and don't see them a lot. It could be a poor resume, it could be relocation, it could be a lot of competition for the job listings, there is no good way to tell.

Of course as soon as you start going to the job searching sites I'm getting piles of emails for resume reviews and professional writing. It is kind of expensive, but well worth it if it would actually work. A guarantee such as "2x as many interviews in 6 months or we'll re-write it" doesn't mean as much when it is really easy to get twice as many if you've had very few to start with, and there is no guarantee the new one would be any better.

The other part of it is that I'm thinking about going into a different, but related field. It isn't so much different, as much of it is the same, but the focus of my job is going in one direction (and going more and more in that direction as I stay here) and what I really want to do is the other direction.

And the other thing I'm thinking about is going back to school (online) for a master's degree. I'm thinking that would help "reset" my experience a bit to move into the type of job I want to have as opposed to what I've ended up doing (end up doing by circumstance rather than trying to). It isn't a fast fix, but it is there, but it is also a bit expensive and if I do find a new job while I'm working on it it could be a big pain to start a new job, relocate, and take graduate level classes at the same time. And the deadline for signing up is the very first part of July, so not that long.
The other part of that is that I think I would rather do electrical engineering, but since my current degree isn't a full engineering degree I would most likely have to start by taking some undergraduate classes, which makes it longer and more expensive, and harder to get accepted. Or I could take Software Engineering without having to take any additional classes but I think my current experience wouldn't help as much there. I think both could lead to very interesting jobs, but it just seems like electrical engineering is more wide spread.