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bigbaddragon
2007-07-29, 06:01 PM
I'm about to do some mounted combat soon so I have a question:

Lance is a two handed weapon and can be wielded with one hand if you're mounted. So, if you are mounted and wielding lance with one hand do you add your strMod (strength modifier) to damage or 1.5*strMod and if you use power attack in the same manner do you get 2 bonus damage per point of BAB or 1 bonus damage per point of BAB.

Mr Pants
2007-07-29, 06:05 PM
I'm pretty sure that if you use it mounted and in one hand it uses all the rules for a one-handed weapon. So you add your str mod and power attack is on a 1:1 ratio.

Matthew
2007-07-29, 09:54 PM
As far as I understand it, that is indeed the case. The Lance can be used One Handed or Two Handed with the appropriate benefits and drawbacks.

Jasdoif
2007-07-29, 10:07 PM
Whether a weapon is considered one-handed or two-handed is entirely dependent on how it's wielded. If you wield a lance in one hand, it's a one-handed weapon, with the usual benefits of a one-handed weapon. If you wield a lance in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon, with the usual benefits of a two-handed weapon.


Most likely, the "can wield lance one-handed while mounted" is there to allow for using a shield alongside a lance in the jousting tradition, or simply to keep you from being unable to use your lance if you fail the Ride check for guiding your mount with your knees.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 08:12 AM
Appropriately sized Lance is Two-Handed Melee Weapon regarless number of hands used to wield it, just like appropriately sized Dagger is Light Melee Weapon regarless whether you use it with one or two hands. Effort to wield weapons only changes when you using Inappropriately Sized Weapons.

As Two-Handed Melee Weapon rules or Lance dont give any info what happens when it is wielded one hand, all normal Two-Handed Melee Weapon rules apply to it regarless whether it is wielded one or two hands. So lance gets 1.5*strmod and 2:1 on Power Attack even when wielded on one hand.

Matthew
2007-07-30, 11:22 AM
Er, what? That would mean that Bastard Swords used in One Handed also provided the same benefits. As much fun as that might be, I think you may need to rethink that in the context of a logical interpretation of the RAW.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 11:52 AM
No, as Bastard Sword is Exotic One-Handed Melee Weapon, it follow different rules than Lance. One-Handed Melee Weapon gets 1*strmod if its wielded one hand and 1.5*strmod when wielded with two hands. You can wield it with two hands as Martial Weapon, but that doesnt change it from being Exotic One-Handed Melee Weapon.

Two-Handed Melee Weapons dont have difference on how many hands you use on them. But as Lance is only Two-Handed Melee Weapon in SDR that can be used one handed, it dont matter much.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-30, 11:56 AM
The rules are: if you wield a weapon in your on-hand, you add your Strength bonus in extra damage and, if you Power Attack, deal 1 damage per attack penalty taken. If you wield a weapon in your off-hand, you add half your Strength bonus in extra damage and, if you Power Attack, deal 1 damage per attack penalty taken. If you wield it in both, you add the bonuses from both hands. Unless it's Light for some reason.

If you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, you only deal your Strength damage in bonus damage and get a 1:1 Power Attack ratio, because you're only wielding it in your on-hand.

You don't somehow become stronger just because your weapon's bigger!

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 01:14 PM
It would be *1 Str if you wielded it one handed. *1.5 Str if you wielded it two handed. It's addressed specifically in the official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a), page 43:



You can get a host of benefits from wielding a two handed weapon, such as 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage (and twice your damage bonus from the Power Attack feat) and a +4 bonus on your opposed attack roll if someone tries to disarm you. So when is a weapon “twohanded?” For example, a lance is a two-handed weapon, right? But you can wield it in one hand when you’re mounted. Since the weapons table shows that a lance is a
two-handed weapon, I get all the two-handed benefits no matter how I wield the lance, right?

Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of convenience. These size categories are always relative to the wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see next question).

When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a
light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed.

FYI, there's a simple magical shield property called Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated). With it, you can fight two handed and get the AC bonus from your shield. So there's really few reasons to forgo using your lance two handed.

Also, using a lance two handed with Power Attack from the back of a mount is one of the simplest and most potent ways to get a high damage combo, with or without Spirited Charge. I'm particularly fond of using a Halfling riding a medium mount, so I can do so underground with no attack penalty for squeezing.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-30, 02:16 PM
FYI, there's a simple magical shield property called Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated).

I know about it but my DM banned it before we even got the chance to take it :(

Matthew
2007-07-30, 02:19 PM
Good for him.

Nice find PersonMan. I should have thought to check the FAQ.

Droodle
2007-07-30, 02:33 PM
Good for him.Heh. I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who isn't exactly in love with the idea of the animated shield.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 02:45 PM
Saddly, Sages answer is clearly wrong in this case. SDR clearly states that only way to change effort to wield weapons is to use Inappropriately Sized Weapons. This means that appropriately sized Longsword is One-Handed Melee Weapon regarless whether it is wielded with one or two hands.

Rules on SDR clearly tell that there is diffrence wielding weapon with two hands and using Two-Handed Melee Weapon


Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon


So there is direct contratriction what Sage and SDR says. In these cases, RAW triumps over Sages aswerd according WOTC

Lances problem with RAW is that they most likely asummed that you must use two hands when wielding Two-Handed Melee Weapon, so they didnt wrote any rules what happens when you wield one with one hand.

Matthew
2007-07-30, 02:54 PM
First of all it is the SRD (System Resource Document). If you don't want to accept the FAQ clarification, that's up to you, but there is nothing illogical about the Sage's response or contradictory. The Lance is a special case, but there is nothing to suppose it will benefit from Two Handed use when used in One Hand, precisely because it is a special case. That same Lance used in one hand by a Large Creature would be treated as used. There is no other logical way to interpret it.

[Edit]
For an example of a RAW use of the Lance, check out Heroes of Battle, p. 111, Henrik Yensen, who is listed as doing 1D8+8 Damage with his lance One Handed [Strength (5) + Specialisation (2) + Magic (1)] and p. 143 for other Cavalry listings.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 03:12 PM
I know about it but my DM banned it before we even got the chance to take it :(

I understand the sentiment. I created a house rule that allows a PC to buy a magical helm, or bracers, or boots, or whatever, that costs the same exact amount as an animated shield, provides the same exact shield bonus (thus, it doesn't stack with other shield bonuses), takes up a magic item slot, and doesn't have the retarded fluff of a floating shield. You might want to suggest it to your DM.

Still, even if your DM bans animated shields or similar house ruled items, I would use the lance two handed. A Power Attack damage bonus of 2(BAB*2) is just too sweet to pass up, especially when it turns into 3(BAB*2) with Spirited Charge, or 3(BAB*2) with Headlong Rush, or 4(BAB*2) with both feats. And if you crit, it could go as high as 6(BAB*2). Maybe if you're a Knight and get extra shield bonuses, it'd be worth using one handed, maybe. Otherwise, the math is just too beautiful to deny.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 03:22 PM
But thats whole point, there are rules what happens when you wield Light Weapon one or two hand, there is rules what happens when you wield One-Handed Weapon one or two hand. But there are only rules when you wield Two-Handed Weapon with two hands. Rules are silence what happens when you get to wield Two-Handed Weapon with one hand, so i am making asumption that there is no difference with those two.

Anyway, SRD is clear that there is difference on wielding One-Handed Weapon with two hands and wielding Two-Handed Weapon. Wherter you believe me, its up to you.

Matthew
2007-07-30, 03:31 PM
Yes, and that point of confusion became a frequently asked question. The question was asked so often that it prompted Wizards to give an official answer. It is not a case of what I believe, it is the case that the issue has been addressed and clarified and can be shown to be the rule that is followed in other D&D sources.

bigbaddragon
2007-07-30, 03:36 PM
Actually I am going to be a knight sometime soon and I plan on using buckler and Divine Shield in conjunction to improve my AC.

A question to you Person Man: what mount would you use assuming that you have to be a human and that you can't use druids, dragons and other mightier than PC mounts? I was thinking of getting a horse via Wild Cohort and then training it to Warbeast and purchasing some item (this item were some horseshoes which I can't remember where I saw them) that gives your mount aspect of a Nightmare three times per day. The reason why I'm interested in it is that it gives 80 ft fly speed. So, any suggestions?

brian c
2007-07-30, 03:47 PM
But thats whole point, there are rules what happens when you wield Light Weapon one or two hand, there is rules what happens when you wield One-Handed Weapon one or two hand. But there are only rules when you wield Two-Handed Weapon with two hands. Rules are silence what happens when you get to wield Two-Handed Weapon with one hand, so i am making asumption that there is no difference with those two.

Anyway, SRD is clear that there is difference on wielding One-Handed Weapon with two hands and wielding Two-Handed Weapon. Wherter you believe me, its up to you.

Although I respect your argument, I have to say that I disagree. I'll be quoting the PHB v3.5 instead of the online SRD; should be the same text, but I happen to have a PHB in front of me.

(bold emphasis mine)


One-handed: A One-handed weapon can be used in either the primary or the off--hand. Add the wielder's strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon, or 1/2 his or her strength bonus if it's used in the off-hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's strength bonus to damage rolls

Two-handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon efectively. Apply 1-1/2 the character's strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.


... While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.


Notice the part that I bolded in the first section; a 1H weapon can be used 2H, and will get the benefit (namely, 1-1/2 strength damage). Normally, a 2H weapon can only be used with two hands; the lance is an explicit exception, allowing the weapon to be used with one hand. If using a 1H weapon in two hands allows for 1-1/2 Str damage, then using a 2H weapon in one hand should decrease from 1-1/2 to just even strength bonus to damage.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 03:48 PM
Yeap, and its hard go against Sage even when you believe that you are right about something. I dont just like his answer due way it interacts with other rules, like HP and Hardeness changes when you go from One-Handed to Two-handed. Maybe it just me.

Matthew
2007-07-30, 03:56 PM
It won't effect the Hit Points or Hardness of the object, since the kind of weapon does not change with it's method of use (otherwise One Handed Weapons used in Two Hands would follow the same rule). The point is that Damage Multiples are not the result of the kind of Weapon, but its method of use.

...Eh?
2007-07-30, 03:58 PM
Mounted, dual-weilded lances is one of the builds I've always wanted to try out one day.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 04:17 PM
Well Brian, it should decrease it to 1*strmod, but most of argument is that desingers didnt but any rules what happens when you wield Two-Handed Weapon with one hand. Rules just tell us that you get 1.5*strmod when wielding Two-Handed Weapon.

And Matthew, that i have said all along. One-handed weapons follow they own rules as do Two-Handed Weapons.

Matthew
2007-07-30, 04:28 PM
Yes, I know what you have been saying, but your logic is fuzzy to say the least. You don't appear to be universally applying the ideas that you are supporting, but applying them selectively. There is a difference between a Two Handed Weapon and using a Weapon Two Handed, which you recognise. However you do not appear to recognise that there is a difference between a Two Handed Weapon and using a Two Handed Weapon One Handed, but only in the case of appropriately sized weapons, since you recognise that Medium Two Handed Weapons used One Handed by Large Characters follow the One Handed Weapon usage rules.

All of this hinges on your view that a Two Handed Weapon has to become a One Handed Weapon to lose it's bonuses to Power Attack and Strength, rather than simply be used One Handed. A literal reading of the SRD supports that view, but it has long since been clarified by Wizards that a Two Handed Weapon used One Handed by a creature it is appropriately sized for does not gain the Two Handed Damage benefits.

None of that has any bearing on the Hit Points and Hardness of the Weapon, since that is determined by the Weapon Type, not the method of use.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-30, 04:34 PM
Well Brian, it should decrease it to 1*strmod, but most of argument is that desingers didnt but any rules what happens when you wield Two-Handed Weapon with one hand. Rules just tell us that you get 1.5*strmod when wielding Two-Handed Weapon.

And Matthew, that i have said all along. One-handed weapons follow they own rules as do Two-Handed Weapons.

Why are you even arguing this? The rules are vague. They in no way reinforce your viewpoint; they just don't say anything either way!

And the FAQ directly opposes your view, so, by the RAW (yes, the FAQ is RAW, as it's errata when it corrects a mistake with the rules), you're simply wrong.

tonihan
2007-07-30, 04:36 PM
Hmm, this is most likely due us reading Sages clarification differently.

boxboy582
2007-07-30, 07:34 PM
I've always thought of it like this:

A weapon used in 1 hand = strength x 1

weapon used in 2 hands = strength x 1.5


A 2 handed weapon (for your size) must use two hands so you apply the strength x 1.5 BUT the lance has the ABILITY to be used in 1 hand so it goes back to the strength x 1.

The logic for this being that you can generate your strength damage with one arm, but when using two arms you can add a little extra umph to it; thus the 1.5. If you wield the lance in one hand, you lose some of that umph.

As for a large creature using a two handed weapon in one hand then wouldn't it just go back to using 1 hand? Instead of thinking of a weapon as a two handed weapon or one handed weapon, just think of how many hands you are using to wield it.

As for a light weapon, they just don't have the extra weight needed to grant the extra umph.

I hope that makes sense. It is just my take on what the rules say.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-30, 07:46 PM
Hmm, this is most likely due us reading Sages clarification differently.

...the Sage's clarification isn't unclear at all. It says:


Wrong. Table 7–5 in the Player’s Handbook lists weapons as light, one-handed, or two-handed strictly as a matter of convenience. These size categories are always relative to the wielder’s size, as explained in some detail in the section on weapon size on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook (also see next question).

When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed.

Emphasis is mine.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 10:25 PM
First, the FAQ is very clear about this issue. And Matthew and Fax both know what they're talking about - often times more so then me, I'll admit - and I've been playing D&D since first edition (which is probably why I get confused sometimes). So there's really no reason to belabor the point.

Moving on...


A question to you Person Man: what mount would you use assuming that you have to be a human and that you can't use druids, dragons and other mightier than PC mounts? I was thinking of getting a horse via Wild Cohort and then training it to Warbeast and purchasing some item (this item were some horseshoes which I can't remember where I saw them) that gives your mount aspect of a Nightmare three times per day. The reason why I'm interested in it is that it gives 80 ft fly speed. So, any suggestions?

First, I would choose to be a Strongheart Halfling (Forgotten Realms). They lose their Save bonus, but get a bonus feat instead. A Small player riding a medium mount can go anywhere, whereas a Medium player riding a Large mount has to deal with squeezing penalties in many situations. Even if your DM doesn't use FR races, I'd still go with a normal Halfling for that reason.

But assuming you're going to be a Human Knight, I would just go with a regular Warhorse. You get the mounted combat tree as bonus feats. With Power Attack and perhaps a few other feats, you'll be dealing insane damage. It has been my personal experience that you will kill virtually anything you hit on a charge. Thus your mount will rarely get an opportunity to attack, and it would be a waste to spend anything on it. If you're worried about your mount getting killed and not having a replacement, just have your Wizard cast Phantom Steed (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsPtoR.html#phantom-steed). It's very fast, versatile, lasts all day, and is easily replaced. If he's a jerk about it, buy a Wand of Phantom Steed and have him activate it for you when you need it.

Now, if you were a Paladin, that'd be a different story. But a Knight need not waste a feat for a Cohort mount.