Dragonborn Dragonkin?

[Linic]

So I have a player that wants to play a Dragonborn Dragonkin, unfortunately for him, its ecl exceeds my +2 cap, he was fooled by the +2 level adjustment and forgot the racial hit die factor.

My question is would removing the racial hit die bring the race down to a legitimate +2 level adjustment and what all would adding dragonborn remove from the race?

[Venger]

So I have a player that wants to play a Dragonborn Dragonkin, unfortunately for him, its ecl exceeds my +2 cap, he was fooled by the +2 level adjustment and forgot the racial hit die factor.

My question is would removing the racial hit die bring the race down to a legitimate +2 level adjustment and what all would adding dragonborn remove from the race?

what book is dragonkin in?

[Linic]

First off I love Princess Mononoke, second it's in Draconomicon page 150-151

[Venger]

thanks, me too.

letting a player use dragonkin for 0rhd and +2 la seems fine, it kind of sucks, even for a melee guy

dragonborn causes it to lose its special powers, including rake and detect magic, so is probably not beneficial for someone who'd like to play dragonkin.

what kinds of special powers does your player want? does he just want to be a big strong brute with a draconic bent? if so, he's likely better off with dragonborn water orc. good str, good con, and no worthwhile abilities being lost for 0la and 0rhd.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, it's way too strong to be just +2 LA. Compare it to Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny to see what a large size +2 LA should have. He can just put Dragonborn on a Half-Ogre, use the wings aspect, and call it a Dragonkin.

[Venger]

No, it's way too strong to be just +2 LA. Compare it to Half-Ogre in Races of Destiny to see what a large size +2 LA should have. He can just put Dragonborn on a Half-Ogre, use the wings aspect, and call it a Dragonkin.

half ogre is a very poor trade for +2 LA. this comes closer to filling that gap (though it still fails of course) by giving a better strength score, but I don't think someone who took this is going to make up for being 2 levels behind.

that is a good idea too.

[Honest Tiefling]

Mind if I cut in and ask about the optimization level of this party? Perhaps you could inform us as to what the others are playing and what CR you typically use.

What is OP in one group will be hilariously under powered in another.

[OldTrees1]

Dragonborn(Heart?) Dragonkin is:
+8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +2 Cha
Large Size
Speed: 20ft(weirdly slow for Large) and Fly 40ft(good)
Dragonborn Draconic Aspect(Heart?)
7 RHD
+2LA

Dragonborn(Wings) Goliath is:
+2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con
Powerful Build (with a racial substitution level to become Large with rage)
Speed: 30ft and Fly 30ft(average)
0 RHD
+1 LA

The Dragonborn Dragonkin is stronger of course, but how much so? I would be willing to spend an extra 2 levels on the buffed size(no longer rage dependant) & flight(faster and more agile) in addition to the better stat buffs and extra Draconic Aspect.

So what about 2 RHD +2 LA or 0 RHD +3 LA?


Now the OP mentioned something about a +2 ECL cap they were imposing. Once we get an answer to Honest Tiefling's important question, then we could figure out how to adjust the race(probably with nerfs) so that it would fit as a 0RHD +2 LA race in your group.

[Linic]

Sorry just now seeing that I said a LA +2 cap.... It's a +3.....

A Satyr bard that's had their racial hit die removed, a Woodling human Summoner from pathfinder that we're homebrew converting over, a dark tiefling rogue going master thrower with extra feats to make up the level difference

The group works together and votes on everything to help make sure everyone is having fun and contributing their fair share to the team, this is our fourth character and we're having trouble agreeing on a way to balance him

[Telok]

As I recall half-minotaur is LA +2 and much better than half-ogre? Isn't half dragon +2 also?

[OldTrees1]

Sorry just now seeing that I said a LA +2 cap.... It's a +3.....

A Satyr bard that's had their racial hit die removed, a Woodling human Summoner from pathfinder that we're homebrew converting over, a dark tiefling rogue going master thrower with extra feats to make up the level difference

The group works together and votes on everything to help make sure everyone is having fun and contributing their fair share to the team, this is our fourth character and we're having trouble agreeing on a way to balance him

Well if it is a +3 cap then the Dragonborn Dragonkin (without RHD) should be close to a +3 LA compared to the other races in the group. I would suggest toning down the ability modifiers (+4 Str, +2 Con for example) and replacing the Dragonkin flight with the Dragonborn's Draconic Aspect(Wings). That should balance nicely with the rogue.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorry just now seeing that I said a LA +2 cap.... It's a +3.....

A Satyr bard that's had their racial hit die removed, a Woodling human Summoner from pathfinder that we're homebrew converting over, a dark tiefling rogue going master thrower with extra feats to make up the level difference

The group works together and votes on everything to help make sure everyone is having fun and contributing their fair share to the team, this is our fourth character and we're having trouble agreeing on a way to balance him

Keep it large size, keep the 20 ft. land speed, only keep the fly speed if he picks the wings aspect from Dragonborn.

Remove the +7 natural armor and the claw and rake attacks.

The ability score bonuses are higher than a Half-Fiend or Half-Celestial gets (both are +4 LA), so I'd reduce it to +6 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, at +3 LA. Keep in mind Dragonborn has -2 Dex, +2 Con, and removes the darkvision and Detect Magic.

Without any racial HD he wouldn't have any skills, feats, BAB, or base saves from Dragonkin, it would all be based on his class levels.

[torrasque666]

As I recall half-minotaur is LA +2 and much better than half-ogre? Isn't half dragon +2 also?
Off by 1 in both regards, just different directions. Half-Minotaur is a +1 (if there's a size change) and Half-Dragon is +3.

[Linic]

Thanks for the great advice everyone! I would like to reask what exactly the dragonkin loses when he takes dragonborn, I'm not very familiar with the template or dragonkin myself, but our tiefling and satyr believes it's everything but ability modifiers while the others think you keep your racial traits and ability modifiers. For the record the guy wanting to be a Dragonborn Dragonkin is the one who owns the draconomicon and races of the Dragon so I've only had a chance to look at them once or twice myself. Thank you all again for your advice!

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the great advice everyone! I would like to reask what exactly the dragonkin loses when he takes dragonborn, I'm not very familiar with the template or dragonkin myself, but our tiefling and satyr believes it's everything but ability modifiers while the others think you keep your racial traits and ability modifiers. For the record the guy wanting to be a Dragonborn Dragonkin is the one who owns the draconomicon and races of the Dragon so I've only had a chance to look at them once or twice myself. Thank you all again for your advice!

Take out your player's copy of Races of the Dragon, and look at the "Mechanics of Rebirth" sidebar on page 10. The short version is that a character retains:
Original type and subtypes, and gains the Dragonblood subtype. (There is some dispute here; Dragonborn racial traits say that type changes to Humanoid.)
Racial hit dice, level adjustment, and ability modifiers.
Size, including Powerful Build.
Speed, including movement modes (e.g. Climb, Swim, Fly).
Languages, and gain Draconic.
Favored class, and gain Fighter as a favored class, and can freely multiclass Paladin.
You lose pretty much everything else. So, vision modes? Gone. Special abilities? Gone. Racial bonus feats or skill points? Gone.

So, what does a Dragonkin have?
Ability modifiers, racial skill points. Keep those.
Large size. Keep that.
Flight speed. Keep that.
Natural attacks (claws). Those are gone. So's the armor bonus.
Detect Magic as a (Su) ability. Gone.
7 RHD. Ouch. Keep those. The +2 LA too. Wow, that's a 9th-level character already. At least you keep the feats from HD.
Favored class. Keep that.
So, basically, a Dragonborn Dragonkin keeps ability modifiers, large size, flight speed, and a total of +9 in level modifiers. Aside from the size (which you can get with a much lower LA price tag) and flight speed (which you can get either from feats, grafts, or simply by being a Dragonborn), all you're really getting for that total of +9 is a big boatload of ability boosts. Ouch.

As an aside, as DM, I'd discourage you from allowing things in your game unless you became more familiar with them. Not because players cheat, but because you want your rulings to be consistent and accurate, and that comes from being familiar with the rules, not from having glimpsed at them once or twice.