PF - The Golem IS the Wizard! - Best Golem to Play as a Wizard?

[unseenmage]

Having finally given up on my Iron Golem Wizard character idea in 3.x (waaaay too much LA) I'm looking to try again this time in PF and this time with whatever Golem works best.

That said, how would the Playground go about this monstrosity? Assume all PF material allowed, little to no 3rd party if we can avoid it, and starting at as low a level as we can. }
This would be for a playable character in a real life game if I can manage it, as an NPC in a game I run at the very least.

Would like to get as much of the original 'Iron Golem Wizard' concept in there as we can. Must be a golem, must go into prepared arcane casting aka wizard.

Thanks much to anyone who gives this a go.

[legomaster00156]

I'm not sure how you intend to make an explicitly mindless (INT -) race into a Wizard.

[Slithery D]

I'm not sure how you intend to make an explicitly mindless (INT -) race into a Wizard.

Awaken Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken-construct/).

[Zanos]

I think one of the versions of possession let's you do this in pathfinder. Craft yourself a nice golem body like a clockwork mage (4 arms for rods and ****) or a mitral golem for dex. Also potentially abuse the rules for improving constructs for hilariously high physical scores.

[Florian]

Just because it´s silly: A Guardian Scroll.

[Kane0]

Just because it´s silly: A Guardian Scroll.

Ship in a bottle? Living Wall?

Oh, a Clockwork Warrior might be a valid choice if you can't get an Iron Golem past the DM. Possibly an Iron or Adamantine Cobra?

[Particle_Man]

Would the android race be close enough for your tastes?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/android-16-rp/

[Sayt]

How stuck to wizard specifically are you?

With the +4 to a stat you get from bringing a monster with an elite array up to the standard point buy, a Fiend Infused Golem can be 14 Cha, for a Sorcerer, if that works for you.

[Florian]

Ship in a bottle? Living Wall?

Clockwork Spy with a clockwork familiar (monkey) to handle the spellbook?

Edit: A Mechanical Efreeti might win by pure cuteness.

[unseenmage]

Specifically looking for Golem, Magic Immunity and all. Golem and Construct not being synonymous.

And very stuck on Wizard. Or at least Magus.

[Psyren]

So go ahead and Awaken an Iron Golem, then use the Monsters as PCs rules. You are pretty clear what race and class you want to be, so I'm not exactly sure what the ask is here.

[unseenmage]

So go ahead and Awaken an Iron Golem, then use the Monsters as PCs rules. You are pretty clear what race and class you want to be, so I'm not exactly sure what the ask is here.
Am trying to figure out which Golem still lets a wizard build be viable, if any, and if none really are then which gets closest.

The char op parts of this game are difficult for me. What should take a few minutes takes me hours and I still often get it wrong.

So was hoping for help guaging which Golem was best at doing the thing.

My apologies fir not making that clearer.

[legomaster00156]

There is not a single non-mindless construct that is ideal for this. Whichever one you choose to awaken, you still have 3d6 INT (which, keep in mind, has a high chance of not even being high enough to cast spells), and that's the only stat that truly matters for a Wizard.

[Florian]

@unseenmage:

Ok, two simple things: Using the monster as PC rules, you directly count CR as being class levels, so a CR 5 Ice Golem Wiz1 counts as a 6th level character for all purposes. That´s limiting available golems to the low CR bracket. Awaken construct allows to add 3d6 Int, but would´nt let you alter the physical stats, so it´s possible that you´ll end up with a golem wizard that´s around PB15....

Edit: Keep in mind that you can´t voluntarily switch off an immunity, so a golem can´t use magic items that are not incorporated at the time of creation.

[unseenmage]

Makes me wonder, is 'Awakened Golem' different enough from 'Golem' to count as a different monster? Meaning, can that die roll for Int be turned into a point buy instead or do the Minsters as Characters rules not support such?

[unseenmage]

...

Edit: Keep in mind that you can´t voluntarily switch off an immunity, so a golem can´t use magic items that are not incorporated at the time of creation.
I was unaware that Golems in PF were immune to Magic Items. Where is this found?

[legomaster00156]

They are not, but any effect which is "SR: Yes", including many abilities imparted by active magic items, will not function.

[Florian]

I was unaware that Golems in PF were immune to Magic Items. Where is this found?

Unbeatable SR means most if not all magic items will fail to activate. It´s the same problem with archetypes, races or items that can´t lower their SR voluntarily.

[Psyren]

Makes me wonder, is 'Awakened Golem' different enough from 'Golem' to count as a different monster? Meaning, can that die roll for Int be turned into a point buy instead or do the Minsters as Characters rules not support such?

I would simply say that Awakening results in a CR adjustment, maybe +1 or +2. Gaining intelligence gives the golem several advantages (can use tactics and feats) and their immunity to mind-affecting remains intact. You would then plug the adjusted CR into the formula.


They are not, but any effect which is "SR: Yes", including many abilities imparted by active magic items, will not function.


Unbeatable SR means most if not all magic items will fail to activate. It´s the same problem with archetypes, races or items that can´t lower their SR voluntarily.

You're both forgetting the rule from CRB 565: "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities." Anything the golem wears or uses on itself will still work. It can even buff itself with magic.

[mistermysterio]

Maybe the golem just thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard) that he is a wizard?

[unseenmage]

Maybe the golem just thinks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?195049-Help-Me-Be-Annoying-with-a-Barbarian-Wizard) that he is a wizard?
I have played a character similar. A dual greatsword wielding, greatsword throwing fighter who was convinced he was a thief.
Because if he kills you and takes your stuff then he thief-ed you, right?

[Calthropstu]

Looks like your best bets are junk or carrion golems (both cr 4)

[noob]

He was entirely right.
Taking stuff from someone dead is still thieving.

[unseenmage]

So, is Shield Guardian worth losing Wizard levels over?

Should the Young or Degenerate template be involved? Or both? How bad will this character be hurting from losing Wizard levels?

[noob]

The template or the creature?
The template give fast healing 5 and a bunch abilities related to his master for +2 cr
Two caster levels is better than this template.
Shield guardian is dnd 3 and 3.5 only but can be put as homebrew in pathfinder.
But 8 cr is going to ruin your caster.
Your best bet is probably a random low cr construct or golem(the latter if you really want to be a golem) transformed in a robot(thus gaining an int value) or awakened.
A diminutive animated object which is then awakened have a good dex and small size bonus and all the construct traits(which are cool).
Then the diminutive awakened animated object can increase his int indefinitely with money.(unless I misunderstood the rules)
Ioun Wyrd is quite hilarious since you might possibly be your own familiar and you get blindsight and flight you get 3 int but for getting 17 int you just need 35000 gold.
Wyrwoods seems made to be a player race.
Alternatively take any creature you like and make of it a construct.

[unseenmage]

The template or the creature?
The template give fast healing 5 and a bunch abilities related to his master for +2 cr
Two caster levels is better than this template.
Shield guardian is dnd 3 and 3.5 only but can be put as homebrew in pathfinder.
....

Shield Guardian did get ported to PF. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/golem.html#shield-guardians)

[Psyren]

Actually, Wax Golem (B4 pg. 133) is probably your best bet - they are even lower CR (3) and can even become wizards without being Awakened at all. (Though if they achieve sentience on their own, their Int will be pretty low.)

[unseenmage]

Actually, Wax Golem (B4 pg. 133) is probably your best bet - they are even lower CR (3) and can even become wizards without being Awakened at all. (Though if they achieve sentience on their own, their Int will be pretty low.)
Was looking at them. Does their beconing sentient rewrite their Awaken Construct gained Int?

[Psyren]

Was looking at them. Does their beconing sentient rewrite their Awaken Construct gained Int?

Even if it does, just start with one that gained sentience and melt their face off so they lose the ability. Then awaken that.

[King539]

Hmmm... Be a normal wizard, make a Golem of some sort, then use Magic Jar?

[Florian]

@Psyren: I cited SR as an example, but that doesn´t compare to immunity. That´s a tricky beast, as it explicitly states you can't be the target of effects, with each golem stating the exceptions to this rule.
So, you could cast magic missile, but you can´t buff yourself with mage armor, as the immunity does not state an exception for this spell, and so on.

@unseenmage: Forget templates. Golems are created constructs following a specific formula that always result in the same "end product". There is no "young iron golem". You´d have to alter the golem creation formula and crate a variant golem from scratch.

[Psyren]

@Psyren: I cited SR as an example, but that doesn´t compare to immunity. That´s a tricky beast, as it explicitly states you can't be the target of effects, with each golem stating the exceptions to this rule.
So, you could cast magic missile, but you can´t buff yourself with mage armor, as the immunity does not state an exception for this spell, and so on.

Immunity works exactly like SR, except that it cannot be overcome. But you're not overcoming it in this case - it simply never interferes with your own abilities and items in the first place, per the quoted rule from the CRB.

[Florian]

Immunity works exactly like SR, except that it cannot be overcome. But you're not overcoming it in this case - it simply never interferes with your own abilities and items in the first place, per the quoted rule from the CRB.

Wrong source. Check the immunity universal monster rule - it can never suffer or gain the effect against which it is immune. Same with raw immunities conferred by creature type or subtype, a construct can never gain or suffer morale bonus, even if it was the source, like a wyrdwood bard.

[Psyren]

Wrong source. Check the immunity universal monster rule - it can never suffer or gain the effect against which it is immune. Same with raw immunities conferred by creature type or subtype, a construct can never gain or suffer morale bonus, even if it was the source, like a wyrdwood bard.

Your source is the wrong one. "Immunity" is a general ability, but the Golem's "Immunity to Magic (Ex)" is the more specific one and thus trumps; it states that it doesn't apply to any spell or spell-like ability that doesn't allow spell resistance. Spells cast by the golem do not interact with its own spell resistance, therefore they are not stopped, as noted under "Immunity to Magic."

[Coidzor]

Is there some way to make a Wax Golem gain that free level and also gain regular old sentience that isn't lost from fire?

[unseenmage]

...

@unseenmage: Forget templates. Golems are created constructs following a specific formula that always result in the same "end product". There is no "young iron golem". You´d have to alter the golem creation formula and crate a variant golem from scratch.

Check out the Building and Modifying Construcrs section of the PRD. There's this cool bit about building Constructs with prices based entirely on their CR.

That's what we use at our table.

[Psyren]

Is there some way to make a Wax Golem gain that free level and also gain regular old sentience that isn't lost from fire?

Make it fire immune :smalltongue:

No, the free level would go away, but as I mentioned you can burn it and then awaken it normally.

[Slithery D]

Hmmm... Be a normal wizard, make a Golem of some sort, then use Magic Jar?

Constructs are immune to necromancy effects. Greater Object Possession works, but you have to keep your body close. Build a variant of construct armor.

[Gullintanni]

How does Maximize spell (and by extension, Empower) interact with Awaken construct?

The spell says to rolld 3d6 for int, and 2d6 for Cha. Maximize maxes all numeric, variable elements of the spell.

Am I missing something, or is it possible to Max+Emp construct awakenings?

[Slithery D]

How does Maximize spell (and by extension, Empower) interact with Awaken construct?

The spell says to rolld 3d6 for int, and 2d6 for Cha. Maximize maxes all numeric, variable elements of the spell.

Am I missing something, or is it possible to Max+Emp construct awakenings?

If the spell grants a Int score and Cha increase, then you would increase them. If it just grants a consciousness, and as an outgrowth of that consciousness you get an Int and Cha bump (which are described in the spell description), then Empower/Maximize wouldn't do anything.

I think it's the latter. Similar to Earthquake and Irradiate, which result in variable numeric damage, but those are an outgrowth of what the spell does (create radiation or cave ins), not directly caused by the spell.

[Gullintanni]

If the spell grants a Int score and Cha increase, then you would increase them. If it just grants a consciousness, and as an outgrowth of that consciousness you get an Int and Cha bump (which are described in the spell description), then Empower/Maximize wouldn't do anything.

I think it's the latter. Similar to Earthquake and Irradiate, which result in variable numeric damage, but those are an outgrowth of what the spell does (create radiation or cave ins), not directly caused by the spell.

I understand that logic, and that's why I ask, but the spell grants a specific kind of consciousness.

It grants a form of consciousness that imparts 3d6 in and +2d6 Cha. Contrast with Awaken undead, which imparts consciousness in the form of 1d6+4 intelligence to mindless undead.

The conclusion I would draw is that because consciousness isn't a game term with a specific meaning, it is therefore a condition of the spell, and all dice rolled, as a result, are an extension of a condition defined wholly within the spell. I could see a DM ruling either way but the RAW is IMO ambiguous.

[Zanos]

If the spell grants a Int score and Cha increase, then you would increase them. If it just grants a consciousness, and as an outgrowth of that consciousness you get an Int and Cha bump (which are described in the spell description), then Empower/Maximize wouldn't do anything.

I think it's the latter. Similar to Earthquake and Irradiate, which result in variable numeric damage, but those are an outgrowth of what the spell does (create radiation or cave ins), not directly caused by the spell.

I disagree. If the variable is printed in the spell text and isn't a reference from another section of the rules, it's part of the spell and can be maximized/empowered.

You could just as easily argue that magic missile or orb of fire don't do damage, they create effects which themselves deal damage.

[Psyren]

I'd be fine with Maximized Awaken Construct.

Note that you'll need a Psychic, Shaman, or a metamagic reducer to actually do it though, as it's a 10th-level spell otherwise.

[Gullintanni]

I'd be fine with Maximized Awaken Construct.

Note that you'll need a Psychic, Shaman, or a metamagic reducer to actually do it though, as it's a 10th-level spell otherwise.

Sudden Maximize or a Greater Metamagic Rod would also do the trick.

[Psyren]

Sudden Maximize or a Greater Metamagic Rod would also do the trick.

There is no Sudden Metamagic in Pathfinder but yes, a rod will work. Greater rods are pretty pricey though.

[Gullintanni]

There is no Sudden Metamagic in Pathfinder but yes, a rod will work. Greater rods are pretty pricey though.

Woops - missed the PF tag. Fair enough.

[noob]

Shield Guardian did get ported to PF. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/golem.html#shield-guardians)
Except it did not really.
What you quoted was a template.
In dnd 3.5 Shield Guardian was a creature with 15 hd in MM1 and was not a template so that shield guardian was not ported.
I asked if you spoke of the template or of a creature and now it is clear that you was speaking of the template.

[unseenmage]

Except it did not really.
What you quoted was a template.
In dnd 3.5 Shield Guardian was a creature with 15 hd in MM1 and was not a template so that shield guardian was not ported.
I asked if you spoke of the template or of a creature and now it is clear that you was speaking of the template.
As I labelled the entire thread with the PF tag any confusion on this issue was entirely of your making.

[noob]

Usually people do rarely say "I will play as a resolute" or "I will play as a Vampire Spawn, Repeatedly Drained".