Scrolls: A Question

[shaka gl]

Can a pc use a scroll with a spell of higher level of which he can cast?
Example: Johnny The Beguiler is lvl 9. He finds a scroll of Permanency. Can he use it? Whats the DC? Does he have to pay XP? Thanks.

[daggaz]

From the SRD

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

So if you are a wizard, you can only cast from arcane scrolls... but luckily all the arcane spells are on your class list, so no problems there. However, you do need to be intelligent enough (CL of the spell +10) to even be able to try to cast it. If your INT is high enough, then proceed on the DC check above.

Btw, theres a thread for simple questions like this one =)

[SurlySeraph]

Yes. Your spellcasting stat has to be high enough that you could cast the spell if you were at a high enough level (e.g., a wizard with 18 intelligence can't cast 9th-level spells from scrolls). Also, I believe the DC of a spell cast from a scroll is the DC that the spell would have if the creator of the scroll was casting it. That is, the DC is fixed; it's inherent in the scroll, and the DC stays the same no matter what. Finally, the XP cost and any material cost of spells are paid when they are created, so you don't have to pay XP.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Also, I believe the DC of a spell cast from a scroll is the DC that the spell would have if the creator of the scroll was casting it.
No. The save DC is, as with all magic items, the minimum DC that the spell could possibly have. A wizard with 22 Int and Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) casts casts dominate person with a DC of 23. But any scroll of dominate person created by this or any other wizard would have a DC of only 17, as that is the minimum DC for a 5th-level spell.

[Amiria]

No. The save DC is, as with all magic items, the minimum DC that the spell could possibly have.

Not with all magic items, staffs are an exception:


Staff Descriptions

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/staffs.htm)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not with all magic items, staffs are an exception:
I meant to say that. :smallredface:

[Matthew]

Why is that, anyway? Would it break the game to allow higher powered Scrolls or is this supposed to be a balancing effect?

[Jasdoif]

Well, it certainly minimizes bookkeeping. "This scroll of cloudkill has a save DC of 20, this scroll of cloudkill has a save DC of 17, this scroll of cloudkill has a DC of 21...." Also eliminates needing to work the save DC into the cost formula.

[Ossian]

So, what about Use Magic Device? It's a bit tricky as it is explained. Don't know really how to make it interact with Spellcraft. Point is, with Spellcraft we're fine, and the Wiz. will go ahead with his spells. However, our Rogue has Use Magic Dev. (a puny +2, but maybe he'll bet more on that skill). So, fine with simulating the stats (INT or WIS or CHA) but what about the Mishaps? What the spellcraft entry says is that


"If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers"

Now, what about the Rogue using UMD ? Does he have the same chance of a mishap? And do I figure if he has NO arcane or divine casters levels?
On the same note, can a Wizard use UMD to cast a Divine spell from a scroll? And a cleric? Can he use UMD to cast arcane magic from scrolls?

THNX 4 the advice!!!!

Ossian

[Jasdoif]

So, what about Use Magic Device? It's a bit tricky as it is explained. Don't know really how to make it interact with Spellcraft.It doesn't interact with Spellcraft. If you succeed on the UMD check to activate the scroll (DC 20 + scroll's caster level), it activates. If it doesn't, nothing happens; and as long as you didn't fail while rolling a 1 you can try again right away.



Now, what about the Rogue using UMD ? Does he have the same chance of a mishap?No.


And do I figure if he has NO arcane or divine casters levels?The UMD check negates the need to have a caster level.


On the same note, can a Wizard use UMD to cast a Divine spell from a scroll? And a cleric? Can he use UMD to cast arcane magic from scrolls?Yes.

[Ossian]

Cool! I thought I had it figured out correctly, but honestly I wasn't sure at all. So, that's how it works, great.

Now, on an almost related note, I have 2 more questions: why would it be Charisma the stat for Use Magic Device? I suppose it has to do with your self-confidence and willpower, but it's really weird it's used to decipher a scroll or to figure a command word! A sorcerer or a bard wouldn't mind, but the Wiz? Poor guy is supposed to have chewed magic items since he was a baby!

This leads me to qst. #2: Why shouldn't UMD be a class skill for the wizards?Well, they do have Spellcraft, that's granted, which makes everything a bit easier (also with other mqagic items), and the Caster level check is not that difficult too (say 14 at the very most), but it's yet another chance to roll a 1. This way, a very Intelligent rogue, with a couple of ranks in UMD, would have an even easier day that a competent Wizard in figuring how to activate a wand or a scroll. Besides, even if we're not talking Arcane magic, why should a rogue be better than a wiz. with Divine Magic items? So, am I misreading or overlooking something? Point is, we have a Wizard5/Bard1 and a Rogue4/Fighter2 in the group, and the Wizard is complaining thatthe rogue (who is death incarnate with the sword, btw) is catching upo on him so quickly in arcane matters.

O.

[KillianHawkeye]

Wizards don't need UMD because they are already the masters of arcane magic. They can pretty much use almost any arcane scroll, wand, staff, or other magic item automatically (unless they're really low level, as with your scroll situation). They don't need any skill to do so 99.9% of the time in a typical game. The downside is that they don't really care about divine magic or divine magic items at all.

On the other hand, the rogue with UMD doesn't care what kind of magic it is. He is simply trying to activate any item through basic trial and error. This type of activity fits well into the existing skill system, especially since they wanted to give this ability to other classes. Thus, the Use Magic Device skill. The reason the two systems are not very similar is because the methods each type of character is using are not at all similar aside from the result, activation of the item.