Sorcerer / Ranger Multiclass ruminations

[Arkhios]

Disclaimer1: This isn't for me, but for my better half. She's not super into optimized or min-max builds, so please, keep that in mind if you come up with any suggestions.
Disclaimer2: I am NOT the DM for this character. I play alongside her.

I'm not very familiar with playing a ranger, so I thought I'd ask for advice from you, my fellow Giants.

The character is Variant Human Sorcerer at level 4, Storm Sorcery origin. Background, if relevant, is Inheritor (mostly with Hermit background traits, though)

Ability Scores:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 16

Probably relevant bits of information:

Variant human feat was Magic Initiate (Sorcerer: Magic Missile, and the cantrips I don't remember)
Careful and Empowered Metamagics.
4th level ASI was used for Ritual Caster feat, for Find Familiar because she absolutely wanted a cat familiar. (we have two cats irl, so you might guess why :smallsmile:)


The idea to multiclass came only recently and character rebuild is not possible. She wants to use a bow, so that would suggest Archery style when it becomes relevant.
We're allowed to use Revised Ranger UA, but for now, only Beast Master and Hunter conclaves.

The questions are:

Which ranger conclave would you say is best match with Storm Sorcerer becoming an Archer?
At which level should she take the first level, and thereafter how would you suggest the breaking points? I believe it's likely that she'll want higher level sorcerer spells at some point.

[MrStabby]

If I were doing this I would probably be looking to focus on something like ensnaring strike. With the sorcerer font of magic you should be able to pretty much cast this all day. The 14 in wisdom weakens this somewhat though. If familiars are allowed to make the help action for attacks then the lower dex is less of an issue.

If she takes another level of sorcerer first then she will get 3rd level spells - powerful spells and a number of these work well at higher levels. This might help ease some of the early level multiclassing pain.

If she goes immediately into ranger now she will pick up some good stuff but it will be a while before a bow is better than a cantrip like firebolt for damage. She will need the archery fighting style just to have the same or better chance to hit. On the other hand it brings ranger 5 closer with the extra attack. With the stats rolled and a low OP campaign it can work though.

For ranger conclave? Between beastmaster and hunter? Depends a little on rules interpretation. If ANY ASI can count towards the ranger's pet then beastmaster could be fun as it would also let her double back into sorcerer at higher levels. I would suggest hunter though - being able to pull a situational extra attack at level 3 of ranger will make waiting for level 9 and 5 ranger levels easier. Also she might be slowing down table speed a bit with a familiar, a beastmaster pet and her own character.

[Malifice]

Any reason why she wants to be a ranger and not an arcane archer fighter?

The latter sounds much more thematic.

Does it have to be Ranger or does she just wanna be good with a bow?

[Arkhios]

If I were doing this I would probably be looking to focus on something like ensnaring strike. With the sorcerer font of magic you should be able to pretty much cast this all day. The 14 in wisdom weakens this somewhat though. If familiars are allowed to make the help action for attacks then the lower dex is less of an issue.

If she takes another level of sorcerer first then she will get 3rd level spells - powerful spells and a number of these work well at higher levels. This might help ease some of the early level multiclassing pain.

If she goes immediately into ranger now she will pick up some good stuff but it will be a while before a bow is better than a cantrip like firebolt for damage. She will need the archery fighting style just to have the same or better chance to hit. On the other hand it brings ranger 5 closer with the extra attack. With the stats rolled and a low OP campaign it can work though.

For ranger conclave? Between beastmaster and hunter? Depends a little on rules interpretation. If ANY ASI can count towards the ranger's pet then beastmaster could be fun as it would also let her double back into sorcerer at higher levels. I would suggest hunter though - being able to pull a situational extra attack at level 3 of ranger will make waiting for level 9 and 5 ranger levels easier. Also she might be slowing down table speed a bit with a familiar, a beastmaster pet and her own character.

The Familiar is mostly just hanging along, more for utility, so it shouldn't really slow down the game too much, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, the rest of the party:
Human Paladin of the Ancients, obviously melee with warhammer, shield, and protection style (me).
Dragonborn Tempest Cleric, leaning on melee with his warhammer and shield.
Half-orc Underdark Druid. I'm not quite sure what's his schtick, except that he pretends to be a Plague Doctor (:D)
Wood Elf Archer Beast Master with a Panther. Another Beast Master might feel a bit "intruding" towards the other ranger, so maybe Hunter is the better choice.
Stout Halfling Monk of the Open Hand. A new addition to the group. Seen him once in action and he was quite an impressive damage dealer, so we're not in trouble in that department. I think.


Any reason why she wants to be a ranger and not an arcane archer fighter?

The latter sounds much more thematic.

Does it have to be Ranger or does she just wanna be good with a bow?

She's a "hermit", and leaning towards nature flavor, so I would say that ranger is slightly more thematic, but I think that the Arcane Archer isn't allowed anyway, so there's a slight issue with that.

[Solunaris]

I see no problem with jumping into Ranger if it fits the flavor of the character. But, it'll probably have the effect of making her character seriously fall behind damage wise until level 9 when she gets extra attack unless she is ok with leaning on her Cantrips until then.

The Low Dex doesn't help much either on this front, but it is less of a problem if she takes the Archery Style. I'd honestly recommend taking one more level of Sorcerer to get access to 3rd level spells to pick up something nice like Slow, Haste, or Fireball. A Beastmaster Ranger with Haste for that extra action is a force to be feared since the extra attack from Haste can trigger Two-Weapon Fighting, though less effective as a bow based Ranger. Since her Ranger save will be rather low I'd suggest leaving de-buff spells to the Sorcerer spells and focus on support spells for the Ranger side. She'll start with much higher slots than a regular Ranger would have so prioritizing spells that scale well from first would also be a great way to make up the power deficit she'll feel from the multiclass.

But if I can make a suggestion, perhaps she could look into going Druid? It'd allow her to stack the levels for spell slots (allowing her to keep up damage wise with careful spell selection) while holding the flavor of her character. In addition to that, Wild Shape might be a great way to make up for her less than stellar physical stats and then she wouldn't be stepping on the toes of the other Archery focused ranger. And, if the DM is willing, Subtle Spell + Wild Shape means bears casting Scorching Ray and Magic Missile.

[MrStabby]

A few good points here - so first the question.

Are we looking to help a ranger/sorcerer or are we helping to to change a sorcerer into a nature themed caster/Archer?

If the latter then maybe the Warlock UA might help. For a feypact bladelock they can take a bow and the invocation that lets them use spell slots to add to damage. Being able to take that earlier then extra attack will let the character still feel awesome and unique in a couple of levels.

[Arkhios]

Asking her if she'd like to multiclass into druid did cross my mind, but I'd rather that she came up with that idea by herself. And we did discuss about going to Warlock when the character was made and she quite explicitly said no to that, and I doubt that opinion has changed. Ranger multiclassing was her idea, and I'm going to respect that.

I suppose ranger represents her the "supreme survivalist" and it does kinda fit the character's flavor. The character comes from a long line of "witches" or "hedge wizards", all of which have gone to hermitage to attune themselves with their inborn powers, and surviving on her own was a defining part of her hermitage.
I'm just guessing here, but I guess her hopes to use a bow comes partly from that spells will run out eventually, and sometimes spells are not as subtle as an arrow can be. Plus, the rest of the party is very "Nature's Warrior" -like, so I guess it's also a bit of that too, to want to "fit in" thematically.

Her favorite spell as a sorcerer is Magic Missile (in fact, the character was initially built on the idea that she could cast Magic Missiles as much as possible - which she has been able to do quite well) and to be honest, I don't think that a slight fallback to a half-caster is going to hurt too much with spellcasting since she's likely to use Magic Missiles, if she's using spell slots. Of course, that might change after she gains the Ranger spells, but that remains to be seen. I think it's probable, that she'll agree with the idea of choosing mostly utility spells from Ranger's list, and not the ones with a save.

I guess it's more about helping a ranger/sorcerer to be as effective as possible in her chosen path. I'm 100% positive that she'll choose Archery Style.

[blurneko]

What about the Ranger does your player mechanically want?

If it is about the arrows, one could technically be a pure Sorcerer and reflavour some spells. Call Firebolt - "Searing Arrow" and Ray of Frost - "Chilling Arrow". You could even help this by letting your play find a bow to act as an arcane focus that empowers the 'cantrips' later on.

You also did mention that she doesn't care too much about optimising, so why not let her make decisions herself and see how it goes.

To answer your questions:

I don't even think you need a Conclave, a one/two level dip is enough
Might be nice to take that Ranger level at level 6 so that you have level 3 spells to work with

[Arkhios]

What about the Ranger does your player mechanically want?
I'm not the DM, she's a player in our group as much as I am. She's my fiancée and I'm just trying to help her make the character efficient enough. Honestly, I can't tell for certain what it is she wants, except for the Fighting Style at 2nd level, probably some ranger spells, and I guess there's this little thing that a ranger is especially good at: survival.


If it is about the arrows, one could technically be a pure Sorcerer and reflavour some spells. Call Firebolt - "Searing Arrow" and Ray of Frost - "Chilling Arrow". You could even help this by letting your play find a bow to act as an arcane focus that empowers the 'cantrips' later on.
Yeah, she's not up for that. If it was my character, sure, but I've played different editions of D&D for 15 years. She's played only very casually over the past 4 years. I know her well enough to say that she's not up for the reflavouring.


You also did mention that she doesn't care too much about optimising, so why not let her make decisions herself and see how it goes.
I did. And I am letting her make her own decisions. The whole ranger thing was her idea. I'm just trying to figure out how can I help her manage that decision through.


To answer your questions:

I don't even think you need a Conclave, a one/two level dip is enough
Might be nice to take that Ranger level at level 6 so that you have level 3 spells to work with

Yeah, it's possible that she doesn't even want to choose a conclave, and is only after the fighting style and proficiencies plus the things that come along the way until that point.

I guess the reason why I'm "bothered" so to speak, is that we have this "arrangement", she lets me worry about the minutiae of the character's build, while she's just primarily making the relevant decisions when needed and playing the character. Does that even make sense?

[djreynolds]

Old ranger beast master level 15 and shared spells coupled with 5 sorcerer.

When a ranger casts the shield spell his beast gets it? Could be cool

[Arkhios]

Okay, time for an update:

So, I talked about it a little with her this evening, and she would rather have only a few Ranger levels, although she'd want to get Extra Attack if possible. She also didn't want to have a Beast Companion, so that would mean her character will eventually join the Hunter Conclave.

With the Revised Ranger in use, I suppose NOT taking 6th level after Extra Attack that would be tad foolish, so in the end, her final "build" would look something like Sorcerer 14/Ranger 6. Which does kinda give us some framework to play around with, I guess?

[Asmotherion]

I am not experianced in the Ranger Class, but I consider myself a Sorcerer Expert, so I can mostly provide Sorcerer Advice, other than admit how awesome of a spell "Faerie Fire" is, and suggest taking it.

There are actually many breakpoints that are viable, but what you need to know is how she wants to approch this multiclass character? Does she want a Sorcerer with a bit of Ranger Flavor, or a Ranger with a bit of Sorcerer Spellcasting? Perhaps a good balance for both? How many spell slots (and spell levels) is she willing to sacrifice, and how much Spellcaster delay is she willing to take? A couple level dip delays your spell progression by only 1 spell level, but anything above that will make you less and less of a significant caster at any given level.

Sorcerer/Ranger might be viable, but it's not one of the super-optimised builds, like Sorcerer/Warlock... If you make a wrong judgment in your leveling, you'll end up with a mediocre character, and it can be frustrating playing a mediocre character in an optimised group... Anyway, consult with her, and find out what she really wants from being a ranger (and if it's really just the animal companion, as, from what you've described about cats, this might just be the case... I know, my wife has the same thing with cats, and usually spends more time RPing with her fammiliar than with the rest of the group XD).

PS: I just saw the final post, so, I'm upgrading:

I'd say not to take any Ranger Levels before level 5, since this is when the "big spells" come around, like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Counterspell etc. Having an AoE is always a good thing on a Primary Spellcaster and stoping an enemy caster from casting one can only save lives. Also, since she plans to get Extra Attack, I suppose she plans on a Melee Caster... Shocking Grasp and Scag Cantrips can be verry good in melee, and combine well with her 14th level Sorcerer Ability. My first thought would be not to take more than 2 Ranger levels (presumably to take two weapon fighting) 'till she hits Sorcerer 14, and turn Ranger from that point on.

[PeteNutButter]

So you're trying to get your girl to be viable while working around her odd choices. I've been there.

What you've got here is actually not too bad. The dex is only a tad lower than you'd like, but otherwise most rangers are better off leaving ranger after extra attack. She is just doing it a bit out of order.

She wants to be a ranger, no sense in making her wait. (3rd level spells are a huge boost, but she isn't an optimizer. She'll have more fun if she is doing what she wants.) Take ranger till she is done with it, and then back to sorcerer. Archery style puts her back on par to hit with her melee companions. She can quicken Magic Missle and still shoot at the same time. Fun and rather efficient, pew pew! By level 11 she can have haste up (twin it for you <3) and make 3 shots a round or 4 with horde breaker. Flame arrows is a cool choice too since she lacks a high dex. (Keep spending ASIs on dex, until its capped though.)

The mobility of storm sorcerer actually works pretty well with an archer. If she is into the storm sorcerer thing, she might like lightning arrow, but it would take level 9 in ranger.

Other concentration options:
-Hold Person/Monster are really effective on paladorcs when quickened for the follow up auto-crits. Not as great without smite, but it helps the whole team.
-Greater Invisibility, basically advantage to hit, and disadvantage to be hit
-Levitate/Fly effects against melee baddies

[MrStabby]

The trouble with working in quickened spells is that it will take 10 levels of sorcerer to get the next metamagic. This is 6 more than she has. Add that to the ranger levels and you are looking seriously late game before this comes into play.

[PeteNutButter]

The trouble with working in quickened spells is that it will take 10 levels of sorcerer to get the next metamagic. This is 6 more than she has. Add that to the ranger levels and you are looking seriously late game before this comes into play.

Ah my mistake. I missed the metamagicks... Well it's something to look forward to. The buff spells are still nice to have. Longer ones are better than though for sure, like flame arrows.

[Malifice]

Okay, time for an update:

So, I talked about it a little with her this evening, and she would rather have only a few Ranger levels, although she'd want to get Extra Attack if possible. She also didn't want to have a Beast Companion, so that would mean her character will eventually join the Hunter Conclave.

With the Revised Ranger in use, I suppose NOT taking 6th level after Extra Attack that would be tad foolish, so in the end, her final "build" would look something like Sorcerer 14/Ranger 6. Which does kinda give us some framework to play around with, I guess?

6th level ranger is good for favored enemies, but it also shuts down Sorcerer 15 (8th level spells). I know which way I would go.

She goes into Ranger and takes Archery style at 2nd, elects the Hunter path and selects colossus slayer at 3rd, then picks up Sharpshooter as her feat at 4th. She gets extra attack at 5th and bows out of ranger.


At Ranger 1 she'll be using her bow at +2 against favored enemies. She wont be very good as an archer at all. +5 to hit, damage 1d8+2
At Ranger 2 she picks up hunters mark, archery style and her effective caster level increases by 1. Now her arrows deal 1d8+1d6+2(+2 v favored enemies) and she'll hit a lot more often with +7 to hit.
At Ranger 3 she'll be dealing an extra 1d8 damage with her bow when she nails an already wounded target. 2d8+1d6+2(+2 vs favored enemies) at +7
At Ranger 4 things pick right up. Not only will she be able to cast 4th level slots, she picks up Sharpshooter and her proficiency bonus increases by one. She now ignores cover and disadvantage for range, and can use -5/+10. She shoots at +3 dealing (to an already wounded target) 1d8+1d8+1d6+12 (+2 against favored enemies)
Ranger 5 gets her extra attack. Damage is now 1d8+1d6+12 (+2 v favored enemies) at +3, x2 per round, dealing an extra 1d8 on the second attack.


Its far from optimal, and it'll be a long journey through those levels, but at least she now has the option of [quickened fireball or other blast spell] and then fire off two shots with the bow.

Once she gets back to sorcerer, she picks up Haste (its great on sorcerers who can quicken and twin it). She now snaps off 3 shots per round (in addtion to a quickened blast spell)

At Sorcerer 8 and 12 she bumps Dex up by +2.
__________________________________________________ __________

I still reckon Feypact Sorcerer with that Moonbow thing would be ideal (and far more optimal), but she's sworn off that so I guess its a no go.

[Arkhios]

Lots of good points above.
Although, I do have one concern. In a campaign I run, she has a rogue with Sharpshooter, and she's quite reluctant to use the -5/+10 option - the reason being that she prefers to have high To Hit chance rather than a huge penalty to it. Even if that penalty would mean a massive boost to damage. I understand that though. In my opinion the penalty is rather steep; I've been thinking about slightly altering the feat to gradually increase the penalty and bonus, depending on the character's proficiency bonus ...but I digress. The bottomline is that I doubt she would want Sharpshooter on this character. She's always played a ranged character, so even though we made the sorcerer for her, I gathered that she's found the character somewhat lacking ...of options, I suppose, which the Ranger levels would give to her.
(One more thing, although it didn't come up yet: It took quite a lot of time and investment to create the character (including her background and story) so I doubt she would just want to make a completely new character just because of some afterthoughts)

I've been mulling over the breaking points, and I agree with PeteNutButter that she should definitely go into ranger immediately at 5th character level. Spellwise she won't be far behind our ranger and paladin, since she does have 2nd level slots after all. And it's only going to matter for one level anyway, since at 2nd ranger level she would gain 3rd level slots as well as Archery Fighting Style.
Furthermore, I think she should take 4 ranger levels up front for the ASI (which I'd suggest using for Dex +2), then take the 5th sorcerer level at 9th character level. My reasoning being that she's still primarily a sorcerer, and compared to ranger for example, at 9th character level she would have access to 3rd level spells at exact same time as the ranger does, attaining equal spellcasting progression at that point.
After Sorcerer 5, she should take the Ranger 5 for Extra Attack and 2nd level ranger spells. At this point she's approximately equal with both the Ranger and the Paladin with her attacks and spells. The only big difference being her hit points.

After that, continue with Sorcerer, and instead of increasing Dexterity further (I truly think that 16 is going to be just fine), increase Charisma to make her Sorcerer spells more powerful, since - after all - she is still primarily a sorcerer.


I still reckon Feypact Sorcerer with that Moonbow thing would be ideal (and far more optimal), but she's sworn off that so I guess its a no go.

Also, the Revised Ranger is literally the only Unearthed Arcana character class option that's allowed in this campaign, so even if she wanted to, Moonbow would be out of her reach.

[8wGremlin]

Pity you can't ask the DM to allow, Favoured Soul, but taking Druid spells.

That could make her feel very 'nature witch', and as someone else has pointed out, using a bow as an arcane focus.
It's what I've done for one of my players.

But I doubt that will fly with your DM or group, but it's a suggestion.


link to pdf of shamanic soul, (favoured soul refluff) http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Byp6Mnbae

[Arkhios]

Pity you can't ask the DM to allow, Favoured Soul, but taking Druid spells.

That could make her feel very 'nature witch', and as someone else has pointed out, using a bow as an arcane focus.
It's what I've done for one of my players.

But I doubt that will fly with your DM or group, but it's a suggestion.


link to pdf of shamanic soul, (favoured soul refluff) http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Byp6Mnbae


In fact, the sorcerer used to be Favored Soul at first, with the Nature Domain. Then, for whatever reason, DM chose to pull the option back (as is his right as a DM; I guess he thought it was too strong or something). Using the bow as an arcane focus might be a bit too far fetched even to ask such a thing. Then again, I doubt she'd want one anyway, since she has a family heirloom which is a garnet socketed in the tip of a staff, which in turn is her arcane focus. The character is born of a long lineage which can trace their origins back to the children of two goddesses, Melora and Sehanine, the deities of the moon, the wilderness, and seas. Storm Sorcery comes from that lineage, and it's actually quite thematic.


I've seen your Shamanic Soul before, and I must commend you for how well it's reflavoured. If it was up to me, I'd definitely allow it, but I can't tell if my fiancée would want to use that.

[djreynolds]

We allowed our monk to use a staff/bow and staff/sling in one session... its not game breaking or overpowering... could solve your problems. Give the ranger a staff/bow.

See, I like the ranger/sorcerer idea

Both have known spells
Both could be considered loner types, or least eschewing main society
Both would have animal buddies

Now druids IMO are different, than ranger or sorcerer, IMO druid isn't a break from society as much as they exist as one with nature... strange thought

Your cantrips scale, so she could go melee and shocking grasp is very good in melee

I like the idea of that UA guardian here with the storm sorcerer... it works, you can still use a bow and have the option later on to do other stuff

But what I would do, is this. Have her use fire bolt and have the staff/bow as the arcane focus... basically shooting 1 powerful bolt/arrow from her "bow"

[Arkhios]

We allowed our monk to use a staff/bow and staff/sling in one session... its not game breaking or overpowering... could solve your problems. Give the ranger a staff/bow.
I would if I could. But I'm not the DM in the game where she has this sorcerer-would-be-ranger, so I'm helpless on that regard. And the DM is strictly against reflavoring stuff when it would mean even a slight change to mechanics.
A staff that's curved like a bow? That's fine.
A staff that's curved like a bow and has a string stressed from tip to tip? Nope, not a chance. Why? Because it changes the staff's mechanics from just a melee weapon to both melee and ranged weapon.
I've talked about similar matters with him on several occasions, but he only gets sort of anxious and frustrated if I ask about something like that again. His defense has been that he feels uneasy about the repercussions of toying around with game's balance, which he claims he doesn't have much of an opinion; in other words, he kinda refuses to even try and make sense of the bits that make up the balance, and would prefer rules as written as much as possible. In my personal opinion, I think I have a better grasp on how to balance things than he does, but I'm not an expert, and it's still just my opinion. It's just rather pity that he doesn't trust my judgment in these matters. Besides, if my education is of any worth, I study Game Design & Development. He doesn't. I honestly believe that I have at least some leverage here.


I like the idea of that UA guardian here with the storm sorcerer... it works, you can still use a bow and have the option later on to do other stuff
Again, no other UA is allowed, except revised ranger, and even for that, only the Beast and Hunter Conclaves, which is kind of a pity.


But what I would do, is this. Have her use fire bolt and have the staff/bow as the arcane focus... basically shooting 1 powerful bolt/arrow from her "bow"
I might suggest this, but I have a feeling it's not enough.

[djreynolds]

We had a warlock in our party, he played basically BUZZ LIGHTYEAR. His eldritch blast was his ray gun. He really thought he was from another dimension and played as so.His flight ability, from a game mechanic was the spell, but he thought it was his metal space wings.

But really she could use her staff as her arcane focus and her firebolt as the bow shot, like in the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon,
and you pull back on an imaginary string on the staff and it shoots a firebolt, no different from someone using a wand

The ranger/sorcerer class is really not optimized, its for fun. It sounds fun and in the end, that why you are playing.

I know the game mechanics help to ground us in this fantasy world but a ranger/sorcerer with all the ability requirements is far from overpowering.

I like the idea of a storm sorcerer and archer, you could use a bow from distance and use shocking grasp in melee which goes along with the storm sorcerer feel. Lighting lure and thunder clap are cool and thematic.

The thing is tying together tempestuous magic because it requires a 1st level spell be casted before or after you the bonus action to flyup

So chromatic orb (lightning or thunder) and thunder wave works as does ice knife are all thematic.

Hail of thorns is 1st level spell, it uses a bonus action to cast initially but it lasts 1 minute. Now IMO the magic of the spell is used when you actually shoot the arrow. So in theory she could cast this in the beginning of battle, wade into melee then gain/and use a bonus action from tempestuous magic which flies you up 10ft in the air and then shoot of hail of thorns without disadvantage.

You couldn't do it every round but it could be cool