Sorcerer 20 or Sorcerer 18|Paladin 2

[Jewrrick]

Sorcerer saves are atrocious, even with +5 resistance bonus. Is dipping 2 levels of paladin worth losing 9th level casting?

[legomaster00156]

You will not lose L9 spells, but you will get them only at level 20. It's a tough choice, and you're losing CL, as well. On the other hand, of course, Divine Grace is astounding. Sorcadin builds are popular with good reason. Ultimately, it depends on just how much you, personally, want that +CHA to all saving throws.

[The_Jette]

Sorcerer saves are atrocious, even with +5 resistance bonus. Is dipping 2 levels of paladin worth losing 9th level casting?

Sorcerer gets 9th level spells at 18th level, so you wouldn't be losing anything more than a few spells per day. Of course, it depends on what level you take Paladin at. If you take Paladin first, you won't get 9th level spells until 20th level. But, if you take them last, you'll have to survive that whole time without the Charisma modifier to your saves. I mean, +5 (I'm assuming you'll have at least a 20 Cha by level 20) is a nice boost to your saves, not to mention boosting up your Fort save a bit. So, do you want poor saves longer, or your slow spell progression to slow even more?

[Elkad]

You drop from 6x8th, 6x9th to 5 and 3 respectively. Plus a couple bonus spells on each from Cha of course. For +10 or more to all saves.

That isn't the end of the world. Of course WHEN you do it matters. If it's a skip-to-20th level build, it's harmless. Delaying access to higher level spells if you are playing through is a different matter.

[Kurald Galain]

That isn't the end of the world. Of course WHEN you do it matters. If it's a skip-to-20th level build, it's harmless. Delaying access to higher level spells if you are playing through is a different matter.

Precisely. Your gameplay (probably) won't start at level 20. Over your entire career, you'll be getting everything two levels late. That makes a difference.

[Jewrrick]

You will not lose L9 spells, but you will get them only at level 20. It's a tough choice, and you're losing CL, as well. On the other hand, of course, Divine Grace is astounding. Sorcadin builds are popular with good reason. Ultimately, it depends on just how much you, personally, want that +CHA to all saving throws.


Sorcerer gets 9th level spells at 18th level, so you wouldn't be losing anything more than a few spells per day. Of course, it depends on what level you take Paladin at. If you take Paladin first, you won't get 9th level spells until 20th level. But, if you take them last, you'll have to survive that whole time without the Charisma modifier to your saves. I mean, +5 (I'm assuming you'll have at least a 20 Cha by level 20) is a nice boost to your saves, not to mention boosting up your Fort save a bit. So, do you want poor saves longer, or your slow spell progression to slow even more?


You drop from 6x8th, 6x9th to 5 and 3 respectively. Plus a couple bonus spells on each from Cha of course. For +10 or more to all saves.

That isn't the end of the world. Of course WHEN you do it matters. If it's a skip-to-20th level build, it's harmless. Delaying access to higher level spells if you are playing through is a different matter.

We are starting at 20th.

I forgot to mention that I was taking cross-blooded for the build.

[WeaselGuy]

IMO, if you're gonna go Sorcadin, you had might as well go for a gish build. Use the usual's, such as Abjurant Champion 5, Dragonslayer 1, Spellsword 1, and maybe like, Sacred Exorcist or something similar to top off.

CG Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin of Freedom 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7 gets you CL17 and BAB 16. Dragonwrought for your level 1 feat, Combat Casting at level 3, Dodge at 6, buy Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole for 3k gp. After that, Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Weapon Finesse (you're a Kobold with a str penalty), Arcane Preparation (for the Luminous Armor spell), maybe some Reserve Feats if you have room. More information can be found in this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook), I just cherry picked some of the good stuff to get you going in the right direction.

[Manyasone]

IMO, if you're gonna go Sorcadin, you had might as well go for a gish build. Use the usual's, such as Abjurant Champion 5, Dragonslayer 1, Spellsword 1, and maybe like, Sacred Exorcist or something similar to top off.

CG Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Paladin of Freedom 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7 gets you CL17 and BAB 16. Dragonwrought for your level 1 feat, Combat Casting at level 3, Dodge at 6, buy Iron Will from the Otyugh Hole for 3k gp. After that, Versatile Spellcaster, Arcane Strike, Weapon Finesse (you're a Kobold with a str penalty), Arcane Preparation (for the Luminous Armor spell), maybe some Reserve Feats if you have room. More information can be found in this guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook), I just cherry picked some of the good stuff to get you going in the right direction.

Pathfinder, dude

[Zanos]

More relevant to Sorcerer is losing the high level spells known, rather than spells per day. Losing an 8th and two 9ths known does actually hurt.

Isn't there a feat you can take in Pathfinder that gives Charisma to saving throws?

[WeaselGuy]

Pathfinder, dude

Huh. Somehow I missed that Pathfinder tag when I first opened the thread. Which is weird, cause I don't know jack about PF, and therefor rarely read any PF threads.

[The_Jette]

Arcane Bloodline might be a good choice to pad your spells known a little bit. And, the Martyred bloodline is a good one for Sor/Pal characters. The ability gives you temp CL boost when you take damage. Just a thought.

[Thunder999]

If you're going crossblooded you're already losing spells, you absolutely cannot afford to multiclass, two levels of paladin mean no 9th level spells, and no amount of save bonus is worth losing 9th level spells, you also really don't want to lose the spells known at 8th level. You also lose your level 19 bloodline feat and 20th level power, and while normally losing your capstone isn't an issue, this is a level 20 campaign so getting a good capstone is actually important, though a robe of arcane heritage will fix that. Even if you ditch the crossblooded you still lose out on a bloodline spell, so you'd have 9th level spell instead of 4, super not worth it. If you're that worried about your saves than use tomes (or if you can get away with it, free wishes from a bound outsider or simulacrum) to boost your relevant ability scores just for the save boost, grab a stone of good luck for another +1. Burn feats on things like iron will if it's that bad, it's better than giving up sorcerer levels.

[The_Jette]

If you're going crossblooded you're already losing spells, you absolutely cannot afford to multiclass, two levels of paladin mean no 9th level spells, and no amount of save bonus is worth losing 9th level spells, you also really don't want to lose the spells known at 8th level. You also lose your level 19 bloodline feat and 20th level power, and while normally losing your capstone isn't an issue, this is a level 20 campaign so getting a good capstone is actually important, though a robe of arcane heritage will fix that. Even if you ditch the crossblooded you still lose out on a bloodline spell, so you'd have 9th level spell instead of 4, super not worth it. If you're that worried about your saves than use tomes (or if you can get away with it, free wishes from a bound outsider or simulacrum) to boost your relevant ability scores just for the save boost, grab a stone of good luck for another +1. Burn feats on things like iron will if it's that bad, it's better than giving up sorcerer levels.

Okay, I've looked over the crossblooded ability repeatedly and still can't find where it says you get spells slower, or lose any spell slots of a higher level. You lose a spell known of each level, but there are ways of adding spells to your spell list. So, is that what you guys are referring to; or is it something else?

[zergling.exe]

Okay, I've looked over the crossblooded ability repeatedly and still can't find where it says you get spells slower, or lose any spell slots of a higher level. You lose a spell known of each level, but there are ways of adding spells to your spell list. So, is that what you guys are referring to; or is it something else?

I believe it's because 1 9th know at level 18 is reduced to 0 due to learning once less of each level. There are ways to get additional spells known as you noted, and you still have your 9th level slots, so it's not equivalent to not getting them at all.

[Jewrrick]

by making a few adjustments to items and feats I was able to afford 2 9th level Pages of Spell Knowledge. This gives me the two spell known that I lost, and I can still cast 4 9th level spells per day.

[Calthropstu]

If you are going to be LG, you can simply put ranks into UMD and pick up wands of Bestow grace of the champion. They're expensive, but well worth it.
You can also make a custom magic item with that spell "always on" for 112k, less if you restrict it to LG, (which it is by nature of the spell anyways.)

[Yogibear41]

I'd vote Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 over Sorcerer 20, but I've always been a more defensive oriented player as opposed to a glass cannon player, in my mind if the enemy can't kill you, you've already won, so what if it takes a few extra rounds to finish them off?

[Calthropstu]

I'd vote Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 over Sorcerer 20, but I've always been a more defensive oriented player as opposed to a glass cannon player, in my mind if the enemy can't kill you, you've already won, so what if it takes a few extra rounds to finish them off?

Like I said, the magic item I mentioned gives you the saves he is looking for. There is literally no other reason to go paladin, so forking out 110k is much better than dropping 2 levels and not getting the amazing abilities that lvl 20 sorc gives you.

[Particle_Man]

You might consider paladin 2/sorcerer 8/dragon disciple 10, taking the prestigious spellcaster feat enough times to make up for the sorcerer levels the DD costs (you can't make up for the spellcaster levels lost due to being a paladin, barring a trait that at least gives you caster level if not extra spells). That gives you some GISHy goodness.

If you hate the draconic bloodline, you could do something similar with eldritch knight.

[zergling.exe]

You might consider paladin 2/sorcerer 8/dragon disciple 10, taking the prestigious spellcaster feat enough times to make up for the sorcerer levels the DD costs (you can't make up for the spellcaster levels lost due to being a paladin, barring a trait that at least gives you caster level if not extra spells). That gives you some GISHy goodness.

If you hate the draconic bloodline, you could do something similar with eldritch knight.

Unless they released an FAQ or something not on the SRD, you can only make up one lost spellcaster level, though you can make up as many lost caster levels as you want. So taking 10 levels of dragon disciple would drop your spellcaster level by another 2.

[Particle_Man]

That is debated on the pathfinder boards, so the OP should check with the DM. My reading is that you get full spellcasting, spell slots, spells known, with each application of the prestigious spellcaster feat.

[zergling.exe]

That is debated on the pathfinder boards, so the OP should check with the DM. My reading is that you get full spellcasting, spell slots, spells known, with each application of the prestigious spellcaster feat.

What's there to debate? The benefits section says "The first time you gain a level in your favored prestige class and the spells per day class feature does not grant an increase in effective level for the purpose of casting spells, you gain new spells per day as if the prestige class did grant +1 level of spellcasting for that level." and the special section says "You can select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat multiple times. Each time you select the Prestigious Spellcaster feat, your effective caster level increases by 1." They clearly refer to different things that make taking the feat more than once not increase spellcaster level.

[Particle_Man]

Here is a previous thread on the topic. The consensus was the opposite of what you think is the obvious answer.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512501-Prestigious-Spellcaster-feat-woah-what!

And here is something from the pathfinder rules forums. The developer (James Jacobs) answering the question also intends the opposite of what you think is the obvious answer.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7dt?Prestigious-Spellcaster-Feat-Questions#1

[Jewrrick]

If you are going to be LG, you can simply put ranks into UMD and pick up wands of Bestow grace of the champion. They're expensive, but well worth it.
You can also make a custom magic item with that spell "always on" for 112k, less if you restrict it to LG, (which it is by nature of the spell anyways.)




I ended up going with Bestow Grace, on a cloak of resistance. Cost me quite a bit, but it allowed me to go back to full spell casting AND get +12 to saves.

[Calthropstu]

I ended up going with Bestow Grace, on a cloak of resistance. Cost me quite a bit, but it allowed me to go back to full spell casting AND get +12 to saves.

But it was probably less than 2 pages of 9th lvl spell knowledges.

[Jewrrick]

But it was probably less than 2 pages of 9th lvl spell knowledges.

You are correct!

[Jewrrick]

Bringing this back to the top. Looking for a way to spend about 40,000gp. Here is a list of what I already have.




Combat Gear boots of escape[ARG], boots of escape[ARG], boots of escape[ARG],
greater acid elemental metamagic rod[APG],
greater focused metamagic rod[APG],
greater persistent metamagic rod[APG],
greater silent metamagic rod,
hand of glory,
jingasa of the fortunate soldier[UE],
mnemonic vestment[UE],
penumbra tattoo,
ring of invisibility,
spellguard bracers[UE];

celestial armor,
+3 improved cold resistance moderate fortification mithral buckler,
metamagician's apprentice[UE],
ten-ring sword[UC],
belt of physical might +4 (Dex, Con),
cloak of resistance +5,
dusty rose prism ioun stone,
eyes of the eagle,
glove of storing,
headband of mental superiority +6,
portable hole,
ring of evasion,
ring of wizardry i,
ring of wizardry iv,
tome of leadership and influence +5,
--------------------