Spell Sneak Attack - Any Spell Works?

[SirNibbles]

"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." - Player's Handbook, page 50

"Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone."
- Player's Handbook, page 171

If I'm reading this correctly, you can sneak attack with spells such as Entangle, Grease, Hold Person, etc. because they require saving throws or otherwise harm or hamper subjects and are thus attacks (and a Rogue's attack can deal sneak attack damage).

"Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses." - Complete Arcane, page 85

This does not contradict the above PHB quote in that it does not say that only weaponlike spells can be used in sneak attacks.

There is a bit of an issue in determining what kind of damage would be dealt for spells that normally deal no damage. Is it untyped damage? It it untyped nonlethal damage? The only source I can find that addresses the type of damage dealt by sneak attack is a ROTG article:

"Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack." - All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three)

If you can sneak with just about any spell, even if it doesn't deal damage, Arcane Trickster would be one hell of a PrC- even its area control spells like Grease would deal damage.

_

P.S. I am aware this makes no sense. I'm simply examining RAW.

[Starbuck_II]

"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." - Player's Handbook, page 50

"Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone."
- Player's Handbook, page 171

If I'm reading this correctly, you can sneak attack with spells such as Entangle, Grease, Hold Person, etc. because they require saving throws or otherwise harm or hamper subjects and are thus attacks (and a Rogue's attack can deal sneak attack damage).

"Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. Such spells can threaten critical hits, can be used in sneak attacks, and can be used with favored enemy damage bonuses." - Complete Arcane, page 85

This does not contradict the above PHB quote in that it does not say that only weaponlike spells can be used in sneak attacks.

There is a bit of an issue in determining what kind of damage would be dealt for spells that normally deal no damage. Is it untyped damage? It it untyped nonlethal damage? The only source I can find that addresses the type of damage dealt by sneak attack is a ROTG article:

"Sneak attack damage is always the same type of damage as the weapon used to make the sneak attack." - All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three)

If you can sneak with just about any spell, even if it doesn't deal damage, Arcane Trickster would be one hell of a PrC- even its area control spells like Grease would deal damage.

_

P.S. I am aware this makes no sense. I'm simply examining RAW.

No, it has to deal damage, even stat damage for sneak attack.
FAQ says in cases of stat damage, you deal negative energy damage.

[SirNibbles]

No, it has to deal damage, even stat damage for sneak attack.
FAQ says in cases of stat damage, you deal negative energy damage.

[Citation Needed]

[Gallowglass]

[QUOTE=SirNibbles;21931276]"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target." - Player's Handbook, page 50

Can't have "extra" damage without damage. So only damaging attacks work. FAQ specifically calls out stat dmg and adding on hp work of negative energy dmg.

[Pleh]

Let's read the Sneak Attack SRD a little more closely, eh? Not leave out any funny restrictions....


Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

I've never seen a table rule that spells can trigger sneak attacks (with the only exception being for Touch, Ranged Touch, and Ray type spells... the weaponlike spells), but even if you were going to allow it at your table, no spell could sneak attack beyond a range of 30ft.

Remember if you are using Flanking to sneak attack with a spell, you'd better have a decent concentration skill for casting while threatened in melee.

Not to mention this won't change anything about creatures that remain immune to critical hits and precision damage. Funny, by this same logic you could apply sneak attacks to Turn Undead, but the undead are still immune to it.


This does not contradict the above PHB quote in that it does not say that only weaponlike spells can be used in sneak attacks.

No, but it does imply it rather heavily. Remember the RAI of what Sneak Attack means in Fluff terms. You have to be able to see your target and distinguish an anatomical vulnerable point and "make optimal use of [your] weapon to execute a sneak attack."


With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty, because she make optimal use of she weapon to execute a sneak attack.

Emphasis mine.

Think about it. How do you target an enemy's jugular with an area spell like Grease? Oooo! You really greased his neck thoroughly! I wonder how the tick will manage to hold on as it crawls across his skin? Maybe he'll slip out of his armor?

The spell must be Weaponlike to sneak attack because it takes an attack with a weapon to target a critical weakness on your opponent and strike it to apply precision damage.

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Bottom line: Complete Arcane went to all the trouble of defining Weaponlike Spells so that Rogues and Arcane Tricksters could Sneak Attack with spells that actually could be used to target a specific spot on your enemy.

Trying to backport it into spells that are not weaponlike is nothing but Munchkin shenanigans and doesn't belong in any game.

[Necroticplague]

That's only the definition of 'attack' with regard to spell effects (I.e., invisibility). Sneak Attack isn't a spell effect. Thus, it resorts to the normal meaning of 'attack'.

Any of numerous actions intended to harm, disable, or neutralize an opponent. The outcome of an attack is determined by an attack roll.
So, unless it has an attack roll, it's not an attack.

[Bronk]

[Citation Needed]

I'm away from books now, but the rules for weapon-like spells are in Complete Arcane...