Avatar of Corellon Larethian stats - Help me get it right

[Renduaz]

Corellon Larethian
Medium Celestial, Chaotic Good

AC: 30
Hit Points: 1260 ( 70d8 + 700 )
Speed: 60ft, fly 40ft
Ability Scores: 30 in all
Saving Throws: +19 Dexterity, Wisdom and Charisma
Skills: +28 to Animal Handling, Survival, perception, Performance, Nature and Acrobatics, +19 to Stealth, Religion, Insight and Persuasion
Damage Immunities: Acid, cold, fire, lighting, poison; Bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical weapons
Damage Resistances: Fire
Condition Immunities: Blinded, Charmed, Deafened, Frightened, Poisoned, Stunned, Fatigued, Paralyzed, Petrified
Senses: Darkvision 600ft, Truesight 400ft, Passive Perception 38
Languages: Common, Celestial, Sylvan, Elvish, Telepathy 120ft
Challenge: 50 ( 500,000 EXP )


Innate Spellcasting: Corellon's spell casting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 27. He can innately cast the following Spells, requiring no material components:
At will: Animal Shapes, Transport via Plants,Conjure Woodland Beings, Entangle
3/day each: Mass Heal, Sunburst, Wall of Thorns, Telekinesis
1/day each: Storm of Vengeance
Legendary Resistance ( 10/day ): If Corellon fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
Limited Magic Immunity: Limited Magic Immunity Unless he wishes to be affected, Corellon is immune to spells of 6th level or lower. He has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects.
Magic Weapons: Corellon's weapon attacks are magical.
Regeneration: Corellon regains 70 hit points at the start of his turn.

Might of The Greater Gods

As a Greater Deity and the leader of the Seldarine, even the fraction of divine power project through his avatar is enough to eclipse that of almost all known creatures.

Power Overwhelming: Greater Deities have maximized ability scores, representing the threshold of their avatar's power projection in the Prime Material.
Discorporation: When Corellon Larethian drops to 0 hit points or dies, his body is destroyed but his essence travels back to his domain in Arborea, and he is unable to take physical form for a time.
Divine Health: Greater Deities receives maximum hit points for each Hit Die.
Divine Grace: Greater Deities do not automatically fail on a roll of 1
Divine Invulnerability: Greater Deities are immune to polymorphing or any attacks that alter their form, to any ability drain or damage, to any mind-affecting effects ( Such as Illusions or compulsions ), and to disease, sleep, death effects, and disintegration. They are also immune to any effects that imprison or banish them.
Remote Sensing: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can perceive everything within a radius of 19 miles around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier, unless it's an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by anyr spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. Corellon Larethian can extend its senses to 19 remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby. Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.
Block Sensing: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank.
Divine Attunement: Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
Remote Communication: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within 19 miles away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within 19 miles away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.
Divine Presence: All characters within 30 feet of the Greater Deity's Avatar or gazing directly upon him must make a DC 15 Charisma saving throw. Upon failure, a character rolls a 1d4 and suffers one of the following long-term madness effects ( Which can only be cured with a Greater Restoration spell or more powerful magic. Once the madness if over or cured, a character cannot be affected by it again until 24 hours have passed ) , for a duration of 1d10+10 hours:

1. Gazing reverently upon the deity, unable to take any other actions
2. Feeling a rush of Divine Ecstasy and beginning to chant in prayer, unable to take any other actions,
3. The character becomes frightened so much they attempt to flee the scene perpetually, unable to take any other actions while in presence or sight of the deity,
4. The character falls unconscious, and nothing can wake them up.

Creator of the Tel-Quessir

Known as "The ruler of all Elves" and the race's original creator, it takes immense mental fortitude for Tel-Quessir to resist the will of their Creator Deity, and they receive a great boost to their abilities when obliging it.

Any Tel-Quessir ( I.E Elf ) character must make a DC 27 Wisdom saving throw when looking upon or coming within 30 feet range of Corellon Larethian, or else be subject to his indomitable will at his whim. This effect is similar in nature to "Dominate Person", but lasts indefinitely, with infinite range, and cannot be dispelled by any means. Half-Elves and other beings of partial Tel-Quessir Ancestry make a saving throw of 14 instead. Drow are immune to this ability due to the influence of Lloth.

Allied Tel-Quessir within 1 mile of Corellon Larethian gain advantage to all attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.

Actions

Multiattack: Corellon makes 5 longsword attacks
Longsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. (8d10 + 10) slashing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage.
Longbow: Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: (5d8 + 10) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage.
Serenity of Crescent Grove: Corellon clears any harmful weather effect within 1 miles of his surrounding.


Legendary Actions

Emerald Dream: Corellon can cast "Plane shift" to a location of his choosing in the Feywild with no saving throw on himself and up to 8 other willing or unwilling targets. Corellon cannot choose only himself. The transition lasts for 1 minute, at the end of which all targets shift back to their original positions on the Prime Material automatically, as if no time had passed at all ( I.E Corellon will not be able to use this action again until the start of his turn upon dissipation of the Planar shift )
Timless Archery: Corellon casts "Time Stop", taking 1d4 + 1 turns in a row during which he can only use Ranged Weapon Attacks with his Longbow.
Nimbleness of the Seldarine: Corellon quadruples his speed for up to 1 minute.
Star Smite: Corellon swiftly leaps up hundreds of feet into the air with divine agility, striking down one target with his sword as he lands for double damage, completely ignoring the target's AC as it cleaves through them with unimaginable speed.

Any suggestions for changes/improvements? ( In case you're wondering, yes, he's supposed to be unbelievably powerful and almost impossible, but not completely impossible to defeat with the right items, stats, tactics, armies, and so forth ). I'm also pretty sure I could use some more imagination for the weapon attacks.

Edits so far: Raise CR to 50, removed Shapechange at will, changed Legendary Resistance from 15 to 10, removed a bunch of spells, reduced regeneration rate.

[Specter]

I think you have the save DC wrong (257? Sweet lord).

[JNAProductions]

Right, so he'll never fail a Dex, Wis, or Cha save.

He's immune to half the elements, making a bunch of spells useless.

He has Truesight 400', meaning illusions and such are useless.

He has Passive Perception 38, making sneaking useless. (Oh, you're a level 20 Rogue with Expertise in Stealth and 20 Dex? Your max roll is 37.)

He has Heal at will, meaning he can regain 70 points of damage a turn end end many conditions.

He can Wish once a day.

He has 15-15-uses of Legendary Resistance.

He's totally immune to harmful 6th or lower spells.

Oh, he has regeneration 90? Sure, why not.

His 1s don't auto fail.

DC 15 Charisma save or effectively die, upon seeing him.

Max AC for a Fighter is 20 (full plate plus shield) assuming no magic items. Correlon literally cannot miss most characters.

81*5 damage per turn, if he's in melee (which he's fast enough to be in) for 405 damage.

Oh hey, he can Time Stop once per turn and throw a bunch of arrows out!

Or quadruple his speed, meaning not even Monks can escape.

Or just hit for double damage, with no miss chance.

Right, how would a party of 5 beat him? Because your avatar-AVATAR, not god!-is more powerful than literally everything I've ever made, sans Behemoth.

Edit: Oh, and why not AC 30? So Paladins with Sacred Weapon active only hit on a 14, and everyone else needs 19s to hit.

Edit II: You don't list how many Legendary actions he has-I'll assume 5.

Against a Barbarian prepped for defense (24 Con, 20 Dex, shield, Hill Dwarf, and average HP for AC 24 and 305 HP) who has Bear Totem and is raging, it will take this Avatar...

One turn, and two legendary actions to kill him.

[Unoriginal]

I'd say he's way too powerful. Tiamat might not be a major deity, but she's way too weak in comparison, as far as I can tell.

To say nothing of the Demon Lords, who are supposed to be around Lloth's weight class in power, and Lloth is supposed to be a threat for Corellon.

[JNAProductions]

I'd say he's way too powerful. Tiamat might not be a major deity, but she's way too weak in comparison, as far as I can tell.

To say nothing of the Demon Lords, who are supposed to be around Lloth's weight class in power, and Lloth is supposed to be a threat for Corellon.

Also, this is an AVATAR of the big CL. Not the deity himself.

Yeah, he's far, FAR too powerful.

Edit: How did I miss CR 30 At-Will Shapechange? So he can turn into a Dragon... An ancient one. Every single round. Refreshing his HP pool each time.

[AvatarVecna]

The only real problem with this stat block, from a design standpoint, is the CR. If the CR was adjusted to actually reflect how difficult this avatar is to kill, and how good he is at killing others, there wouldn't be anything to complain about, it'd just be a super-powerful monster. Right now, though, it's a super-powerful monster that is drastically under-CR'd, which is problematic for its usage.

[Renduaz]

I think you have the save DC wrong (257? Sweet lord).

Yes I did, it's 27. Thanks for notifying me.


Right, so he'll never fail a Dex, Wis, or Cha save. ( 1 )

He's immune to half the elements, making a bunch of spells useless. ( 2 )

He has Truesight 400', meaning illusions and such are useless. ( 3 )

He has Passive Perception 38, making sneaking useless. (Oh, you're a level 20 Rogue with Expertise in Stealth and 20 Dex? Your max roll is 37.) ( 4 )

He has Heal at will, meaning he can regain 70 points of damage a turn end end many conditions. ( 5 )

He can Wish once a day. ( 6 )

He has 15-15-uses of Legendary Resistance. ( 7 )

He's totally immune to harmful 6th or lower spells. ( 8 )

Oh, he has regeneration 90? Sure, why not. ( 9 )

His 1s don't auto fail. ( 10 )

DC 15 Charisma save or effectively die, upon seeing him. ( 11 )

Max AC for a Fighter is 20 (full plate plus shield) assuming no magic items. Correlon literally cannot miss most characters. ( 12 )

81*5 damage per turn, if he's in melee (which he's fast enough to be in) for 405 damage. ( 13 )

Oh hey, he can Time Stop once per turn and throw a bunch of arrows out! ( 14 )

Or quadruple his speed, meaning not even Monks can escape. ( 15 )

Or just hit for double damage, with no miss chance. ( 16 )

Right, how would a party of 5 beat him? Because your avatar-AVATAR, not god!-is more powerful than literally everything I've ever made, sans Behemoth.

Edit: Oh, and why not AC 30? So Paladins with Sacred Weapon active only hit on a 14, and everyone else needs 19s to hit. ( 17 )

Alright, so let's break this down

1. Intentional. He's the Greater Deity of Elves, and one of the most powerful Deities in the whole Pantheon. This guy is like 10 times more impressive than Tiamat in the Rise of Tiamat according to 3.5 information on his Divine Rank at least. So I'd say he should probably have at least two of those on max. Scratch one of them?

2. Intentional, mostly borrowed from Tiamat's official stats and 3.5 rules for Greater Deities. Since it's his Avatar though, perhaps something can be cut down, but still has to match Tiamat or slightly higher at least.

3. Intentional. Greater Deities are probably impossible to fool, especially by non-deities. Maybe truesight down to 220ft which is twice as much as Tiamat?

4. Intentional. Elves tend to be perceptive, this guy is their multiverse overlord. Even in Avatar form, since that's the maximum number you can do. His "real" stats in his home plane is probably higher than anything you can assign to a creature per the rules.

5. Can be changed.

6. Can be changed. Suggestions?

7. 10 instead?

8. Intentional, since so is Tiamat and the Tarrasque.

9. Down to 60?

10. Intentional, borrowed from 3.5 rules.

11. Intentional, just to impress the idea of a Greater Deity. You aren't supposed to confront him in the first place unless you're the most powerful badass to ever live in a D&D game.

12. Intentional, unless players do a bunch of stuff to temporarily or permanently raise AC ( There are combos in the web which let you raise it up to 30-40 or even more per core rules )

13. How much less?

14. Intentional.

15. Intentional.

16. Intentional. Possibly add to ordinary actions instead of Legendary actions though? So he can only do it once when it's his turn.

17. Aren't there a bunch of artifacts or buffs and other stuff to increase to hit chance? Anyway, Tiamat has 25 as does the Tarrasque.



Because your avatar-AVATAR, not god!-is more powerful than literally everything I've ever made

He's the Avatar of a Greater Deity. He's supposed to be several times more powerful than Tiamat or a Tarrasque at the very least. He's only meant to be beaten with the best artifacts in D&D, with the best minmaxing, with the best buffs, best tactics, and possibly an army to boot.

Edit: You're not including items such as artifacts in your calculations.

[Renduaz]

I'd say he's way too powerful. Tiamat might not be a major deity, but she's way too weak in comparison, as far as I can tell.

To say nothing of the Demon Lords, who are supposed to be around Lloth's weight class in power, and Lloth is supposed to be a threat for Corellon.

Any source on the Demon Lords being around Lloth's weight class in power? I was under the impression that even the most minor Deity can smack any demon-lord or arch-fiend to dirt just due to his divinity.


Also, this is an AVATAR of the big CL. Not the deity himself.

Yeah, he's far, FAR too powerful.

Edit: How did I miss CR 30 At-Will Shapechange? So he can turn into a Dragon... An ancient one. Every single round. Refreshing his HP pool each time.

True, there's some possibly exploits there. I suppose I'll find some alternative.


The only real problem with this stat block, from a design standpoint, is the CR. If the CR was adjusted to actually reflect how difficult this avatar is to kill, and how good he is at killing others, there wouldn't be anything to complain about, it'd just be a super-powerful monster. Right now, though, it's a super-powerful monster that is drastically under-CR'd, which is problematic for its usage.

I actually wanted to give him a CR of like 60, but I know it's officially hard-capped at 30. Will it not be a problem to raise it?

[Unoriginal]

Yes I did, it's 27. Thanks for notifying me.



Alright, so let's break this down

1. Intentional. He's the Greater Deity of Elves, and one of the most powerful Deities in the whole Pantheon. This guy is like 10 times more impressive than Tiamat in the Rise of Tiamat according to 3.5 information on his Divine Rank at least. So I'd say he should probably have at least two of those on max. Scratch one of them?

2. Intentional, mostly borrowed from Tiamat's official stats and 3.5 rules for Greater Deities. Since it's his Avatar though, perhaps something can be cut down, but still has to match Tiamat or slightly higher at least.

3. Intentional. Greater Deities are probably impossible to fool, especially by non-deities. Maybe truesight down to 220ft which is twice as much as Tiamat?


That's part of the problem. You can't use 3.5 deities as a guidelines, they're way, way more powerful than in 5e.

[AvatarVecna]

I actually wanted to give him a CR of like 60, but I know it's officially hard-capped at 30. Will it not be a problem to raise it?

The CR 30 hard-cap doesn't actually exist, they just don't make monsters that go above CR 30 because PCs are capped at lvl 20, and they can only punch so far above their own level; you can set CR above 30, but if your monster should be over CR 30 by the AC/HP/Attack/Damage benchmarks/patterns, players won't be fighting them except in super-high-powered games. Those benchmarks for CR are there to make homebrewing monsters relatively easy to CR, since CR is roughly a measure of how difficult the monster is to kill and survive. 30 isn't a hardcap, and putting 30 for this monster seems incredibly misleading as to its actual capabilities. My suggestion would be to use the benchmarks to figure out what its CR should be, and put that down...and then spend some time figuring out an approximate level of XP that's appropriate for such a monstrosity. As it currently stands, this dude on his own is supposedly a Trivial encounter for 28 lvl 20 characters working together, but I don't think that's actually all that accurate looking at the stat block. Maybe if they were all super-archers optimized for pure damage? I'll figure out how many super-archers it would take to kill this dude later, but for now I suggest finding out what his approximate CR is.

[HolyDraconus]

So.... 6 level exhaustion for the kill?

[Renduaz]

That's part of the problem. You can't use 3.5 deities as a guidelines, they're way, way more powerful than in 5e.

As I've said, I'm also using Tiamat's stats as a guideline, trying to increase stats appropriately based on the assumption that he's significantly more powerful. I added nothing to damage immunities, added paralyzed, petrified and fatigued from Tiamat's original, added 3 +19 saving throws as opposed to Tiamat's +19 str saving throw, +17 wisdom, and +9 dex, and also increased darkvision/truesight about 4x from Tiamat's stats in the choices you named.

[Mhl7]

So.... 6 level exhaustion for the kill?

:smallbiggrin:

For the OP: what is the purpose of this thing? Will it ever see play? If so, how good will the PC be when facing him?

[Unoriginal]

Like, let's compare 3.5 Tiamat with 5e Tiamat.


3.5 stats will be in bold, 5e stats will be in itallic

AC: 69 25

HP 906 615

Magical power: Spells like a lvl 20 Cleric and a lvl 20 Sorcerer, wihtout even going into her god powers. Can cast Divine Word 3 times a day

You're way, way overestimating the powers of deities in 5e, with your statblock.

[Honest Tiefling]

Any source on the Demon Lords being around Lloth's weight class in power? I was under the impression that even the most minor Deity can smack any demon-lord or arch-fiend to dirt just due to his divinity.

Not, exact, but...


The chaotic power of the Abyss rewards demons of particular ruthlessness and ingenuity with a dark blessing, transforming them into unique fiends whose power can rival the gods.

[Unoriginal]

Any source on the Demon Lords being around Lloth's weight class in power? I was under the impression that even the most minor Deity can smack any demon-lord or arch-fiend to dirt just due to his divinity.

Lloth hasn't conquered the Abyss, meaning that the others demon rulers can challenge her. Otherwise, she'd run the place.

Again, you're over-estimating 5e's deities.

[Renduaz]

:smallbiggrin:

For the OP: what is the purpose of this thing? Will it ever see play? If so, how good will the PC be when facing him?

Not much purpose beyond wanting to see representation of more deity avatars in the game. It might see play, in plots involving Elves. How good will the PC have to be when facing him? Well, Corellon he's a Good deity and Greater Deities don't even manifest their avatars that much on the Prime Material, so no one should even encounter him in that form unless they're of Multiverse-Shattering importance, and if they decide to attack him too, or provoke him into doing it, they should probably have hundreds of Legendary items, potions, gear etc in stock, the most minmaxed build in existence, proper knowledge of munchinkry spell combinations and tactics, and the ability to summon or hire an army.

[Specter]

Out of curiosity, why did you make this? Because I don't think even 10 level 20 guys could beat him.

[Renduaz]

Like, let's compare 3.5 Tiamat with 5e Tiamat.


3.5 stats will be in bold, 5e stats will be in itallic

AC: 69 25

HP 906 615

Magical power: Spells like a lvl 20 Cleric and a lvl 20 Sorcerer, wihtout even going into her god powers. Can cast Divine Word 3 times a day

You're way, way overestimating the powers of deities in 5e, with your statblock.

I'm comparing to Tiamat in 5e, not Tiamat in 3.5. I only get "inspiration" from 3.5 when it comes to what kind of talents could be expected, but regarding the raw stats of said talents, I consult Tiamat's stat block and raise by 2-4x for Corellon on certain attributes which seem fitting.


Not, exact, but...

I've always interpreted it to mean the same as 3.5, which is they can "rival" the gods, but are still no match for Greater Deities.


Lloth hasn't conquered the Abyss, meaning that the others demon rulers can challenge her. Otherwise, she'd run the place.

Again, you're over-estimating 5e's deities.

Perhaps she's only matched by all of them and their infinite demonic hordes in the Abyss? Look at it this way, I'm not sure if this carried into 5E cosmology, but after the Spell-plague, Asmodeus gained divinity, became a Greater Deity, and single-handedly ended the Blood War by banishing the entire Abyss into the depths of Elemental Chaos with a flick of his finger.

[Renduaz]

Out of curiosity, why did you make this? Because I don't think even 10 level 20 guys could beat him.

Idle boredom mostly, but it could possibly be used. And I have to say, as I mentioned in the OP too, this avatar is not supposed to be the kind of thing which you just "get up a party and beat". He's deliberately nigh-on impossible ( Although should not be *technically* impossible, which is why I'm asking for tweaking advice ) to defeat. But if there's even the slightest chance that an army with the best army, artifacts, tactics, buffs, magic weapons, armor, items and teamwork around can make countless preparations to defeat him by the breadth of a thin hair, then that's exactly where I want his challenge rating to be.

[HolyDraconus]

You DO realize that he's a FR diety right? They die. Alot. Hell, Mystra had the power to rival Ao and has died like twice

[Mhl7]

Not much purpose beyond wanting to see representation of more deity avatars in the game. It might see play, in plots involving Elves. How good will the PC have to be when facing him? Well, Corellon he's a Good deity and Greater Deities don't even manifest their avatars that much on the Prime Material, so no one should even encounter him in that form unless they're of Multiverse-Shattering importance, and if they decide to attack him too, or provoke him into doing it, they should probably have hundreds of Legendary items, potions, gear etc in stock, the most minmaxed build in existence, proper knowledge of munchinkry spell combinations and tactics, and the ability to summon or hire an army.

You don't have a purpose. You did not set a CR. You don't have a party to throw against this.

There is literally no benchmark for this thing. How should we help you creating it if you don't know what you want? A greater deity is not a good description. Stronger than Tiamat isn't either. With only a lower limit you can do whatever you want, even your abomination is fair when no upper limit is given.

Dude, you need an upper limit. Something like: can beat Tiamat, but not Tiamat and Demogorgon together; Is hard for a group of 5 lvl 20 PCs; beats the Terrasque only 99% of times.. something like this.

Stronger than everything else can be anywhere from 'Tiamat + 1Hp' to 'rock fall, you die'. Not much help can be given.

[Renduaz]

You DO realize that he's a FR diety right? They die. Alot. Hell, Mystra had the power to rival Ao and has died like twice

Yes, but Greater Deities usually don't die at the hands of puny mortals though ( Unless it's the Time of Troubles ). The first time Mystra didn't get killed, she sacrificed herself to save the Weave from Karsus. The second time she was murdered by Cyric who is also a Greater Deity. And nobody in FR settings has the power to rival Ao. No idea where you read that.


You don't have a purpose. You did not set a CR. You don't have a party to throw against this.

There is literally no benchmark for this thing. How should we help you creating it if you don't know what you want? A greater deity is not a good description. Stronger than Tiamat isn't either. With only a lower limit you can do whatever you want, even your abomination is fair when no upper limit is given.

Dude, you need an upper limit. Something like: can beat Tiamat, but not Tiamat and Demogorgon together; Is hard for a group of 5 lvl 20 PCs; beats the Terrasque only 99% of times.. something like this.

Stronger than everything else can be anywhere from 'Tiamat + 1Hp' to 'rock fall, you die'. Not much help can be given.

Can beat 5 Tiamat's. Is nigh-on impossible for a group of 50 lvl 20 PC's. Those descriptions are inaccurate as hell, but apparently that's how you want it, so there they are. Mostly I already specified my intention: He should be beatable by level 20's with access to every official magical artifact ( Armor pieces, potions, wands, bottles, whatever ), with max optimization for their class, who know how to to do stuff like this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac) , who know how to use the environment or somehow lure Corellon to somewhere where he is disadvantaged, and who can, since you really want such numbers, let's say can summon up to 50 level 20 creatures to aid them. Alright?

[Unoriginal]

but regarding the raw stats of said talents, I consult Tiamat's stat block and raise by 2-4x for Corellon on certain attributes which seem fitting.

It's really not. Corellon's not that powerful, even in 3.5, even compared to Tiamat.



Perhaps she's only matched by all of them and their infinite demonic hordes in the Abyss? Look at it this way, I'm not sure if this carried into 5E cosmology, but after the Spell-plague, Asmodeus gained divinity, became a Greater Deity, and single-handedly ended the Blood War by banishing the entire Abyss into the depths of Elemental Chaos with a flick of his finger.

It didn't carry over, no. Also, not even Greater Deities can do that.

Also, Lloth has infinite demonic hordes too.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, but Greater Deities usually don't die at the hands of puny mortals though ( Unless it's the Time of Troubles ). The first time Mystra didn't get killed, she sacrificed herself to save the Weave from Karsus. The second time she was murdered by Cyric who is also a Greater Deity. And nobody in FR settings has the power to rival Ao. No idea where you read that.

Again, you're thinking of another edition.

I'm really sorry if I sounds like a negative, no-fun-allowed person, but you gotta realize that 5e changed a lot.



Can beat 5 Tiamat's. Is nigh-on impossible for a group of 50 lvl 20 PC's. Those descriptions are inaccurate as hell, but apparently that's how you want it, so there they are. Mostly I already specified my intention: He should be beatable by level 20's with access to every official magical artifact ( Armor pieces, potions, wands, bottles, whatever ), with max optimization for their class, who know how to to do stuff like this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac) , who know how to use the environment or somehow lure Corellon to somewhere where he is disadvantaged, and who can, since you really want such numbers, let's say can summon up to 50 level 20 creatures to aid them. Alright?

So you're not actually interested in portraying Corellon, just the meme version of Chuck Norris.

[HolyDraconus]

Yes, but Greater Deities usually don't die at the hands of puny mortals though ( Unless it's the Time of Troubles ). The first time Mystra didn't get killed, she sacrificed herself to save the Weave from Karsus. The second time she was murdered by Cyric who is also a Greater Deity. And nobody in FR settings has the power to rival Ao. No idea where you read that.



Can beat 5 Tiamat's. Is nigh-on impossible for a group of 50 lvl 20 PC's. Those descriptions are inaccurate as hell, but apparently that's how you want it, so there they are. Mostly I already specified my intention: He should be beatable by level 20's with access to every official magical artifact ( Armor pieces, potions, wands, bottles, whatever ), with max optimization for their class, who know how to to do stuff like this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac) , who know how to use the environment or somehow lure Corellon to somewhere where he is disadvantaged, and who can, since you really want such numbers, let's say can summon up to 50 level 20 creatures to aid them. Alright?

My exact words was die. And 2 look it up. Musta was split in two.

[Beleriphon]

I'm comparing to Tiamat in 5e, not Tiamat in 3.5. I only get "inspiration" from 3.5 when it comes to what kind of talents could be expected, but regarding the raw stats of said talents, I consult Tiamat's stat block and raise by 2-4x for Corellon on certain attributes which seem fitting.

I've always interpreted it to mean the same as 3.5, which is they can "rival" the gods, but are still no match for Greater Deities.

Perhaps she's only matched by all of them and their infinite demonic hordes in the Abyss? Look at it this way, I'm not sure if this carried into 5E cosmology, but after the Spell-plague, Asmodeus gained divinity, became a Greater Deity, and single-handedly ended the Blood War by banishing the entire Abyss into the depths of Elemental Chaos with a flick of his finger.

Which is all find an dandy, but an Avatar is still an Avatar if you're giving it monster stats, you might as well make conceivably beatable by a relatively normal player group, even if the group needs to be 20th level.

[Renduaz]

It's really not. Corellon's not that powerful, even in 3.5, even compared to Tiamat.



It didn't carry over, no. Also, not even Greater Deities can do that.

Also, Lloth has infinite demonic hordes too.

Okay. I already made a post asking/proposing alterations in one of my first responses, zero response so far. What would you downgrade, keeping in mind that the encounter should be the most difficult possible in D&D ( Since even if not that powerful, the avatar of a greater deity is still the most powerful creature anyone can encounter on the prime material )? Just say "Reduce this, this, that" for starters. But preferably, as I said, this shouldn't be something that a party encounters and just goes "Oh yeah, let's just put up some basic-ass buffs and attacks and we take him down". It should be a project of months of preparation with magic items and armor and weapons and knowing ****. Like, most people in this thread don't even have a clue how high you can rise your AC: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

And I got told it's too much on that basis by someone. So I'm taking that into account when doing my own considerations.

[JNAProductions]

I just noticed, simulacrum 3/day.

...

Why? Just why? That means you face an army of him.

[Honest Tiefling]

I just noticed, simulacrum 3/day.

...

Why? Just why? That means you face an army of him.

I'm more confused by Weird. God of magic, okay, but...A fear effect that rakes at people's minds? That doesn't seem fitting. Heck, Storm of Vengeance is of questionable logic I think as well. He's not destructive or associated with weather, so...

Since the players are NEVER going to beat this thing, why not give him more flavorful spells?

[Renduaz]

Again, you're thinking of another edition.

I'm really sorry if I sounds like a negative, no-fun-allowed person, but you gotta realize that 5e changed a lot.



So you're not actually interested in portraying Corellon, just the meme version of Chuck Norris.


Which is all find an dandy, but an Avatar is still an Avatar if you're giving it monster stats, you might as well make conceivably beatable by a relatively normal player group, even if the group needs to be 20th level.

I don't want it beatable by a "normal" group. I want it beatable by an hardcore pro group who can do their homework and who take the time to make preparations and tactics/item research before challenging a greater deity's avatar. That's all. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine. I don't think I'm ever going to get any constructive comments about that, so I'll just try to retrofit on my own.

[JNAProductions]

What homework? What weaknesses are there to exploit?

He can literally change into an ancient dragon every round, and if knocked out of dragon form, WILL kill at least one player a turn.

[Beleriphon]

Okay. I already made a post asking/proposing alterations in one of my first responses, zero response so far. What would you downgrade, keeping in mind that the encounter should be the most difficult possible in D&D ( Since even if not that powerful, the avatar of a greater deity is still the most powerful creature anyone can encounter on the prime material )? Just say "Reduce this, this, that" for starters. But preferably, as I said, this shouldn't be something that a party encounters and just goes "Oh yeah, let's just put up some basic-ass buffs and attacks and we take him down". It should be a project of months of preparation with magic items and armor and weapons and knowing ****. Like, most people in this thread don't even have a clue how high you can rise your AC: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

And I got told it's too much on that basis by someone. So I'm taking that into account when doing my own considerations.

I think the question everybody is asking is this an exercise in making monsters just for the heck of it, or is it an exercise in creating a fightable monster for a game you're running? Because if it is the former, nothing wrong with it as such, although the CR is obviously too low. If it's for a game, even months of planning aren't going over ride the basic game mechanics of combat using this as an avatar. For a better judge see if you can did up the avatar stats from the Avatar Trilogy and go from there. It was an AD&D 1E adventure series where a bunch of gods were forced into mortalish avatar form and actually fought each other. The stats from that are probably going to be much more in line with what you'd expect from 5E.

[Unoriginal]

Okay. I already made a post asking/proposing alterations in one of my first responses, zero response so far. What would you downgrade, keeping in mind that the encounter should be the most difficult possible in D&D ( Since even if not that powerful, the avatar of a greater deity is still the most powerful creature anyone can encounter on the prime material )? Just say "Reduce this, this, that" for starters. But preferably, as I said, this shouldn't be something that a party encounters and just goes "Oh yeah, let's just put up some basic-ass buffs and attacks and we take him down". It should be a project of months of preparation with magic items and armor and weapons and knowing ****. Like, most people in this thread don't even have a clue how high you can rise your AC: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

And I got told it's too much on that basis by someone. So I'm taking that into account when doing my own considerations.

I would propose changes, but my problem is that the basic assumption is creating something that "should be the most difficult possible in D&D ( Since even if not that powerful, the avatar of a greater deity is still the most powerful creature anyone can encounter on the prime material )", because I heavily disagree with that.

If you want advice on stating Corellon, I can try to help. If you want to portray a near unbeatable death machine that is basically impossible to defeat, then what you have would probably do. Or is at least in the right direction.


I don't want it beatable by a "normal" group. I want it beatable by an hardcore pro group who can do their homework and who take the time to make preparations and tactics/item research before challenging a greater deity's avatar. That's all. It shouldn't be too hard to imagine. I don't think I'm ever going to get any constructive comments about that, so I'll just try to retrofit on my own.

Maybe you should try to stat such an hardcore pro group, to give yourself a baseline on what they can do.

[Renduaz]

What homework? What weaknesses are there to exploit?

He can literally change into an ancient dragon every round, and if knocked out of dragon form, WILL kill at least one player a turn.

Alright, I removed those. And no, I don't think he will kill at least one player, since Tiamat can do 67-91 average damage with a bunch of her head legendary actions, to every party member in sight. I think that players with the right items, buffs, who know how to increase their AC to 40's-50's for example ( Look it up in google ) and know how to heal, possibly with an army of healers at their back, can still possibly win.


I think the question everybody is asking is this an exercise in making monsters just for the heck of it, or is it an exercise in creating a fightable monster for a game you're running? Because if it is the former, nothing wrong with it as such, although the CR is obviously too low. If it's for a game, even months of planning aren't going over ride the basic game mechanics of combat using this as an avatar. For a better judge see if you can did up the avatar stats from the Avatar Trilogy and go from there. It was an AD&D 1E adventure series where a bunch of gods were forced into mortalish avatar form and actually fought each other. The stats from that are probably going to be much more in line with what you'd expect from 5E.

This kind of home work for once: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

Got told by people here that it's "too hard" because they can't reach an AC beyond a certain number. Or this kind of homework: https://donjon.bin.sh/5e/magic_items/ ( Tons of stuff here that can double everything you can imagine from what people here consider the "maximum" for a party )

[Renduaz]

I would propose changes, but my problem is that the basic assumption is creating something that "should be the most difficult possible in D&D ( Since even if not that powerful, the avatar of a greater deity is still the most powerful creature anyone can encounter on the prime material )", because I heavily disagree with that.

If you want advice on stating Corellon, I can try to help. If you want to portray a near unbeatable death machine that is basically impossible to defeat, then what you have would probably do. Or is at least in the right direction.



Maybe you should try to stat such an hardcore pro group, to give yourself a baseline on what they can do.

Alright, sure. What's the advice on Corellon? Should be at least somewhat stronger than Tiamat, I think. Even if by your standards you're just gonna give it +1 AC or +10 to damage.

Secondly, I was member of many such groups, and I'm modelling this after my experience. Do you want hard examples on what "homework" could be done? Alright. Use a Sphere of Annihilation. Use certain necromancer/druid combos which allow you to summon dozens of undead/others to act as cannon fodder, while shielding yourself possibly with certain hut/Prismatic wall spells. Use Belt of Storm Giant Strength for 29 strength. Use Manuals to increase stats above 20. Use "Instant Fortress" or lure corellon to somewhere like that to gain 3/4 cover positions which can help you achieve 40-50's AC scores. Need I go on about spells and tactics?

Draw him to some elemental plane in which you possible have some source of power. Use "simulacrum" or "Clone" yourself to deal the initial damage to Corellon, as much as you can pack before he kills them. Use the magical damage types he's not immune to for maximum effect. Even if he succeeds on a save, he still takes half damage. Make sure you pack a punch and he still gets dealt damage. Put up anti-magic fields to block any of his magical effects. Reach greater speeds and kite him ( Someone even reached something like 1000feet with the most basic rules ), use one of the many temporary no damage spells to absorb his attacks for long enough while others remotely damage him.

[HolyDraconus]

He's not immune to exhaustion you know...

[Renduaz]

He's not immune to exhaustion you know...

He is, it's the "Fatigued" condition actually, I understand they are synonymous. Fatigued is the condition, "Exhaustion" is the concept with different degrees. Corellon can't be fatigued in the first place though.

[Zman]

Honestly, this is pretty bad. It is so absurdly powerful it might as well have been summed up as.... DM Fiat. A God should be simply DM Fiat, an Avatar of a God in the Mortal Realm should be different, something relatable to things in the MM. It should be effectively the most powerful walking Fareun, not not orders of magnitude more powerful than Ancient Dragons, or Solars, or Balors, or Pit Fiends, or even the Tarrasque.


How about taking a Solar and Empyrean as your starting reference points.... "A Solar is godlike in its glory and power." "Empyreans are celestial children of the gods" Now that you have a Solar, a God's most powerful steward, often only one such lieutenant per God etc. Since the Avatar is literally the God made manifest in the Mortal plane, maybe we just up increase some stats to reflect Corellon Larethian's particular strengths and weaknesses, note not all six abilities are likely to be at 30.

IMO, we should be shooting for something like CR25-30ish.

~300hp
~AC25
Str22, Dex30, Con24, Int30, Wis26, Cha30
~Fly Speed
Truesight
Magic Resistence
3 Legendary Resistances
Legendary Actions, maybe the ability to cast some spells as Legendary Actions
Immunity to Nonmagical weapons
Immunity to Radiant and Necrotic maybe
Immunity to Charmed, Exhausted, Poison, and Frightened etc.
Resistance to all Elements maybe.
Proficiency in all or most Saves ranging from +14-18
Some Innate Spellcasting say equal to a level 20 Wizard or maybe some select spells with some At Wills.
Some unique abilities for Action Cost, maybe the ability to Concentrate on multiple spells simultaneously.



IMO that is that the Avatar of a Greater God should look like in DnD 5e. Literally the strongest thing walking around, but not so strong that it might as well just be DM Fiat. Strong enough to swat character around, but not so Strong a high level party could give it a run for its money.

[DKing9114]

Any source on the Demon Lords being around Lloth's weight class in power? I was under the impression that even the most minor Deity can smack any demon-lord or arch-fiend to dirt just due to his divinity.


According to Kobold Fight Club, Tiamat is classified as a fiend. In the lore of some DnD worlds, Evil Gods are simply the most powerful Fiends, and the line between gods and devils has always been kind of hazy.

And to be perfectly honest, any campaign where I was expected to try to fight this being would inspire either a rage quit or a serious conversation with the GM, and probably both. His average damage per hit is 81, with 5 hits per round, and his worst rolls hit an AC 20. He can very easily kill 3-4 level 20 characters each turn, and if turns progress as usual while he is planeshifted(he and whoever else he has planeshifted go 10 rounds in the feywild), he can now regenerate 900 points each round. Then, add the fact that he is immune to most conditions and either immune or resistant to most damage (and it takes a 7th level spell slot to scratch him), which relegates casters to support roles only. Then, one PC race is simply incapable of facing him, and another has a decent chance of being dominated within a handful of turns.

That doesn't even take into account the fact that I would be fighting Corellon Larethian. Which, unless your campaign is very different from most DnD settings, any Good character and most Neutral ones would have a problem with. And I'm supposed to raise an army to fight him?

[JNAProductions]

Corellon Larethian
Medium Celestial, Chaotic Good

AC: 30
Hit Points: 1260 ( 70d8 + 700 )
Speed: 60ft, fly 40ft
Ability Scores: 30 in all
Saving Throws: +19 Dexterity, Wisdom and Charisma
Skills: +28 to Animal Handling, Survival, perception, Performance, Nature and Acrobatics, +19 to Stealth, Religion, Insight and Persuasion
Damage Immunities: Acid, cold, fire, lighting, poison; Bludgeoning, piercing and slashing from non-magical weapons
Damage Resistances: Fire
Condition Immunities: Blinded, Charmed, Deafened, Frightened, Poisoned, Stunned, Fatigued, Paralyzed, Petrified
Senses: Darkvision 600ft, Truesight 400ft, Passive Perception 38
Languages: Common, Celestial, Sylvan, Elvish, Telepathy 120ft
Challenge: 50 ( 500,000 EXP )


Innate Spellcasting: Corellon's spell casting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 27. He can innately cast the following Spells, requiring no material components:
At will: Animal Shapes, Transport via Plants,Conjure Woodland Beings, Entangle
3/day each: Mass Heal, Sunburst, Wall of Thorns, Telekinesis
1/day each: Storm of Vengeance
Legendary Resistance ( 10/day ): If Corellon fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
Limited Magic Immunity: Limited Magic Immunity Unless he wishes to be affected, Corellon is immune to spells of 6th level or lower. He has advantage on saving throws against all other spells and magical effects.
Magic Weapons: Corellon's weapon attacks are magical.
Regeneration: Corellon regains 70 hit points at the start of his turn.

Might of The Greater Gods

As a Greater Deity and the leader of the Seldarine, even the fraction of divine power project through his avatar is enough to eclipse that of almost all known creatures.

Power Overwhelming: Greater Deities have maximized ability scores, representing the threshold of their avatar's power projection in the Prime Material.
Discorporation: When Corellon Larethian drops to 0 hit points or dies, his body is destroyed but his essence travels back to his domain in Arborea, and he is unable to take physical form for a time.
Divine Health: Greater Deities receives maximum hit points for each Hit Die.
Divine Grace: Greater Deities do not automatically fail on a roll of 1
Divine Invulnerability: Greater Deities are immune to polymorphing or any attacks that alter their form, to any ability drain or damage, to any mind-affecting effects ( Such as Illusions or compulsions ), and to disease, sleep, death effects, and disintegration. They are also immune to any effects that imprison or banish them.
Remote Sensing: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can perceive everything within a radius of 19 miles around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier, unless it's an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by anyr spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. Corellon Larethian can extend its senses to 19 remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby. Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.
Block Sensing: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank.
Divine Attunement: Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
Remote Communication: As a standard action, Corellon Larethian can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within 19 miles away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within 19 miles away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.
Divine Presence: All characters within 30 feet of the Greater Deity's Avatar or gazing directly upon him must make a DC 15 Charisma saving throw. Upon failure, a character rolls a 1d4 and suffers one of the following long-term madness effects ( Which can only be cured with a Greater Restoration spell or more powerful magic. Once the madness if over or cured, a character cannot be affected by it again until 24 hours have passed ) , for a duration of 1d10+10 hours:

1. Gazing reverently upon the deity, unable to take any other actions
2. Feeling a rush of Divine Ecstasy and beginning to chant in prayer, unable to take any other actions,
3. The character becomes frightened so much they attempt to flee the scene perpetually, unable to take any other actions while in presence or sight of the deity,
4. The character falls unconscious, and nothing can wake them up.

Creator of the Tel-Quessir

Known as "The ruler of all Elves" and the race's original creator, it takes immense mental fortitude for Tel-Quessir to resist the will of their Creator Deity, and they receive a great boost to their abilities when obliging it.

Any Tel-Quessir ( I.E Elf ) character must make a DC 27 Wisdom saving throw when looking upon or coming within 30 feet range of Corellon Larethian, or else be subject to his indomitable will at his whim. This effect is similar in nature to "Dominate Person", but lasts indefinitely, with infinite range, and cannot be dispelled by any means. Half-Elves and other beings of partial Tel-Quessir Ancestry make a saving throw of 14 instead. Drow are immune to this ability due to the influence of Lloth.

Allied Tel-Quessir within 1 mile of Corellon Larethian gain advantage to all attack rolls, saving throws and ability checks.

Actions

Multiattack: Corellon makes 5 longsword attacks
Longsword: Melee Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. (8d10 + 10) slashing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage.
Longbow: Ranged Weapon Attack: +19 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: (5d8 + 10) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage.
Serenity of Crescent Grove: Corellon clears any harmful weather effect within 1 miles of his surrounding.


Legendary Actions

Emerald Dream: Corellon can cast "Plane shift" to a location of his choosing in the Feywild with no saving throw on himself and up to 8 other willing or unwilling targets. The transition lasts for 1 minute, at the end of which all targets shift back to their original positions on the Prime Material automatically, as if no time had passed at all ( I.E Corellon will not be able to use this action again until the start of his turn upon dissipation of the Planar shift )
Timless Archery: Corellon casts "Time Stop", taking 1d4 + 1 turns in a row during which he can only use Ranged Weapon Attacks with his Longbow.
Nimbleness of the Seldarine: Corellon quadruples his speed for up to 1 minute.
Star Smite: Corellon swiftly leaps up hundreds of feet into the air with divine agility, striking down one target with his sword as he lands for double damage, completely ignoring the target's AC as it cleaves through them with unimaginable speed.

Any suggestions for changes/improvements? ( In case you're wondering, yes, he's supposed to be unbelievably powerful and almost impossible, but not completely impossible to defeat with the right items, stats, tactics, armies, and so forth ). I'm also pretty sure I could use some more imagination for the weapon attacks.

Edits so far: Raise CR to 50, removed Shapechange at will, changed Legendary Resistance from 15 to 10, removed a bunch of spells, reduced regeneration rate.

Make a 5 man team that can beat him.
Go ahead.

[AvatarVecna]

this avatar is not supposed to be the kind of thing which you just "get up a party and beat". He's deliberately nigh-on impossible ( Although should not be *technically* impossible, which is why I'm asking for tweaking advice ) to defeat.

For the vast majority of games that ever take place, even theoretical charop stuff, this guy won't see play - at least not as actual stats. If anybody needs to have a major deity show up in their game, they won't go to google to see if any homebrewer has ever statted them up, they'll just handwave it and say "it's a major deity, you couldn't do it with an army of 20th lvl badasses

"The best defense is an overwhelming offense."

Human Soldier Fighter (Champion) 20

AC: 17
HP: 364
Initiative: +15 (advantage)



Attribute
Score
Modifier
Save


Strength
30
+10
+10


Dexterity
30
+10
+17


Constitution
30
+10
+17


Intelligence
30
+10
+17


Wisdom
30
+10
+17


Charisma
30
+10
+17



Skills
Athletics +6
Acrobatics +17
Perception +17
Intimidate +6

Feats/ASIs
Human: Sharpshooter
4: Resilient (Dex)
6: Resilient (Wis)
8: Alert
12: Tough
14: Durable
16: Resilient (Cha)
19: Resilient (Int)

Items
Studded Leather +3
Oathbow (A)
Quiver of Ehlonna
(60) +3 Arrows
Potion Of Heroism
(11) Manual Of Gainful Exercise
(7) Manual Of Quickness Of Action
(7) Manual Of Bodily Health
(10) Tome Of Clear Thought
(7) Tome Of Understanding
(10) Leadership and Influence
Ioun Stone Of Mastery (A)
Dagger Of Warning (A)

Class Features
Archery Fighting Style
Second Wind
Action Surge (2)
Superior Critical
Extra Attack 3
Remarkable Athlete
Indomitable (3)
Close Quarters Shooting Fighting Style
Survivor

Attack Routine
4 ranged weapon attacks with Oathbow/+3 Arrows.
Attack: 1d20+1d4+23, with Advantage.
Damage: 1d8+3d6+13 magical piercing.
Crits: 18-20/2d8+6d6+13 magical piercing.

Saves don't auto-fail on a 1 in 5e, so a +17 is enough to prevent the squad from getting shut down by Divine Presence.
87.31% (http://anydice.com/program/b621) (very roughly 7 out of 8) of these guys will beat Corellon on Initiative, unless "Creator of the Tel-Quessir" lets him give himself perma-advantage to everything as well (in which case it's 79.24% (http://anydice.com/program/b622), or roughly 4 in 5); I'm pretty sure it doesn't, though, or there would be no need for Limited Magic Immunity to mention that he has advantage on saves vs magic stuff, since he would have advantage on all saves if that were the case.

All of them downed a Potion Of Heroism about 10 minutes before engaging, and a Potion Of Speed about 2 rounds before engaging. Based on some quick Damage Per Attack Calculations (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14p2g-WWmFJYw4g4AY_vUdmsqNi3S6NS_5g6wONrGD7g/edit?usp=sharing) indicate that it's best to use the Sharpshooter tradeoff here despite the hit to accuracy...and that it would take approximately 35 attacks to take out Corellon's HP (assuming he can't heal with Legendary Actions, which I don't think I saw a way for him to do).

Since each Squad Member can burn an Action Surge to get 9 attacks per round each, killing Corellon in a single round with a squad of these guys is best done having 4 of them beat him on initiative - which means that a 5 man squad of these guys should have a pretty decent chance of ending him even if he has advantage to initiative.

EDIT: If those magic items are too much for you, you can cut down on them by getting rid of the Str/Int/Wis books (and maybe even some of the Con books). Only reason not to get rid of the Cha stuff is for protection from Divine Presence, but other than that, you only really need Dex for your five-man deicide squad. The 60 +3 arrows


Again, you're thinking of another edition.

I'm really sorry if I sounds like a negative, no-fun-allowed person, but you gotta realize that 5e changed a lot.

Indeed. Among other things, they made damage matter a lot more at the higher levels, making Fighters a lot more viable.

This is mostly because while the designers (and the various homebrewers) are perfectly fine making avatars of major deities immune to basically every BS magic trick in existence, they still don't feel comfortable making them flat-out immune to damage. :smalltongue:

[JNAProductions]

He's faster than them, and can spot them with ease. How do they get him to actually fight, and fight alone at that?

Edit: he can heal, by the way. 700 HP by plane shifting away for a minute.

[AvatarVecna]

He's faster than them, and can spot them with ease. How do they get him to actually fight, and fight alone at that?

Maybe the deity is arrogant enough to think they couldn't kill him if they tried. Maybe this is a six-man squad and the sixth dude is a Wizard who teleported them in from across the planet. Maybe he teleported into an unsecure location without checking because he's arrogant and they got ahead of him? This wasn't an ambush scenario, and it doesn't have to be. Why should a god hide from a bunch of filthy humans who think they're any good at archery?


Edit: he can heal, by the way. 700 HP by plane shifting away for a minute.

Ah well. Of course, him surviving by virtue of running away, even if only temporarily, is probably the closest lvl 20 characters are going to come to victory.

[Renduaz]

Honestly, this is pretty bad. It is so absurdly powerful it might as well have been summed up as.... DM Fiat. A God should be simply DM Fiat, an Avatar of a God in the Mortal Realm should be different, something relatable to things in the MM. It should be effectively the most powerful walking Fareun, not not orders of magnitude more powerful than Ancient Dragons, or Solars, or Balors, or Pit Fiends, or even the Tarrasque.


How about taking a Solar and Empyrean as your starting reference points.... "A Solar is godlike in its glory and power." "Empyreans are celestial children of the gods" Now that you have a Solar, a God's most powerful steward, often only one such lieutenant per God etc. Since the Avatar is literally the God made manifest in the Mortal plane, maybe we just up increase some stats to reflect Corellon Larethian's particular strengths and weaknesses, note not all six abilities are likely to be at 30.

IMO, we should be shooting for something like CR25-30ish.

~300hp
~AC25
Str22, Dex30, Con24, Int30, Wis26, Cha30
~Fly Speed
Truesight
Magic Resistence
3 Legendary Resistances
Legendary Actions, maybe the ability to cast some spells as Legendary Actions
Immunity to Nonmagical weapons
Immunity to Radiant and Necrotic maybe
Immunity to Charmed, Exhausted, Poison, and Frightened etc.
Resistance to all Elements maybe.
Proficiency in all or most Saves ranging from +14-18
Some Innate Spellcasting say equal to a level 20 Wizard or maybe some select spells with some At Wills.
Some unique abilities for Action Cost, maybe the ability to Concentrate on multiple spells simultaneously.




IMO that is that the Avatar of a Greater God should look like in DnD 5e. Literally the strongest thing walking around, but not so strong that it might as well just be DM Fiat. Strong enough to swat character around, but not so Strong a high level party could give it a run for its money.

Some things are even lower than Tiamat who has 615 hit points, a few more immunities, 5 legendary resistances, and so on, but I do appreciate the effort. But it just doesn't... seem like "The manifestation of the Greater Deity of all the Tel-Quessir upon the Prime Material" to me when his stats are basically on par with a slightly beefed Tarrasque. And Solar and Empyreans are as you say, servants of Gods, but they're weaker than a lesser god, and Corellon is a greater god.

I hear "It's just an Avatar", but if I imagine Corellon's actual form in Arborea, I'm thinking about something like impossible scores of 60+ with reality-shaping forces who can basically squash thousands of the Prime Material's greatest creatures with impunity, so maybe my conception of the avatar really is just too powerful. I don't know, I guess my ideas don't align with most players here. I think it's being judged by a standard of "Can I just beat this on the fly with zero effort, just using dice rolls, on a sunday casual adventure" and that's totally the opposite of what I aim for. Maybe I'll keep some middle ground version for myself and my friends who like extreme challenges.


According to Kobold Fight Club, Tiamat is classified as a fiend. In the lore of some DnD worlds, Evil Gods are simply the most powerful Fiends, and the line between gods and devils has always been kind of hazy.

And to be perfectly honest, any campaign where I was expected to try to fight this being would inspire either a rage quit or a serious conversation with the GM, and probably both. His average damage per hit is 81, with 5 hits per round, and his worst rolls hit an AC 20. He can very easily kill 3-4 level 20 characters each turn, and if turns progress as usual while he is planeshifted(he and whoever else he has planeshifted go 10 rounds in the feywild), he can now regenerate 900 points each round. Then, add the fact that he is immune to most conditions and either immune or resistant to most damage (and it takes a 7th level spell slot to scratch him), which relegates casters to support roles only. Then, one PC race is simply incapable of facing him, and another has a decent chance of being dominated within a handful of turns.

That doesn't even take into account the fact that I would be fighting Corellon Larethian. Which, unless your campaign is very different from most DnD settings, any Good character and most Neutral ones would have a problem with. And I'm supposed to raise an army to fight him?


Again - He can only kill that easily if you're just thinking of waltzing in with absolutely nothing except your pure stats and basic armor. Not if you have a calculate plan for spells and a bunch of legendary magic gear and artifacts, I believe. I also keep linking this guide as an example of the kind of people which nobody is willing to do: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac

And I guess he's probably mean to be fought by evil players or neutral players with a reason to do so. Maybe even a misunderstanding or force of choice between two "lesser evils" by a good party.

[AvatarVecna]

Final note before I screw off for a little while: this should probably get moved to the homebrew sub-forum, whether that's you copy-pasting the statblock there or asking a mod to move the thread.

[Renduaz]

Make a 5 man team that can beat him.
Go ahead.

Seems someone just did, below your comment.


He's faster than them, and can spot them with ease. How do they get him to actually fight, and fight alone at that?

Edit: he can heal, by the way. 700 HP by plane shifting away for a minute.

You're supposed to chase him with some tracking method and your own plane shift or other spell or item as soon as he tries to leave, actually. Part of the "preparation" As for getting to him, why, he's a good deity. He's probably gonna let you up close to talk obviously. And he's not necessarily "faster". Google up "Highest speed 5E" to see what you can do.


Maybe the deity is arrogant enough to think they couldn't kill him if they tried. Maybe this is a six-man squad and the sixth dude is a Wizard who teleported them in from across the planet. Maybe he teleported into an unsecure location without checking because he's arrogant and they got ahead of him? This wasn't an ambush scenario, and it doesn't have to be. Why should a god hide from a bunch of filthy humans who think they're any good at archery?



Ah well. Of course, him surviving by virtue of running away, even if only temporarily, is probably the closest lvl 20 characters are going to come to victory.

Technically I'm pretty sure it should be possible for 20th level characters to use some scrying or commune type of spell to quickly figure out where he went and lunge right back at him as soon as he attempts that. By the way though, he can only plane shift to the Feywild as for that legendary action.

[AvatarVecna]

Seems someone just did, below your comment.

In total fairness, that particular five-man squad is loaded to the gills with magic items, even if they only have the Dex books necessary for that attack/damage. Of course, the flip side of that is that there's some homebrew classes I've seen (such as the Powerhouse-Sniper) that could do even better due to making the same "tons of offense, not much defense" tradeoff this squad makes. In a real game, you wouldn't have a five-man squad that are all the same build at this level, they wouldn't collectively have enough Dex books for even one of them to reach 30, they probably wouldn't have 60 +3 arrows each, and they'd probably have at least one attunement slot set aside for defense (like a Cloak of Displacement, or a Mantle Of Spell Resistance, or something). These characters are optimized for pure damage output, and do a fine job...but they're a very specialized party.

[JNAProductions]

How fast can the party listed move?

No schrodinger's party here.

[Zman]

I can beat the listed Correllon Larethian with just two level 20 characters. No magic items required.

2x lvl20 Clerics of differing greater deities of similar alignment and disposition of animosity or competition with CL.

Both use Divine Intervention, both ask for direct aid in defeating the avatar of a greator power. Both are incentivized to work together and intervene with their own absurdly powerful avatars.

Two versus one and done.

[AvatarVecna]

How fast can the party listed move?

No schrodinger's party here.

You're experienced enough in 5e to know the answer, don't pretend otherwise, and I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'd make up a new party just to post a speed that can outrun the deity.

And as already stated, the deity running away like a little bitch because he can't handle five measly mortals is plenty victory.

EDIT: Although I feel Zman's solution is a lot more elegant. :smalltongue:

[JNAProductions]

Also. The listed party would lose.

First legendary action, 2X damage (162) on one member. Same for action two-one guy is dead. Action three, planeshift. Heal 700 hp.

Repeat.

[Renduaz]

In total fairness, that particular five-man squad is loaded to the gills with magic items, even if they only have the Dex books necessary for that attack/damage. Of course, the flip side of that is that there's some homebrew classes I've seen (such as the Powerhouse-Sniper) that could do even better due to making the same "tons of offense, not much defense" tradeoff this squad makes. In a real game, you wouldn't have a five-man squad that are all the same build at this level, they wouldn't collectively have enough Dex books for even one of them to reach 30, they probably wouldn't have 60 +3 arrows each, and they'd probably have at least one attunement slot set aside for defense (like a Cloak of Displacement, or a Mantle Of Spell Resistance, or something). These characters are optimized for pure damage output, and do a fine job...but they're a very specialized party.

Even a weaker squad could still possibly defeat him though, as I thought, and he's meant to be extremely difficult to kill in the first place, but right now I'd even say that your party makes me think I was too lenient about his power. Not that I'm going to change it though. And as for the rest, like I said, confronting this deity is only meant for the most qualified parties around. Nobody is meant to be attacking an Avatar of Corellon until they're basically as much of a legend as Elminster across the realms and the planes. By the time I'd potentially allow a party to even draw the attention of a Greater Deity's avatar, they should have sufficient items to beat him, even if it will be harder than you described.


Also. The listed party would lose.

First legendary action, 2X damage (162) on one member. Same for action two-one guy is dead. Action three, planeshift. Heal 700 hp.

Repeat.


I see this "planeshift and heal" cited a lot, I should probably mention that it was intended to be for Corellon and someone else, not just Corellon. Maybe the wording wasn't clear, I should probably change it to reflect that.

[AvatarVecna]

Also. The listed party would lose.

First legendary action, 2X damage (162) on one member. Same for action two-one guy is dead. Action three, planeshift. Heal 700 hp.

Repeat.

Yes yes, you're very salty that somebody other than you created a powerful creature, and that they ever thought it was an appropriate challenge for 5 20 lvl characters, but the CR has since been change to be a better reflection of the statblock's, making a 5-man team no longer the requirement. I guess if the DM runs the same kind of DPR calcs I did, and knows the squad can kill the deity in one round, he might go into full defense mode, but that strikes me as you metagaming the deity as having perfect knowledge of this party to prove your point that it's very difficult to beat.

[JNAProductions]

How does the party do without active potions?

He needs only flee for ten minutes.

[AvatarVecna]

How does the party do without active potions?

He needs only flee for ten minutes.

Fleeing for 10 minutes just means the Potion Of Speed wears off, limiting that first round of attacks to 8 per person. Of course, it takes an average of 36 attacks from these guys, which means we'd want 5 guys beating him on initiative (~50% chance of getting 5 guys beating him on initiative, or thereabout); of course, if we add a 6th party member (which would make this a barely-Deadly fight if he was CR 30, which he's not), getting 5 would be much easier, and taking him out in the first round before he gets to act is still totally possible outside of him Plane Shifting away. Of course, if he runs for 50 minutes, that takes the Bless Potion out of the equation, which makes things much more difficult, but him running away for a solid hour. Taking Bless out of the equation means it takes ~41 attacks on average, which isn't possible with 5 guys but is plenty possible with 6 (in the aforementioned situation where we add one to make this a more even fight between the PCs and a CR "30" creature). So even without the potions, 6 guys could likely do it before he gets regular actions, although all 6 would need to beat him on initiative (not super-likely, but not super-unlikely either).

EDIT: Is there a particular reason you're still arguing that it's not an appropriate encounter for 5 lvl 20 PCs anyway? They changed the CR to 50, the stakes are much higher at this point. They've acknowledged that it's tougher than CR 30 warrants and changed things to accomodate, what's the issue?

[JNAProductions]

Thought heroism was ten minutes, not an hour.

Anyway, salty because OP insists CL is beatable by a well prepped party, uses schrodinger's party rather than an actual build, and just seems generally off-putting.

[DKing9114]

Fleeing for 10 minutes just means the Potion Of Speed wears off, limiting that first round of attacks to 8 per person. Of course, it takes an average of 36 attacks from these guys, which means we'd want 5 guys beating him on initiative (~50% chance of getting 5 guys beating him on initiative, or thereabout); of course, if we add a 6th party member (which would make this a barely-Deadly fight if he was CR 30, which he's not), getting 5 would be much easier, and taking him out in the first round before he gets to act is still totally possible outside of him Plane Shifting away. Of course, if he runs for 50 minutes, that takes the Bless Potion out of the equation, which makes things much more difficult, but him running away for a solid hour. Taking Bless out of the equation means it takes ~41 attacks on average, which isn't possible with 5 guys but is plenty possible with 6 (in the aforementioned situation where we add one to make this a more even fight between the PCs and a CR "30" creature). So even without the potions, 6 guys could likely do it before he gets regular actions, although all 6 would need to beat him on initiative (not super-likely, but not super-unlikely either).

EDIT: Is there a particular reason you're still arguing that it's not an appropriate encounter for 5 lvl 20 PCs anyway? They changed the CR to 50, the stakes are much higher at this point. They've acknowledged that it's tougher than CR 30 warrants and changed things to accomodate, what's the issue?

He doesn't need to flee, he can simply grab two and drag them along. Let the first two (or three if you're using 6) make their attacks, then take them along when he jumps away. Kill them, come back for the next set. Broken down, Corellon uses his first Legendary Action to grabs the first attacker and two others, then uses his next two Actions to attack the last to attack(which may or may not knock them out) and uses his turn to cast Mass Heal targeting only himself (+770 hp) including regen. He's now back to about full health, and this turn his legendary action attacks will almost certainly knock the third attacker out, meaning he only takes 18 attacks. Use his turn to target the second opponent to attack (while regenerating 70 hp), which is likely to knock him/her out, but if it doesn't? Legendary Action attack to finish the job. He can now kill the last attacker this turn, then spend time regenerating before grabbing the next opponent.

Ultimately, though, as JNAProductions mentioned, the salt is because OP is abrasive (trying not to say the m word). Your own party needs 260 very rare, one use per century items just to get the stats and feats for your assault, and at that level of anything goes the exercise gets rather pointless. I may as well say I'm using the Legendary Godslayer sword that autocrits every time I hit.

[AvatarVecna]

He doesn't need to flee, he can simply grab two and drag them along. Let the first two (or three if you're using 6) make their attacks, then take them along when he jumps away. Kill them, come back for the next set.

This is the step where it breaks down: taking two guys and just killing them isn't gonna happen, because they're still gonna be trying to kill him...and that means they'll still get their attacks. And it doesn't change that this particular plan of attack is still dependent on the deity having perfect knowledge of the party's build and tactics, and knowing exactly when to use his "get out of death free" Legendary actions to avoid getting skewered to death.


Your own party needs 260 very rare, one use per century items

In my party's defense, I've said multiple times that they only really need the Dex ones for this, with the rest being tons of insurance. It's still a lot of books, of course, but saying all 260 are needed is false.

[Mhl7]

And it doesn't change that this particular plan of attack is still dependent on the deity having perfect knowledge of the party's build and tactics, and knowing exactly when to use his "get out of death free" Legendary actions to avoid getting skewered to death.


Nope, it is not dependent on the party. Divide et impera is a strategic basic rule. The most logic thing to do is pick half the party with the first legendary action and fight against them for 10 rounds. Then get back and fight the rest.

Also, he can predict his own defeat with Divine Attunement and prepare accordingly.

Rereading the Stat Block, is reeks of 3.5 so much that it is nauseating.
What is a divine rank?
What is a standard action?
What is an ability drain?

On a stylistic side: I think that Power Overwhelming and Divine Health are useless in the stat block of a monster. You don't need to know why a monster has the given stats.
Well, maybe Divine Health can stay to avoid confusion when one notices a discrepancy between Hp and HD. But really, I think it is more elegant to simply increase the number of HD.

[AvatarVecna]

Nope, it is not dependent on the party. Divide et impera is a strategic basic rule. The most logic thing to do is pick half the party with the first legendary action and fight against them for 10 rounds. Then get back and fight the rest.

The strategic validity of the tactic isn't what's in question, it's the deity actually using it. 5 mortals who are pretty good with bows going up against the deity who invented both elves and archery? Frickin' scrubs need to git gud! "Divide and conquer" is a legitimate tactic for people who aren't so powerful that they can curbstomp deities, which Corellon is supposed to be. Playing the avatar of a major deity in-character, particularly the War God King Of Elves, means making a display of your literally god-tier martial prowess by curbstomping any straight-up fight you take part in.

That this stat block can't actually win a straight-up fight with a handful of (admittedly very magic-item-heavy) mortals when they challenge him to a "see who can bow and arrow better" fight means something's gone wrong. We wouldn't tolerate 20th lvl Dragon Sorcerers being able to Dragon better than Tiamat, so why isn't the major deity who invented both archery and elves more accurate than most accurate mortals in existence?


Also, he can predict his own defeat with Divine Attunement and prepare accordingly.

The "Divine Attunement" senses only relate to his portfolio, they're not complete precog/postcog. Maybe if Corellon was the god of death, or getting his ass kicked, he'd be able to sense his incoming defeat with his portfolio senses, but otherwise he doesn't necessarily know it's coming. EDIT: Maybe he's sensing that they're a powerful group of bow-wielders, I guess?


Rereading the Stat Block, is reeks of 3.5 so much that it is nauseating.
What is a divine rank?
What is a standard action?
What is an ability drain?

Can't say I disagree. Even the feel of the statblock is 3.5 to an uncomfortable degree. If I can work up the energy today, I'll probably try and throw together a stat block of my own that's a bit more gishy than this while being closer to an actual avatar in terms of power level.

[Mhl7]

The strategic validity of the tactic isn't what's in question, it's the deity actually using it. 5 mortals who are pretty good with bows going up against the deity who invented both elves and archery? Frickin' scrubs need to git gud! "Divide and conquer" is a legitimate tactic for people who aren't so powerful that they can curbstomp deities, which Corellon is supposed to be. Playing the avatar of a major deity in-character, particularly the War God King Of Elves, means making a display of your literally god-tier martial prowess by curbstomping any straight-up fight you take part in.

That this stat block can't actually win a straight-up fight with a handful of (admittedly very magic-item-heavy) mortals when they challenge him to a "see who can bow and arrow better" fight means something's gone wrong. We wouldn't tolerate 20th lvl Dragon Sorcerers being able to Dragon better than Tiamat, so why isn't the major deity who invented both archery and elves more accurate than most accurate mortals in existence?


Well, with that reasoning you can beat him with a 1st level character: Corellon ignores him because he is to week to bother, given enough rounds the god is dead simply by poking it with a magical stick (and a lot of crital hits). Actually no, because of regeneration, but whatever, you got the idea.

The point is: if he doesn't use his abilities he is way weaker. You are testing nothing if you ignore some abilities. Your team can defeat Corellon, but not if he uses one of his abilities. What did you prove? The answer is: Corellon without one of his legendary actions can be defeated. Corellon in the current state? Not yet. Your team is not enough. The god is still too strong. The original question
still got no answer.



The "Divine Attunement" senses only relate to his portfolio, they're not complete precog/postcog. Maybe if Corellon was the god of death, or getting his ass kicked, he'd be able to sense his incoming defeat with his portfolio senses, but otherwise he doesn't necessarily know it's coming. EDIT: Maybe he's sensing that they're a powerful group of bow-wielders, I guess?

So.. he senses stuff that happens to his clerics.. but not stuff that happens to his Avatar? Seriously? Even if it was the case, you said that Corellon is the War God of Elves and that he invented archery. Is it too far from his portfolio for him to sense the mightiest group of archers in existence while they battle a god of elves?

[Lombra]

I think that a well calibrated CD 50 monster (because of how this edition works) is effectively unbeatable by a group of even 5 max level, max geared characters. (With epic boons and such)

Maybe you could use the Tarrasque to deduct the constant of proportionality used to tone down monsters from 3.5 to 5.0, compare the stat blocks of the 3.5 Tarrasque vs the 5.0 Tarrasque and apply the same principle to the 3.5 Avatar of Corellon.

5.0 isn't as MMO as 3.5, so I think that you'll have to find some compromises to make it work both for you and the players.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, with that reasoning you can beat him with a 1st level character: Corellon ignores him because he is to week to bother, given enough rounds the god is dead simply by poking it with a magical stick (and a lot of crital hits). Actually no, because of regeneration, but whatever, you got the idea.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why "taking an argument to it's logical extreme to mock the position" is a logical fallacy. He'd still fight them, and they'd die, it'd just be quicker than the 20th lvl guys.


The point is: if he doesn't use his abilities he is way weaker. You are testing nothing if you ignore some abilities. Your team can defeat Corellon, but not if he uses one of his abilities. What did you prove? The answer is: Corellon without one of his legendary actions can be defeated. Corellon in the current state? Not yet. Your team is not enough. The god is still too strong. The original question
still got no answer.

My point was that the team can beat Corellon unless Corellon uses an ability that he has no reason to think he absolutely needs to use if he wishes to survive this fight.


So.. he senses stuff that happens to his clerics.. but not stuff that happens to his Avatar? Seriously?

Sensing stuff happening to his clerics (Remote Sensing) is 1) a separate ability entirely, and 2) requires that it relate to his portfolio.


Even if it was the case, you said that Corellon is the War God of Elves and that he invented archery. Is it too far from his portfolio for him to sense the mightiest group of archers in existence while they battle a god of elves?

If this statblock was actually in line with 5e deity avatars, these characters would be significant enough to legitimately be the mightiest group of archers and thus worthy of his precognitive attention; as it stands, this guy is so far above anything that exists in 5e that these guys aren't even worth mentioning. They aren't close to the mightiest because Corellon's avatar stats are indicative of god-tier archery above and beyond what these guys are capable of even here. While we're on the subject, here's the original Divine Portfolio Sense stuff:


Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

That bolded bit is important; this isn't perfect precognition, even in 3.5, this is a vague sense that things are happening, but not what the results of those happenings are. Again, if he were a death deity, it'd be different (assuming the "death" of an avatar could trigger such a portfolio sense, since "killing" an avatar isn't even a death in a strict sense, but that's neither here nor there). At best, 20 weeks ago (or whatever) he got a Divine Memo that in 20 weeks he was going to have a fight with a group of powerful mortal archers. If this was 3.5, he'd probably have to legitimately worry about such a group (because it could involve epic fighters, or worse epic mages), but in 5e? Even the best mortal isn't really comparable to a Greater Deity. If he looks into it deeply at any point, and (in-universe, without meta-knowledge of the existence of stats) finds some way to crunch the numbers and realize they stand a chance (which, for anybody other than a deity, would be blatant undeniable metagaming).

TL;DR: his statblock is tough enough to beat without you conflating a vague divination ability into perfect metagame-precognition relating to elves, battle, or archery. You may as well say his Portfolio Sense gives him perfect metaknowledge of every fight that happens in the next 5 months, every person who touches a longbow in the next 5 months, and anybody who meets an elf in the next 5 months.

[Mhl7]

snip

Leave out the Divine Attunement. It is clearly too subjective to have a constructive discussion about it.

Assume that we roll initiative and you got lucky: 5 out of 5 of your archers will have a round before Corellon. They also digested 260 manuals and Corellon underestimates them, thinking they will never manage to beat him.

Round 1
Archer #1: takes out approximately 1/4 of Corellon life. Corellon laugh it off
Archer #2: takes out approximately 1/4 of Corellon life. Corellon laugh it off
Archer #3: takes out approximately 1/4 of Corellon life.
At this point the God, with his mighty intelligence, realizes that things are going badly for him, he is down to 1/4 of his life or ~300 Hp. He then decides to Plane Shift away with Archer #1 and #2. (Is this still to metagamey for you? Can the god have a change of attitude now? Or should he laugh off every attack till he is down to 1Hp?)
Archer #4: ...
Archer #5: ...
Corellon: Mass Heal. He now has ~1000 Hp and 10 rounds to kill 2 out of 5 of your archers.

Who wins now? Unless they are very lucky, I would say Corellon.

My point is: if he uses its abilities, your 5 character fail. Even without matagaming (from Corellon side, from your archer side there is a lot of metagaming actually). Hence his abilities are still too strong. This is a fact.
You saying that he wont use his abilities doesn't disprove that, as written, he will beat your 5 archers.

My point is not that your example is not a good one. It is almost perfect, but that abomination of a god is still too strong. The question still stands:


Make a 5 man team that can beat him.
Go ahead.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, an avatar with 30 Int is not going to go easy against a five-man team of legendary archers decked out in more magic than a 3.5 character.

Because here's the thing-these archers? They're going to be world-famous adventurers. Probably evil ones, if they're trying to kill Corellon. So he'd know about them, and KNOW they were a threat. Even if he didn't... The first volley wipes out around a quarter of his HP. He'd start taking them pretty damn seriously then.

Edit: I made my own Avatar. Find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522004-Avatar-Of-Corellon-Larethian&p=21934361#post21934361).

[Unoriginal]

The strategic validity of the tactic isn't what's in question, it's the deity actually using it. 5 mortals who are pretty good with bows going up against the deity who invented both elves and archery? Frickin' scrubs need to git gud!

I dunno, 5 mortals who are pretty good with bows have a good chance against the deity who invented evil dragons.

[Renduaz]

5-man party that could beat Corellon ( Single example ):

2 Fighters, 3 Paladins lvl 20 with a combat ready AC of up to 35 ( Using this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac) method not even requiring manuals mostly ) with +3 magical weapons could easily survive Corellon's attacks long enough to defeat him. AC could even be raised up to 40 with 3/4 cover achieving possible by everyone hiding behind trees ( Official example for 3/4 cover, and the kind of environment you might fight Corellon in ) and using thrown javelins or hand axes, with 4 out of 5 still capable of attacking every time Corellon needs to move towards someone in order to hit him. He would need rolls of 15+ or 20 on average to hit a target in a combat-ready party decked up with AC-boosting stats, gear and potions, spells and potentially cover.

And that doesn't even take 1/100 of what Vecna gave the party, not to mention spells and other magic items.

[JNAProductions]

Right, okay. Fighters or Paladins in +3 Plate with +3 Shields and the Defense fighting style and a potion of Haste and a Ring of Protection and Cloak of Protection. AC 31. How are you achieving 35?

Also, that right there is 3 attunement items. So you cannot get a +3 sword-those require attunement.

So you're hitting on 19s (14s with Sacred Weapon active on the Paladins) except, if you have cover, so will he. So you're now hitting on 19s (Sacred Weapon) or only on 20s (the Fighters).

So, let's do a straight shoot-out. They stand behind trees and plink away with arrows.

2 Fighters are 8 attacks, are .4 hits a round (all crits). 3 Paladins are 6 attacks, .6 hits a round (.3 crits).

Each hit does 9.5 damage, each crit does 14. So that's... 5.6+2.85+4.2=12.65 damage per round.

The Avatar, meanwhile, hits on 17s, for a 20% hit rate. He does 59.5 damage per hit, for 14.375 damage per attack. He gets 1 attack on his round, then 3.5 per each other person's round, for 18.5 per turn.

That's ~266 DPR.

Please, do your math before you say things. They would get absolutely destroyed, if they fight like you say.

Wait-I forgot they had Potions of Haste! That adds 1.4 damage from the Fighters and 3.525 damage from the Paladins per turn!

So, assuming they all have 20 Con, we're looking at 224 HP per person, or one dying each turn.

In that time, assuming the Avatar spreads his attacks around so as to kill them all at the end of turn five, rather than focusing one down, they will deal...

0 damage. Because he has Regen.

[Unoriginal]

Don't forget the Time Stop and the Plane Shift, too.

[JNAProductions]

He doesn't need Plane Shift and I was accounting for Time Stop-that's the 18.5 attacks per round.

[Mhl7]

5-man party that could beat Corellon ( Single example ):

2 Fighters, 3 Paladins lvl 20 with a combat ready AC of up to 35 ( Using this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/67197/what-is-the-highest-possible-ac) method not even requiring manuals mostly ) with +3 magical weapons could easily survive Corellon's attacks long enough to defeat him. AC could even be raised up to 40 with 3/4 cover achieving possible by everyone hiding behind trees ( Official example for 3/4 cover, and the kind of environment you might fight Corellon in ) and using thrown javelins or hand axes, with 4 out of 5 still capable of attacking every time Corellon needs to move towards someone in order to hit him. He would need rolls of 15+ or 20 on average to hit a target in a combat-ready party decked up with AC-boosting stats, gear and potions, spells and potentially cover.

And that doesn't even take 1/100 of what Vecna gave the party, not to mention spells and other magic items.

Corellon needs a 16 to hit a 35 with the longsword. This is like 1 attack every 4. He attacks 5 times in his turn. He can also do an auto hit at the end of each enemy turn using his legendary action.

We are talking about 6.25 successful attacks per round, the average damage of each attack is 54+27=81. This means that he can pull out 506 damage per round on average. I would say you can kill almost two of them with this damage output.

Maybe, for the first 3 rounds he is better off casting Mass Healing. This means 405 damage per round plus 700 HP healing. It should be enough to kill one enemy each round and stay alive till the 4th round. At that point there are only 2 enemies and Mass Healing is probably not needed anymore.

Of course, even in this case, the best tactic is to teleport away with a couple of enemies. However, it seems it is not needed anymore.

The bottom line is: his legendary actions are really strong!

EDIT: well, we have both the ranged and the melee attacks covered :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

Also, Renduaz, I want you to know that I legitimately want to help. I'm being probably harsher than I should be, because you've raised salt, but I do actually want to help make this a workable encounter.

Because right now... It isn't.

[Envyus]

According to the DMG. There are two types of gods. Lesser and Greater. Lesser Gods dwell on the planes and can be interacted with. Greater Gods are beyond mortals and can't be interacted with by mortals. But they are capable of creating avatars of themselves that are similar in power to lesser gods but are not effected by their avatars destruction.

So an avatar of Corellon should be similar in power to Tiamat not completely beyond her.

[Renduaz]

Corellon needs a 16 to hit a 35 with the longsword. This is like 1 attack every 4. He attacks 5 times in his turn. He can also do an auto hit at the end of each enemy turn using his legendary action.

We are talking about 6.25 successful attacks per round, the average damage of each attack is 54+27=81. This means that he can pull out 506 damage per round on average. I would say you can kill almost two of them with this damage output.

Maybe, for the first 3 rounds he is better off casting Mass Healing. This means 405 damage per round plus 700 HP healing. It should be enough to kill one enemy each round and stay alive till the 4th round. At that point there are only 2 enemies and Mass Healing is probably not needed anymore.

Of course, even in this case, the best tactic is to teleport away with a couple of enemies. However, it seems it is not needed anymore.

The bottom line is: his legendary actions are really strong!

EDIT: well, we have both the ranged and the melee attacks covered :smallbiggrin:

As I've said, with 3/4 cover it's up to 40 AC, and you can actually even get a character with a combat-ready AC of 44 if you can multi-class: ( 4: Multiattack Defense (Ranger 7, triggered by getting hit, active for rest of attacking creature's turn)
+5: Shield (Wizard 1, reaction to being hit, active until your next turn

You're also forgetting that you might have characters with Mass Heal or True Resurrection or healing items and so forth in your party who can restore hit points. There are also plenty of ways to render yourself immune to most damage for a while, etc.. but don't worry, I'm actually going to post a specific party and strategy soon, it's just taking a while to work on it.


Also, Renduaz, I want you to know that I legitimately want to help. I'm being probably harsher than I should be, because you've raised salt, but I do actually want to help make this a workable encounter.

Because right now... It isn't.

No problem, sorry if I came across as stubborn, I just have the feeling that not much attention has been paid thus far to magic item/tactic/spell combinations that could possibly defeat him. Right now I'm in the process of composing that party you wanted and throwing every bit of magical item, tactics and power-building I can against it just to show you how it can be crushed with the right preparations. I'll give you some of my basic thoughts right now though:

A Barbarian Mountain Dwarf at level 20 can actually gain up to 304 HP and Combat Ready AC of 35 with 40 behind 3/4 cover ( And I have the means of providing cover ), with only 2 attunements ( Ring and Cloak of protection ) . I'm deliberating about the 3rd magic attunements since there are a lot of things I could increase. I'm also looking at the "Cube of Force" item which you can activate for like 7 minutes ( 1 minute at a time ) which allow nothing to pass through a barrier surrounding you ( Before running out of charges ), which means a character could potentially use that to heal himself or do anything he wants while Corellon is utterly unable to penetrate the barrier ( He lacks the spells to deal damage to the barrier like Disintegrate and others )

Also, do you know that a character with 40 AC who is behind 3/4 cover ( Which could literally just be hiding behind a tree trunk or portcullis according to official rules ) can actually never be hit by Corellon even if he gets 20 on all attack rolls, except by "Star Smite", and I do believe it could be countered if a character takes 3/4 cover behind something which blocks view or a path to him from above ( I.E ceiling ). That's incredibly powerful.

I think once I'm done making my party, they should be able to defeat him even much more easily than I myself want them to. And I'm actually trying not to use any manuals, multi-classing, feats or boons here. If I did, it would be a child's game.

Edit: Finished basic version of 1 member

Hill Dwarf Soldier Barbarian (Berserker) 20

AC: Permanent 31, Combat Ready 35, 3/4 cover - 40
HP: 309
Initiative: +5 ( Advantage )
Scores: 8 ( 29 ) STR, 20 DEX, 20 CON, 8 INT, 9 WIS, 17 CHA

Attuned Items:

Cloak of Protection, Ring of Protection, Belt of Storm Giant Strength

Items:

Battleaxe +3 ( +18 to hit, 1d8+12+4 magical slashing damage )
Potion of Speed

Buffs:

Shield of Faith

Class Features:
Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Extra Attack
Brutal Critical
Retaliation

[Renduaz]

According to the DMG. There are two types of gods. Lesser and Greater. Lesser Gods dwell on the planes and can be interacted with. Greater Gods are beyond mortals and can't be interacted with by mortals. But they are capable of creating avatars of themselves that are similar in power to lesser gods but are not effected by their avatars destruction.

So an avatar of Corellon should be similar in power to Tiamat not completely beyond her.

Can you please cite the page and full context for the DMG?

Secondly, if it says "Similar in power to lesser gods", that would be even stronger than what I created ( The true power of a Lesser God on his home plane ). I don't think what you fight in "The Rise of Tiamat" is really Tiamat, because first of all I don't believe deities can manifest themselves on the Prime Material directly ( Only in the planes ), and secondly the "Discorporation" trait says that when you kill her, her body is destroyed but her essence travels back to the Nine Hells where she can't take physical form for a while.

This strongly suggests you didn't kill Tiamat in her true essence ( Which would dwell in her home plane at the Nine Hells, like 3.5 rules say ), but rather you killed some sort of manifestation of her. Otherwise she would become a "Dead God", her essence destroyed, her portfolio demolished ( Possibly with you being able to steal her divine power ), and she won't go back to the Nine Hells, rather lay as a corpse in the Astral Sea until she's resurrected, never being able to take physical form or any essence ( Unlike "Discorporation ) until that's done.

Lesser Gods can be interacted with. In their planes. Not directly on the Prime Material.

[Envyus]

Page 11 of the DMG

Here is a snap shot of it.

http://i.imgur.com/XoEyhdY.png

[Renduaz]

Page 11 of the DMG

Here is a snap shot of it.

http://i.imgur.com/XoEyhdY.png

Thanks, I remember there were also Quasi-Deities. Also, Lloth is a Lesser Deity in 5e?

Anyway, this is weird - apparently they can be encountered, but are they encountered in their "Full power" as they are in their home plane? Because according to this, a Greater Deity can manifest an Avatar whose destruction has no effect on the deity, but the same is true for Tiamat with her "Discorporation" trait - Killing her on the Prime Material simply sent her essence back to the Nine Hells, and made her unable to take physical form for a while. This is no different than destroying a Greater Deity's avatar, which has no effect on the essence of the deity himself.

It also implies that the only way of truly vanquishing Tiamat is to destroy her in her home plane and obliterate her essence, and 3.5 rules indeed used to say that a deity's true power is only illustrated in his native plane. ( Where he can also manipulate reality to his will unlike the Prime Material ).

[Unoriginal]

It's Tiamat's full power, she just get sent back to her home plane instead of being killed.

[Envyus]

Thanks, I remember there were also Quasi-Deities. Also, Lloth is a Lesser Deity in 5e?

Anyway, this is weird - apparently they can be encountered, but are they encountered in their "Full power" as they are in their home plane? Because according to this, a Greater Deity can manifest an Avatar whose destruction has no effect on the deity, but the same is true for Tiamat with her "Discorporation" trait - Killing her on the Prime Material simply sent her essence back to the Nine Hells, and made her unable to take physical form for a while. This is no different than destroying a Greater Deity's avatar, which has no effect on the essence of the deity himself.

It also implies that the only way of truly vanquishing Tiamat is to destroy her in her home plane and obliterate her essence, and 3.5 rules indeed used to say that a deity's true power is only illustrated in his native plane. ( Where he can also manipulate reality to his will unlike the Prime Material ).

It's not the same for Tiamat as she can be destroyed in the Nine Hells. And killing her elsewhere does have an effect on her as you wrote. She can't take physical form for a while.

[Renduaz]

It's Tiamat's full power, she just get sent back to her home plane instead of being killed.

Why? If this is the actual Tiamat, then killing her means she's killed permanently. Becomes a "Dead Deity", has no essence, never able to take any form again, loses her portfolio and all her powers. At least, that was the case in previous editions. If you want to contend it isn't, then what's the point of Greater Deities having avatars which, when killed, nothing happens to the Greater Deity's essence? Because nothing happens when you kill "Tiamat" either. Her essence goes back to the Nine Hells and she's simply unable to take form for a while ( Like an Avatar too according to 3.5 rules )

Doesn't make any sense.


It's not the same for Tiamat as she can be destroyed in the Nine Hells. And killing her elsewhere does have an effect on her as you wrote. She can't take physical form for a while.

That's not an "effect". Their "Avatar" explanation is taken from 3.5 where it's said that when an Avatar is destroyed, it can't take form for a while either. Otherwise, a Greater Deity would just spawn another Avatar infinitely as soon as one Avatar is destroyed ( And before you start, no, they can't, go read the "Deities and Demigods" book where this stuff is taken from )

Also, Tiamat would be more powerful in the Nine Hells, at least thanks to her ability to alter reality in her own plane.

[Envyus]

It's Tiamat's full power, she just get sent back to her home plane instead of being killed.

Though she would be stronger in the nine hells through having stuff like lair actions and tons of minions.

[Envyus]

Why? If this is the actual Tiamat, then killing her means she's killed permanently. Becomes a "Dead Deity", has no essence, never able to take any form again, loses her portfolio and all her powers. At least, that was the case in previous editions. If you want to contend it isn't, then what's the point of Greater Deities having avatars which, when killed, nothing happens to the Greater Deity's essence? Because nothing happens when you kill "Tiamat" either. Her essence goes back to the Nine Hells and she's simply unable to take form for a while ( Like an Avatar too according to 3.5 rules )

Doesn't make any sense.

Because she can't be killed outside of her domain. Because she discorporates. Put simply a god is not easy to kill.

[Renduaz]

Though she would be stronger in the nine hells through having stuff like lair actions and tons of minions.

The fact that just gets her essence sent back and not becomes a Dead God suggests it wasn't her true form or true power, either. There must be some value to Tiamat's "essence" which makes it tougher to actually murder her and obliterate her portfolio for good, as opposed to simply banishing her by destroying a physical form manifestation, which was summoned through a ritual.


Because she can't be killed outside of her domain. Because she discorporates. Put simply a god is not easy to kill.

I know, but you're also claiming that she isn't stronger in her home plane than on the Prime Material, which is contrary to 3.5 rules. In which deities don't just gain lair actions, they're also like twice as powerful on their own right.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Avatar_(Divine_Ability)

It takes Divine Rank 6 ( Lesser Deity level ) in 3.5 to make an Avatar, it's not exclusive to Greater Deities, they just have a higher quantity and possibly more powerful avatars. Meanwhile though we don't know anything about 5e deities beyond a short open-ended description, so I revert back to 3.5 rules in which a deity is more powerful on his home plane than he is in any kind of manifestation on the prime material, avatar or not.

TL;DR Tiamat in the Nine Hells is in her "true form" and more powerful than what you fight in "Rise of Tiamat" if you use 3.5 rules. Whereas you decide that Tiamat is the same both in her home plane and anywhere else, which you decide as DM since there is no RAW about it, but it's not compatible with known rules from previous editions.

[Unoriginal]

Why? If this is the actual Tiamat, then killing her means she's killed permanently. Becomes a "Dead Deity", has no essence, never able to take any form again, loses her portfolio and all her powers. At least, that was the case in previous editions. If you want to contend it isn't, then what's the point of Greater Deities having avatars which, when killed, nothing happens to the Greater Deity's essence? Because nothing happens when you kill "Tiamat" either. Her essence goes back to the Nine Hells and she's simply unable to take form for a while ( Like an Avatar too according to 3.5 rules )

Doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense.

Reforming in your home plane after being killed in the Material Plane is something even relatively minor Outisders like your basic Devils and Demons are be able to do:




If it dies outside the Nine Hells, a devil disappears in a cloud of sulfurous smoke or dissolves into a pool of ichor, instantly returning to its home layer, where it reforms at full strength. Devils that die in the Nine Hells are destroyed forever- a fate that even Asmodeus fears

Eternal Evil.
Outside the Abyss, death is a minor nuisance that no demon fears. Mundane weapons can't stop these fiends, and many demons are resistant to the energy of the most potent spells. When a lucky hero
manages to drop a demon in combat, the fiend dissolves into foul ichor. It then instantly reforms in the Abyss, its mind and essence intact even as its hatred is inflamed. The only way to truly destroy a demon is to seek it in the Abyss and kill it there.

Particularly powerful ones can outright cheat death even in their own plane.



Protected Essence. A powerful demon can take steps to safeguard its life essence, using secret methods and abyssal metals to create an amulet into which part of that essence is ceded. If the demon's abyssal form is ever destroyed, the amulet allows the fiend to reform at a time and place of its choosing.

Yet summoned demons and devils are still at their full powers in the Material Plane, things like lair action aside.

So Tiamat just has the power to go back to her home plane when her material body is destroyed. She still is in a weakened state for a while.

A Greater Deity would no setback for the destruction of their Avatar, it'd be like a soap bubble getting pierced.

[Renduaz]

It makes perfect sense.

Reforming in your home plane after being killed in the Material Plane is something even relatively minor Outisders like your basic Devils and Demons are be able to do:



Particularly powerful ones can outright cheat death even in their own plane.




Yet summoned demons and devils are still at their full powers in the Material Plane, things like lair action aside.

So Tiamat just has the power to go back to her home plane when her material body is destroyed. She still is in a weakened state for a while.

A Greater Deity would no setback for the destruction of their Avatar, it'd be like a soap bubble getting pierced.

What "weakened state" other than not being able to take physical form for a while, which is basically the same thing as a Greater Deity ( existing by it's essence in the Astral Sea/Planes ) sending a physical representation ( Avatar ) that characters can interact with, and can be physically destroyed. Both Lesser Deities and Greater Deities have an "essence". Both have a physical form which can be destroyed but doesn't affect their essence.

[Unoriginal]

What "weakened state" other than not being able to take physical form for a while, which is basically the same thing as a Greater Deity ( existing by it's essence in the Astral Sea/Planes ) sending a physical representation ( Avatar ) that characters can interact with, and can be physically destroyed. Both Lesser Deities and Greater Deities have an "essence". Both have a physical form which can be destroyed but doesn't affect their essence.

Not the same. A Lesser Deity would be reduced to their essence, without being to affect the world around them physically. A Greater Deity wouldn't have any problem re-creating an avatar immediately, and could do whatever they want otherwise.

It's like the difference between needing a Raise the Dead and having one of your conjured minion die.

[Renduaz]

Not the same. A Lesser Deity would be reduced to their essence, without being to affect the world around them physically. A Greater Deity wouldn't have any problem re-creating an avatar immediately, and could do whatever they want otherwise.

It's like the difference between needing a Raise the Dead and having one of your conjured minion die.

If he can just re-create the avatar immediately, there would be no point in destroying it. And that's contrary to 3.5 rules. Listen, you're basically just making this up, it's not 5e RAW ( Neither is my idea, but at least mine is compatible with 3.5 )

There is nothing in 5e that says Lesser Deities have the same power anywhere as they do in their home plane, nor are there any rules about what happens when you destroy a Greater Deity's avatar.

[EvilAnagram]

I think the problem with this creation is that if you replace every number with the infinity symbol, you've effectively changed nothing, which makes this useless from both a gamist and storytelling perspective.

More importantly, as a shard of an extremely powerful (but not all-powerful) being, it is far beyond the powers and abilities of already statted creatures that are supposed to be playing in the actual being's league. Orcus, Tiamat, and Demogorgon are all supposed to be in the greater deities' weight class. The greater deities are the Ali and Frasier superstars, but up and comers are still expected to last a few rounds.

To drop out of sports metaphors, greater deities are not supposed to be incomprehensibly powerful beyond what anything could possibly hope to overcome. If that were true, Orcus wouldn't have a god's skull for a club, and every greater devil this side of Dis wouldn't be plotting to seize someone's portfolio. The avatar of a greater deity certainly shouldn't be able to blink and explode the Tarasque.

Edit: Also, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the 3.5 rules. They have as much relevance as the Dresden Files RPG rules in the 5e forums.

[Unoriginal]

If he can just re-create the avatar immediately, there would be no point in destroying it. And that's contrary to 3.5 rules. Listen, you're basically just making this up, it's not 5e RAW ( Neither is my idea, but at least mine is compatible with 3.5 )

There is nothing in 5e that says Lesser Deities have the same power anywhere as they do in their home plane, nor are there any rules about what happens when you destroy a Greater Deity's avatar.

One: saying "it's compatible with 3.5 rules" means nothing. It is not the same game, the settings are not the same, the gods are not the sames.

Two: the rules are that the avatar getting destroyed does not affect the Greater Deity in any way. Which means that the Greater Deity's avatar getting destroyed would not be an hinderance to the deity, suggesting that they could easily recreate one or at least that they have no reason to care about the destruction.

Three: yes, there is no point in destroying a Greater Deity's avatar.

Four: We know that it's Tiamat at her full power because there are specific methods in the module to make her show up at less than 100% power.

Five: It is never mentioned anywhere that Corellon is a Greater Deity. In fact, the flavor text for Greater Deity and Lesser Deity suggest he's more of the latter.

In fact, we know he is a Lesser Deity, because he is described as interacting with mortals, what Greater Deities don't do.

[Renduaz]

I think the problem with this creation is that if you replace every number with the infinity symbol, you've effectively changed nothing, which makes this useless from both a gamist and storytelling perspective.

More importantly, as a shard of an extremely powerful (but not all-powerful) being, it is far beyond the powers and abilities of already statted creatures that are supposed to be playing in the actual being's league. Orcus, Tiamat, and Demogorgon are all supposed to be in the greater deities' weight class. The greater deities are the Ali and Frasier superstars, but up and comers are still expected to last a few rounds.

To drop out of sports metaphors, greater deities are not supposed to be incomprehensibly powerful beyond what anything could possibly hope to overcome. If that were true, Orcus wouldn't have a god's skull for a club, and every greater devil this side of Dis wouldn't be plotting to seize someone's portfolio. The avatar of a greater deity certainly shouldn't be able to blink and explode the Tarasque.

Edit: Also, I don't understand why people keep bringing up the 3.5 rules. They have as much relevance as the Dresden Files RPG rules in the 5e forums.

Not really true about the infinity. His AC can still be hit, infinite can't be. Damage, obvious differences. Ability scores, obvious differences ( Changes in saving throws, etc.. ). I don't know why you would say something so wrong. Now, where did you read that Orcus and Tiamat and Demogorgon are supposed to be in the weight class of Greater Deities? And this avatar is far from incomprehensible powerful beyond what anything could possibly hope to overcome. Someone already demonstrated an easy takedown with 5-man party and I could demonstrate it with even less supplementary material and manuals than he did soon, not to mention that at the very least, a small contingent of 20 level 20 PC's + NPC's or creatures could put him down effortlessly.

And 3.5 rules are good for reference since there are essentially no rules whatsoever about deities in 5e, whereas the "Deities and Demigods" book from 3.5 has 300 pages of information concerning deities. No, that doesn't mean copying, I didn't copy either ( Otherwise he'd have stuff like HD levels and Salient Divine abilities and so forth ), but it's useful for guidance in some matters.


One: saying "it's compatible with 3.5 rules" means nothing. It is not the same game, the settings are not the same, the gods are not the sames.

Two: the rules are that the avatar getting destroyed does not affect the Greater Deity in any way. Which means that the Greater Deity's avatar getting destroyed would not be an hinderance to the deity, suggesting that they could easily recreate one or at least that they have no reason to care about the destruction.

Three: yes, there is no point in destroying a Greater Deity's avatar.

Four: We know that it's Tiamat at her full power because there are specific methods in the module to make her show up at less than 100% power.

Five: It is never mentioned anywhere that Corellon is a Greater Deity. In fact, the flavor text for Greater Deity and Lesser Deity suggest he's more of the latter.

In fact, we know he is a Lesser Deity, because he is described as interacting with mortals, what Greater Deities don't do.

One: Yes, but that would possibly be the most "canonical" way of deciding something about a deity without making it up yourself

Two: When it's written that an Avatars destruction "has no effect on the God", it is in the context of explaining that the God is not destroyed or harmed in any way. As for how soon a new avatar can be spawned, that's not addressed.

Three: According to your personal interpretation. I find it nonsensical that the DMG would mention slaying a Greater Deity's avatar when a new one just instantly appears in it's place as soon as it happens. That would be equivalent to not slaying the avatar at all. It's nonsense, which is why your personal interpretation is most likely wrong.

Four: Nope. We know there are methods to reduce the power of whatever it is that shows up for the summoning ritual ( Herself on the Prime Material, her avatar, a new manifestation sort in 5e ) .That's irrelevant to Tiamat's power in her home plane in a guaranteed true form.

Five: Correct. In fact, the distinction between lesser, greater or quasi is made about no specific deity in 5e, so we don't know whether any god is greater or lesser. I'm using 3.5 as the next best source. Next up, where is Corellon described as interacting with mortals? Then, you do realize Greater Deities can still interact through avatars or even directly ( Albeit "almost" always don't ) with mortals, right? If your criteria was the case then nobody would be a greater deity. Mystra interacts with Elminster and mortals all the time, she even rescued Elminster on occasions, so you're going to tell me that the Goddess of all Magic is not a greater deity in 5e in your opinion? What about Asmodeus who makes deals with mortals all the time? Corellon is actually the deity who is LEAST involved in mortal affairs out of virtually every single deity in the pantheon.

No, we absolutely don't "know" that he is a Lesser Deity. Please stop passing off your opinions as rules, and stop paraphrasing "DIRECT involvement" to "Interaction" or "Almost always don't" to never. Also, provide sources for what you claim about Corellon before we even discuss this.

[Envyus]

One: saying "it's compatible with 3.5 rules" means nothing. It is not the same game, the settings are not the same, the gods are not the sames.

Two: the rules are that the avatar getting destroyed does not affect the Greater Deity in any way. Which means that the Greater Deity's avatar getting destroyed would not be an hinderance to the deity, suggesting that they could easily recreate one or at least that they have no reason to care about the destruction.

Three: yes, there is no point in destroying a Greater Deity's avatar.

Four: We know that it's Tiamat at her full power because there are specific methods in the module to make her show up at less than 100% power.

Five: It is never mentioned anywhere that Corellon is a Greater Deity. In fact, the flavor text for Greater Deity and Lesser Deity suggest he's more of the latter.

In fact, we know he is a Lesser Deity, because he is described as interacting with mortals, what Greater Deities don't do.

No Corellon is a Greater deity he has always been one. If he was interacting with mortals however it would be through his avatar. Other gods of course can interact with one another.

[Envyus]

What about Asmodeus who makes deals with mortals all the time? Co

Asmodeus is actually a lesser god now.

But Corellon is a greater one. Correct.

[Unoriginal]

Renduaz, while 3.5 can give ideas, the very, very different ways those topics are handled means that it's not the next best thing nor the closest thing from "canonical". It's as relevant as bringing up 2e rules and flavor text about gods or the 4e versions.


No Corellon is a Greater deity he has always been one. If he was interacting with mortals however it would be through his avatar. Other gods of course can interact with one another.

5e changed things, nothing says that Corellon is a Greater deity there.

Though I admit I lack proof that it was Corellon personally and not one of his avatar that is mentioned, contrarily to what I thought I remembered. So, I apologize for that.

[Renduaz]

Renduaz, while 3.5 can give ideas, the very, very different ways those topics are handled means that it's not the next best thing nor the closest thing from "canonical". It's as relevant as bringing up 2e rules and flavor text about gods or the 4e versions.



5e changed things, nothing says that Corellon is a Greater deity there.

Though I admit I lack proof that it was Corellon personally and not one of his avatar that is mentioned, contrarily to what I thought I remembered. So, I apologize for that.

3.5 may be irrelevant about plenty of technical details, but there is a lot it can contribute in other fields. For example, we know from the DMG 5e uses a deity ranking system that is very similar in nature to 3.5 ( But not 4e ), with Greater , Lesser and Quasi-Deities. But we don't know anything about classifying them into their respective ranks in 5e. So we have the option of either doing that with every deity by ourselves, or just import the 3.5 rankings under the assumption that it would match the developer's thinking most of all.

We also knows deities have portfolios, after all, they control some aspect of existence. Let's say that we want to translate that to some abilities they have outside of combat, in which case we can either start from scratch and make up completely brand new unrestricted rules about what a deity can do with his portfolios, or we can consult 3.5 for a general framework of what that might entail, and how each deity's control over his portfolio increase based on his ranking ( Greater, Lesser, Quasi ). How about roleplaying a Deity? How about determining the nature of a Deity's interaction with his Churches, Chosen and worshipers beyond granting cleric spells? How about if you want to make a campaign in which characters can ascend to divinity? 3.5 has a whole chapter on that.

I don't import things like stats or levels from 3.5, as you've noticed. All of Corellon's stats are modeled after what I imagine as a much stronger Tiamat. Only traits are inspired by 3.5 settings.

[EvilAnagram]

Not really true about the infinity. His AC can still be hit, infinite can't be. Damage, obvious differences. Ability scores, obvious differences ( Changes in saving throws, etc.. ). I don't know why you would say something so wrong.
I mean no offense, but you don't seem to understand what I say when I say you effectively change nothing. The fact that you used numbers instead of the infinity symbol is meaningless because you made the numbers so high that nothing can actually negatively affect him. Maybe a fighter hits him. So? A dozen level twenty fighters have as much a chance of killing this avatar as one does, which is to say zero chance. When I say that replacing every number with the infinity symbol effectively changes nothing, I mean that you've used numbers so large that anything any characters do will amount to nothing, so you might as well make them infinite. The result, whether his HP is 1,200 or 1,200,000, is that nothing will kill him. It doesn't matter whether he does 77 damage or 3 billion damage with a longsword strike, the result is that he hits on a 2 and kills everything he hits. The numbers are so large that inflating them doesn't matter anymore. They're too massive for any other increase to matter. The effect is the same, which is that he gets to kill everything no matter what.


Now, where did you read that Orcus and Tiamat and Demogorgon are supposed to be in the weight class of Greater Deities?
There are several official pantheon stories in which Orcus and Demogorgon go toe to toe with the greater deities, usually in a Dawn War setting.


And this avatar is far from incomprehensible powerful beyond what anything could possibly hope to overcome. Someone already demonstrated an easy takedown with 5-man party and I could demonstrate it with even less supplementary material and manuals than he did soon, not to mention that at the very least, a small contingent of 20 level 20 PC's + NPC's or creatures could put him down effortlessly.
A small contingent of twenty level 20 PCs is hilarious. I don't know that I've ever played in a setting in which that many level 20 characters existed, let alone united by a single purpose.

And I doubt the validity of those examples. We're talking about a creature that a level 20 Fighter with a +3 bow and archery style, has a 35% chance of hitting. Right away, those 1,260 HP are pretty safe from the most capable warrior who could possibly go after them. That guy can deal maybe 47 points of damage if he action surges. Then, he dies when the Avatar takes his turn. Or he dies when the Avatar uses a legendary action to one-hit kill him.

Of course, that's if he doesn't fail his save and die without attacking. In fact, any party would have to have a Paladin who had boosted his Charisma for saves in order to keep people safe from his save-or-suck aura.

And a party of twenty doesn't have a chance because Corellon can turn it into a party of 8 as a no-save legendary action. I doubt you could construct a party of 8 that he couldn't kill in ten rounds. Then, he gets to go back to the prime material plane with no time having passed, then do it again.


And 3.5 rules are good for reference since there are essentially no rules whatsoever about deities in 5e, whereas the "Deities and Demigods" book from 3.5 has 300 pages of information concerning deities. No, that doesn't mean copying, I didn't copy either ( Otherwise he'd have stuff like HD levels and Salient Divine abilities and so forth ), but it's useful for guidance in some matters.
Except they're not actually good for reference because it's an entirely different game that operates on different assumptions of power levels.

[JNAProductions]

Just looked at your Barbarian.

His AC should only be 22-10+5 (Con)+5 (Dex)+2 (Magic Items). No idea how you got 31. (Well, he might have a shield you did not list, which could bump it as high as 27, with a +3 version. I'll assume you do have that.)

He hits on a 12, for a 45% hit rate (69.75% if he Reckless Attacks) for 20.5 damage per hit, or 9.225 damage per swing (27.675 damage per round), bumped up to 14.299 per swing (42.896 per round).

The Avatar, meanwhile, hits the Barbarian's battle AC of 31 (27 permanent+2 Shield Of Faith+2 Haste) on a 12 as well. He does 54 slashing (resisted down to 27) and 27 radiant (not resisted) for 54 damage per hit, or 24.3 damage per swing (37.665 if the Barbarian Reckless Attacks), which is 121.5 damage per round (188.325 per round with Reckless). He also does 108 damage with Star Smite, meaning this Barbarian lasts... 2 rounds against him. (Two multiattack routines, one legendary action.)

Of course, the Avatar is FASTER than him, meaning he can just kite him and snipe him to death. It'd take a while, but he certainly could.

Edit: Oh, and he only has a 45% chance of making his Charisma save at the start of the fight, or he's taken out of action.

Edit: Wait, those protection items give save bonuses, I think. 55% chance of making his Charisma save. Still not good odds for what's effectively a save or die.