Zman's 5e Tweaks: E10 Variant V1.0

[Zman]

Welcome all.

Love low to mid levels? Feel like the game loses the right feel once level five spells hit the table and the world changes and not for the better? Find it difficult to make a rational world that works at high levels. Well, have no fear, my Epic 10 Variant is here. The game moves quickly to level five, then slows down, but still allows for regular granular character advancement, and gives a different take on MultiClassing that doesn't cost you your primary class and opens up many potential build and flavorful options.
This variant was created with my Zman's 5e Tweaks in mind.


I welcome all feedback, without this community and feedback from others this wouldn't have come nearly as far as it has nor turned out nearly as well.

Zman's Tweaks: E10 Variant V1.0 (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/By9iD8H0e)


# Zman's 5e Tweaks:E10 Variant V1.0
* Edited 4-18-17

Love low to mid levels? Feel like the game loses the right feel once level five spells hit the table and the world changes and not for the better? Find it difficult to make a rational world that works at high levels. Well, have no fear, my Epic 10 Variant is here. The game moves quickly to level five, then slows down, but still allows for regular granular character advancement, and gives a different take on MultiClassing that doesn't cost you your primary class and opens up many potential build and flavorful options.

This variant was created with my Zman's 5e Tweaks in mind.



## Character Advancement
| Level' | Experience | Proficient Bonus | Bonus Feat/ASI |
|:-----:|:---------| -- | -------- |
| 1 | 0xp | +2 | Feat |
| 2 | 250xp | +2 | |
| 3 | 500xp | +2 | |
| 4 | 1000xp | +2 | |
| 5 | 5000xp | +3 | |
| | 10000xp | +3 | ASI/Feat |
| 6 | 15000xp | +3 | |
| | 25000xp | +3 | ASI/Feat |
| 7 | 35000xp | +3 | |
| | 50000xp | +3 | ASI/Feat |
| 8 | 65000xp | +3 | |
| | 80000xp | +3 | ASI/Feat |
| 9 | 95000xp | +4 | |
| | 110000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
| 10 | 125000xp | +4 | |
| | 140000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
| | 155000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
| | 170000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
| | 185000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
| | 200000xp | +4 | ASI/Feat |
' Your Primary Class level is number listed in the level column.


## Feats
That is a lot of feat and Ability Score Improvements, anything else I can do with them? Ability Score Improvements can be used to increase ability scores as normal or can be used to purchase feats as normal. Aditionally, Feats can now be used to Multiclass and they are the currency used to purchase those additional classes. Ability Score Improvements are still earned as normal from your Primary Class.

```
```

## Multiclassing
Multiclassing is different in the E10 Variant. The standard method of Multiclassing no longer applies, your initial class is your Primary class. Multiclassing is achieved through the purchasing them using Feats. A Secondary Class, and/or Tertiary Class can be purchased in this mannor. Secondary and Tertiary Classes are not required, but must follow still the normal Multiclassing Class prerequisites for Multiclassing. They also grant some of the classes starting proficiences listed in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table.

### Primary Class
Your Primary Class is your starting class. Each time you level up you increase the level of your Primary Class. You no longer get to choose a different class as you level up. Your Primary Class determines your starting equipment, your starting proficiencies, your proficiency bonus, your proficient saves, and your hit points gained at eatch level.

### Secondary Class
At any point a character can choose to spend a Feat to gain a level in a second class to gain the Class Features of that class. You do not gain the classes starting equipment, starting proficiencies, any bonus to your proficiency bonus, additional proficient saves, or hit points for gaining a level in a Secondary class. The first level of a Secondary Class costs two Feats, one to enter and gain the benefits of that class and the second feat must be paid with the next available feat is earned. Additional levels in a secondary class cost only a single feat.

### Tertiary Class
At any point a character that already possesses a Secondary Class can choose to spend a Feat to gain a level in a third class to gain the Class Features of that class. You do not gain the classes starting equipment, starting proficiencies, any bonus to your proficiency bonus, additional proficient saves, or hit points for gaining a level in a Tertiary class. The first level of a Tertiary Class costs two Feats, one to enter and gain the benefits of that class and the second feat must be paid when the next available feat is earned. Additional levels in a tertiary class cost only a single feat.

### Secondary/Tertiary Ability Score Improvements
If you earn an Ability Score Improvement from a Secondary or Tertiary Class it does not function the same way as one earned from a Primary Class. Instead, it grants a +1 to a single Ability score and canot be used to select a feat.

\page

## Spellcasting
By default, in this E10 Variant all spells level 5 and above become rare and difficult to cast rituals and cannot be cast using spellslots. Level 5 spell slots still exist but no longer can be used to cast level five spells, but can instead be used to cast lower level spells at a higher spell level. Optionally, DMs can allow access to 5th level spells as normal if they so choose.

### Multiclassing and Spellslots
If any of your Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary classes grant Spell Slots you use the class that grants the most spell slots to determine how many spell slots your character has available.

### Spells Known and Prepared
Determine spells known and prepared as if each spellcasting class was a single classed character.




Here are some related tweaks that will get their own thread to narrow down the discussion.
Zman's Tweakss: Weapons and Armor V1.0 (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1CmP8SCl)
Zman's Tweaks V2.0 (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/r1cIv8B0g)


Note: Links are to the homebrewery which works best on Chrome. If you aren't using Chrome things may not look right or be downright unuseable.

[Zman]

Change Log:
4-19-17 Reformatted table and some editing for clarity.

[Strill]

So basically casters stop progressing once they reach level 10, since they can't get any more spell slots, and don't have many useful feats, while martial characters cherry-pick all the best feats and multiclassing combos, allowing them to continue progressing. This doesn't strike me as a very well thought out system. I would've expected at the very least a way for casters to get more lower-level spell slots.

Does this table of ability score increases apply on top of your class's normal ASI progression, or are they in addition to it?

My impressions of the consequences of these changes:


Barbarian 6/Battlemaster 3/Hunter 3 is much stronger than most other builds.
Monks are garbage since they don't have much multiclass synergy
Valor Bards, Bladesingers, and Blade Pact Warlocks are OP because they get the same extra attack that Fighters get, allowing them to have maximum spell slot progression, along with mostly the same martial performance as a Fighter, especially once they take Battlemaster 3.
Casters are obligated to multiclass into Warlock if they want more spell slots.
Primary Wizards and Sorcerers are garbage because they have nowhere good to multiclass at level 10 except Warlock. They can't get more ordinary spell slots, and they don't have any armor or weapon proficiencies that would let them get use out of a martial multiclass.
Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are garbage because spell slot progression doesn't stack.

[Zman]

So basically casters stop progressing once they reach level 10, since they can't get any more spell slots, and don't have many useful feats, while martial characters cherry-pick all the best feats and multiclassing combos, allowing them to continue progressing. This doesn't strike me as a very well thought out system. I would've expected at the very least a way for casters to get more lower-level spell slots.

Does this table of ability score increases apply on top of your class's normal ASI progression, or are they in addition to it?

My impressions of the consequences of these changes:


Barbarian 6/Battlemaster 3/Hunter 3 is much stronger than most other builds.Not a possible combination. A level 6 Barbarian has at most 3 feats available, one from class one from 1st level, one from the 5/1 bonus. So, you could have Barbarian 6//Battlemaster 2 at most.
Monks are garbage since they don't have much multiclass synergy Not entirely true at all.
Valor Bards, Bladesingers, and Blade Pact Warlocks are OP because they get the same extra attack that Fighters get, allowing them to have maximum spell slot progression, along with mostly the same martial performance as a Fighter, especially once they take Battlemaster 3.
Casters are obligated to multiclass into Warlock if they want more spell slots.
Primary Wizards and Sorcerers are garbage because they have nowhere good to multiclass at level 10 except Warlock. They can't get more ordinary spell slots, and they don't have any armor or weapon proficiencies that would let them get use out of a martial multiclass.
Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters are garbage because spell slot progression doesn't stack.


Thank you for the reply.


Ok, I started going through this but realized there is a failure in communication and you aren't understanding how the system works.


You cannot multiclass your primary class. You will progress from levels 1-10 in that class, it cannot be multiclassed.

You do gain those feats listed as bonus feats/ASI at the listed levels/sublevels they are in addition to the 2-3 you will recieve through the 10 levels of your primary class.

Purchasing multiclassing costs feasts, two for the first level of class abilities of that class, one for each level after in that class. This reduces your ability to spend your ASIs on abilities and has an opportunity cost.


This is meant to be used in conjuction with my main 5e Tweaks which has more balanced feats and a large number of added feats.

[bid]

I'm confused.

- test 1
At level 1, I get a feat
At level 4, I get a feat/ASI, which I spend to be 4/1.
At 5kxp, I reach level 5.
At 10kxp, I get an extra feat which I lose.
At level 8, I get a feat/ASI.
At level 10, I'm stuck since I don't get any feats

- test 2
At level 1, I get a feat
At level 4, I get a feat/ASI
At level 8, I get a feat/ASI, which I spend to be 8/1.
I immediately gain and lose the 10kxp feat.
At level 10, I'm stuck since I don't get any feats

How do I get a second level in?


EDIT: the /1 /2 /3 is confusing. I think you actually mean you get an extra feat/ASI at the middle of each level. Just leave it blank as is serves no meaning.

[Zman]

I'm confused.

- test 1
At level 1, I get a feat
At level 4, I get a feat/ASI, which I spend to be 4/1.
At 5kxp, I reach level 5.
At 10kxp, I get an extra feat which I lose.
At level 8, I get a feat/ASI.
At level 10, I'm stuck since I don't get any feats

- test 2
At level 1, I get a feat
At level 4, I get a feat/ASI
At level 8, I get a feat/ASI, which I spend to be 8/1.
I immediately gain and lose the 10kxp feat.
At level 10, I'm stuck since I don't get any feats

How do I get a second level in?


EDIT: the /1 /2 /3 is confusing. I think you actually mean you get an extra feat/ASI at the middle of each level. Just leave it blank as is serves no meaning.

Your edit is correct, the slash is confusing. I meant it to show how many bonsut ASI/Feats you'll have total excluding class ASI.

And at anytime you can spend another Feat to increase that Secondary class level.


I will reword it and try and make it clearer.



Edit: Also make sure you are viewing in chrome, other browsers will shift off the page the whole right column of txt explaining much of what there are questions on.

[Strill]

Thank you for the reply.


Ok, I started going through this but realized there is a failure in communication and you aren't understanding how the system works.


You cannot multiclass your primary class. You will progress from levels 1-10 in that class, it cannot be multiclassed.

You do gain those feats listed as bonus feats/ASI at the listed levels/sublevels they are in addition to the 2-3 you will recieve through the 10 levels of your primary class.

Purchasing multiclassing costs feasts, two for the first level of class abilities of that class, one for each level after in that class. This reduces your ability to spend your ASIs on abilities and has an opportunity cost.Ok, I still think that Barbarian/Battlemaster/Hunter is way stronger than most any other option, simply because each class provides direct synergy, continuously improving what your character is already good at. Casters, on the other hand, are forced to go for a Gish build because they quickly run out of ways to improve their spellcasting.



This is meant to be used in conjuction with my main 5e Tweaks which has more balanced feats and a large number of added feats.
I've read your 5e tweaks, and I still stand by what I said. You have a couple of extremely powerful (probably OP) feats for blasting casters, like Spellslinger and Volatile caster, but the only feat for any other caster is Spell Savant. Granted, an extra spell slot up to 5th level is pretty good, but that's only one feat, and once you take it you're out of luck for spellcasting progression unless you plan to multiclass Warlock.

[Zman]

Ok, I still think that Barbarian/Battlemaster/Hunter is way stronger than most any other option, simply because each class provides direct synergy, continuously improving what your character is already good at. Casters, on the other hand, are forced to go for a Gish build because they quickly run out of ways to improve their spellcasting.



I've read your 5e tweaks, and I still stand by what I said. You have a couple of extremely powerful (probably OP) feats for blasting casters, like Spellslinger and Volatile caster, but the only feat for any other caster is Spell Savant. Granted, an extra spell slot up to 5th level is pretty good, but that's only one feat, and once you take it you're out of luck for spellcasting progression unless you plan to multiclass Warlock.

It is definitely a strong synergistic class combination, but there are opportunity costs involved. Battle master 3 as a secondary class requires 4 feats, so as fast as they could do it would be at the half level between six and seven.

1st: 1st level Fighter
4th: 1st level Fighter(continued)
5.ASI: 2nd level Fighter
6.ASI: 3rd level Fighter(Battlemaster)
7.ASI: 1st level Ranger
8th: 1st level Ranger(continued)
8.ASI: 2nd level Ranger
9.ASI: 3rd level Ranger(Hunter)

Barbarian9//Battlemaster3//Hunter3 with likely 16str.

So between 9th level and 10th level this build finally comes online and the character in question hasn't spent a Feat or ASI on anything but Secondary and Tertiary class levels. No Sharpshooter, no Great weapon Master, No resilient Wisdom, no 20 Str, no boosted Con etc.

Yes, it's a very powerful build, but the opportunity cost is also very high. You've got a likely 16 Strength character walking around with a ton of synergistic class features, IMO it's isn't that far off the aimed for balance point.

Sure, at max level it is likely one of the best builds, but the required opportunity cost to get there is awefully high.


OP fears, please respond to the thread with your concerns so we can get the discussion in the right place. I'd like to know why you feel they are OP.

I think you're looking at it through the lense of England game, not through most of where players will be. Even with 2 ASI for Int, one Feat for resilient Con or Warcaster, and Spell savant, you're at four which is 1st, 4th, 5.ASI, and 6.ASI. So you're between seventh and either level or through a large portion of character progression before you'd be needing more. Can't forget boosting Dex, boosting Con, or the other more flavorful feats out there.

Sorcerer for Metamagic is also a good multiclass. But that's another 4Feats and gets you to your first Feat after 10th.

There are tons of options, and Sure by end game a Wizard is running out of ways to boost their raw power, but it isn't like martial date powering that far ahead either. I mean a Watery Sphere or banishment or greater Invisibility are still amazing and dominating encounters.

[Strill]

It is definitely a strong synergistic class combination, but there are opportunity costs involved. Battle master 3 as a secondary class requires 4 feats, so as fast as they could do it would be at the half level between six and seven.

1st: 1st level Fighter
4th: 1st level Fighter(continued)
5.ASI: 2nd level Fighter
6.ASI: 3rd level Fighter(Battlemaster)
7.ASI: 1st level Ranger
8th: 1st level Ranger(continued)
8.ASI: 2nd level Ranger
9.ASI: 3rd level Ranger(Hunter)

Barbarian9//Battlemaster3//Hunter3 with likely 16str.

So between 9th level and 10th level this build finally comes online and the character in question hasn't spent a Feat or ASI on anything but Secondary and Tertiary class levels. No Sharpshooter, no Great weapon Master, No resilient Wisdom, no 20 Str, no boosted Con etc.

Yes, it's a very powerful build, but the opportunity cost is also very high. You've got a likely 16 Strength character walking around with a ton of synergistic class features, IMO it's isn't that far off the aimed for balance point.

Sure, at max level it is likely one of the best builds, but the required opportunity cost to get there is awefully high.

If you go for 20 STR and one Feat before you go for Battlemaster, you start getting that power much faster.


There are tons of options, and Sure by end game a Wizard is running out of ways to boost their raw power, but it isn't like martial date powering that far ahead either. I mean a Watery Sphere or banishment or greater Invisibility are still amazing and dominating encounters.

But you see Martials ARE powering ahead. Fundamentally in D&D, Martial characters are good at withstanding a long gauntlet of fights. They do well consistently over a long period of time. Casters are far ahead of martial characters while their spells last, but once they run out, they're mostly dead weight.

In your rules, however, Martial characters continue to gain in HP and damage past level 10, while spellcasters don't gain any more spell slots. So while Martial characters are able to withstand more and more fights each day, Spellcasters still peter out at the same time they did at level 10.


Sorcerer for Metamagic is also a good multiclass. But that's another 4Feats and gets you to your first Feat after 10th. I honestly don't think that's very good at all, since you don't get any more spell slots. You're getting pretty much nothing from your first three feats.

That's not to mention how cringey and forced it is that half the spellcasters in your party would just "happen" to find out that they're also the descendent of a dragon.

[Zman]

If you go for 20 STR and one Feat before you go for Battlemaster, you start getting that power much faster.
Its a delay of three Feat/ASI, so instead of unlocking Battlemaster at 6.ASI, they do it at 8.ASI, or four experience thresholds later. I don't call that "much faster".


But you see Martials ARE powering ahead. Fundamentally in D&D, Martial characters are good at withstanding a long gauntlet of fights. They do well consistently over a long period of time. Casters are far ahead of martial characters while their spells last, but once they run out, they're mostly dead weight.

In your rules, however, Martial characters continue to gain in HP and damage past level 10, while spellcasters don't gain any more spell slots. So while Martial characters are able to withstand more and more fights each day, Spellcasters still peter out at the same time they did at level 10.

I think we're having another misunderstanding, you only gain HP from your Peimary class, no character ends up with more than 10 hit dice.

A level 10 Barbarian who bumped his Con to 20 and just picked feats has 125 Hitpoints.

A level 10 Barbarian with 14 Con that picked up Battlemaster 3 and Hunter 3 has only 95 Hit Points.

The Secondary and Tertiary classes don't grant HP, just the class Features.

I honestly don't think that's very good at all, since you don't get any more spell slots. You're getting pretty much nothing from your first three feats.

That's not to mention how cringey and forced it is that half the spellcasters in your party would just "happen" to find out that they're also the descendent of a dragon.

Honestly, for this variant I need to add the ability to take feats like Resilient, Spell savant, and a skilled etc multiple times. I should add that to my main list of tweaks.

Metamagic adds versatility, and can at least make one or two spellslits out of the points.

Yes, the Wizard isn't getting more slots, but as I pointed out before itnisnt like Martials are getting more HP either. I think that might change the dynamic.

[Jerrykhor]

No proper 5th level spells? Utter bollocks.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I think you're looking at it through the lense of England game, not through most of where players will be.

...I'm assuming that's not what you meant to write.

[Zman]

No proper 5th level spells? Utter bollocks.

Yes, the reasoning was 5th level is where some game changing spells hit the table. Raise Dead is one of them. Scrying is another. Teleportation Circle. Etc.

There is a big shift at level four spells, and some are problematic, but IMO they are more manageable. 5th really changes the dynamic and feel of the game.

I toyed with making this an E8, but the last level of your class being an ASI just felt underwhelming, E10 fit better. The compromise instead of selectively banning certain 5th level spells like Raise dead, was to relegate all 5th and above spells to DM determined rituals, taking them out of common circulation especially considering how much of the game is meant to take place at that relative power level.

Of course, anyonenusing this complex allow 5th level spell, it'll change the feel of the game but I'll work.


...I'm assuming that's not what you meant to write.

Nope, no offense to those across the pond, I meant "endgame".

[Vorpalchicken]

I think a hard cap of level 8 would be preferable to this.

[Zman]

Lets take a step back and look at Level 5 spells and when they get them. Level 5 spells represent a significant bump in power for casters, look at Animate Objects, look at Raise Dead, etc.

Martial characters are not receiving any reasonably comparable bump in power at or around those levels.

Is gaining access to 5th level spells at 9th level equivalent to...

Barbarian's Brutal Critical and +1 Rage Damage?
Fighter's Indomitable(One Use)?
Monk's +1 Ki and Unarmored Movement Improvement?
Rogue's +1d6 Sneak attack and Archtype Feature

Sure, Paladins and Rangers gain access to 3rd level spells, and that represents a solid improvement to those classes, but full casters gained those level of spells four levels earlier.

Full casters still gain some benefits at those levels so they aren't "dead".
Bards gain a spell known, a 4th level slot, a 5th level slot, and a song of rest improvement.
Clerics only gain a 4th level slot and a 5th level slot. They fair the worst under these changes.
Sorcerer gains a spell known, a sorcery point, a 4th level slot, and a 5th level slot.
Warlocks gain a spell known, an invocation known, and both their spell slots become 5th level.
Wizards gain two spells for their spellbook, a 4th level slot, a 5th level slot, and their arcane recovery recovers an additional spell level.


If anything removal of 5th level spells at these levels enhances game balance as well as maintaining the low to mid level feel of the game that begins to be overwhelmed. 5e has much less a linear fighter quadratic wizard problem, but it is beginning to emerge around these levels.

[mephnick]

No proper 5th level spells? Utter bollocks.

5th spells level I can deal with. 7th level spells are where any semblance of a working setting falls apart. I generally cap my settings at 12.

Raise dead is a problem but at least it isn't raising people from a century ago.

[Zman]

5th spells level I can deal with. 7th level spells are where any semblance of a working setting falls apart. I generally cap my settings at 12.

Raise dead is a problem but at least it isn't raising people from a century ago.

5th is manageable, yes, but IMO the strains begin to be felt.

Yeah, 7th level is the end of any attempts at maintaining a cohesive world.






Change Log:
4-19-17 Reformatted table and some editing for clarity.

I hope it is easier to understand how the variant functions. Thank you all for your feedback so far.

[Flashy]

I toyed with making this an E8, but the last level of your class being an ASI just felt underwhelming, E10 fit better.

This is still true for rogues, FYI. Their 10 feature is a bonus ASI. If you want to avoid that it might be worth homebrewing a new feature or just moving Reliable Talent from 11 to 10 under these rules.

[Zman]

This is still true for rogues, FYI. Their 10 feature is a bonus ASI. If you want to avoid that it might be worth homebrewing a new feature or just moving Reliable Talent from 11 to 10 under these rules.

I am aware. Fighters also have a bonus ASI, and if you're using my other Tweaks Monks get an additional one at 10 as well. It being true for one or two classes is different than being true for every single class. It isn't perfect, but IMO its better to end at 10 where most classes gain some kind of flavorful ability, subclass feature, etc.

I could swap out the Rogue ASI, but I'd like to not reference the specific classes at all in this document.

[bt_uytya]

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to learn more.

But firstly, some notes on presentation.

1) The general idea isn't clear from the document alone. I think before the table you need an introductory paragraph describing a general idea (you get feats between some levels, 5th levels spell are restricted, multiclassing works differently).

At the first, I had a wrong idea on how to read the table, so some explanation about it would be nice as well.

2) There's no examples. As you can see from this thread, people are confused about some subjects, especially multiclassing.

You talk that E10 "opens up many potential build and flavorful options". Such as? Could you elaborate?

3) I suggest giving "sublevels" names. Maybe something like "level 4, level 4.5, level 5, level 5.5" or "level 10, level 10a, level 10b, level 10c"? Currently, it's a bit awkward to talk about character advancement: "this build comes online between levels 4 and 5".

4) Am I allowed to spend a lvl 1 feat to multiclass? This isn't clear.

5) Does cantrip damage scale with level?

OK, let's move on to the "why" questions.


If you earn an Ability Score Improvement from a Secondary or Tertiary Class it does not function the same way as one earned from a Primary Class. Instead, it grants a +1 to a single Ability score and canot be used to select a feat.

Why? This encourages 1-3 level dips and discourages multiclassing further. If I want to get a level 7 Fighter feature, I have to push through 2 ASIs which are effectively a dead levels for me (make it a three dead levels if I already have Extra Attack from my primary class).


If any of your Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary classes grant Spell Slots you use the class that grants the most spell slots to determine how many spell slots your character has available.
What was the rationale behind this? It makes half-casters and third-casters unattractive as secondary classes and limits options of magic users.

[Vaz]

Most games end at level 12. What does this variant do, exactly?

[Laserlight]

Most games end at level 12. What does this variant do, exactly?

You're level capped at 10. which makes both worldbuilding and encounter building easier; but you still get advancement after you've hit the level cap. Also, if you're going, say, Hexblade/Sorc multiclass, you don't have to sacrifice Hexblade levels in order to get Sorc levels.

[bt_uytya]

And, I imagine, the abundance of ASIs/feats changes the playing field in at least two ways:

1) ASIs are plentiful. This makes a lot of MAD builds viable, since you can reasonably expect your important stats to be capped before your build becomes irrelevant.
2) Getting a lot of feats is easier. Do you want to be a paladin who combines Martial Adept, Elven Accuracy, Savage Attacker and Polearm Mastery? You totally can. At level 5.5, if you so desire.

The alternative multiclassing rules seem to make 1-3 level dips more attractive, but I not quite sure I understand the intention about it.

[mephnick]

Most games end at level 12. What does this variant do, exactly?

It also caps the world at level 10, which is the important part. It's about creating a more cohesive world, not just limiting the players. No high level NPCs or magic to bail the world out.

[Zman]

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to learn more.

But firstly, some notes on presentation.

1) The general idea isn't clear from the document alone. I think before the table you need an introductory paragraph describing a general idea (you get feats between some levels, 5th levels spell are restricted, multiclassing works differently).

At the first, I had a wrong idea on how to read the table, so some explanation about it would be nice as well.

2) There's no examples. As you can see from this thread, people are confused about some subjects, especially multiclassing.

You talk that E10 "opens up many potential build and flavorful options". Such as? Could you elaborate?

3) I suggest giving "sublevels" names. Maybe something like "level 4, level 4.5, level 5, level 5.5" or "level 10, level 10a, level 10b, level 10c"? Currently, it's a bit awkward to talk about character advancement: "this build comes online between levels 4 and 5".

4) Am I allowed to spend a lvl 1 feat to multiclass? This isn't clear.

5) Does cantrip damage scale with level?

OK, let's move on to the "why" questions.


Why? This encourages 1-3 level dips and discourages multiclassing further. If I want to get a level 7 Fighter feature, I have to push through 2 ASIs which are effectively a dead levels for me (make it a three dead levels if I already have Extra Attack from my primary class).


What was the rationale behind this? It makes half-casters and third-casters unattractive as secondary classes and limits options of magic users.

Glad you're intrigued!

I should give it more of an in depth explanation. I apologize if it was confusing.

It could definitely use more explanations and example builds. For instance, think of a Fighter Rogue. You can either be a Fighter who spends s couple feats to pick up a touch of Rogue, or you can be a Rouge who pickus up a bit of Fighter. And you can do this starting with your first level feat so you can be playing a Fighter/Rogue from level 1. Compare to normal multiclassing on stock 5e where you have to delay your main class and often handicap yourself for flavor. Here, far more niche combinations and eclectic builds become vialbe without sacrificing game balance.

In my current game we have a Half Orc Abjuror who spent their first feat on Fighter1. So, they walk around in medium armor, wield a greatsword, attack with Greenflame Blade, and have Great Weapon Master. It captures "Battlemage" quite well. And all it took was sacrificing the 1st level feat and then the 4th level feat.

The sublevels could uses a better name, I tried 4.5 etc and it didn't seem to work. At my table we refer to them as a .5. I'm open to suggestions.

You absolutely can spend your free first level feat, I beleive I spell that out. I should make it explicitely clear if I did not. It is how you can really play some more niche builds right out of the gate without having to wait. Ie the Fighter Rogue, You get to start the game as one and don't ahve to wait until level 2 to pick up Rogue... then delayign extra attack etc and gimping yourself in some respects. So then you would play Fighter to level 5 then pick up Rogue to make the build work. It just works right out of the gate with the right feel from level 1, you are a tricky Fighter who can pick a lock if he needs to.

Cantrips still scale as normal based off your level, so only getting an increase at 5th since 11th level does not exist in E10. At 5th level character hit their stride and their power growth slows down. The game is accelerated to that point making levels 1-4 quick, then slowing the game down while still offer more incremental advancement levels 5-10.


And, I imagine, the abundance of ASIs/feats changes the playing field in at least two ways:

1) ASIs are plentiful. This makes a lot of MAD builds viable, since you can reasonably expect your important stats to be capped before your build becomes irrelevant.
2) Getting a lot of feats is easier. Do you want to be a paladin who combines Martial Adept, Elven Accuracy, Savage Attacker and Polearm Mastery? You totally can. At level 5.5, if you so desire.

The alternative multiclassing rules seem to make 1-3 level dips more attractive, but I not quite sure I understand the intention about it.


You would most definitely be right. MAD builds are suddenly far more viable than they were otherwise. You can definitely combine feats, but as this is meant to be used with my Tweaks there are many more feats available, and they are better balanced that stock. So, despite having more feats available, things don't feel "broken".

1-3 level "dips" aren't overly common, since it costs Two Feats to pick up the first level of multiclass, a 3 level "dip" takes 4 total feats. That is no small potatoes and is balanced well with opportunity cost.


Most games end at level 12. What does this variant do, exactly?


You're level capped at 10. which makes both worldbuilding and encounter building easier; but you still get advancement after you've hit the level cap. Also, if you're going, say, Hexblade/Sorc multiclass, you don't have to sacrifice Hexblade levels in order to get Sorc levels.


It also caps the world at level 10, which is the important part. It's about creating a more cohesive world, not just limiting the players. No high level NPCs or magic to bail the world out.

Exactly! It REALLY changes the world in which the players interact. Also, the game accelerates through levels 1-5, then slows down considerably and catches its pacing at leve 5 or so. Steady measurable advancement, but ot exponential power growth. So your character hits a sweet spot of power and spends most of the game as a fleshed out character.





Thanks for the feedback everyone! My table has been running this E10 variant since I created it and honestly I can't see us going back. Players have been talking about all the other ideas they have for E10. Only one really misses the higher levels... though he is a newer player and really doen'st like higher levels, just the idea of them haha.

We also use my full Tweaks and couple of changes that haven't made it into them yet ie couple tweaks to overused spells. We have a....

Half Orc Abjuror6//Fighter1
Half Elf Paladin6 with Powerful Build who one hands a Maul
Dragonborn Barbarian6//Sorcerer1 with Wings and a real thing for fire
Wood Elf Moon Druid6
Human Battlemaster6 who is looking at MCing Rogue for more versatility and non combat abilities.

Only two of the five players have used the MCing rules under E10, but every one but the Paladin has eyed MCing options.

[Vaz]

I personally am enjoying a soon to be epic campaign where we've done away with a lot of the nonsense of 5e, such as the high encounter rate, limited magic items through attunement (now it is your Prof modifier limit, and many homebrew items allow extra attunement slots or combine to make armour sets which take up 1) and just started turning everything up to 11.

I guess it's a YMMV thing and I'm very happy with this game, but it requires a lot more time to prepare for than a typical game on all sides.

Glad you dudes are enjoying this rule set but it's not for me :)

[Zman]

I personally am enjoying a soon to be epic campaign where we've done away with a lot of the nonsense of 5e, such as the high encounter rate, limited magic items through attunement (now it is your Prof modifier limit, and many homebrew items allow extra attunement slots or combine to make armour sets which take up 1) and just started turning everything up to 11.

I guess it's a YMMV thing and I'm very happy with this game, but it requires a lot more time to prepare for than a typical game on all sides.

Glad you dudes are enjoying this rule set but it's not for me :)

Its all about what trips your trigger. Personally, I'm not a fan of literally anything you said. Bigger numbers don't enhance the game for me, I like the mid to lower mid levels the best and designed this variant to emphasize and enhance them.

There is no "right" way to play the game, but IMO if you like low to mid better than high my variant might be for you. If you like epicness, it in'st for you.

[Easy_Lee]

I like this overall, but have some serious concerns.

Firstly, there are a lot of iconic features that classes don't receive until after level 10. Monks have quite a few in that range, for example. And there's no reason why classes shouldn't still receive their capstones. Instead of doing what you've done here, I would squish each class down to ten levels, rebalance certain features such as quivering palm or hurl through hell, and give casters approximately twice as many spell slots at each level to compensate.

Second, I don't think multiclassing at a cost of two feats is balanced. The features you gain are potentially worth much more than that. It also makes it basically impossible to do a variety of popular multiclassing combinations.

Multiclassing is tricky to balance, but I think one of the following would be preferable:

Allow the system to work as it currently does.
Change multiclassing entirely such that you trade features from one class for features from another, equivalent exchange.

I think the premise is sound, but this needs more work to be a complete system.

[Theodoxus]

Hey Zman - been reading your tweaks with an eye for emulating something similar. Have a few questions/comments/pointers...

1) Why not just use a 20 level system, all you're doing with half-levels is essentially cutting the game in half, but then repopulating the levels. Seems easiest to just call each level by what it is, 1-20; draft up a spell slot table that reflects the progression you've generated (I believe it would look like):



Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
2
-
-
-
-


2nd
3
-
-
-
-


3rd
4
2
-
-
-


4th
4
3
-
-
-


5th
4
3
-
-
-


6th
4
3
2
-
-


7th
4
3
2
-
-


8th
4
3
3
-
-


9th
4
3
3
-
-


10th
4
3
3
1
-


11th
4
3
3
1
-


12th
4
3
3
2
-


13th
4
3
3
2
-


14th
4
3
3
2
1


15th
4
3
3
2
1


16th
4
3
3
2
2


17th
4
3
3
2
2


18th
4
3
3
2
2


19th
4
3
3
2
2


20th
4
3
3
2
2



2) Each class's table could then be stretched out to fit the 20 levels in 10 mentality. This would allow you address some of Easy Lee's issue with higher level, but underpowered options, like say the Monk's Tongue of Sun and Moon or the Druid's Beast Spells without also necessarily including the Cleric's 100% chance of Divine Intervention, or the Sorcerer's flight options... (or whatever- those were just possible examples).

3) Under the Weapons and Armor, you're keeping the laughably non-existent "studded leather" which is just jacked plate (a medium armor at worst). I'd recommend adding Padded back in and upping Leather to 12+Dex. You could include Studded Leather between Hide and Chain, providing the same protection; reduce Hide to Dex+2 for 10g, Studded at Dex+3 for 45g. Provides options for both Dex break points and gold costs between Hide, Studded and Chain.

4) I don't know if you played 7th Age (I haven't, but had a DM who did) and used a rule from there allowing you to sacrifice your shield for reducing damage. The rule the DM used was 100% mitigation; I think in general, damage resistance works better. Especially bringing in tower shields and what not. Could make it as simple as "sacrifice your shield for damage resistance against one attack, losing your shield in the process" to as complex as "your shield has a number of hit points = gold cost, you can use your shield to reduce half the damage from the attack by up to it's HPs against 1 attack. If the shield takes more damage than it has currently, it reduces the damage you take by the HP sacrificed and shatters, any additional damage carries over." You could rule that Mending would restore HP lost, but not a shattered shield... Anyway, I found the rule fun - ymmv :)

5) As far a multiclassing, I think it would be interesting to limit main classes to the 4 primary: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, and allow feat based multiclassing for the others... Though it does accidentally leaves out charisma classes... Perhaps Wizard or Sorcerer? But that's probably something you're not interested in... just putting it out there though. :smallbiggrin:

[Zman]

I like this overall, but have some serious concerns.

Firstly, there are a lot of iconic features that classes don't receive until after level 10. Monks have quite a few in that range, for example. And there's no reason why classes shouldn't still receive their capstones. Instead of doing what you've done here, I would squish each class down to ten levels, rebalance certain features such as quivering palm or hurl through hell, and give casters approximately twice as many spell slots at each level to compensate.

Second, I don't think multiclassing at a cost of two feats is balanced. The features you gain are potentially worth much more than that. It also makes it basically impossible to do a variety of popular multiclassing combinations.

Multiclassing is tricky to balance, but I think one of the following would be preferable:

Allow the system to work as it currently does.
Change multiclassing entirely such that you trade features from one class for features from another, equivalent exchange.

I think the premise is sound, but this needs more work to be a complete system.

Thanks for responding Easy_Lee PS My name is actually Lee, haha.

I completely agree with your points about iconic features after 10th level. And honestly if I would have done that, but due to the greatly increased size and scope of that project I've held off. It is essentially how I made E10 classes for 3.5 years ago. Cut the classes down and tried to keep their iconic features if possible or tone them to make them palatable.

Not sure about the doubling of spell slots. I think that throws resource management out the window.

Multiclassing: Sure, some of the class features are potentially better than feats, but honestly a feat for a level of class features isn't too far off in most cases. And the double cost of the first level makes it a commitment, which is fair as the first level of a class is generally one of the best from a class feature perspective.

I mean look at what spending two feats for level 1 rogue gets you, a skill, expertise, and a d6 sneak attack. Expertise is basically a feat, and skill plus a d6 sneak attack isn't far off from another one. That comes to be a reasonable cost. Spending another feat on Rogue 2 gets you Cunning action which IMO is a really good buy. Maybe a bit too good. Spending a 4th feat on Rogue 3 gets you another 1d6 sneak attack and an archetype feature, solidly in the range of what a feat could give. That trend holds pretty true for most classes, players will strongly be weighing between ASIs to max out their primary stat(s), feats to enhance their main schtick, multiclassing, and spending them on fun or non optimal multiclassing or feats. Thanks to the ability cap of 20 players can't devote ASI's ad nauseum to their primary stats, and have plenty of feats to work with. It makes niche builds much easier to use, and thanks to feat selection there are diminishing returns for players trying top optimize one particular part of their character.

Sure, there are some classic multiclasses that are no longer vialbe, but those were more multi classes primarily meant for mechanical benefit. Look at the Sorcadin, take the foundation of Paladin for smite, devote to Sorcerer for maximize spell slots. Well, now you are either a Sorcerer to picks up a bit of Paladin. Still very possible to devote devote at least three feats to it for Smite and will play quite closely to the classic Sorcadin. Possible to be Sorcerer4//Paladin2 at level 4.5. So, it actually comes online sooner in many respects than the classic multiclass. The other option is Paladin//Sorcerer. Sure, they won't gain more spell slots this way unless they devote the vast majority of their feats to it, but Devoting 2 feats gives Sorcerer 1, which if Draconic gives an additional Hit point, unarmored AC, and access to the Sorcerer's spell list for the first level spells and cantrips. Not bad for the cost of two feats, compare to Magic Initiate for two Cantrips and a single 1st level spell casting a day. Spending a third feat on Sorcerer 2 gives you Sorcerery points and effectively another 1st level spell per short rest(if using my tweaks, just a single slot if not). Not great for a feat, but with my tweaks very usable for a Paladin. Spending a fourth feat on Sorcerery 3 gives you Metamagic, which is solid for a Feat.

What iconic Multiclasses won't work with this method? Flavor and feel wise I don't think any are really out of bounds. Mechanics wise, sure, it is harder to optimize some mechanics that were crucial to some multiclasses.

What it does bring is the ability to open classes up to different concepts that normally wouldn't be touched with standard multiclassing. For instance, a Fighter/Bard. That really isn't a build you'd seen in normal play, delaying extra attack means it out of bounds till after 5th level, and its hard to every justify dropping Fighter for Bard. But, under E10, you can look at giving up 2, 3, or even 4 featss to pick up 1-3 levels of bard. Could really give a Fighter the leadership feel and odes so without gimping their primary class. Each character is a particular iconic class/archtype through and through, but they have the ability to pick up a touch of other classes to round out mechanics or flavor feel.

[Zman]

Hey Zman - been reading your tweaks with an eye for emulating something similar. Have a few questions/comments/pointers...

1) Why not just use a 20 level system, all you're doing with half-levels is essentially cutting the game in half, but then repopulating the levels. Seems easiest to just call each level by what it is, 1-20; draft up a spell slot table that reflects the progression you've generated (I believe it would look like):



Level
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th


1st
2
-
-
-
-


2nd
3
-
-
-
-


3rd
4
2
-
-
-


4th
4
3
-
-
-


5th
4
3
-
-
-


6th
4
3
2
-
-


7th
4
3
2
-
-


8th
4
3
3
-
-


9th
4
3
3
-
-


10th
4
3
3
1
-


11th
4
3
3
1
-


12th
4
3
3
2
-


13th
4
3
3
2
-


14th
4
3
3
2
1


15th
4
3
3
2
1


16th
4
3
3
2
2


17th
4
3
3
2
2


18th
4
3
3
2
2


19th
4
3
3
2
2


20th
4
3
3
2
2



2) Each class's table could then be stretched out to fit the 20 levels in 10 mentality. This would allow you address some of Easy Lee's issue with higher level, but underpowered options, like say the Monk's Tongue of Sun and Moon or the Druid's Beast Spells without also necessarily including the Cleric's 100% chance of Divine Intervention, or the Sorcerer's flight options... (or whatever- those were just possible examples).

3) Under the Weapons and Armor, you're keeping the laughably non-existent "studded leather" which is just jacked plate (a medium armor at worst). I'd recommend adding Padded back in and upping Leather to 12+Dex. You could include Studded Leather between Hide and Chain, providing the same protection; reduce Hide to Dex+2 for 10g, Studded at Dex+3 for 45g. Provides options for both Dex break points and gold costs between Hide, Studded and Chain.

4) I don't know if you played 7th Age (I haven't, but had a DM who did) and used a rule from there allowing you to sacrifice your shield for reducing damage. The rule the DM used was 100% mitigation; I think in general, damage resistance works better. Especially bringing in tower shields and what not. Could make it as simple as "sacrifice your shield for damage resistance against one attack, losing your shield in the process" to as complex as "your shield has a number of hit points = gold cost, you can use your shield to reduce half the damage from the attack by up to it's HPs against 1 attack. If the shield takes more damage than it has currently, it reduces the damage you take by the HP sacrificed and shatters, any additional damage carries over." You could rule that Mending would restore HP lost, but not a shattered shield... Anyway, I found the rule fun - ymmv :)

5) As far a multiclassing, I think it would be interesting to limit main classes to the 4 primary: Cleric, Fighter, Rogue and Wizard, and allow feat based multiclassing for the others... Though it does accidentally leaves out charisma classes... Perhaps Wizard or Sorcerer? But that's probably something you're not interested in... just putting it out there though. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the reply!

1. Sure, That is kind of what I'm doing, and I could rewrite each class that way, but honestly its a ton of work. This is kind of exactly what I am doing, just without doing all the legwork of rewriting every class table and subsequent class ability descriptions that refer to levels.

2. Yep, and if I were looking for a larger project this is exactly what I would have done. What I wrote was a patch to plug in and use the existing classes without having to write whole new ones. If I were making Zman's Dnd, this is pretty much exactly how classes would be constructed.

3. Not bad, and I'm guessing historically more accurate than the existing table. I will keep in in mind for further revisions of the table. Mechanically it'd be just fine and in some ways its just shuffling names around. Honestly going to Padded and Leather at 11+ and 12+ and just getting rid of studded leather would work too. One thing I didn't want to do was make all existing MM entries with armor too obsolete which is why I was somewhat resistant to doing what you suggest. I still might do it, and I like where you're going with it.

4. Not a bad mechanic idea wise, but I find it hard to see it as an easy implementation. IMO if you're going this way you might want rules for sundering blades etc. Item HP etc feels likes its going to get clunky and unwieldy.

5. You could do that, but IMO it greatly limits the game content for no reason besides nostalgia and a legacy throwback.

Thanks for commenting!

[Easy_Lee]

Regarding multiclassing, the lack of starting proficiencies from the second class is a concern. Normally, if I multiclass into fighter, I gain some weapon and armor options I didn't have before. It's reasonably common for rogues to multiclass that way.

As far as iconic builds go, fighter 5 / rogue 5 is reasonably common. Taking your first level in fighter on a wizard to get constitution saves and better armor is also something people do. In general, taking your first one to five levels in a class then the rest in a different class is fairly common. You change your proficient saving throws, pick up some proficiencies, and delay access to certain things or possibly switch these features for those.

EK 7 / Wizard is another popular one that's no longer possible. Under this system, you would pick up some spells and features for taking a wizard multiclass, but spell slots wouldn't change. And spell slots are a huge part of the appeal of wizard, and other full casters.

One more bit on multiclassing, and I think this is important, is that it's a little confusing as written. You have to read and retain a few paragraphs to understand how it works. For many, that means a few re-reads to fully absorb it. Maybe I've had bad luck, but I've met few players willing to absorb more than a few sentences worth of house rules for a given thing. As a result, I've adopted a policy of Simplicity First for any house rules I use.

Just some things to think about.

[Zman]

Regarding multiclassing, the lack of starting proficiencies from the second class is a concern. Normally, if I multiclass into fighter, I gain some weapon and armor options I didn't have before. It's reasonably common for rogues to multiclass that way.

As far as iconic builds go, fighter 5 / rogue 5 is reasonably common. Taking your first level in fighter on a wizard to get constitution saves and better armor is also something people do. In general, taking your first one to five levels in a class then the rest in a different class is fairly common. You change your proficient saving throws, pick up some proficiencies, and delay access to certain things or possibly switch these features for those.

EK 7 / Wizard is another popular one that's no longer possible. Under this system, you would pick up some spells and features for taking a wizard multiclass, but spell slots wouldn't change. And spell slots are a huge part of the appeal of wizard, and other full casters.

One more bit on multiclassing, and I think this is important, is that it's a little confusing as written. You have to read and retain a few paragraphs to understand how it works. For many, that means a few re-reads to fully absorb it. Maybe I've had bad luck, but I've met few players willing to absorb more than a few sentences worth of house rules for a given thing. As a result, I've adopted a policy of Simplicity First for any house rules I use.

Just some things to think about.

You gain any proficiency you would from Multiclassing as normal. So a Rogue Multiclassing into Fighter gains Simple and Martial Weapons, and Medium armor and Shields. "They also grant some of the classes starting proficiences listed in the Multiclassing Proficiencies table."

Fighter/Rogue. Now, you have two ways to accomplish it, you are either a Fighter who picks up a bit of Rogue or a Rogue who picks up a bit of fighter. They are conceptually close to the Fighter/Rogue you mentioned, but can expressed two different ways. And this way it is online as of level 1, and doesn't require awkward break points.

Sure, dipping Fighter for Con saves and heavy armor is a mechanical benefit, but flavor wise you have a Wizard playing a level without magic, and then acquiring it. The only use of that Multiclass is a mechanic benefit dip. I can't say that is an Iconic character problem. X1/Y2+ is almost always for solely mechanical benefit, and the majority time can adequately be expressed through my system. Also, the character in practice is onlive via level 1, and doesn't erquire a switch over.

EK7/Wizard+. Lets dissect this and see.

Normal
1: Fighter 1 no magic
2: Fighter 2 no magic
3: EK 3 1st level spells Weapon Bond
4: EK4 1st level spells
5: EK5 1st level spells
6: EK6 1st level spells
7: EK7 2nd level spells War Magic
8: EK7 Wizard1 2nd level spells
9: EK7 Wizard2 3rd levels spells
10: EK7 Wizard3 3rd levels spells


My E10
1: Fighter1//Wizard1 1st level spells wizard list
2: Fighter2//Wizard1 1st level spells wizard list
3: EK3//Wizard1 1st level spells wizard list Weapon Bond
4: EK4//Wizard1 1st level spells wizar list
4.5: EK4//Wizard2 1st level spells
5: EK5//Wizard 2 etc

As we see the concept of Eldritch Knight will actually come online earlier, starting at first level. You will have more magic and an expanded spell list for the majority of your career. And you have access to enough feats to end up with most of the same spellcasting, it would take a total of six feats, or about half of all the ASI/Feats the fighter would have access to to get the same 3rd level spells. As far as I can tell this character concept is fully realizable with this system, and is done so in a more efficient and better manner throughout more of the levels and it comes online at level 1.

I agree, it does take a bit to pickup. Any suggestions for simplifying how to apply it? It does what I want, unfortunatley it isn't "easy" to understand, haha.

[Theodoxus]

I started last night, porting your work into Word and tinkering with the fiddly bits. I revised anything that was UA to the XGtE counterpart; though I kept Elven Alacrity as a separate feat from Elven Accuracy, because I liked the idea of having both a Disad and Advantage option. (One heck of an elven archer if you grab both!)

I ran with my Primary 5 Class idea, though I can see your point. But I'll at least start with them and expand from there. I've got Cleric and Fighter finalized, working on Rogue next this evening, and will have Sorcerer and Wizard - both of which should be pretty easy to port over to E10.

One nice aspect of this is the "secondary classes" are the ones that typically have ribbons above 10th that keep the iconic feel of the class. Having them be multiclass options only limits their max level to more reasonable choices - using a primary class to cover the iconic feel (a ranger won't miss the Hide in Plain Sight, if paired to a Rogue primary...)

For Cleric, I tossed Divine Intervention out - since it would have come online at "16th" level, and the wording would have to be revamped to cover why it's not improving for 17th-20th levels. Instead, I moved the books 11th level ability of Destroy Undead CR 2 to "16th". I'm contemplating perhaps including Destroy Undead CR 3 as their 20th level capstone... it feels particularly epic, at least.

I'm finding, other than the actual data entry for each class, there isn't a lot of heavy lifting - the classes so far collapse well into 10 levels. We'll see once I get to Monk (arguably the most dense of the classes) if it keeps on track.

Thanks for the springboard of a project! Now if I can just get one of my gaming groups on board to actually try it out!

[Easy_Lee]

The multiclassing ideal, for me, would be a table of features for each class. You lose these features from the base class and gain those features from the target class. That's easy to understand and creates over a hundred unique possibilities - a finite number one could check for balance issues, but one that's high enough to fit just about any concept.

Unfortunately, that's a lot of work and it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

[Zman]

I started last night, porting your work into Word and tinkering with the fiddly bits. I revised anything that was UA to the XGtE counterpart; though I kept Elven Alacrity as a separate feat from Elven Accuracy, because I liked the idea of having both a Disad and Advantage option. (One heck of an elven archer if you grab both!)

I ran with my Primary 5 Class idea, though I can see your point. But I'll at least start with them and expand from there. I've got Cleric and Fighter finalized, working on Rogue next this evening, and will have Sorcerer and Wizard - both of which should be pretty easy to port over to E10.

One nice aspect of this is the "secondary classes" are the ones that typically have ribbons above 10th that keep the iconic feel of the class. Having them be multiclass options only limits their max level to more reasonable choices - using a primary class to cover the iconic feel (a ranger won't miss the Hide in Plain Sight, if paired to a Rogue primary...)

For Cleric, I tossed Divine Intervention out - since it would have come online at "16th" level, and the wording would have to be revamped to cover why it's not improving for 17th-20th levels. Instead, I moved the books 11th level ability of Destroy Undead CR 2 to "16th". I'm contemplating perhaps including Destroy Undead CR 3 as their 20th level capstone... it feels particularly epic, at least.

I'm finding, other than the actual data entry for each class, there isn't a lot of heavy lifting - the classes so far collapse well into 10 levels. We'll see once I get to Monk (arguably the most dense of the classes) if it keeps on track.

Thanks for the springboard of a project! Now if I can just get one of my gaming groups on board to actually try it out!

Its an interesting project! Most classes should collapse down pretty well. What I would do here is make Multiclassing classes maybe three levels long and condensed down to mostly the ribbons and the core functionality to make them feel different. Might be toughish to balance, but might be worth it.

Condensing all classes down to E10 classes is definitely something I've thought about, but so far this E10 has been working well and it has made world building a dream.



The multiclassing ideal, for me, would be a table of features for each class. You lose these features from the base class and gain those features from the target class. That's easy to understand and creates over a hundred unique possibilities - a finite number one could check for balance issues, but one that's high enough to fit just about any concept.

Unfortunately, that's a lot of work and it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

That opens its own can of worms though. Class features in and of themselves are not even roughly equal in power. And features of different levels aren't equal either. And some features of a class can't be given up, so are they just delayed? Then you're not that far off from stock multiclassing. Not to mention scaling features. That is a ton of work and would be very hard to make work using the existing framework of dnd.

What would be fun would be a generic class where points etc were spent in different class tracks. Ie unlock a class track, then spend points to gain more of those features. Each new power tier or ability tier costs more and more points so a character could specialize and play a true wizard, or they could split them up and end up roughly 2/3 Fighter and 2/3 wizard etc. But, that would be an entirely different system with completely customizable characters balanced only by opportunity cost of further specialization. It is how I'd build an rpg from scratch, but I digress.

[Easy_Lee]

That opens its own can of worms though. Class features in and of themselves are not even roughly equal in power. And features of different levels aren't equal either. And some features of a class can't be given up, so are they just delayed? Then you're not that far off from stock multiclassing. Not to mention scaling features. That is a ton of work and would be very hard to make work using the existing framework of dnd.

What would be fun would be a generic class where points etc were spent in different class tracks. Ie unlock a class track, then spend points to gain more of those features. Each new power tier or ability tier costs more and more points so a character could specialize and play a true wizard, or they could split them up and end up roughly 2/3 Fighter and 2/3 wizard etc. But, that would be an entirely different system with completely customizable characters balanced only by opportunity cost of further specialization. It is how I'd build an rpg from scratch, but I digress.

To your first, yes, it would be a project. You'd need to take resources like spell slots, ki, and rages into consideration since that's part of the progression. Additionally, some might not take kindly to a multiclassed life cleric / wizard having heavy armor, shields, and full access to both class spell lists along with the ability to swap spells on a long rest.

To your second, someone made a system like that where all features were major or minor, and you chose major and minor features as you leveled. As I recall, the major features was the main progression from a class. If you received barbarian extra attack and rage, you could not also receive rogue cunning action and sneak attack. I'm not sure what that system was called.

[Theodoxus]

Ok, question, Zman, regarding multiclassing. If your primary class is a fighter or rogue, you'll end up with 12 feats (1 @ 1st, 10 more from base class progression, and then 1 at 6th fighter or 10th rogue). Is there anything that keeps you from spending all your feats on multiclassing in the same class, so you could be Fighter 10//Rogue 11? (gaining 4 additional 'half ASIs in the process).

Even without these shenanigans, you could theoretically be Primary Class 10//Secondary Class 10... yes, it'd probably gimp you somewhat, not having any decent ASIs or feats to pick up along the way, but being legit gestalt might be worth it, depending on the combination... but is this intended?

[Zman]

Ok, question, Zman, regarding multiclassing. If your primary class is a fighter or rogue, you'll end up with 12 feats (1 @ 1st, 10 more from base class progression, and then 1 at 6th fighter or 10th rogue). Is there anything that keeps you from spending all your feats on multiclassing in the same class, so you could be Fighter 10//Rogue 11? (gaining 4 additional 'half ASIs in the process).

Even without these shenanigans, you could theoretically be Primary Class 10//Secondary Class 10... yes, it'd probably gimp you somewhat, not having any decent ASIs or feats to pick up along the way, but being legit gestalt might be worth it, depending on the combination... but is this intended?

Actually, you get 11 feats from 1st, 4.5, 5.5, 65. etc. Then you get either 2-3 from your Primary class as well. The ASI's gained from your normal class are still full ASI/Feats. I have thought about making the class generated one "half" ones like those granted from Multiclassing, but decided against it.

In E10 a class level beyond 10 does not exist, but playing a true Gestalt is very possible and should be a viable character and can result in a 10//10 with a couple feat/ASIs to spare. Now, it isn't quite a true gestalt, since you aren't taking the best hit dice, skills, saves etc as you are still heavily bound to what you picked as your Primary class, but it is darn close. So a Fighter//Rogue would play the game and feel significantly different than a Rogue//Fighter. Both would be viable, and both would fill the niche differently.

As you level it looks like this(kind of smooshed the half levels together to show general progression)...
1//1
2//1
3//1
4//1
4//2
5//2
6//3
7//4
8//5
8//6
9//7
10//8
10//9
10//10
A Fighter with the bonus feat at 6th can accelerate their Multiclass level a bit so it is effectively only a level and a half behind starting at 6th level.

The tradeoff is obviously the opportunity cost, you're giving up ASIs to your primary stat and you're giving up feats as you go. But, gaving access to another classes features might be enough to make up the difference, and the Half ASIs from the second class might be enough, or starting with a 16 in your primary or rounding it their at //4 isn't terrible, and you could limp along to level 10 with nothing but a 16 in your primary stat just fine to make the character concept work.

[Sir kiss]

[QUOTE=Zman;21932460]Welcome all.
hi!
first of all- sorry for my broken English..
i really like your house roles and we play with them with joy!
i have a small question about warlock- in your version, a warlock with pact of the blade Gain proficiency in Medium Armor. all other classes that can use Medium Armor also can use shield, the feat that teach to use Medium Armor also gives the character the option for shield.
is the "Gain proficiency in Medium Armor" in Tweaks v2.0 include shied?
thank you !

[Zman]

[QUOTE=Zman;21932460]Welcome all.
hi!
first of all- sorry for my broken English..
i really like your house roles and we play with them with joy!
i have a small question about warlock- in your version, a warlock with pact of the blade Gain proficiency in Medium Armor. all other classes that can use Medium Armor also can use shield, the feat that teach to use Medium Armor also gives the character the option for shield.
is the "Gain proficiency in Medium Armor" in Tweaks v2.0 include shied?
thank you !

Hi! No worries about your English, it is perfectly understandable.

As to the bladelock’s warlock’s armor proficiencies, I was a bit on the fence but opted to intentionally leave out Shield Proficiency. The reasons behind it is to add a bit more granularity to the classes defenses, to incentivize some multiclsssing to a martial class for those benefits, and prevents a Warlock from so easily armoringnup and hiding behind a shield with eldritch blast.

Hope that helps. As always I’m open to arguments to why I’m wrong and should change something. Expect some kind of update in the near future as I update it for XGtE and with more play feedback.

Thanks for your feedback.