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View Full Version : Pathfinder Help me critique and CR a template please



WarKitty
2017-04-19, 08:58 PM
So this template is a Boss Dragon template. It's meant to be applied to dragons to make them a bit more epic - in my campaign dragons are at least demigods, so I wanted something to make them more epic without simply going "bigger and more spells". Some of the features are mostly cosmetic; many are meant to prevent "no" buttons. Here's what I have so far:

Continuous abilities: haste, true seeing, freedom of movement
Alternate form: 1 humanoid form, gains armor equal to natural armor with no max dex bonus, arcane failure chance, or armor check penalty. Also gains 1 weapon equal in damage to its bite attack. These items disappear if it dies.
Immunity: Death effect, ability damage
Saving power: if subjected to an ability that gets a save, the dragon gets a new save every round, even if the ability would not normally allow it. This does not affect abilities that normally allow a save every round.
AC bonus: This creature takes a -2 penalty to natural armor, in exchange for gaining its con modifier to AC
Grant powers: The dragon gains the ability to grant draconic powers to one other creature per HD, as a free action. These creatures gain claws as appropriate for their size, with the an additional 1d4 damage of the appropriate elemental type. In addition, these creatures gain immunity to the dragon's element.
Alter environment: As a move action, the dragon gains the ability to alter the environment in such a way as to reflect its own elemental nature, up to 1 mile away. This may create minor hazards but does not generally make the terrain inhospitable to humanoids.

Any glaring weaknesses I'm missing? Any other features I should have

Artemis97
2017-04-19, 09:10 PM
I like the alternate form. But would it be easier to say it retains its natural armor? or is this in addition to natural armor? or is it meant to be more of a shifting, natural armored scales into say, a breastplate or some chainmail?

Alter Environment is cool, but I can see that getting really dangerous for players. I mean, now you not only have to walk up a mountain, but the mountain's on fire. Combine it with the Grant Powers, now you're fighting things that live in fire on the fiery mountain. On one hand, that's really cool, on the other hand, might be too rough on players? Maybe I think players are softees, though.

WarKitty
2017-04-19, 09:21 PM
I like the alternate form. But would it be easier to say it retains its natural armor? or is this in addition to natural armor? or is it meant to be more of a shifting, natural armored scales into say, a breastplate or some chainmail?

The scales basically magically turn into armor is the idea. That's why the armor and the weapon disappear when the creature dies - they're essentially part of it, just made to be a separate piece by magic.


Alter Environment is cool, but I can see that getting really dangerous for players. I mean, now you not only have to walk up a mountain, but the mountain's on fire. Combine it with the Grant Powers, now you're fighting things that live in fire on the fiery mountain. On one hand, that's really cool, on the other hand, might be too rough on players? Maybe I think players are softees, though.

It's meant to be really mostly cosmetic. So a fire dragon wouldn't make the mountain on fire. It might make the mountain hot with small streams of lava and hot winds stripping the leaves from the trees. But it shouldn't create anything that would make the area seriously inhospitable for a careful adventuring party. But mechanically it shouldn't do more than create visible hazards that players can avoid.

WarKitty
2017-04-20, 05:44 PM
I should add in that this template is meant for adult or higher dragons. I realize it would probably be a little more devastating on low-level parties.

Debihuman
2017-04-26, 05:03 AM
So basically this is an Acquired Template that can be placed on Adult or older dragons.


Continuous abilities: haste, true seeing, freedom of movement Dragons are already fast. A hasted dragon is going to be formidable. I would up the CR for being hasted for sure. That has the possibility of making this a TPK. I'd be hesitant to make it a continuous ability.


Alternate form: 1 humanoid form, gains armor equal to natural armor with no max dex bonus, arcane failure chance, or armor check penalty. Also gains 1 weapon equal in damage to its bite attack. These items disappear if it dies. Any magical weapon and armor in its hoard would be useable. I'd rather see that stuff used than this. A decent dragon hoard should include at least one magic weapon and magical armor, especially if the dragon can use when it changes shape.

Also, Pathfinder uses Change Shape rather than Alternate Form (a holdover from D&D). See Universal Monster rule and Brass Dragon.


Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.

Format: change shape (wolf, beast form I); Location: SQ, and in special abilities for creatures with a unique listing.


Immunity: Death effect, ability damage Okay.


Saving power: if subjected to an ability that gets a save, the dragon gets a new save every round, even if the ability would not normally allow it. This does not affect abilities that normally allow a save every round. Hmm. Why not just give them standard Evasion like a rogue? This does basically the same thing.


AC bonus: This creature takes a -2 penalty to natural armor, in exchange for gaining its con modifier to AC That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would Natural armor take a penalty? Don't bother making the math more complicated for the DM. Just give the dragon a Bonus to AC equal to its Con modifier (if any).


Grant powers: The dragon gains the ability to grant draconic powers to one other creature per HD, as a free action. These creatures gain claws as appropriate for their size, with the an additional 1d4 damage of the appropriate elemental type. In addition, these creatures gain immunity to the dragon's element. This isn't clear at all. This looks to be a supernatural ability. How long do these features last? Does the dragon take a loss to its own abilities when it transfers them?


Alter environment: As a move action, the dragon gains the ability to alter the environment in such a way as to reflect its own elemental nature, up to 1 mile away. This may create minor hazards but does not generally make the terrain inhospitable to humanoids How big an area does the dragon affect and how long does this remain in place? This also looks to be a supernatural ability. I'd say that that is lasts an hour per HD of the dragon (also make this dismissable) and that the terrain should be difficult. Why does the terrain only affect humanoids? I'd just make it easy and say that any creatures have to move at half speed. Here's the problem: if they PCs have access to flight, this is a non-issue. if they don't, the hasted dragon makes toast of them. I'm not a big fan of this for those reasons.

Debby

jqavins
2017-04-27, 03:11 PM
As Artemis and Debby pointed out, some of these abilities are really powerful. And They're Supposed To Be! The idea was that dragons are divine-level creatures and need some divine-level boosts. Sure, abilities like these would be hell on a low level party; a low level party has no business going after a demi-god and should get stomped if the do.


Saving power: if subjected to an ability that gets a save, the dragon gets a new save every round, even if the ability would not normally allow it. This does not affect abilities that normally allow a save every round.Not good enough. This should give a second attempt each round for effects that normally allow a new attempt each round.


AC bonus: This creature takes a -2 penalty to natural armor, in exchange for gaining its con modifier to ACI agree with Debby; just give them the bonus and forget the penalty.


Grant powers: The dragon gains the ability to grant draconic powers to one other creature per HD, as a free action. These creatures gain claws as appropriate for their size, with the an additional 1d4 damage of the appropriate elemental type. In addition, these creatures gain immunity to the dragon's element.This needs to be spelled out in greater detail. Duration, times per day, cost to the dragon (if any) etc. I like the divine feel of it, like the cousin to granting spells. Looked at that way, dealing an additional 1d4 damage seems a bit light.


Alter environment: As a move action, the dragon gains the ability to alter the environment in such a way as to reflect its own elemental nature, up to 1 mile away. This may create minor hazards but does not generally make the terrain inhospitable to humanoids.This seems problematic. Once again I like the divine feel of it, but I don't see how it can be cosmetic unless it's illusory. When the ground is hot, for example, either feet get burned or the ground is merely warm. Streams of lava, even little ones, do serious damage. When the power stops operating, the ground is unavoidably left scarred, flora and fauna devastated. Even if the PCs can avoid the direct hazards, the ability is really major and, in my opinion, rather over the top. And this from the guy who's supporting the divine awesomeness of the other stuff; this is just too much for a demi-god.

Debihuman
2017-04-28, 09:52 AM
More powerful doesn't necessarily mean better when it comes to monster design. I don't even know what you mean by "divine-level". This template is for adult dragons, as was pointed out. An adult blue dragon has 16 hit dice. I humbly suggest you figure out exactly what you want this template to do.

Dragons are not deities but if that's what you want, then don't make this template for puny dragons.

Debby

Edited as adult blue dragons have 16 hit dice.

jqavins
2017-04-28, 01:46 PM
I don't even know what you mean by "divine-level"... An adult blue dragon has 6 hit dice... Dragons are not deities but if that's what you want, then don't make this template for puny dragons.

War Kitty never specified an edition. In 3.5e an adult dragon has anywhere from 18 (white) to 23 (gold) hit dice. An adult blue has 21. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blueDragon) A blue wyrmling has 6. I can only presume that keeping the template away from puny dragons is the reason that it only applies to adults and up.

From the OP:
in my campaign dragons are at least demigods, so I wanted something to make them more epic without simply going "bigger and more spells".
So, yeah, they kinda are divine, or at least similar in power to divines; the wording was not really clear. "Divine-level" was intended as short hand for "either actually divine or of similar power;" sorry it wasn't clear.

Debihuman
2017-04-30, 04:11 AM
There isn't a "divine" level in Pathfinder. Also, the thread is listed under Pathfinder heading not 3.5. Levels over 20 are "epic" which has nothing to do with divinity.

How a dragon gains this template may be that a deity grants it. Templates are either acquired or inherited. If you mean that it can only be bestowed by a deity, then it would be "divine." However, deities and even mythic creatures (see Mythic Adventures) can have wildly varying hit dice. 3.5 Deities & Demigods had codified rules for creating divine creatures using ranks and powers, which you can still use. What rules (if any) are you using?

Debby

jqavins
2017-04-30, 04:08 PM
There isn't a "divine" level in Pathfinder.
"Divine-level" was intended as short hand for "either actually divine or of similar power."I don't know how I could have been any more clear.


Also, the thread is listed under Pathfinder heading not 3.5. Levels over 20 are "epic" which has nothing to do with divinity.
Ah, yes I did fail to notice that; thnk you for pointing it out. According to Paizo's website (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/dragon.html), an adult blue in Pathfinder has 16 hit dice.


If you mean that it can only be bestowed by a deity, then it would be "divine."
Whom are you addressing here? Is it me, or the OP, War Kitty? If me, then rest assured I have no intentions at all regarding this template.

WarKitty
2017-06-04, 07:50 PM
There isn't a "divine" level in Pathfinder. Also, the thread is listed under Pathfinder heading not 3.5. Levels over 20 are "epic" which has nothing to do with divinity.

How a dragon gains this template may be that a deity grants it. Templates are either acquired or inherited. If you mean that it can only be bestowed by a deity, then it would be "divine." However, deities and even mythic creatures (see Mythic Adventures) can have wildly varying hit dice. 3.5 Deities & Demigods had codified rules for creating divine creatures using ranks and powers, which you can still use. What rules (if any) are you using?

Debby

I'm not really using rules specifically here. The basic idea here is that dragons in my game just aren't the same as by-the-book D&D or Pathfinder dragons. They are, inherently, deities. That said, deities in my game also work a little differently than deities in typical D&D or Pathfinder. It's meant to me much blurrier in the lines between "really powerful monster" and "deity."

One thing I should mention is that, due to the story progression, you're also going to be encountering dragons in a different setting than traditional. You're going to be seeing a raging newly-raised dragon god brought back to full force by a horde of cultists and a pile of blood sacrifices. This means the dragon is typically going to be fighting without benefit of a lair or of magic items (although if the party dithers too long it might start acquiring these).

In any case, I have an updated version:

Base creature: Dragon, must be at least adult
Continuous abilities:freedom of movement
Size: the dragon gains one size category. This does not result in gaining any other abilities normally associated with larger size, except the bonus to CMB/CMD
Alternate form: 1 humanoid form, gains armor equal to natural armor with no max dex bonus, arcane failure chance, or armor check penalty. Also gains 1 weapon equal in damage to its bite attack. These items are magically part of the creature and cannot be removed; they disappear if it is slain.
Immunity: Death effect, ability damage
Saving power: if subjected to an ability that gets a save, the dragon gets a new save every round, even if the ability would not normally allow it. This does not affect abilities that normally allow a save every round.
Ability Bonus:The creature gains a +5 untyped bonus to all charisma based skill checks.
AC bonus: The creature gains the ability to add 1/2 of its natural armor bonus to its touch AC.
Grant powers: The dragon gains the ability to grant draconic powers to one other creature per HD, as a free action. It may use this ability at will, but may never have it granted to more creatures than it has HD. These creatures gain claws as appropriate for their size, with the an additional 1d4 damage of the appropriate elemental type. In addition, these creatures gain immunity to the dragon's element.
Share Spells: As a swift action, the dragon may grant a spell it knows to one allied creature, regardless of whether this creature would normally be able of casting this spell. The spell is useable on the creature's next turn. The dragon expends the relevant spell slot as soon as it uses this ability. At any given time, it may have up to three spells granted this way; however a given ally can only be granted one spell at a time.
Alter environment: If a dragon stays in one place for more than 1 hour, the dragon begins the ability to alter the environment in such a way as to reflect its own elemental nature, up to 1 mile away, spreading at a rate of 100 feet per round. This may create minor hazards but does not generally make the terrain inhospitable to humanoids (although it's probably unsuitable for long-term habitation). These hazards are generally clearly visible, but make the affected region count as difficult terrain.

jqavins
2017-06-05, 02:18 PM
Seems better. The disappearance the alternate form's armor and weapon seems like the natural thing to include. But slaying a god-dragon is such a feat that it might be appropriate to have weapon and/or armor artifacts left behind. Maybe consider adding some opportunity for them to stay. Perhaps a simple chance, perhaps depending on how the dragon is slain, or something else, I really don't know. I'm just thinking how cool it would be to slay one and be left with a weapon - OK, let's be plain, a sword - that does dragon bite damage. There could even be a plot line or background story about a legendary warrior who slays several dragons and collects the artifacts.