Impure Prince gish?(Thought exercise)

[danielxcutter]

Just an idea I had... but I think a Ranger 1/Wizard 8/Impure Prince 6/Abjurant Champion 5 wouldn't be that bad. Hits the benchmark, the Share Spells ability symbionts have is abusable even if you don't get any more, and you get a metric buttload of class features.

So, how should I go around with this? Looking for feats/spells that are good without violating common sense.

[Zombimode]

the Share Spells ability symbionts have is abusable

Is it, really?

I thought symbionts just provide their host benfit passively while attached, they can't really do anything.

This is very interessting to me as I'm currently playing a Daelkyr-Halfblood Hexblade.

[Fouredged Sword]

The entry into impure prince seems late, there is no bab req that I see, so you should enter at 6th level, not 9th. This frees up 3 levels for you to take something else gishy. I would also not bother with impure prince 6 as that level loses spellcasting and grants a mere 25% chance to ignore crits and +2 to your favored enemy, both nice, but not worth losing class levels for.

Here is the build I would follow.

Ranger 1 / Wizard 4 / Impure Prince 5 / abjurant champion 5 / ruathar 3 / X 2

You net a slightly better bab and caster level without losing anything super major.

[danielxcutter]

Is it, really?

I thought symbionts just provide their host benfit passively while attached, they can't really do anything.

This is very interessting to me as I'm currently playing a Daelkyr-Halfblood Hexblade.

Depends on what kind of caster you are. Hexblades probably don't get the abusable stuff, though.


The entry into impure prince seems late, there is no bab req that I see, so you should enter at 6th level, not 9th. This frees up 3 levels for you to take something else gishy. I would also not bother with impure prince 6 as that level loses spellcasting and grants a mere 25% chance to ignore crits and +2 to your favored enemy, both nice, but not worth losing class levels for.

Here is the build I would follow.

Ranger 1 / Wizard 4 / Impure Prince 5 / abjurant champion 5 / ruathar 3 / X 2

You net a slightly better bab and caster level without losing anything super major.

Actually the real build would look more like Ranger 1/Wizard 4/Impure Prince 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Wizard 4.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Depends on what kind of caster you are. Hexblades probably don't get the abusable stuff, though.
What does one do with symbiots, though? I see them pop up from time to time in TO stuff, but I've never really figured out what they're doing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What does one do with symbiots, though? I see them pop up from time to time in TO stuff, but I've never really figured out what they're doing.
Symbionts:
1) Are (intelligent) creatures. As such, they can take feats, cast spells, make Spot and Listen checks, and so on.
2) Have an ego score, like intelligent magic items. Personality conflicts are possible.
3) Can be worn or equipped by other creatures.
4) Often take up a magic item slot.
5) Act on their host's turn.
6) Take damage like worn magic items (use wearer's saves, if better, don't take damage unless targeted instead of host).
7) Have the Share Spells (Su) ability as part of their general traits.


Share Spells (Su): Any spell the host creature casts on itself automatically also affects the symbiont. Additionally, the host can cast a spell with a target of "You" on its symbiont instead of on itself. Likewise, a symbiont can choose to have any spell or spell-like ability it uses on itself also affect the host creature, and can cast a spell with a target of "You" on its host instead of on itself. The host and symbiont can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the host's or symbiont's type. Spells targeted on the host by another spellcaster do not affect the symbiont, and vice versa.

It's much like having a familiar that also provides magic item benefits. Symbionts can do things like making Aid Another checks (boosted by shared buff spells), ready to counterspell (if they have the right abilities), attack (and flank), and generally enable any strategy that relies on an extra set of actions. Vanilla symbionts don't start with class levels, of course, but if you get one as cohort, it should level with you.

[danielxcutter]

What does one do with symbiots, though? I see them pop up from time to time in TO stuff, but I've never really figured out what they're doing.

Ever hear of the Nasty Gentlemen build?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ever hear of the Nasty Gentlemen build?
I'd heard of it, but never dug into it-- I don't actually have the sourcebook for Symbiots. but I think I gotcha now-- you bind to a rediculous number of symbiots, then cast (or Persist!) something like Cloud of Knives and share it so that all of your symbiots can use the spell-granted extra attacks.

(Which makes me want to go Bard/Impure Prince/Sublime Chord, but maybe that's just me...)

[danielxcutter]

I'd heard of it, but never dug into it-- I don't actually have the sourcebook for Symbiots. but I think I gotcha now-- you bind to a rediculous number of symbiots, then cast (or Persist!) something like Cloud of Knives and share it so that all of your symbiots can use the spell-granted extra attacks.

(Which makes me want to go Bard/Impure Prince/Sublime Chord, but maybe that's just me...)

Yup, that's it. Of course being that silly is a non-option, but it could still be used at a lesser scale.

[Zombimode]

Vanilla symbionts don't start with class levels, of course, but if you get one as cohort, it should level with you.

Ah, getting the Symbiont as a cohort is the trick.

That makes it sadly entirely GM-dependent. So my Daelkyr-Halfblood wont get too much out of his Symbiont.

Or is there anything nice that even a standard Symbiont can do (besides providing their Standard benefits - which are not nothing)?

[danielxcutter]

Ah, getting the Symbiont as a cohort is the trick.

That makes it sadly entirely GM-dependent. So my Daelkyr-Halfblood wont get too much out of his Symbiont.

Or is there anything nice that even a standard Symbiont can do (besides providing their Standard benefits - which are not nothing)?

Share Spells is, as I said, abusable with the right tricks, but symbionts aren't that bad themselves. Which one are you using?

[Zombimode]

The Leech (was it Breed Leech? Brood Leech?).

The list that Daelkyr-Halfbloods get at Level 1 is not terribly impressive so I took the option for increased survival.

I could have upgraded it at Level 5 but Winterstalk and Stormstalk are quite bad, I feel. I will upgrade* it to a Spell Wurm at Level 9 (or 10? can't remember), though.


*the DM will rule that I can Keep the benefits of my original Symbiont after an upgrade if I pay for my original Symbiont: if I upgrade the Leech to a Spell Wurm at Level 9, if I pay 1000 (or whatever a Leech's treasure value is) I Keep the benefits of the Leech, while gaining the 9000 gp Spell Wurm "for free". This is not much of a difference to RAW, but it allows me to get the benefits of more then one Symbiont without actually aquiring additional symbionts beyond the one I'm born with.

[danielxcutter]

The Leech (was it Breed Leech? Brood Leech?).

The list that Daelkyr-Halfbloods get at Level 1 is not terribly impressive so I took the option for increased survival.

I could have upgraded it at Level 5 but Winterstalk and Stormstalk are quite bad, I feel. I will upgrade* it to a Spell Wurm at Level 9 (or 10? can't remember), though.


*the DM will rule that I can Keep the benefits of my original Symbiont after an upgrade if I pay for my original Symbiont: if I upgrade the Leech to a Spell Wurm at Level 9, if I pay 1000 (or whatever a Leech's treasure value is) I Keep the benefits of the Leech, while gaining the 9000 gp Spell Wurm "for free". This is not much of a difference to RAW, but it allows me to get the benefits of more then one Symbiont without actually aquiring additional symbionts beyond the one I'm born with.

Hmm... Spellwurm's better than most symbiont choices you have, I guess, but Shadow Sibling is also nice - incorporeality, once per Con bonus, as a immediate action. None of the others are really notable, especially for a Hexblade.

Wait... why am I giving you advice?

[CozJa]

Wait... why am I giving you advice?

That means you transcended your own thread! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I would advise against the upgrade symbiont thing: apart for rare cases, the very good thing about symbionts is the extra actions (and share spells feature), and that gets a bit lost if you have less symbiont attached.
Also, another neat trick (if you are able to cast it on yourself) is to use venomfire when you have a tongueworm and a tentacle whip, and teach the rogues how to add d6s


Oh... and do you have access to Mystic Rangers?

[Zombimode]

Hmm... Spellwurm's better than most symbiont choices you have, I guess, but Shadow Sibling is also nice - incorporeality, once per Con bonus, as a immediate action. None of the others are really notable, especially for a Hexblade.

Indeed. Hexblades get plenty of spells the work nicely with Familiars, but Sharing an Alter Self with your Symbiont will likely result in a painful experience.

Well, Extra Spell IS a feat, so I could get Cloud of Knifes or whatever spell works fine with Symbionts.


Wait... why am I giving you advice?

Because you seem to have figured out the Symbiont stuff much better than me and you're a nice Person? :smallwink:



Anyway, I would advise against the upgrade symbiont thing: apart for rare cases, the very good thing about symbionts is the extra actions (and share spells feature), and that gets a bit lost if you have less symbiont attached.

For the record, mechanically it would be identical to having several symbionts, so there is no loss there. Fluffwise they would be additional mutations of one Symbiont, but they may or may not be distinct creatures. My character certainly doesn't know exactly what is growing inside him.