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Finback
2017-04-19, 11:21 PM
So what is the best way to do it? Just give them levels in a class? To what degree would that alter their CR?

(I want to give the players a shock when they encounter "Her Majesty" who runs a small city - she's an adult blue dragon, and to make her that bit tougher, I'd like to surprise them by giving her spells which explain why she's managing to run a city without being noticed - she uses a lot of charm/domination/illusion).

(edit:) I realise that the MM has the innate spellcasters sidebar, with spells equal to their Cha mod. But what about if you want them to have *studied* magic, like a wizard, or if they made a pact with something darker?

JNAProductions
2017-04-20, 12:04 AM
Just give them class levels. Unfortunately, there's no level=CR system in 5E, so you'll have to recalculate CR manually.

Alternatively, if you don't want to give her levels, just give her casting, and fluff it how you like.

Strill
2017-04-20, 01:44 AM
The CR adjustment is simple. Look at the top 3 damaging spells. If any of them do more damage than a normal round of the dragon's attacks, then take its average damage over the first three rounds, and use that to calculate its CR manually.

If none of its top 3 damaging spells out-pace a normal round of attacks, the spells have no effect on its CR. Yes, this means you could give them stuff like Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Mind Wipe, Antimagic Field, or Contingency + Hypnotic Pattern, and it would have no effect on their CR. That's why Pixies are CR 1/4 in spite of all their powerful spells.

X3r4ph
2017-04-20, 03:10 AM
CR is an illusion of balance.

Just smack your desired spells on the dragon and have fun. Reward extra, or less, XP as you see fit afterwards.

As for the mechanics, yeah, just add a wizard features on top of it. Basically, as long as you stick to the action limit any amount of spells known shouldn't make a big difference in power.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-04-20, 03:20 AM
If none of its top 3 damaging spells out-pace a normal round of attacks, the spells have no effect on its CR. Yes, this means you could give them stuff like Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Mind Wipe, Antimagic Field, or Contingency + Hypnotic Pattern, and it would have no effect on their CR. That's why Pixies are CR 1/4 in spite of all their powerful spells.

Yeah, spellcasting makes a mockery of CR.

For reference, an adult blue's multiattack is 51 DPR. Lightning Bolt is 56, assuming it can hit two targets. So it wouldn't take much in the way of spells to require a re-calculation.

MrStabby
2017-04-20, 03:34 AM
Adding damage spells wont change it much - after all the dragon can already do damage.

Dispel Magic, counterspell, teleport/misty step, shield, resist elements, mirror image, antimagic field all actually change the dynamics of the encounter and give the dragon more depth and makes the encounter about more than just getting off a couple of key spells.

Unoriginal
2017-04-20, 03:55 AM
As the book says:



MONSTERS WITH CLASSES
You can use the rules in chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook to give class levels to a monster. For example, you can turn an ordinary werewolf into a werewolf with four levels of the barbarian class (such a monster would be expressed as "Werewolf, 4th-level barbarian"). Start with the monster's stat block. The monster gains all the class features for every class level you add, with the following exceptions:

-The monster doesn't gain the starting equipment of the added class.
- For each class level you add, the monster gains one Hit Die of its normal type (based on its size), ignoring the class's Hit Die progression.
-The monster's proficiency bonus is based on its challenge rating, not its class levels.

Once you finish adding class levels to a monster, feel free to tweak its ability scores as you see fit (for example, raising the monster's Intelligence score so that the monster is a more effective wizard), and make whatever other adjustments are needed. You'll need to recalculate its challenge rating as though you had designed the monster from scratch. Depending on the monster and the number of class levels you add to it, its challenge rating might change very little or increase dramatically. For example, a werewolf that gains four barbarian levels is a much greater threat than it was before. In contrast, the hit points, spells, and other class features that an ancient red dragon gains from five levels of wizard don't increase its challenge rating.


Spells add versatility, but most spells won't be that impressive for a dragon. Imagine an encounter against a dragon + wizard team, but only one of them get to act each turn.



If none of its top 3 damaging spells out-pace a normal round of attacks, the spells have no effect on its CR. Yes, this means you could give them stuff like Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Mind Wipe, Antimagic Field, or Contingency + Hypnotic Pattern, and it would have no effect on their CR. That's why Pixies are CR 1/4 in spite of all their powerful spells.

That's not true. Pixies are CR 1/4 because they have those powerful spells. Without their spells, a pixie would be CR 0.

...Now I'm wondering about giving Sorcerer class levels to a pixie.

Ninja_Prawn
2017-04-20, 04:11 AM
...Now I'm wondering about giving Sorcerer class levels to a pixie.

Eh, it's been done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?504278-A-Faerie-Affair-OOC-III-Fey-Were-Expendable). These days, pixie bards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510514-OOC-All-Creatures-Great-and-Small-(5E)) are where it's at (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21638284&postcount=291). :smalltongue:

Beelzebubba
2017-04-20, 04:55 AM
As the book says:
Spells add versatility, but most spells won't be that impressive for a dragon. Imagine an encounter against a dragon + wizard team, but only one of them get to act each turn.

Then imagine a legendary action that allows one spell in addition to the regular attacks, which IMO is what the older dragons should have.

To the older ones, I'd also add area effect to their melee, or even add saves vs. STR to prevent being knocked prone on the tail, or maybe even knocked back 15' with the front claws. Then add environmental hazards in the lair that the dragon uses to it's advantage.

I'd also add a roar that deafens and frightens (with save DC of course) that can be switched out with the bite attack, tail that can grapple/restrain, and a body slam that hits an area of effect that can stun.

I guess you see my perspective...dragons being big hit point sponges that just deal mediocre damage over time is really boring. They should be epic, crazy, and everything they do should act to thwart organized team tactics by adding all sorts of chaos, lingering effects, and generally messing s*** up.

Unoriginal
2017-04-20, 05:25 AM
I don't really get the "big HP sponge" complain. The awesomeness of fighting a big, scary monster doesn't come from them having le crazy magicks and abilities, it comes from fighting a big, scary monster with a good presentation. It's like saying that fighting a knight is inherently less fun/impressive than fighting a mage.

Although I admit that it makes sense to give very big creatures more capacities to hit several people at once.


Note that I'm not saying your ideas are bad. Could work pretty well. The environmental hazards stuff is dragon lair 101, though.

Beelzebubba
2017-04-20, 09:31 AM
Note that I'm not saying your ideas are bad. Could work pretty well. The environmental hazards stuff is dragon lair 101, though.

Sure, to a degree, but if they don't have a mechanic to push people around, it's not really happening though.

Unoriginal
2017-04-20, 10:00 AM
Sure, to a degree, but if they don't have a mechanic to push people around, it's not really happening though.

All creatures can try to shove.

Finback
2017-04-20, 10:43 PM
Adding damage spells wont change it much - after all the dragon can already do damage.

Dispel Magic, counterspell, teleport/misty step, shield, resist elements, mirror image, antimagic field all actually change the dynamics of the encounter and give the dragon more depth and makes the encounter about more than just getting off a couple of key spells.

This is in line with I'm aiming to place Her Majesty. She doesn't need to use brute force, because she's a good manipulator and thinker - she's aware that trying to run a city when people know you're a huge dragon is going to bring the wrong sort of attention. Hence my concern wizarding Her up would make her *too* powerful for my players. (That being said, the more I think about it, the more it works having her as a major BBEG who lasts for ages, behind the scenes, pulling strings..)

Thanks for the input, folks!

Eldamar
2017-04-21, 01:42 AM
There's a class of near demi-god dragons in my homebrew world (created on these forums in a LoC game). I used the Ancient Gold Dragon as a base, then just gave them the spellcasting (spells known and slots) of 20th level Sorcerer and cherry-picked the spells from all the spell lists.

CR is mostly useless, so don't fret over it.

Adult Blue Dragon? Make her a level 10 Sorcerer? Just tack on the sorcerer abilities, pick a spell list, and follow the spell slot chart for sorcerer. I probably wouldn't change anything else like HD, AC, or base attacks but go ahead if you want to make her tougher.

Unoriginal
2017-04-21, 04:31 AM
This is in line with I'm aiming to place Her Majesty. She doesn't need to use brute force, because she's a good manipulator and thinker - she's aware that trying to run a city when people know you're a huge dragon is going to bring the wrong sort of attention. Hence my concern wizarding Her up would make her *too* powerful for my players. (That being said, the more I think about it, the more it works having her as a major BBEG who lasts for ages, behind the scenes, pulling strings..)

Thanks for the input, folks!

Why not make her a Bard?

Joe the Rat
2017-04-21, 09:08 AM
You don't even need class levels, just caster levels.

Take the casting block from Mage in the MM, and add it to your dragon. Calculate the to-hit and save DC based on the dragon's attributes and existing proficiency bonus, move casting to charisma (or not... a scholarly dragon caster could be amusing), fix the spell selections, and recheck damage and defense.

That's the part that's easy to forget. If you can cast invisibility, blur, or mirror image, recalculate as if the AC was higher. If it has hold person, perhaps double attack damage for 1-2 rounds to reflect the auto-crit potential. Especially do this if you add the cast a spell legendary action.

LeonBH
2017-04-21, 09:35 AM
Giving dragons defensive spells generally lowers their CR, I've found. This is because they can deal a ton of damage per round, but defensive spells drastically lower their damage output in a way that the gain to their defense does not compensate for.

On the other hand, giving them offensive spells hinges on: can it do at least as much as their multiattack? If so, that spell will increase their CR, since they can Breath Weapon + Cast Spell + Multiattack.

When I say this, I mean I calculated the CR using the way the DMG specifies. Average of Offense CR and Defense CR.

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-21, 10:52 AM
Giving dragons defensive spells generally lowers their CR, I've found. This is because they can deal a ton of damage per round, but defensive spells drastically lower their damage output in a way that the gain to their defense does not compensate for.

On the other hand, giving them offensive spells hinges on: can it do at least as much as their multiattack? If so, that spell will increase their CR, since they can Breath Weapon + Cast Spell + Multiattack.

When I say this, I mean I calculated the CR using the way the DMG specifies. Average of Offense CR and Defense CR.

What about Haste? Anyone can make a good use of a +2 AC, double speed, advantage on Dex Saves and either an Extra Attack or Rogue Stuff.

DragonBaneDM
2017-04-21, 11:01 AM
So there's actually a variant about this:

From the DMG's Spellcasting Dragons Variant:
"A young or older dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell's level can be no higher than one-third the dragon's challenge rating (rounded down)."

You could use this to assign your Dragon Monarch her spellcasting?

LeonBH
2017-04-21, 11:33 AM
DragonBane, the OP already says that they know that and are specifically asking about giving class levels or caster levels to the dragons instead.


What about Haste? Anyone can make a good use of a +2 AC, double speed, advantage on Dex Saves and either an Extra Attack or Rogue Stuff.

That depends on what Haste is replacing. The +2 AC brings Defensive CR up by 1, double speed does not change the CR (dragons are already fast anyway), and advantage on Dex saves does not change the CR as well if the dragon was already proficient in it (but you may add 1 to Defensive CR if the dragon had 2 saving throw proficiencies that are not Dex).

Meanwhile, Offensive CR can drop very quickly. Losing even one Multiattack can drop the dragons Offensive CR a couple of levels. And remember that the extra action granted by Haste can only be used to take the Attack action (plus Rogue stuff), so it cannot be used to Multiattack.

You would have to calculate the exact changes on a dragon-by-dragon basis, but in general the Offensive CR drops much more quickly than Defensive CR. That isn't to say don't do it, of course. Spellcasting dragons sound fun.

Beelzebubba
2017-04-21, 12:07 PM
All creatures can try to shove.

Point made, but a 5' shove is next to useless in a room big enough for a dragon, and a creature of it's size and stature should shove more than that.

LeonBH
2017-04-21, 12:34 PM
Well, anyone can grapple, too, and big scary dragons are better at it than most. Then they can grapple-drag you around their lair if they are at least Adult-size, and drop you into hazards..

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-21, 12:54 PM
That depends on what Haste is replacing. The +2 AC brings Defensive CR up by 1, double speed does not change the CR (dragons are already fast anyway), and advantage on Dex saves does not change the CR as well if the dragon was already proficient in it (but you may add 1 to Defensive CR if the dragon had 2 saving throw proficiencies that are not Dex).

Meanwhile, Offensive CR can drop very quickly. Losing even one Multiattack can drop the dragons Offensive CR a couple of levels. And remember that the extra action granted by Haste can only be used to take the Attack action (plus Rogue stuff), so it cannot be used to Multiattack.

You would have to calculate the exact changes on a dragon-by-dragon basis, but in general the Offensive CR drops much more quickly than Defensive CR. That isn't to say don't do it, of course. Spellcasting dragons sound fun.

Just give them Metamagics (the Kobold Sorcerer from Volo's has Metamagic), that way the Dragon can use Quickened Spell everytime he casts a buffing spell.

Phoenix042
2017-04-21, 01:07 PM
Just give them Metamagics (the Kobold Sorcerer from Volo's has Metamagic), that way the Dragon can use Quickened Spell everytime he casts a buffing spell.

This is a brilliant idea; if Sorcerer's get it as an exclusive class feature, and many (or even most) sorcerer's get their spellcasting power from their draconic heritage, it makes TOTAL sense that dragons would have metamagic too.

I've officially adopted this into my game, where the current Adventure's BBEG is a spellcasting variant black dragon (who favors illusion and necromancy magic, and is served by a large entourage of powerful factions with shaky loyalty).

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-21, 01:18 PM
This is a brilliant idea; if Sorcerer's get it as an exclusive class feature, and many (or even most) sorcerer's get their spellcasting power from their draconic heritage, it makes TOTAL sense that dragons would have metamagic too.

I've officially adopted this into my game, where the current Adventure's BBEG is a spellcasting variant black dragon (who favors illusion and necromancy magic, and is served by a large entourage of powerful factions with shaky loyalty).

I'm talking about giving them actual Spellcasting like WotC does with their monsters all the time in their official adventures, something like this:

Joe, the Dragon Rando is a young red dragon with the following changes:

Spellcasting. Joe is a 9th-level spellcaster...

Sorcery Points. Joe has 9 sorcery points. it can spend sorcery points... bla bla bla... to gain one of the following benefits:

<Insert Metamagics here>

Asmotherion
2017-04-21, 01:31 PM
You can aproach this through Natural Spellcasting.

That said, I don't like the Variant rules in the MM too much, so here is my own approach to Dragonic Magic:

First, work under the assumption that every Dragon is a 1st level Sorcerer. Give him the appropriate Spellcasting trait, 4 cantrips and 2 1st level spells. From there on, progress the dragon in whatever spellcasting class you want. The dragon does not gain an archetype, just basic class features. A Spellcaster Dragon's HD is a D6 for as many class levels it has. Recalculate it's max HP accordingly... After all, it's a fair trade-off. He has to loose something to gain Arcane Might, and that is represented in lower than average HP. Also consider a loss of some Legendary Action points and one of the uses of it's Legendary Resistance. It's optional, but makes it more balanced.

JNAProductions
2017-04-21, 02:28 PM
You can aproach this through Natural Spellcasting.

That said, I don't like the Variant rules in the MM too much, so here is my own approach to Dragonic Magic:

First, work under the assumption that every Dragon is a 1st level Sorcerer. Give him the appropriate Spellcasting trait, 4 cantrips and 2 1st level spells. From there on, progress the dragon in whatever spellcasting class you want. The dragon does not gain an archetype, just basic class features. A Spellcaster Dragon's HD is a D6 for as many class levels it has. Recalculate it's max HP accordingly... After all, it's a fair trade-off. He has to loose something to gain Arcane Might, and that is represented in lower than average HP. Also consider a loss of some Legendary Action points and one of the uses of it's Legendary Resistance. It's optional, but makes it more balanced.

Eh... That'd make sense for dragons that focus EXCLUSIVELY on casting, but not for most dragons, who would hone their martial might as well. And there's nothing wrong with having a dragon have all the goodies, so long as their CR is appropriate.

Asmotherion
2017-04-21, 03:54 PM
Eh... That'd make sense for dragons that focus EXCLUSIVELY on casting, but not for most dragons, who would hone their martial might as well. And there's nothing wrong with having a dragon have all the goodies, so long as their CR is appropriate.


Which is the Point in this. Want a full Dragon with some magic? Give him 4 cantrips and a couple 1st level spells. Want an Arcane-Master Dragon? You keep the CR appropriate by lowering his HP a bit. The more spellcasting prowess it has, the less HP. Seems like an interesting trade-off.

mephnick
2017-04-21, 06:13 PM
Man am I the only one who likes dragons who are just big strong forces of nature? I hated 3.5's "every dragon is a super intelligent caster god" BS. They might as well not even be dragons at that point. They're just mages with a different name.

Asmotherion
2017-04-21, 07:01 PM
Man am I the only one who likes dragons who are just big strong forces of nature? I hated 3.5's "every dragon is a super intelligent caster god" BS. They might as well not even be dragons at that point. They're just mages with a different name.


I suppose... It's a classic theme to tie Dragons with Magic, and in most fantasy settings, Dragons are much more than just "Winged, Fire Breathing reptile-like animals", they are intelligent creatures, even more intelligent than humanoids. Otherwise, you're just looking at a fantastic dinosaur species with a different name.

Envyus
2017-04-21, 07:58 PM
There are a few spell casting dragons in storm king.

mephnick
2017-04-21, 08:03 PM
Otherwise, you're just looking at a fantastic dinosaur species with a different name.

I mean...that's what they are in fantasy, intelligent elemental breath dinosaurs. People have thought that was cool enough for centuries without arbitrarily making them all 20th level mages too

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-21, 08:03 PM
There are a few spell casting dragons in storm king.

Hey man, stop right there! That is a big spoiler!


Man am I the only one who likes dragons who are just big strong forces of nature? I hated 3.5's "every dragon is a super intelligent caster god" BS. They might as well not even be dragons at that point. They're just mages with a different name.

But Dragons are GODS! (Or, at least they are really close to be)

Asmotherion
2017-04-21, 09:09 PM
I mean...that's what they are in fantasy, intelligent elemental breath dinosaurs. People have thought that was cool enough for centuries without arbitrarily making them all 20th level mages too
Not really... Dragons represent power at it's most. The top of the food chain. But their lore is always somehow magically linked, and they can also represent wisdom, or hidden knowlage. I mean, they breath fire, that's an obvious magical effect, and even if you can explain it via pseudobiology, we're talking about a world were magic is an everyday thing. In such a world, a so magical being such as the Dragon is bound to be an inteligent creature with at least some Arcane Might.

If you want an elemental breathing dino, you can make a custom Kaiju-like creature... Or, like, add the Half Dragon template to a Tyranosaurus, and there, you got Godzilla. A Dragon is much more than that, it's surounded with Mystery, Archetypical Lore and much more.

For example, there is the story of the evil red dragon that abducts the maiden, who then gets saved by Prince Charming... Why was the Dragon abducting virgin girls, if he was just a beast... it would just have eaten her on the spot, if that was the case. Or the Dragon that Hoards treasure... Why would a non-intelligent creature care about Gold? Even if it's just because it's shiny, it would include glass and non precious metals in it's Hoard. It's Hoard is an other proof a Dragon knows and understands full well the concept and value of gold and diamons, else it would be content with common baubles. Finally, we have the concept of Evil Dragons (and good ones ofcourse, though more rarelly in western medieval archetypes). How can something with beast intelligence be truelly Evil, and thus how can the "Holy Hero" be named as such, if the Dragon grasps no concept of good and evil. Remove that from the story, and the Valland Hero becomes just a regular hunter.

In the East on the other hand, Dragons were worshiped as the rough equivalent of a saint or deity. They are the ones who taught humans to read and wright, and taught the the people many sciences, like astronomy for example.

The Dragon is an Archetypical Figure in many stories, not a custom monster created by Wizards of the Coast, and they did a good job bringing them to their game in all their spellcasting glory. Any other replyle that can fly, breath fire, be 20 feet tall and eat you for breakfast belongs to the Kaiju archetype, just like Godzila. They are not Dragons, rather than something diferent.

mephnick
2017-04-21, 09:20 PM
Ok all of that proves they're very intelligent, which I agree with, none of it points to dragons being spellcasters in traditional fantasy. That's what I have problems with.

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-21, 09:51 PM
Ok all of that proves they're very intelligent, which I agree with, none of it points to dragons being spellcasters in traditional fantasy. That's what I have problems with.

Well, Glaurung from Silmarillion seems to have a ****-ton of magical powers, like freezing someone with his eyes (hold person) and messing with peoples memories (some kind of modify memory spell).

Zman
2017-04-21, 10:11 PM
I'd say give them a selection of limited use magics, make casting them legendary actions. And try to pick fitting spells that aren't to overt. Hold person would be great, a globe of invulnerability would be cool, a charm would be good etc. but teleport? Nope. Come of cold for the red dragon, nope. Fireball or scorching ray, or a burning hands for the red dragon, sure!


Adding most spells add flavor and capability but won't rather up the CR. No, give a Dragon meteor swarm on the other hand....

Asmotherion
2017-04-22, 12:18 AM
Ok all of that proves they're very intelligent, which I agree with, none of it points to dragons being spellcasters in traditional fantasy. That's what I have problems with.

Well, first we have Tiamat, who the Wizards of the Coast actually borrow from Sumerian Mythology, and was an actual mythological Dragon goddess of the occean, assosiated with magic as well.

Same thing with Typhon, the Dragon of Chaos in Greek mythology, who fought against Zeus, and even won the first round, and was a personification of Chaos and Chthonian energys... prety magical in his own right. He could manifest a thousand dragon heads, and the ability to create Hurricanes, thus his name "Typhon" which means Hurricane in greek. His breath burned like a volcano, and he was the original master of the storms, before Zeus. He even could appear as a human or Titan, though he was none of those things.

Satan and other demons in Christianism are often depicted as Red Dragons, and witches gain their magical abilities from worshiping (among other stuff) Satan and Demons in the Christianic lore.

Now, besides gods, we also have other popular medieval and even antiquity tales about Dragon Spellcasters:

-Melusine, a woman depicted in 1312 Frensh heroic poem "The Vows of the Peacock" by Jacque de Longuyon, who was a transformed Dragon.
-Also, a king that was actually a dragon in "The Green Serpant"
-In the tales of the Argonauts, there is a Dragon who guards the Golden Fleece. It could plant it's teeth like seeds, and a soldier from the Underworld would grow from it, and serve whoever planted the tooth. One of the frist historical wrightings about non-divination focused Necromancy actually.
-An other Dragon in Ancient Greece who guarded the garden of esperides, and the golden apples that granted immortality. It had the power to breath fire, and turn you into stone by it's gaze.
-Then of cource the Lernean Hydra who Hercules defeated, who in some variations of the Myth was a Dragon that when you cut one of it's heads it grew 2 in it's place. It also was capable of speach in many variations of the myth (as were most of the magical creatures).


There are many tales, lore and mythologies directly linking Dragons to the occult and depicting them with various magical abilities actually. Their magic however usually does not take part in the battle, as it's usually depicted as a barier the Hero must overcome before facing the dragon, to make the fight fare. Thus, tradition has it that the Hero must first find a way to neutralise the Dragon's magic, before facing it in melee combat, and as stories go, he manages.

Unoriginal
2017-04-22, 07:11 PM
Well, Glaurung from Silmarillion seems to have a ****-ton of magical powers, like freezing someone with his eyes (hold person) and messing with peoples memories (some kind of modify memory spell).

Dragons in Tolkien had mind-control powers.

DragonSorcererX
2017-04-22, 07:16 PM
Dragons in Tolkien had mind-control powers.

So, Tolkien's dragons had psionic powers instead of magical powers? HA! :smallamused:

Unoriginal
2017-04-22, 07:20 PM
Same thing with Typhon, the Dragon of Chaos in Greek mythology, who fought against Zeus, and even won the first round, and was a personification of Chaos and Chthonian energys

What the hell. Typhon is not "the Dragon of Chaos" in any mythology, let alone th Greek one. And he was sure as hell not the personification of Chaos.


Typhon was the last of the major children of Gaia, and he had multiple dragons (or serpents, Greeks didn't make the distinction) as heads. He was an extremely powerful being with control over natural forces, but that's not the same as Chaos.


You have a point that several dragons or dragon-like beings are noted to have magical powers, it's not the same as being spellcasters. A LOT of DnD's monsters have innate magic powers, too.

The rest of your post has several inaccuracies, though.

Finback
2017-04-23, 09:04 PM
I mean...that's what they are in fantasy, intelligent elemental breath dinosaurs. People have thought that was cool enough for centuries without arbitrarily making them all 20th level mages too

My intention isn't to make them all that way though, just this particular one, who is smarter than the average dragon.

dinosaurs themselves are inherently cool, but once in a while, it's nice to have one who does something new and different - like Dr. Dinosaur.

RickAllison
2017-04-24, 09:04 AM
My intention isn't to make them all that way though, just this particular one, who is smarter than the average dragon.

dinosaurs themselves are inherently cool, but once in a while, it's nice to have one who does something new and different - like Dr. Dinosaur.

I had a Bard T-Rex who was a professor. He had a lute specially (and magically) made to work with his tiny arms, and one of his signature spells was Destructive Wrath.

Beelzebubba
2017-04-24, 09:52 AM
Man am I the only one who likes dragons who are just big strong forces of nature? I hated 3.5's "every dragon is a super intelligent caster god" BS. They might as well not even be dragons at that point. They're just mages with a different name.

In AD&D some of them were. Few Black and Green dragons could even talk. Most Red dragons could talk, and some had spells.

But, the idea of having percentage rolls for monsters (65% chance of speaking, 10% chance of spellcasting) are long gone.

Finback
2017-04-26, 04:05 AM
I had a Bard T-Rex who was a professor. He had a lute specially (and magically) made to work with his tiny arms, and one of his signature spells was Destructive Wrath.

Did he work the lute with superior science crystals? :D

https://68.media.tumblr.com/6608de743694b0b9897996b228046ac4/tumblr_mzw7crNYRc1qky2i3o1_500.jpg

Seruvius
2017-04-26, 04:55 AM
I would perosnally suggest taking a leaf out of Matt Coleville and 4th editions book, by adding a bunch of passive magic-like abilities to your larger older dragons. Auras of damage, ways to modify its breath, magical legendary actions, a special reactions when it hits half HP etc. are all some ideas that not only help to make the dragon more versatile, but help to differentiate its spellcasting from PC's spellcasting and stop it being just a big bag of flying HP with a breath weapon. Giving a single big bad like a dragon spells cast normally tends to gimp it in the action economy, though it does give ti some interesting things to do when waiting for its breath to recharge. As most fights are done within 5 turns and hence we can expect 1 maybe 2 breaths in that time, you would likely only have 4 or so turns of spellcasting, so keeping it simple by just adding a few spell-like abilities saves you all the bookkeeping of tacking on player levels and figuring out the CR, whicha s others have pointed out is a bit wonky in this case anyway.