Immortality ( or undeath ) as a 1st level human Commoner

[Conradine]

In a standard ( Greyhawk ) D&D setting, what is the safest, most accessible, most "sure" way for a normal person ( 1st level commoner ) to cheat death?

I mean, while retaining his "self" ( memory, personality, consciousness and - most important - soul ), even if the alignment may change.

[Bronk]

They could take the Wedded to History feat at level one...

[Conradine]

That would not be a "normal" person. I mean something your Average Joe Commoner can do.
So far, I was thinking about becoming a ghoul or another kind of intelligent undead due vicious behiavour.

[Vizzerdrix]

Several races are able to live forever. Warforged, elans, kiloriens...

[Necroticplague]

Pay a powerful wizard to cast Kissed by the Ages on you. Cost a lot of dough (considerably cheaper if you're willing to resort to cheese), but can be done by literally anyone.

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... Animate Dread Warrior and Curst are both Faerun-specific. Hmm....

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. Find a spawn-creating undead.
2. Make arrangements that ensure adventurers will kill said undead shortly.
3. Go bother said spawn-creating undead.
4. Avoid getting killed by the adventurers.
5. Profit!

It's hardly foolproof, but it's simple.

[Bronk]

That would not be a "normal" person. I mean something your Average Joe Commoner can do.
So far, I was thinking about becoming a ghoul or another kind of intelligent undead due vicious behiavour.

Ah, you mean something a person who was already a commoner 1 with all their feats chosen could do. Also, not a commoner of an already immortal race too then.

[Zanos]

Vampire Lords can create vampires out of 1 HD characters. You'll need to kill the vampire lord somehow afterwards, though.

[Gildedragon]

Die in such a way that one turns into a ghost
Call out Pazuzu three times into the night wind
Buy a trap of Last Breath, make sure to die on it.

[icefractal]

Well technically Elan-ification is an IC thing. Probably expensive though.

If you don't mind being someone's minion, get bitten by a Vampire and turned into a Vampire Spawn. Not the greatest template but not the worst either

Edit: Swordsaged, I see.

[Segev]

Hunt down a color pool to the Astral Plane that you can access physically. It's timeless, so you won't age as long as you stay there. Just...don't come back if you don't want to suddenly "catch up" on all those years you physically missed. This can, if you wait long enough, kill you.



I actually had a party in a Githyanki fort on the Astral plane interacting with a old githyanki wizard when something the PCs did shifted the entire tower to the Material plane. The wizard suddenly withered to ash, and a much-younger-looking githyanki burst out of a hidden room to berate them for their carelessness. He'd been on the Astral for centuries, and his clone triggered when he died of sudden old age.

[Bronk]

Wander through a few portals until you reach a timeless plane, like the Astral or the Court of Stars.

Get bitten and turned by a vampire, or a wight, or a shadow.

[Zanos]

I don't think most spawn creation methods apply, since a Shadow/Wight/Vampire Spawn has it's own set of independent statistics that aren't at all affected by the statistics of the base creature.

[Bronk]

I don't think most spawn creation methods apply, since a Shadow/Wight/Vampire Spawn has it's own set of independent statistics that aren't at all affected by the statistics of the base creature.

IIRC, they're described as rising as the new undead, versus being replaced by them.

[Zanos]

IIRC, they're described as rising as the new undead, versus being replaced by them.
Sure, but OP asked for:


while retaining his "self" ( memory, personality, consciousness and - most important - soul ), even if the alignment may change.

I'm suspicious of the notion that farmers killed by wights go back to farming when they get back up.

[Segev]

I'm suspicious of the notion that farmers killed by wights go back to farming when they get back up.

This isn't the most persuasive of arguments for them losing themselves, though. Consider: if you were slain, and found yourself rising again as an undead creature without your former needs and presumably not exactly looking like somebody who could walk back into your old life and just have things continue as they were, would you keep your current job? Or would you take this (un)life change and shift directions a bit?

[Gildedragon]

Sure, but OP asked for:



I'm suspicious of the notion that farmers killed by wights go back to farming when they get back up.

Paladin: What the?! This farm is full of undead!
Peasant: Yeah, that's Freddie for you; never missed a day of work. Died in summer and came right back up to help with the harvest. Ain't too bright now, but thenagain he never was what we'd call Wizard material

[Zancloufer]

Army of farmer wrights would actually work really well. Since they don't need sleep or sustenance they can farm 24/7 for the entire farming season. Super cost effective if you can convince them to stick around and they don't turn the crops into some sort of plant based undead.

[frogglesmash]

Army of farmer wrights would actually work really well. Since they don't need sleep or sustenance they can farm 24/7 for the entire farming season. Super cost effective if you can convince them to stick around and they don't turn the crops into some sort of plant based undead.

Can ordinary plants get negative levels?

[Gildedragon]

Can ordinary plants get negative levels?

Commoner: Oh! And sir Paladin, stay away from the Rutabaga... it came up particularly mean and evil this year.

[Rijan_Sai]

Paladin: What the?! This farm is full of undead!
Peasant: Yeah, that's Freddie for you; never missed a day of work. Died in summer and came right back up to help with the harvest. Ain't too bright now, but thenagain he never was what we'd call Wizard material

Shaun of the Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365748/), refluffed for a D&D campaign!

[frogglesmash]

Shaun of the Dead (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0365748/), refluffed for a D&D campaign!

Sounds more like a situation you'd find in Diskworld to me.

[Lazymancer]

Imo, ghouls and the other non-templated undead are clearly not continuing their former lives. It's basically Animate Dead and Awaken Undead.

[Psyren]

The trouble with intelligent undead is that it's not actually your intelligence. Your memories and maybe even some of your outlook are in there, but ultimately it's still something new - or at least, you but perverted - wearing your face.

At least, that's how it works in default D&D, per Complete Divine and Libris Mortis. Other settings may approach this differently. As more and more time passes, I'd expect that being's personality to diverge even further from the one you originally had, having no recognizable family and friends after a time.

[ShurikVch]

Paladin: What the?! This farm is full of undead!
Peasant: Yeah, that's Freddie for you; never missed a day of work. Died in summer and came right back up to help with the harvest. Ain't too bright now, but thenagain he never was what we'd call Wizard materialIt reminded me about the Dairy Farm (http://ghostbusters.wikia.com/wiki/Dairy_Farm)... :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

Well, an infinite amount of chickens is a fairly potent bargaining chip and would allow one to afford whatever payment is necessary for the process.

If one's friendly local high-level caster in a metropolis can't help you with the immortality or sapient undeadness themselves, they might be able to help with getting a magically binding contract with someone who can provide that service.

Oh, actually, are there any forms of Vampire Lord that could be accessed through Planar Binding and the like?

[Vogie]

Paladin: What the?! This farm is full of undead!
Peasant: Yeah, that's Freddie for you; never missed a day of work. Died in summer and came right back up to help with the harvest. Ain't too bright now, but thenagain he never was what we'd call Wizard material

That's one of the key schticks to the new MTG block - the dead are mummified and return to be laborers, to the point where the entire city has nothing to do but follow their dreams, as all the work is done by zombies. We'll probably see a Plane Shift companion for 5e when the block is over with.

[DGIF2015]

Pay a powerful wizard to cast Kissed by the Ages on you. Cost a lot of dough (considerably cheaper if you're willing to resort to cheese), but can be done by literally anyone.

sweet :smallbiggrin:

[Gildedragon]

That's one of the key schticks to the new MTG block - the dead are mummified and return to be laborers, to the point where the entire city has nothing to do but follow their dreams, as all the work is done by zombies. We'll probably see a Plane Shift companion for 5e when the block is over with.

The Necromantic Revolution is, I think, one of the easiest ways for industrialization in D&D

No slaves, nor serfs, nor menial workers, nor foot soldiers. just undead laborers.
In life people are made literate and pushed towards Mental-Stat jobs. Physical sorta become guards and the sort.
Debt becomes payable post mortem.

[mabriss lethe]

A level 1 commoner with Death Devotion can commit suicide with a weapon that they've imbued with the devotion power and will rise as a Wight the next midnight.

[Pyromancer999]

May just be my cursory glancing through the thread, but don't see anyone mentioning Necropolitan. Costs you a little Con(which you lose), but gives you the Undead type and you keep your mind and independencem As long as one has the texts and a buddy to help, it's not hard to manage.

[rel]

I thought becoming a necropolitan always cost you a level and flat out failed if you were level 1.

[mabriss lethe]

May just be my cursory glancing through the thread, but don't see anyone mentioning Necropolitan. Costs you a little Con(which you lose), but gives you the Undead type and you keep your mind and independencem As long as one has the texts and a buddy to help, it's not hard to manage.

For Lvl 1, Necropolitan is a no go. The ritual automatically drains a level of experience, destroying you if you don't have a level to drain, it then hits you up for 1000 more XP. If that hit drops you below 0xp it also destroys you.

[Thurbane]

That would not be a "normal" person. I mean something your Average Joe Commoner can do.
So far, I was thinking about becoming a ghoul or another kind of intelligent undead due vicious behiavour.

I'm not sure I follow - you want it to be something a "normal" commoner could do, but using feats available to everyone* (assuming Dragon Magazine material is in play) makes him "abnormal"?

By definition, any immortal Commoner is not going to be "normal" by most meanings of the word, regardless of whether they are a Highlander-style immortal, or an undead abomination...

I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm trying to understand the parameters of this build request.

[Conradine]

I'm not sure I follow - you want it to be something a "normal" commoner could do, but using feats available to everyone* (assuming Dragon Magazine material is in play) makes him "abnormal"?

By definition, any immortal Commoner is not going to be "normal" by most meanings of the word, regardless of whether they are a Highlander-style immortal, or an undead abomination...

I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm trying to understand the parameters of this build request.


I explained myself poorly.

There is a common , normal person like the farmers and labourers we read about in R.A. Salvatore novels. Ok, it's the Forgotten Realms but whatever.
That person desires to live forever, no matter how.

What would be the most *plausible* course of action to achieve that goal?
Something that a normal person obsessed with his mortality would be able to think about and actually do?

[Dappershire]

What would be the most *plausible* course of action to achieve that goal?
Something that a normal person obsessed with his mortality would be able to think about and actually do?


Become an adventurer. Join a group. Git gud. Question Gods. Become wealth. Utilize the numerous ways of achieving immortality.

Anything else is only going to get you killed. Even the numerous necromantic ways of "immortality" are not going to help you. Because to reach those ways, you have to bypass other, deadly but not undeadly, horrors first.

Unless your the pretty farmer's daughter npc, who the local adventuring party have connected with. Then you're guaranteed to be kidnapped and vampirized.

[Segev]

Unless your the pretty farmer's daughter npc, who the local adventuring party have connected with. Then you're guaranteed to be kidnapped and vampirized.

Or were already a succubus. But getting into retroactive continuity is probably not healthy for your average farmer.

[Jack_Simth]

The trouble with intelligent undead is that it's not actually your intelligence. Your memories and maybe even some of your outlook are in there, but ultimately it's still something new - or at least, you but perverted - wearing your face.

At least, that's how it works in default D&D, per Complete Divine and Libris Mortis. Other settings may approach this differently. As more and more time passes, I'd expect that being's personality to diverge even further from the one you originally had, having no recognizable family and friends after a time.

How sure are you of that? That section in Libris Mortis is prefaced with "Below are some of the more widely accepted theories" (page 5) - marking it pretty clearly as fluff text that does not have rules weight. I'm not finding the section of Complete Divine... got a page reference?

[Psyren]

How sure are you of that? That section in Libris Mortis is prefaced with "Below are some of the more widely accepted theories" (page 5) - marking it pretty clearly as fluff text that does not have rules weight. I'm not finding the section of Complete Divine... got a page reference?

Of course it's fluff; we're talking about monsters here, which puts them under the control of the GM unless he/she decides otherwise, and the whole point of fluff is to give the GM pointers about running their world. A player can't simply choose to play an undead creature on their own, or else they'd be in the PHB.

The Complete Divine quote is on page 126, "Making the Passage":


The souls of characters who die in specific ways sometimes become undead. Those driven to suicide by madness become allips, while humanoids destroyed by absolute evil become hodaks. As with ghosts, the soul creates a new body, whether it's incorporeal such as an allip's or corporeal such as a bodak's. The soul is twisted toward evil if it wasn't already. The new undead creature retains some general memories of its former life, but doesn't necessarily have the same mental ability scores, skills, feats, or other abilities. Not every suicide victim becomes an allip, and not everyone destroyed by absolute evil becomes a bodak; as with ghosts, the exact nature of the transformation is unknown. Similarly, liches are characters who've voluntarily transformed themselves into undead, trapping their souls in skeletal bodies.

Some undead such as vampires and wights create spawn out of a character they kill, trapping the soul of the deceased in a body animated by negative energy and controlled by a malign intelligence. Sometimes the undead creature can access the memories of the deceased (vampires, spectres, ghouls, and ghasts can), and sometimes they can't (as with shadows, wights, and wraiths).

Note that latter entry is almost verbatim what the Giant did to Durkon in OotS.

As for the Libris Mortis entries being theories - in the words of a brilliant Salarian I know, "No proof, but theory fits evidence."

[Jack_Simth]

Of course it's fluff; we're talking about monsters here, which puts them under the control of the GM unless he/she decides otherwise, and the whole point of fluff is to give the GM pointers about running their world. A player can't simply choose to play an undead creature on their own, or else they'd be in the PHB.In terms of the Libris Mortis, you're treating a section clearly labeled as "maybe" in the text as being a definitely in this discussion. That's a problem.


The Complete Divine quote is on page 126, "Making the Passage":



Note that latter entry is almost verbatim what the Giant did to Durkon in OotS.

As for the Libris Mortis entries being theories - in the words of a brilliant Salarian I know, "No proof, but theory fits evidence."
Which, oddly enough, in the surrounding context also includes various undeads that stay themselves, or very close to it. Like, say, the bullet point immediately prior to the two you quoted. Or even the segment you quoted on liches.

[Psyren]

In terms of the Libris Mortis, you're treating a section clearly labeled as "maybe" in the text as being a definitely in this discussion. That's a problem.

It's the only theory that fits the mechanics (e.g. Vampires having your memories but being evil by RAW.) If you have another official one that fits, feel free to share it.



Which, oddly enough, in the surrounding context also includes various undeads that stay themselves, or very close to it. Like, say, the bullet point immediately prior to the two you quoted. Or even the segment you quoted on liches.

The part before that concerns ghosts (not "various undeads"), which are explicitly a unique case.

And of course liches stay themselves. It's just that "themselves" are already unspeakably evil, as noted in the RAW for becoming one. You can houserule that if you wish.

[Socksy]

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Wish to become an Elan (Wish can replicate Polymorph Any Object).
If you're not so worried about staying yourself, wish to be something a bunch more powerful instead. Small dragon, maybe, so you can go dracolich eventually. You can't be a dragon smarter than you or the spell won't be permanent.


Alternatively, buddy up to a druid and ask to occasionally get killed and reincarnated.

[Bronk]

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu. Wish to become an Elan (Wish can replicate Polymorph Any Object).
If you're not so worried about staying yourself, wish to be something a bunch more powerful instead. Small dragon, maybe, so you can go dracolich eventually. You can't be a dragon smarter than you or the spell won't be permanent.

Pretty dangerous! If you're getting the wish though, you'd be better off using it to transform directly into another creature using the rules from Savage Species and avoid the limitations of PAO.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well technically Elan-ification is an IC thing. Probably expensive though.
Yeah, but it only works if you have an evil twin to hit you in your soft, underdeveloped baby skull.



Wander through a few portals until you reach a timeless plane, like the Astral or the Court of Stars.
Get bitten and turned by a vampire, or a wight, or a shadow.
Both of those were suggested. One of them by me. Speaking of which...



I don't think most spawn creation methods apply, since a Shadow/Wight/Vampire Spawn has it's own set of independent statistics that aren't at all affected by the statistics of the base creature.
Not a good argument. Statistics != Soul
(Also, see below.)


I'm suspicious of the notion that farmers killed by wights go back to farming when they get back up.
Of course not. They don't need to eat anymore. They'd probably make more money working as a dockworker or something.
More to the point...most spawn-making undead don't talk about what happens to the victim's soul, consciousness, personality, or memories. So it's up to DM fiat whether any given method would work. Unless, of course, you have a template; it's a lot harder to argue that you keep your skills, special abilities, and so on but not your memories and identity than to argue the other way around.
Whaddya know; sufficiently high-leveled people killed and spawned by vampires become templated vampires. If you have Libris Mortis, the same is true of basically every spawny undead.



The Necromantic Revolution is, I think, one of the easiest ways for industrialization in D&D

No slaves, nor serfs, nor menial workers, nor foot soldiers. just undead laborers.
In life people are made literate and pushed towards Mental-Stat jobs. Physical sorta become guards and the sort.
Debt becomes payable post mortem.
I have some other thoughts on the matter, but they're not suitable for this thread. (None of them involve immortalizing mortal labors.) I'll try to collect my thoughts and get a new thread up and running on them.



It's the only theory that fits the mechanics (e.g. Vampires having your memories but being evil by RAW.) If you have another official one that fits, feel free to share it.
There are ways to make someone more "evil" without resorting to magic; diseases can affect behavior, brain damage can make people start to manifest behavior which makes them more aggressive, selfish, and so on, sufficient brainwashing can make people think wrong is right, raising a normal child (probably neutral) wrongly enough can make them into a sociopath/serial killer/lawyer, etc. And there are entire stories to write about how ordinary people, or even heroes, turn down the path of darkness...many of which have been written (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StartOfDarkness).
With magic in the game, the possibilities are even more endless. The first obvious counterexample is the Helm of Opposite Alignment. If a paladin puts one of those on by accident, they become chaotic evil; did their soul get kicked out and replaced with a new evil one? Is it imprisoned in their body and replaced by a new one conjured ex nihilo? Does this hypothetical evil soul die when you return to your original alignment? That's ridiculous by most interpretations, but it's exactly what your explanation implies. It's easy to argue that the contagious dark magic which animates such undead has an effect on one's moral compass, especially for undead which control their spawn after their undeath...unrising...after being made.
And if nothing else...imagine that you're a farmer in a typical D&D world. Consensually or (more likely) not, some terrible walking corpse slays you with its dark powers, then drags your body and soul from their proper resting places to make you into an abomination like it. You might have a hunger for blood, or flesh, or souls, and it gnaws at you. You're saying this couldn't change someone's alignment?


And one last note about undead keeping the original's souls...


A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell.

You might think that that's just because the undead creature is still using the body, or because the undead desecrated the body, but other resurrection spells disagree.


You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Okay, so there's probably some desecration going on, but it's not just that. While former undead can be returned to life, the undead must be destroyed first. Even if you only need some small bit of their body, and the rest of the corpse can be in a swamp somewhere (as long as it's not reanimated). Even if you don't need any bit of the body at all, your meaty exterior being used as an undead prevents resurrection. There's something going on with the soul, and it fits almost perfectly with the undead being's original soul still being in the body. You could argue that something like Durkula is going on, but I've already given reasons to doubt that that's the reason undead are evil.

[Zanos]

Not a good argument. Statistics != Soul
(Also, see below.)
No, but your mental ability scores, all of which are jumbled around with non-template undead, are tied to your soul, as shown by petitioners/magic jar/mind switch. And they're also tied to, ya'know, your sentience. Also the fact that it loses anything it gained from it's memories like skills/feats/class features indicates there's definitely a lose of continuity of sentience, even if it's the "same" soul.

In any case, thinking that someone turned into a wight will be anything at all like their former self is just wrong.


Of course not. They don't need to eat anymore. They'd probably make more money working as a dockworker or something.
I hoped it was obvious that I was making an amusing observation at the suggestion that a wight would be particularly interested in returning to any aspect of their former lives, considering they mostly just murder people. Considering their MM description that "They seek to destroy all life, filling graveyards with their victims and populating the world with their horrid progeny." So yeah, dockworker wights are still equally ridiculous.

[Socksy]

Pretty dangerous! If you're getting the wish though, you'd be better off using it to transform directly into another creature using the rules from Savage Species and avoid the limitations of PAO.

Oh, I didn't know SS had its own rules for that. Even better!

[Zaq]

I thought becoming a necropolitan always cost you a level and flat out failed if you were level 1.

You're correct about that, I think. Now, I don't have the relevant book open, but is it possible to cheese around that with Inspire Greatness?

[rel]

The issue is that you are actually killed during the ritual of Crucimigration. Your dead body is then reanimated at the rituals conclusion and the level loss is a result of the method by which you were brought back to (un)life just like how raise dead brings you back at the cost of a level.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I have some other thoughts on the matter, but they're not suitable for this thread. (None of them involve immortalizing mortal labors.) I'll try to collect my thoughts and get a new thread up and running on them.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?522922-Industrializing-a-Setting&p=21948742#post21948742) is that thread, if you're interested in a discussion of how to bring Greyhawk into the industrial era.



No, but your mental ability scores, all of which are jumbled around with non-template undead, are tied to your soul, as shown by petitioners/magic jar/mind switch. And they're also tied to, ya'know, your sentience. Also the fact that it loses anything it gained from it's memories like skills/feats/class features indicates there's definitely a lose of continuity of sentience, even if it's the "same" soul.
I was about to make some counterarguments, then I remembered that the templates are far from standard.


In any case, thinking that someone turned into a wight will be anything at all like their former self is just wrong.
Why? Because they're more violent? The same argument could be made for zillions of real-world experiences, and it would be blatantly wrong in those cases. I'd go on, but I already did and you ignored it there.

[Segev]

I don't like, in general, the idea of intelligent undead functioning like Durkon does. Amongst other things, it means that a lot of classic "vampire stories" are lies. The creatures don't experience any sorrow over their state, nor have difficulty learning to reconcile their unnatural hungers and urges with their rational sense that they should be disgusted.

However, thinking on it, it makes a certain sense for, say, vampire spawn to be that way. Perhaps because the soul of the victim is too weak to survive the damage of the transformation and thus an opportunistic parasite slips in, bound in obedience to the vampire that gave it i life/access. Which is why vampire spawn aren't the same stat block as they were when alive, just with a template added, but vampires are.

[Bronk]

From a newer thread, forgewraith spawn are specifically called out as being transformed spirits of the slain...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?523414-The-Fate-of-Characters-Slain-by-a-Forgewraith-(Sharn)&p=21965038#post21965038

[Strigon]

Paladin: What the?! This farm is full of undead!
Peasant: Yeah, that's Freddie for you; never missed a day of work. Died in summer and came right back up to help with the harvest. Ain't too bright now, but thenagain he never was what we'd call Wizard material

...
Can I use this?

[Gildedragon]

...
Can I use this?

By all means

[Bohandas]

The Necromantic Revolution is, I think, one of the easiest ways for industrialization in D&D

No slaves, nor serfs, nor menial workers, nor foot soldiers. just undead laborers.

As an aside, probably the draft animals would be undead too. Use the bones from that cow you just made into hamburger to haul some stuff. I don;t understand why more necromancers don't operate out of meatpacking districts.

[mabriss lethe]

As an aside, probably the draft animals would be undead too. Use the bones from that cow you just made into hamburger to haul some stuff. I don;t understand why more necromancers don't operate out of meatpacking districts.

Because bones aren't exactly a waste product from meat production for most of human history. Bones were just as much of a food source as the rest of the animal.

[Gildedragon]

Because bones aren't exactly a waste product from meat production for most of human history. Bones were just as much of a food source as the rest of the animal.

True. Marrow, bone ash... Etc
The compunctions against eating peepz means the skellies are gonna be left behind.

[Coidzor]

Still, bones are cheap enough that it wouldn't really notably increase the price of animating a cow skeleton.

[Matrota]

Make your commoner 'virtuous,' possibly with one or two vows, and then have them die to protect another person. Boom, they qualify for the sacred watcher template, and since they're acquiring it after the game starts, they don't suffer LA.

[Zanos]

Make your commoner 'virtuous,' possibly with one or two vows, and then have them die to protect another person. Boom, they qualify for the sacred watcher template, and since they're acquiring it after the game starts, they don't suffer LA.
You still take the LA for templates acquired during play, unless there's some specific rule for that particular template.

[Matrota]

You still take the LA for templates acquired during play, unless there's some specific rule for that particular template.

Hm, perhaps that's just a houserule my DM uses then.

[Segev]

Rules for gaining LA post-game-start, though, are that you just HAVE the higher ECL and have to earn the XP to reach it before you can start earning XP to pass it.

It is a legitimate power-jump, but so are any of the "become undead" ideas we've had so far that would be a higher-than-CR-1 undead.

Since you're not planning on leveling up anyway, may as well go for the biggest LA you can get your hands on. It's "free" leveling!

[Coidzor]

Sacred Watchers only die when they hit a high enough level, IIRC, so, yeah, that's pretty ingenuous. Nice catch!

[Matrota]

You could also have them be murdered and just be really angry about dying, giving them the revenant template from MoF. You could run the ghostwalk setting and have them be a ghost.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You could also have them be murdered and just be really angry about dying, giving them the revenant template from MoF.
I'm trying to imagine how someone could actually pull this off intentionally.
"Hey, buddy, I need you to find someone to murder me. But in a way I'll be really, really angry about. Okay? Okay."
"I'm dying! Yes! ...I mean, no! Curse you, unexpected murderer!"

[Bronk]

I'm trying to imagine how someone could actually pull this off intentionally.
"Hey, buddy, I need you to find someone to murder me. But in a way I'll be really, really angry about. Okay? Okay."
"I'm dying! Yes! ...I mean, no! Curse you, unexpected murderer!"

Tell him a really good joke... then hold back the punchline.