Question on Dominate Person

[Aristocracy]

Hey peeps,

Just wondering how dominated creatures react if they are are not given any orders. Will they act normally? Will they even know they were dominated? What if you use the telepathic link to gain access to their senses-- does this alert them to your presence?

For context, I'm looking specifically at the Mother Cyst feat in Libris Mortis and Necrotic Domination and Necrotic Tumor spells. I wouldn't have the telepathic link with Necrotic Tumor, but it could be interesting to have several "Sleeper agents" around town living out their lives.

[Hunter Noventa]

They would either act normally, or you'd have to give them a standing order to do so, depending on your DM.

I don't believe characters are necessarily aware of if they've had to make a saving throw for non-obvious effects, so no one should be aware that they're dominated until they are given strange orders, and even then they might not be aware until you order them to do something very contradictory that would grant another saving throw.

[Fouredged Sword]

You are aware you are dominated because you receive a mental command. The command may be to do what you would do if you where not dominated, but you still receive and understand the command. If the dominate fails you can tell you just passed a willsave.

There is a flat DC sense motive check to tell someone is dominated regardless of their actions. Other people can tell you are dominated as well.

That said, predominating the party fighter is a good idea if you are going to fight mindflayers or other foes who like to dominate big meatshields and turn them on the rest of the party. It allows for an extra layer of defense if the mindflayer gets around the protection from evil spell.

[Karl Aegis]

Dominated creatures eat and sleep normally, as well as other activities necessary for day-to-day survival.

[Segev]

I could be mistaken, but I suspect the OP is asking about the following scenario. If he isn't, then I still find the question interesting:

Alice the Archer fails her save against Evan the Enchanter's dominate person spell, but Evan doesn't give her any commands at all...for now. Does Alice know she's been dominated? Can she act as she normally would, since she has no voice in her head compelling her yet, or is she stuck, frozen, with no volition to do anything until she receives a command?

Side question: can domination affect what the victim thinks? i.e., could Evan command Alice to believe that she's not Dominated? Could he command her to believe that he's her friend and to trust him, or could he only command her to act like she believed those things?

[Keltest]

I could be mistaken, but I suspect the OP is asking about the following scenario. If he isn't, then I still find the question interesting:

Alice the Archer fails her save against Evan the Enchanter's dominate person spell, but Evan doesn't give her any commands at all...for now. Does Alice know she's been dominated? Can she act as she normally would, since she has no voice in her head compelling her yet, or is she stuck, frozen, with no volition to do anything until she receives a command?

Side question: can domination affect what the victim thinks? i.e., could Evan command Alice to believe that she's not Dominated? Could he command her to believe that he's her friend and to trust him, or could he only command her to act like she believed those things?

My take on it is that since she hasn't been given a command to stand still and wait for further orders, she would go about her day as normal, and otherwise act how she normally would, possibly up to and including continuing to fight Evan if they were in combat. She would possibly be aware that a spell was cast on her, but unless she specifically recognized it as dominate person, she wouldn't think about it nor take steps to get dispelled.

[Fouredged Sword]

On a rereading of the RAW you only trigger a sense motive DC 15 check to tell the target is under a enchantment if their behavior is effected by the spell.

On a rereading I would read it as the target may very well be unaware of the dominate. This is actually very useful as you get a sense of their senses and can tell what is going on around them without giving them a command, and as long as you don't give them a command the domination cannot be casually detected with sense motive.

This makes it an interesting day/level spying spell.

[Kallimakus]

Well, it looks like I disagree with the majority here. By my reading, the line that the creature carries out the command it has been issued in exclusion to all activities (barring eating, sleeping and so on) means that a dominated creature is either carrying out a task or doing nothing at all. I also interpret this single-mindedness by the victim as the reason why the Sense motive check is relatively easy and likewise 'act like you are not dominated' is not really possible, because (by my interpretation) it robs the target of any personal agency. Certainly, it will pursue a given task with excellent effectiveness, but being told to act 'undominated' might include remarking it to every passerby.

By this interpretation, a creature is aware that it is dominated, and is equally unable to (consciously or unconsciously) misinterpret or subvert orders. They are followed to the letter (or intent) without any agency of the creature. Basically a living zombie. I might be alone in this restrictive viewpoint however.

[Segev]

Well, it looks like I disagree with the majority here. By my reading, the line that the creature carries out the command it has been issued in exclusion to all activities (barring eating, sleeping and so on) means that a dominated creature is either carrying out a task or doing nothing at all. I also interpret this single-mindedness by the victim as the reason why the Sense motive check is relatively easy and likewise 'act like you are not dominated' is not really possible, because (by my interpretation) it robs the target of any personal agency. Certainly, it will pursue a given task with excellent effectiveness, but being told to act 'undominated' might include remarking it to every passerby.

By this interpretation, a creature is aware that it is dominated, and is equally unable to (consciously or unconsciously) misinterpret or subvert orders. They are followed to the letter (or intent) without any agency of the creature. Basically a living zombie. I might be alone in this restrictive viewpoint however.

I don't think that's an accurate reading of the spell, though. Just because the creature carries out commands to the exclusion of other activities doesn't mean that, given no commands or a command with freedom to choose how to do it, the creature does nothing or suffers decision paralysis. Dominate person prevents refusal, but it doesn't shut down the mind.

In fact, "act like you're not dominated" has no reason why it can't work; at worst, the Sense Motive check comes in because the victim is now second-guessing his own choices. Would he do that if he weren't dominated? He certainly wouldn't tell people he was dominated if he wasn't, so that's one thing he's compelled to do differently than he'd like to.

But nothing in the spell says that the victim can't do anything without a command. Only that, once given a command, that command takes priority over literally everything other than eating, sleeping, and other very basic maintenance of life. Heck, nothing says they can't do other things unrelated to it as long as they don't actually get in the way of efficient completion of the order.

"Do whatever it takes to make me President of the United States," issued to some powerful figures, would get a lot of results and action, all of it geared towards what they think is the most effective way to achieve that order. That wouldn't preclude the Congressman from pursuing his own campaign, as long as he always put yours first. That wouldn't preclude the Party Precinct Chair from pursuing his daily life when in between activities designed to get you the nomination and eventually the election. (It would prevent him from prioritizing his daily life over it, of course, and from announcing to anybody that he's Dominated because that would hinder your chances.)

Now, obviously, this spell gives less leeway than geas, but the "to the exclusion of all else" clause is referring to the immediacy of the action. If there is no immediate action to be taken, nothing in the spell says the victim does nothing. Only that, if there is any immediate action to be taken, the victim of the spell does that, regardless of what else he might have reason to do.

[ksbsnowowl]

This exact scenario happens in the Eberron adventure Whispers of the Vampire's Blade. The BBEG dominates a ship's captain, orders him to tell of any secret holds on his ship where he can hide, then orders the captain to forget that he has such a hidden spot on his his ship, but otherwise act normally.

The adventure does not call out for the PC's to have a chance to notice the captain is acting under a domination effect (barring detect magic, etc). Whether that is purposeful or merely an oversight, who knows.

[Crake]

This exact scenario happens in the Eberron adventure Whispers of the Vampire's Blade. The BBEG dominates a ship's captain, orders him to tell of any secret holds on his ship where he can hide, then orders the captain to forget that he has such a hidden spot on his his ship, but otherwise act normally.

The adventure does not call out for the PC's to have a chance to notice the captain is acting under a domination effect (barring detect magic, etc). Whether that is purposeful or merely an oversight, who knows.

I don't think you can order someone to "forget" something as part of dominate, because that severely overlaps with the effects of other spells like modify memory and whatnot. You could say "act like I'm not there" but should the dominate wear off, or be supressed, the captain would still know what happened.

I'm personally in the camp of dominate robbing someone of personal agency. You cannot act without the order of your master, and even "act as you normally would" would still be jarring and autonomous.

[ksbsnowowl]

I don't think you can order someone to "forget" something as part of dominate, because that severely overlaps with the effects of other spells like modify memory and whatnot. You could say "act like I'm not there" but should the dominate wear off, or be supressed, the captain would still know what happened.

To be clear, the captain was under the domination effect the whole time. It didn't actually cause him to permanently forget; just that he couldn't (or wouldn't) remember the hiding spot existed until after the domination effect ran out or was dispelled.

[rel]

My reading of enchantments in general is that while the spell is in effect the subject is unable to recognise the control for what it is.
Kind of like how you struggle to notice the general wierdness of circumstances in a dream while actually dreaming even though they are obvious in hindsight.

Along the same lines, once the target passes the save, breaks the control or the spell expires they recognise the mental influence for what it was.

As far as not issuing commands, ordering people to act casual and so on, I would say it does not work very well for dominate.

First off, module writers seem unaware of this fact but sense motive has a basic ability to reveal the presence of any mind affecting magic with a DC 25 check.
Hit that DC and you notice a sleeper agent who doesn't even know they were charmed.

Second, dominate is described as very hands on mind control so I would say the lower sense motive DC to notice something always applies even if you instruct the subject to act normal.

Point is even if you rule that dominate can be used to make someone into a sleeper agent sense motive can still reveal them with a DC 25 check and when the spell wears off they will realise something strange was going on. (Although they might not act on that information, saying 'I think I was charmed and betrayed our secret cult last week' is probably a good way to find yourself on the sacrificing altar.)

[KillianHawkeye]

To be clear, the captain was under the domination effect the whole time. It didn't actually cause him to permanently forget; just that he couldn't (or wouldn't) remember the hiding spot existed until after the domination effect ran out or was dispelled.

You can't command somebody to forget something because forgetting isn't an action that people can choose to take. You don't actively forget something, you simply fail to remember it. And likewise, you can't choose to not remember, either. Remembering is something that either happens or fails to happen without any input or active decision-making process. People aren't computers.

At best, you can command someone to act like they don't know about something, but that isn't the same at all.


In fact, "act like you're not dominated" has no reason why it can't work;

Well suppose you're a terrible actor. Maybe you're a Barbarian with horrible mental stats and a poor Will Save (a ripe target for domination). You could very well go around proudly exclaiming how free-willed you are and how lucky it is that you haven't been put under someone else's complete mental control.

It's the same problem as when you're told to "just act normal" in a situation where things are actually not normal at all. For example, you've just learned a horrible secret that affects people you know but, for reasons outside your control, you can't tell anyone about it. Or imagine that someone's been kidnapped and you're being forced to do something the kidnapper wants without giving anything away. A lot of people will have trouble with that. It can be pretty obvious when somebody is putting a lot of thought into doing something "normally" that they'd ordinarily just do without thinking. If you think too much about every step you take, you won't appear to be walking very naturally.

If you walk up to somebody with a deadly serious expression on your face and say "Don't look behind you", plenty of people will instinctively turn and look right away.

[Segev]

I don't think you can order someone to "forget" something as part of dominate, because that severely overlaps with the effects of other spells like modify memory and whatnot. You could say "act like I'm not there" but should the dominate wear off, or be supressed, the captain would still know what happened.

I'm personally in the camp of dominate robbing someone of personal agency. You cannot act without the order of your master, and even "act as you normally would" would still be jarring and autonomous.I would agree that you unambiguously cannot order somebody to think, feel, forget, remember, or believe something and have it persist past the termination of the dominate spell, but I think it is an open question whether you can exert that kind of influence on their mind while the spell is active.

I mean, the spell is flat-out mind control. It spells out specifically that you can compel the subject's behavior and actions. Does "mind control" let you, well, control the subject's MIND, or just the subject's body?

It's a relevant question, because:


You can't command somebody to forget something because forgetting isn't an action that people can choose to take. You don't actively forget something, you simply fail to remember it. And likewise, you can't choose to not remember, either. Remembering is something that either happens or fails to happen without any input or active decision-making process. People aren't computers.

At best, you can command someone to act like they don't know about something, but that isn't the same at all.



Well suppose you're a terrible actor. Maybe you're a Barbarian with horrible mental stats and a poor Will Save (a ripe target for domination). You could very well go around proudly exclaiming how free-willed you are and how lucky it is that you haven't been put under someone else's complete mental control.

It's the same problem as when you're told to "just act normal" in a situation where things are actually not normal at all. For example, you've just learned a horrible secret that affects people you know but, for reasons outside your control, you can't tell anyone about it. Or imagine that someone's been kidnapped and you're being forced to do something the kidnapper wants without giving anything away. A lot of people will have trouble with that. It can be pretty obvious when somebody is putting a lot of thought into doing something "normally" that they'd ordinarily just do without thinking. If you think too much about every step you take, you won't appear to be walking very naturally.

If you walk up to somebody with a deadly serious expression on your face and say "Don't look behind you", plenty of people will instinctively turn and look right away.

If you're able to actually control their mind, when you order them to act as if and believe they're not dominated, their belief in it becomes enforced method acting. If you can't compel their beliefs, then they are stuck having to pretend. And yes, "Act normal" is not easy when you know things aren't normal. You don't even have to go into mind control to see this; in fiction, it's common for a character who normally behaves quite comfortably in his environment to suddenly have something unusual going on that he needs to hide by "acting natural." The most straight-forward might be knowledge that the customer he was just helping, and whom he must go back to helping, is actually a gun-carrying psycho escaped from the loony bin. (Happened at least twice in a couple variations in Night Court, not to mention the times Dan has been wired to try to ferret out a criminal he had to "act natural" around.)

So it's a pretty important question: does dominate equate to mind control, such that they think what you tell them to think? Or does it just override their mind's control over their physical actions?

We know it goes a little beyond that: if you successfully dominate a psion or wilder, you can compel them to use their (entirely mental) powers. I'm not sure that's strong enough evidence to hang "you can control their thoughts" on, though.

[Fouredged Sword]

I actually think of it as less of mind control or body control, rather a suppression of your target's will and replacing their agency with your own. You cannot read their mind of directly control their actions. You instead impose your will over them and they make choices in accordance to your imposed directive.

[Segev]

I actually think of it as less of mind control or body control, rather a suppression of your target's will and replacing their agency with your own. You cannot read their mind of directly control their actions. You instead impose your will over them and they make choices in accordance to your imposed directive.

Well, then, can they be said to be aware of or objecting to your control? I mean, if their will is supplanted by yours, "Act normally" might not be quite so hard. Sure, now they want to do things you order them to, but when your orders aren't in the way, don't they still have the same personality?

Most of the "it's hard to act like you're not mind-controlled when you are" reasoning centers around the notion that you know you're mind controlled, and are trying not to act like it, despite it being a proverbial pink elephant in your brain-room.

[Psyren]

Sure, now they want to do things you order them to, but when your orders aren't in the way, don't they still have the same personality?

Clearly something is off about them, because even without orders, a mere DC 15 Sense Motive can detect that they are dominated. That check applies at all times, not just when you ask them to do something.

[Segev]

Clearly something is off about them, because even without orders, a mere DC 15 Sense Motive can detect that they are dominated. That check applies at all times, not just when you ask them to do something.

That's fair. But I think "standing there and doing nothing because their master hasn't given orders" might be a bit easier than DC 15.

Also, even if you go with them not realizing anything's wrong, their newly skewed priorities might be enough of a tip-off. "Act like you're not dominated" might be like telling somebody to "act like you're not drunk." They'll try, and they'll make choices they think they would if their will was not subverted, but can they be sure they would be making these choices if they really were free-willed?

[Psyren]

That's fair. But I think "standing there and doing nothing because their master hasn't given orders" might be a bit easier than DC 15.

Also, even if you go with them not realizing anything's wrong, their newly skewed priorities might be enough of a tip-off. "Act like you're not dominated" might be like telling somebody to "act like you're not drunk." They'll try, and they'll make choices they think they would if their will was not subverted, but can they be sure they would be making these choices if they really were free-willed?

I don't have a problem with this; that's as reasonable a rationale for the check as any.