Help Me Make a Somewhat OP Ally-Draining Healing Spell

[Kadzar]

This is a sort of follow-up to a previous thread of mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498112-Help-Me-Make-a-Somewhat-OP-Death-Based-Evocation-Spell). So, again, Not that I think they'll read it, but just in case: if you are in a group with Andy, Joel, Chris, Kevin, Derek, Luis, and Nick (and also me, James), don't read this. I'll also be spoilering the more spoilery bits.

Blood Transfusion (name not final; willing to take suggestions)
1st-level necromancy

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V,S (might put a Material in here if someone can think of something appropriate)
Duration: 1 hour

When the spell is cast, you may deal 1d8 necrotic damage to each of your living, non-conjured allies within 60 feet of you. The target's hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the necrotic damage taken, and you regain hit points equal to that amount. Any healing from this spell in excess of your hit point maximum is converted into temporary hit points for the duration. The reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.

You may repeat this effect as an action or as a reaction whenever you take damage.

If a creature is charmed by you, it gets to make a Wisdom saving throw before taking damage. On a successful save, the creature is no longer charmed, and it takes no damage if it is no longer friendly to you.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
Blood Transfusion (name not final; willing to take suggestions)
3rd-level necromancy

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V,S (might put a Material in here if someone can think of something appropriate)
Duration: 1 minute

When the spell is cast, all the caster's living, non-conjured allies within 60 feet of the caster immediately take 1d6 necrotic damage, and the caster gains regains 1d6 hit points for each creature so damaged. On subsequent turns, the caster's living, non-conjured allies with 60 feet of the caster take 1 point of damage on the caster's turn, and the caster regains 1 hit point for each creature so damaged. The damage this spell deals to allies ignores resistance and immunity.

If a creature is charmed by you, it gets to make a Wisdom saving throw before taking damage. On a successful save, the creature is no longer charmed, and it takes no damage if it is no longer friendly to you.

If an ally is killed by the damage from this spell, it can only be restored to life by means of a wish spell.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the initial healing increases by 1d6 each for each slot level about 3rd.
Like my previous spell, this would be a wizard spell. It can only be learned by one wizard at a time, as the spell will only appear in the wizard's spellbook after they die, and a wizard attempting to record said spell in their own spellbook actually ends up absorbing the spell into their own mind (so it is always prepared and doesn't count against their normal number of spells prepared. The only way to remove the spell from the wizard's mind without killing them is by casting dispel evil and good (and I might require the wizard to be willing for it to work), in which case a demon (which is the thing that inhabits the wizard's mind and allows them to cast the spell) comes out (if I don't stat up a specific kind I'll probably make it a shadow demon). If anyone manages to kill this demon and capture the ichor it dissolves into, the ichor can be used as ink to scribe out this spell. Any ichor left over then immediately evaporates.
This is intended to be used by an enemy tiefling enchanter. Technically,
he was supposed to have the previous spell I made, but, because of his backstory, it made more sense to give it to the party wizard's mentor (albeit in a somewhat modified form, which I may post in the original thread).

The idea is that this is supposed to boost the hit points of a squishy wizard boss, at the cost of harming his (probably mostly charmed) allies. I was thinking of making it give temp hp instead, but I'm not sure if that's worth sacrificing allies for. Also, allies killed by the spell can't be brought back because it takes their souls. I'm slightly worried about how to prevent that aspect from being abused by players without preventing the enchanter from using his charming ability, though. Removed that part, made it reduce hit point maximum instead, basically based off of how monsters like vampires and succubi work.

So, basically, I think it's usable in this form if I absolutely must, but if you have any other ideas about how I can make a spell that harms your allies to heal you, please let me know.

[zeek0]

Great spell! I also love how you integrate it into the story.

First, it doesn't make sense for allies to roll for damage taken, and the caster to roll for health gained. I would simply have the caster gain a flat number associated with the amount lost.

Now, blood magic is all about sacrifice in exchange for greater power. Currently, this spell simply transfers hit points, which one might argue doesn't increase the power of their team.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to double the health gained by the caster. You probably still net gain less than cure wounds in the end.

[Superstition]

It's an interesting spell. For a 3rd level spell though, I think it is a little underpowered. It's hard to compete with fireball, Haste, and Fly. Fly and Haste in particular can let you or an ally completely remove threats from the map instead of a healing or hp buffer.

As a spell for an enemy though, it can be abused by a DM who supports this Wizard with a bunch of tanky minions. I'd say doubling the HP value and giving a temp HP is a good decision, especially if you want to remove one of a wizard's greatest weaknesses, low HP. The spell's value instantly goes up if you have a Infernal-pact warlock on the team or anything that can give constant temp HP. I do wonder if you could reduce the radius but make it a constant aura effect that requires concentration.

[zeek0]

It's an interesting spell. For a 3rd level spell though, I think it is a little underpowered. It's hard to compete with fireball, Haste, and Fly. Fly and Haste in particular can let you or an ally completely remove threats from the map instead of a healing or hp buffer.

As a spell for an enemy though, it can be abused by a DM who supports this Wizard with a bunch of tanky minions. I'd say doubling the HP value and giving a temp HP is a good decision, especially if you want to remove one of a wizard's greatest weaknesses, low HP. The spell's value instantly goes up if you have a Infernal-pact warlock on the team or anything that can give constant temp HP. I do wonder if you could reduce the radius but make it a constant aura effect that requires concentration.

As a thematic part of the spell, I would have the health drain 'cut through' temp. hit points. To me, temporary hit points are like a magical shield, and it wouldn't make sense to drain this with blood magic.

[Kadzar]

@zeek0 Yeah, I agree that it's not really a net gain for health, but the spell isn't designed to be for team-playing so much as empowering an individual and buffing a squishy.

@Superstition I was spit-balling the spell level. I mostly based it off the fact that it has a potential to do a lot more healing than cure wounds if you have enough allies around you.

I also agree that temp hp might be the way to go; I'm just worried that it could turn out to be either really OP or completely useless. I'm especially wary of just straight up doubling anything for the fact that this spell (like the previous one) has no upper limit to it's power, other than the number of allies you can surround yourself with.



I'm also toying with the idea of the spell creating some sort of barrier around the caster instead, which drains life from allies to replenish itself. Another idea is making the health drain a reaction, either as a one-off cast or usable every round after being cast. What do you think?

[zeek0]

@zeek0 Yeah, I agree that it's not really a net gain for health, but the spell isn't designed to be for team-playing so much as empowering an individual and buffing a squishy.

___

I'm also toying with the idea of the spell creating some sort of barrier around the caster instead, which drains life from allies to replenish itself. Another idea is making the health drain a reaction, either as a one-off cast or usable every round after being cast. What do you think?

Perhaps there's a misunderstanding. If the caster drains 5 people, this spell is equal to cure wounds cast at 3rd level - but it also drains your allies. Even if you only use this spell with enemy, the power of a 3rd level spell is the same for creatures and for players. If your enemy uses a gimped 3rd level spell then that's a fine decision, but only if you raise the difficulty of the encounter in recompense (in number/power of creatures).

As for temp hp, I think that's probably the better choice. It prevents the caster from draining again while the 'shield' is active, since that would just replace the shield instead of increase it.

As for doubling concerns, you could reduce the number of possible 'donors' by reducing the radius of the drain. At a 15 ft. radius, the maximum number of donors is much more limited, and at 10 ft. the number you could possibly have is 24. Admittedly, using hp might be best, since there's an upper limit on the amount of health points that can be granted.

This is a tricky one all around, and I'm happy for the conversation. I'll be sure to add it to the homebrew pile when it's edited through.

[Kadzar]

Alright, I added a new version to the OP. I'm not sure that it addresses all the concerns I and others in this thread have had, but I believe it's at least an improvement over the original.

[zeek0]

Alright, I added a new version to the OP. I'm not sure that it addresses all the concerns I and others in this thread have had, but I believe it's at least an improvement over the original.

Oooooo, this is interesting.

Draining max hp means that it could have almost no downside, and is certainly much better to cast when your allies have less health. The problem can come when your allies want to expend hit dice during a short rest, and there's your downside. I don't have a great handle on this kind of thing, but it doesn't immediately strike strike as bad.

From a player's perspective it should heal ~3d8, or a bit less than cure wounds at 3rd level. But since it kinda just shuffled around hit points, I think it's alright.

I like how this version is more streamlined.

I have a few comments/ideas.

First, it may make sense to drain 2d4 instead of 1d8. You'll drain .5 more average hp from each target, but you'll get more reliable drain. This seems most important for allies, who shouldn't die from this. Rolling an 8 at level one could seriously cripple you.

Second, I think the drain radius is rather large, and under some circumstances could grant you enormous amounts of hp - say if you team up with a friendly battalion of soldiers. Perhaps this could be fixed by having an upper limit, or a limit that scales with level?

Third, how would you feel about this spell only working on willing creatures?

*Really* good work. It's just about my favorite spell now.

[Superstition]

Agreed. Draining maximum HP is definitely a better decision. I would however amend this and directly drain CON from allies and gaining 1d6 HP for every 1 or 2 CON drained (or something like that).

Doing so automatically negates any potential abuse with temp HP and undead (without you having to write pages of errata addressing them), and gives players an alternative way to offset potentially disastrous HP loss in the party (albeit at the loss of a high level Cleric spell slot for greater restoration) for a surge of powerful healing in one of the weakest and most vulnerable classes at early level. Be sure you specify a period of time (such as an extended rest) or some other way for the ability damage to be regained or it is considered permanent short of a cleric spending a 5th level greater restoration spell.

Otherwise, limiting it to a set number of targets seems like a good idea. There are very few spells with a 120ft radius, even if they do target your own allies.

[Arkhios]

For material component: what about a mosquito (Imho doesn't matter if it's either alive or dead) and a drop of resin.

Reasoning: aside from being annoying pest, a mosquito sucks blood only to feed on it, thus transferring life(blood) to "heal" itself and its descendants. Resin on the other hand is widely known for its curative properties.

Or maybe a petrified mosquito inside amber (maybe worth at least 100gp, which the spell does (or doesn't?) consume)

Reasoning: as above, mosquitoes are bloodsucking pests, but they do so only to lengthen their own lifespans. Amber is originally resin, that has just been petrified, so the previous reasoning does still apply, essentially.

[zeek0]

And the name could be 'Soul Siphon', if you want to go for a soul-magic theme.

[Kadzar]

First, it may make sense to drain 2d4 instead of 1d8. You'll drain .5 more average hp from each target, but you'll get more reliable drain. This seems most important for allies, who shouldn't die from this. Rolling an 8 at level one could seriously cripple you.My players are level 6 at this point, but this might be handy to avoid one-shotting the commoners the enchanter is charming into walking blood bags.


Second, I think the drain radius is rather large, and under some circumstances could grant you enormous amounts of hp - say if you team up with a friendly battalion of soldiers. Perhaps this could be fixed by having an upper limit, or a limit that scales with level? For use as a normal spell, that's probably a good idea, but this, like the previous spell, was intended to be overpowered for anyone willing to potentially sacrifice their allies. As it is, I think it's unlikely in most circumstances that a battalion of friendly soldiers would agree to let some wizard potentially kill some of them to power him up.


Third, how would you feel about this spell only working on willing creatures? Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Some of the wording was taken from the previous spell, but requiring them to be willing would work, so long as being charmed would still count for that.


*Really* good work. It's just about my favorite spell now. Thanks!


Agreed. Draining maximum HP is definitely a better decision. I would however amend this and directly drain CON from allies and gaining 1d6 HP for every 1 or 2 CON drained (or something like that).

Doing so automatically negates any potential abuse with temp HP and undead (without you having to write pages of errata addressing them), and gives players an alternative way to offset potentially disastrous HP loss in the party (albeit at the loss of a high level Cleric spell slot for greater restoration) for a surge of powerful healing in one of the weakest and most vulnerable classes at early level. Be sure you specify a period of time (such as an extended rest) or some other way for the ability damage to be regained or it is considered permanent short of a cleric spending a 5th level greater restoration spell. Eh, seems a bit more complicated in use just using HP.

Also, I set the reduction to last until a long rest, though it may not be so obvious by how I arranged the wording.


Thanks for your help, everyone. Your suggestions have helped me make a spell I'm now reasonably confident about using in game.