Need help from better DMs than I

[DGIF2015]

My level 15 gestalt game is about to start and three of my players have shown me their "mostly finished" characters......but my opt-fu is not so awesome. (I got CRUSHED on the FB group) So just want to have some of you look these guys over and tell me what you think.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1180358

This one is a Troll 11, Monk 2, using Tashalatora to make the Psychic warrior (9lvl) levels advance some monk class features.
With Warshaper 2 (He didn't list this stuff)

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1174585 (Artificer/Unseen Seer)

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1174282 (listed on sheet)

[Gildedragon]

Ummm. You might want to have them list their items and or buffs. Cause +12 to Cha at lvl 14 is... Not little

ETA: Crystal of mighty wallops, these are nowhere near done. Class: "stuff" no skill ranks...
Where are the wizard levels? Their buffs etc?

[DGIF2015]

working to get the updated sheets..........

[OldTrees1]

Are you asking us if they are legal or are you asking us if they are reasonable for the challenge you will be running for them?

If we had an example of your standard encounter optimization-fu, we could compare and contrast their PCs to the optimization level of your encounters.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

War Hulk 1 gets No Time To Think, which automatically sets all his Int- Wis- and Cha-based skills (except Intimidate) to 0 ranks forever. Fist of the Forest requires Handle Animal and Survival ranks, so he no longer qualifies for it and loses all of his benefits upon taking War Hulk. Tashalatora requires Autohypnosis 5 ranks, so he no longer qualifies for it and loses its benefits upon taking War Hulk (he's actually taking it at level 12, at the same level he's already lost all of his Autohypnosis ranks).

Fist of the Forest unarmed damage: "If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table."
He already has Monk 20 unarmed damage from Tashalatora and Monk's Belt and Monk's Tattoo, there is no higher damage on the monk class table, not even in epic levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/classProgressions.htm#epicMonk). He's large size, so his unarmed damage is 4d8 base, not 8d8.

[ZamielVanWeber]

War Hulk 1 gets No Time To Think, which automatically sets all his Int- Wis- and Cha-based skills (except Intimidate) to 0 ranks forever. Fist of the Forest requires Handle Animal and Survival ranks, so he no longer qualifies for it and loses all of his benefits upon taking War Hulk.
This part depends on a bit of rules fuzziness and may or may not be true. You will need to rule on it. I am not going to rehash the arguments here but (some?) PrCs (may?) shut off if their prerequisites are no longer met. It involves a discussion in rules primacy between sources and the what governs what rule by time. In short: this is true is you say it is and is not if you sat it is not; the rules will back you up for either decision but you should make it now and tell all the players.


Tashalatora requires Autohypnosis 5 ranks, so he no longer qualifies for it and loses its benefits upon taking War Hulk (he's actually taking it at level 12, at the same level he's already lost all of his Autohypnosis ranks).
This part is flat out correct since it involves feats and not PrCs.

This wizard sheet is a mess, but I can tell you for certain the he took Persist Spell illegally (it as Extend Spell as a prerequisite) and has 2 feats from flaws and no flaws list. I also can tell you he took at least two levels of human paragon and no more than 4 levels of wizard. Beyond that is a mystery.

The cleric/dread necro took Southern Magician illegally at one and I have no clue how she is getting some of her numbers so high.

Before you start at all you need them to complete their sheets and explain how they are getting these numbers. The wizard/artificer is 100 HP over average in his "current HP" as is the dread necro and I am not sure where the dread necro is getting the +12 to saves and AC.

I note that both casters used necropolitan and took a hit for it. For the sake of fairness I would like to point out that by this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393878-Riding-the-Experience-River-to-Free-LA-(With-LA-Buyoff-Math)&p=18685833#post18685833) calculation they would have caught up in exp by now.

[Lorddenorstrus]

As the person who originally made the sheets.. I would like to say the online sheets were only a reference point for me during creation. The physical paper sheets have all notes included and the onlines were never meant to be the actual used sheets. So yeah I didn't put everything onto the online ones because I saw it as a waste of time. I didn't expect them to end out like this.

Temp / Current HP was using the Int to HD/lvl from the Initiate feat that was taken. The actual number is HP with out using that. In the notes at the bottom I listed racial improvements that got made to Necropolitan by having a Dreadnecro with Corpsecrafter feats be the one to change us into undead. This was done with DM approval I asked for a gold cost as I was willing to pay for it but was told "it'd be a favor." That helps some of the boosted numbers, we also have an Artificer doing crafting he retyped the bonuses on some items which helps majorly boost stats. (Item Alteration Infusion)

Most of your questions though are item related which I hadn't even put on the online sheets at all because I disliked how the website handled magical items. Compared to the customized paper sheets I made myself with more magic item slots to add descriptions and such. I did expect there to be a few mistakes though, I've only had a few hours every other day the past week to work on 3 different characters.. I've been working extra at my job. So thanks I noticed a misordering of feats taken and did rearrange those.

To the Warhulk Troll that was ruled in favor of originally. As self disqualifying PrCs exist and it's just over reading the RAW and not using common sense to fix it. Fist of the Forest is a tier increase in damage. So yeah it would be exactly as it is. As a 20th lvl Monk effectively and large that's 4d8 + 2 tier shifts. ie 8d8.

[Dagroth]

To the Warhulk Troll that was ruled in favor of originally. As self disqualifying PrCs exist and it's just over reading the RAW and not using common sense to fix it. Fist of the Forest is a tier increase in damage. So yeah it would be exactly as it is. As a 20th lvl Monk effectively and large that's 4d8 + 2 tier shifts. ie 8d8.

The problem is, the class abilities of Fist of the Forest apply before the magic items do. So Fist of the Forest raises the damage levels, as per the Monk unarmed damage progression, then the magic items add effective levels and cap out at level 20.

[Godskook]

Fist of the Forest is a tier increase in damage.

You are misquoting the rules. Fist of the Forest is not a "tier increase in damage", whatever that may or may not mean. Fist of the Forest is "increased base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table". There is *NO* meaning for this in the situation Biffoniacus_Furiou describes the Troll being in. In that situation, there are exactly two possibilities:

RAW: You're wrong, and FoF does nothing.

Rule 0: DM houserule

There is no clear RAI in this case.


The problem is, the class abilities of Fist of the Forest apply before the magic items do. So Fist of the Forest raises the damage levels, as per the Monk unarmed damage progression, then the magic items add effective levels and cap out at level 20.

Uhm, right conclusion, but order of application is irrelevant because there's no order of application that produces the result desired without a DM houserule.

On top of that, standard community position has generally been that order of application is always in the player's favor, and while I don't have time to see if that's RAW or not, you're claiming RAW and I'm not, so I'll ask you, do you have a citation for your claim?