Gish-friendly Sorcerer ACFs

[danielxcutter]

As title. No Dragon Magazine, please.

[King539]

Stalwart Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer.

...

EDIT: Spell Shield, Dwarf Sorcerer (Bleh), and certain choices with domain access.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only one really worth taking is Divine Companion (CC). And Domain Access (CC) for Divine Power if you can persist it.


Stalwart Sorcerer, Battle Sorcerer.

...

EDIT: Spell Shield, Dwarf Sorcerer (Bleh), and certain choices with domain access.

Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer aren't really worth it. You're PrCing out anyway so you don't really get the benefits for long, but the lost spells stay.
Spell Shield is inferior to Divine Companion and both trade away your familiar, so you have to choose one.

[Psyren]

PF has Eldritch Scrapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/eldritch-scrapper/), and some gish-friendly bloodlines like Draconic and Ghoul. You can also use Psychic Bloodline and wear heavy armor with a dip or two.

[danielxcutter]

PF has Eldritch Scrapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/eldritch-scrapper/), and some gish-friendly bloodlines like Draconic and Ghoul. You can also use Psychic Bloodline and wear heavy armor with a dip or two.

I see, but I'm not talking about PF.

[Psyren]

I see, but I'm not talking about PF.

You hadn't tagged the thread that way (or mentioned it in the OP) so I figured it would be okay to chime in.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer aren't really worth it. You're PrCing out anyway so you don't really get the benefits for long, but the lost spells stay.
If they stack in the way they're supposed to, it's actually a pretty good setup for an arcane gish-in-a-can. Light armor, weapon proficiency, and tons of HP. Toss Smiting Spell in there and you're golden.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If they stack in the way they're supposed to, it's actually a pretty good setup for an arcane gish-in-a-can. Light armor, weapon proficiency, and tons of HP. Toss Smiting Spell in there and you're golden.

A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer learns his second 1st level spell at 5 and his second 2nd level spell at 7. He'll spend the vast majority of his career knowing only 1 or 2 spells per spell level.
Even at level 20 you'll only know 2 spells each of 6th, 7th and 8th level and only a single 9th level spell.
Sorcerers are already pretty limited with their spells known out of the box. They can't really afford to lose any more.

You get more effective spellcasting out of multiclassing with Fighter and taking Practiced Spellcaster, and that's probably the lamest gish build you can make.
Hell, you could at least multiclass with Paladin to get the bonus on saves. And still get armor and weapon proficiency and more spellcasting than a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer.

[Psyren]

Well sure those ACFs are suboptimal, but Knowstones and Runestaves do exist. And a suboptimal sorcerer is still a sorcerer; not all character concepts need to play their component classes to the hilt.

[Troacctid]

Stalwart Sorcerer is actually pretty overpowered on certain races. Start as a kobold with racial weapon familiarity with the greatpick. Stalwart Sorcerer gives you Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with it as bonus feats. Now become a Dragonborn. You lose the weapon familiarity and the feats become illegal. As per the Dragonborn rules, you then replace them with any two feats of your choice for which you meet the prerequisites.

Giving up one spell known in exchange for two bonus feats seems like a super sweet deal to me. And you even get like 10 bonus HP on top of it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A Stalwart Battle Sorcerer learns his second 1st level spell at 5 and his second 2nd level spell at 7. He'll spend the vast majority of his career knowing only 1 or 2 spells per spell level.
Even at level 20 you'll only know 2 spells each of 6th, 7th and 8th level and only a single 9th level spell.
Sorcerers are already pretty limited with their spells known out of the box. They can't really afford to lose any more.

You get more effective spellcasting out of multiclassing with Fighter and taking Practiced Spellcaster, and that's probably the lamest gish build you can make.
Hell, you could at least multiclass with Paladin to get the bonus on saves. And still get armor and weapon proficiency and more spellcasting than a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer.
As Psyren noted, list expansion is easy; getting a full sorcerer casting progression with medium BAB, light armor, and an effective d12 HD is less so. It's not optimal, but it would certainly be playable-- sort of like a Wilder with more room for growth.

And yeah, Battle Sorcerer isn't hardly worth it if you're going to PrC it up. Stalwart probably is, though. At least if you have to play through the early levels.

[Zombulian]

As title. No Dragon Magazine, please.

Not a Sorc ACF but maybe something that could fit into such a build... I swear there was a Fighter ACF out there that got some cantrips... possibly had a CL it could add to another class?

Actually even if it's real I think it was Dragon material.

[danielxcutter]

Not a Sorc ACF but maybe something that could fit into such a build... I swear there was a Fighter ACF out there that got some cantrips... possibly had a CL it could add to another class?

Actually even if it's real I think it was Dragon material.

You mean the one that allows you to cast in light armor, but only spells up to Fighter level +1?

[Zombulian]

You mean the one that allows you to cast in light armor, but only spells up to Fighter level +1?

Probably what I'm thinking of. That sounds terrible though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Probably what I'm thinking of. That sounds terrible though.
Armored Mage, in Complete Mage. It's moderately useful for warrior-types who just dipped a caster type, at least; kind of rubbish for a full caster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Assuming you're using a proper gish build and not taking more than four Sorcerer levels, the only worthwhile ACF is Metamagic Specialist in PH2.

[danielxcutter]

Assuming you're using a proper gish build and not taking more than four Sorcerer levels, the only worthwhile ACF is Metamagic Specialist in PH2.

Can someone explain why it's so good for a gish? I mean, it's obviously very good for a normal caster, but gishes use most of their spell slots for buffs and (in the case of Sorcerers) Arcane Strike, right? Do people usually Extend their round/level spells like Wraithstrike?

[Soranar]

stalwart sorcerer is one of the few ways to increase your hitpoints as a necropolitan so that's something I guess

if you have your transformation done next to a desecrate with an altar you should end up with quite the HP beast

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can someone explain why it's so good for a gish? I mean, it's obviously very good for a normal caster, but gishes use most of their spell slots for buffs and (in the case of Sorcerers) Arcane Strike, right? Do people usually Extend their round/level spells like Wraithstrike?

Wraithstrike has a swift action casting time, and spontaneous spells with metamagic only take longer to cast if the normal casting time is a standard action or more. You can (Lesser Rod of) Extend your Wraithstrikes and the casting time is still a swift action.

Metamagic Specialist is only good because a Sorcerer 4's familiar is worthless, and there's nothing else to exchange it for that could be as useful. Whether you're using Fell Frighten Magic Missile (and a second one with a Circlet of Rapid Casting) to debuff multiple opponents, or an Invisible Black Tentacles, or even if you want to make use of Quicken Spell, you're going to get some use out of it.

Every Gish should have at least a few strong area effect crowd controls. Whether it's Web and Glitterdust, or Black Tentacles, or Freezing Fog, just spending one round to severely hinder your opponents for the rest of the encounter is well worth it. If you can (Rod of) Quicken that and still get to charge or full attack, or cast a second one and move close enough to full attack the next round, it's worth trading your familiar for Metamagic Specialist.


stalwart sorcerer is one of the few ways to increase your hitpoints as a necropolitan so that's something I guess

if you have your transformation done next to a desecrate with an altar you should end up with quite the HP beast

I don't think anyone has mentioned anything about making a necropolitan. Even then, a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar is +6 hp/level, Dread Necromancer 8+, Wizard 1+ with Enhanced Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants), and Corpsecrafter are each another +2 hp/level, so that's a total of +12 hp/level for absolutely zero investment on your character's part.