New and Confused about Incantatrix

[Azuse]

Hi!

I've played D&D 4e in the past as a generalist wizard, as a short, deformed elf frequently mistaken for an aggressive dwarf "affectionately" nicknamed Stumpy, but I'm not that familiar with it. I've now been invited to a 3.5 game with some friend who've been playing it since the beginning and, despite reading book for weeks, still feel somewhat out of my depth and in need of some wisdom.

DM is pretty casual. Anything valid in 3.5 goes so long as it doesn't break the rules or seriously break the world. I've settled on a strongheart halfling wizard but somewhat torn as to planning a complete build. I'm particularly fond of the conjurer in Treantmonklvl20 guid to being a wizard god (with the odd tweak) as the spell list particularly suits my play style. However the DM in question is fond of messing with spell books so I'm looking at both Collegiate Wizard & Eidetic Spellcaster to start with (no familiars :P). I think realistically I'll fall somewhere between that and the Batman guide.

What's letting me down is sufficient knowledge of PrC and therefore an inability to effectively plan my feats. The alternative I'm interested in is the Domain Wizard but can't really see where to take it (or know how much I'm giving up to do so). Incantatrix seems to be the most popular path for a Domain Wizard but I feel a though I'm missing something as i don't see whats so fantastic about it (or what take for level 16-20 afterwards).

If anyone could shed a little light on the exact brilliance of the Incantatrix, and possible PrC post-Incantatrix I'd be incredibly grateful.

[EdRed]

I will leave the Incantatrix to other posters, but be assured that it's a very strong class. There are however different versions of it.

Domain Wizard is an exchange for not picking a school of magic to specialise in. If it is allowed and you are a generalist anyway, there is no downside to picking it up.

Edit: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

[ZamielVanWeber]

There is only one version of incantatrix. The Magic of Faerun version is superseded by the version in Player's Guide to Faerun. That being said: it works magic with metamagic. It gives you bonus metamagic feats but feel free to take a few more choice ones as long as you can make some pretty astronomical spellcraft checks (but, if you really want to make those reliably, there are ways).

[ATHATH]

Are you looking at the Incantatrix from Magic of Faerun? It's replaced by the Incantatrix in Player's Guide to Faerun (because PGtF came out after MoF), which is the broken one.

[Venger]

in short, the reason it's a powerful class is it gives you a variety of metamagic effects for a greatly discounted cost.

[Douglas]

The short summary version:
What makes wizards so powerful? Answer: Spells
How can you make spells even more powerful? Answer: Metamagic
What does Incantatrix specialize in? Answer: Metamagic.

Probably the most well known use of Incantatrix tricks is using Cooperative Metamagic and/or Metamagic Effect (gained just 2 and 3 levels into the class) to apply Persistent Spell to various short duration buff spells to have them active all day. This requires a very high spellcraft bonus, but there are lots of ways to achieve that.

A less well known trick is using Metamagic Effect with the Sculpt Spell metamagic to move enemy area spells around. Somebody trying to lock you out with Forbiddance? It covers just four 10-foot cubes now, over there where I don't care about it. Dimensional Lock preventing me from teleporting away? It's over there now. Black Tentacles grappling the party? I'll just rearrange that in 10' cubes to cover the enemy caster and his buddies instead.

Then there's the bonus feats - Wizard gets one every 5 levels, but Incantatrix gets one every 3, and with the first one at level 1.

Instant Metamagic was severely nerfed by errata, limiting it to merely saving you a higher level spell slot rather than letting you cast effects way above your level (Persistent Shapechange, anyone?), but it's still a useful extra that Wizards don't get.

Stealing other casters' spells with Seize concentration and Snatch spell can be a major but depends on circumstances.

And the capstone, Improved Metamagic, gets you an epic feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic) at level 15, and this is one of the better epic feats, too. Reduced cost metamagic, on all the metamagic, all the time.

And while gaining all this extra stuff, you still get everything that Wizard does. The only thing you give up in exchange is one school of magic.

Also, the prerequisites are trivial to satisfy, consisting of a) things you'd probably get anyway no matter what class you were aiming for, and b) Iron Will, which if you're short on feats can be gained from the Otyugh Hole special location from Complete Scoundrel.

[Azuse]

Many thanks! I believe I'm beginning to get the idea, although there's no home-brew (I assume that's what lvl 15 is there) in this game, I really like some of the metamagic rods already

I hadn't payed much attention to those spell check numbers nor have I stumbled across it in anything I've read. How on earth do you get them high enough if you don't mind me asking?



Domain Wizard is an exchange for not picking a school of magic to specialise in. If it is allowed and you are a generalist anyway, there is no downside to picking it up.


This is perhaps the one thing I think I disagree with. Loosing access to some very powerful PrC seems to be a fairly significant trade-off in the long term (though none in the short term).

Let me ask this hypothetical then.

1. If you took 4/5 levels in Domain Wizard then 10 levels in Incantatrix, what would people take in the last 5/6 levels (I'm struggling here due to the specialisation prerequisites)?

2. Assuming you were going to play as a Domain Wizard and not going to take Incantatrix, what PrC/s would people take instead?


P.S. I don't mean to sound like I'm fishing. I'm just trying to get a good handle on a very complex game in a very short amount of time :)

[Gusmo]

As a sample wizard, here's some food for thought.

Wizard5/incantatrix10/wyrm wizard2/archmage3

You'll be using the second level of wyrm wizard (Dragon Magic) to gain the wu jen spell body outside body (Complete Arcane). You will then use archmage to take body outside body as a spell like ability. The feat arcane disciple (Complete Divine) allows you to add cleric domain spells to your spellbook. Grab access to the luck domain, which allows you to put miracle into your spellbook. You can grab any other spell for a third archmage spell like ability, there are plenty of good options, like shapechange or polymorph any object. If you're feeling dorky, you can also grab the innate spell feat (Complete Arcane) and use it on magic missile, so that you can use magic missile at will. Here's the end result:

Cast body outside body, persist it using your incantatrix abilities. You now have several doubles that don't have your spellcasting ability, but do have the ability to use cooperative metamagic and your spell like abilities. That means they can persist any more buffs you wish to cast on yourself for you. And those archmage SLAs, or any other SLAs you gave yourself such as my unlimited magic missile example? Your clones now have them. And because one of those SLAs is body outside body, your clones can make more clones. Who can make more clones, and so on. All of whom can cast miracle, and perform whatever other abuses you want to furnish them with, because they only lose your spellcasting ability. If you've given them magic missile, at minimum they're little cannons that follow you around. If you're outfitting them with shapechange and/or miracle, for instance, their power level is...considerable.

I personally favor banning enchantment with incantatrix, as it's the smallest school in the game, and a lot of the best spells can be mimicked with the necrotic cyst feat.

Edit: if you want more overpowered caster stuff, the dweomerkeeper prestige class in the Complete Divine web enhancement is stupidly easy to break, because by turning spells into supernatural abilities, you remove their EXP and material component costs. Hello, wish.

The uncanny forethought feat in Examplars of Evil is an overpowered way to basically have any spell in your spellbook ready to go. It lets you get around long casting times on spells, too.

The mindsight feat in Lords of Madness (found in the chapter on the Tsochar, and not in the normal feats section of the book) allows anyone with telepathy to basically have an impervious form of sight that can instantly pinpoint the location of anything with an intelligence score within the range of their telepathy. IN otherwords, it's a way better version of blindsight. Methods of getting telepathy include dipping 1 level in the mindbender prestige class (Compete Arcane), incarnum feats, and the hellbred race from Fiendish Codex 2.

There's a spell in the Spell Compendium called energy transormation field that's a gateway to all sorts of insanity, the highlight which I'll mention now is infinite spells. Key one energy transformation field to the spell absorption (also found in Spell Compendium), and another energy transformation field to anything that targets you. Walk into the absorption ETF and trigger it with any infinite use ability or magic item, which will result in absorption being cast on you. Walk over to the other ETF, and trigger it to cast stuff on you, which will give you spell point to use with absorption. Repeat as many times as desired for an arbitrarily high number of spell points which you can use on any spell you know. Note that for wizards, spells known, per the PHB glossary and the wizard spellcasting entry in their class writeup, are considered to know any spell in their spellbook. Thus this gives you an arbitrarily high number of castings of all the spells in your spellbook.

[Gildedragon]

Many thanks! I believe I'm beginning to get the idea, although there's no home-brew (I assume that's what lvl 15 is there) in this game, I really like some of the metamagic rods already

I hadn't payed much attention to those spell check numbers nor have I stumbled across it in anything I've read. How on earth do you get them high enough if you don't mind me asking?



This is perhaps the one thing I think I disagree with. Loosing access to some very powerful PrC seems to be a fairly significant trade-off in the long term (though none in the short term).

Let me ask this hypothetical then.

1. If you took 4/5 levels in Domain Wizard then 10 levels in Incantatrix, what would people take in the last 5/6 levels (I'm struggling here due to the specialisation prerequisites)?

Archmage


2. Assuming you were going to play as a Domain Wizard and not going to take Incantatrix, what PrC/s would people take instead?

It'd depend what I was gunning for, character and role wise.
Probably mage of the arcane order

[Anthrowhale]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5 is considered pretty canonical. HE adds free access to Heighten/Maximize/Empower, a further -1 to metamagic cost for two metamagics and an increase to caster level 40. It's good enough that you probably want Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Halruaan Elder 5/Incantatrix 7.

The "bonus epic feat" discussed isn't actually a feat---it's just the Incantatrix 10 ability which has the same name and effect as an epic feat.

The use of BoB and Miracle to become a persist machine is discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum). The use of Incantatrix to utterly break the action economy is discussed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496834-The-Clockwork-Wizard-Everything-in-no-time). You almost certainly want something less powerful to be playable.

[Douglas]

Many thanks! I believe I'm beginning to get the idea, although there's no home-brew (I assume that's what lvl 15 is there) in this game, I really like some of the metamagic rods already
I meant character level 15, the class level is 10. It's actually a class feature, it just happens to have the same name and identical effect as an epic feat - Improved Metamagic.


I hadn't payed much attention to those spell check numbers nor have I stumbled across it in anything I've read. How on earth do you get them high enough if you don't mind me asking?
Let's consider level 10 for an example.
To start with, skill ranks give +13.
For intelligence, it's fairly easy between starting score, potential racial bonus, levelup increases, and a Headband of Intellect to get 24 intelligence. That's another +7.
Add +2 for synergy from Knowledge (Arcana).
And consider that you can take 10 on the check.

That's a result of 10 base + 13 + 7 + 2 = 32, and this is with no special effort. That's enough for modified spell level 4, and almost enough for 5.

Going further, Spellscale race from Races of the Dragon can get a racial bonus of half character level (see racial traits page 23 and Blood-Quickening Meditations page 25, specifically the Io one). That's +5.
Casting Heroism on yourself gives +2.
There's probably a few other wizard buff spells I don't care to look up right now.
If you can get a friendly cleric to help, Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) is +20 at the cost of one level 2 cleric slot per check.
If your DM allows it, the Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) feat (printed in Unearthed Arcana) can give you extra up to your skill ranks, so +13. Note this feat is commonly considered broken, and is in a book primarily dedicated to optional rules, so don't be surprised if a DM bans it.
A magic item giving a competence bonus to spellcraft would cost bonus x bonus x 100 gp as per the table Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) (printed in the Dungeon Master's Guide). +10 would cost 10000 gp, well within a level 10 character's expected wealth. This is also pretty common for a DM to disallow, but is usually more accepted than Item Familiar.
Technically the equipment chapter of the PHB suggests that there may be masterwork tools for any skill, which would give +2. Might have to debate with your DM on this one on whether any tool makes sense for that.

I'm sure there are many more that I don't specifically recall right now.


This is perhaps the one thing I think I disagree with. Loosing access to some very powerful PrC seems to be a fairly significant trade-off in the long term (though none in the short term).

Let me ask this hypothetical then.

1. If you took 4/5 levels in Domain Wizard then 10 levels in Incantatrix, what would people take in the last 5/6 levels (I'm struggling here due to the specialisation prerequisites)?

2. Assuming you were going to play as a Domain Wizard and not going to take Incantatrix, what PrC/s would people take instead?
I'm a little confused here, what PrCs are you looking at? The only one I can think of offhand that actually requires specialization is the Master Specialist from Complete Mage, and that one's not typically noted as unusually powerful.

As for other PrCs, Archmage is a pretty good choice, even if you don't do the specific shenanigans already mentioned with it. I'd also consider Abjurant Champion, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Possibly Mage of the Arcane Order, Fatespinner (only the first 4 levels), Halruan Elder. There's a bunch of others if I really cared to look.

Main point is, don't lose a level of casting progression unless you're getting something really powerful in exchange.

[Pale Sun]

I always thought Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5 was the standard build.

You can do Wizard 3/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 but thats extremely cheesy.

[Douglas]

I always thought Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5 was the standard build.
War Weaver is potentially worth the lost caster level, yes.


You can do Wizard 3/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 but thats extremely cheesy.
Satisfying the skill rank prerequisites for Incantatrix at level 3 would require some rather extreme shenanigans that in most games are practically asking the DM to throw a book at you. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5 is a solid high power build with rather less cheese. And in practice the level 20 cutoff point is pretty arbitrary; unless a game specifically aims to end at exactly level 20, it will probably either end earlier (in which case you may not even get to start Iot7V) or go into epic levels (in which case you can finish the class anyway).

[ATHATH]

War Weaver is potentially worth the lost caster level, yes.


Satisfying the skill rank prerequisites for Incantatrix at level 3 would require some rather extreme shenanigans that in most games are practically asking the DM to throw a book at you. Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 5 is a solid high power build with rather less cheese. And in practice the level 20 cutoff point is pretty arbitrary; unless a game specifically aims to end at exactly level 20, it will probably either end earlier (in which case you may not even get to start Iot7V) or go into epic levels (in which case you can finish the class anyway).
Certain interpretations of Bloodline cheese might let you get in after your 3rd, possibly even 2nd, level of Wizard.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

Certain interpretations of Bloodline cheese might let you get in after your 3rd, possibly even 2nd, level of Wizard.

Requirements
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will
Feats: Any one metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: The candidate cannot have abjuration as a prohibited school.

[Gusmo]

Go forth, and embrace the dusk giant cheese!

[ATHATH]

Requirements
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will
Feats: Any one metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: The candidate cannot have abjuration as a prohibited school.
Look up Bloodline cheese, then come back here.

[Pale Sun]

Requirements
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will
Feats: Any one metamagic feat.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Special: The candidate cannot have abjuration as a prohibited school.

Here is how the dusk giant cheese works



Step 1: Turn into something with an Extraordinary ability to eat creatures and gain extra hit dice. I think Polymorphing into a Dusk Giant is the standard.
Step 2: Eat chickens. Gain HD. Yum.
Step 3: Psychic Reformation to transfer the skill points you gained from your actual levels (and not the temporary HD) into the skills you want. Since you have more HD, the maximum number of skill points in each skill is increased.
Step 4: End the Polymorph and Feed effects, returning to normal. Your skill points stay in the skills above your normal cap.
Step 5: ???
Step 6: Profit! (I mean, early PrC entry)

[ATHATH]

Here is how the dusk giant cheese works
I'm talking about Bloodline cheese, not Dusk Giant cheese. You might already have known that, but in case you didn't, I made this post.

[Pale Sun]

I'm talking about Bloodline cheese, not Dusk Giant cheese. You might already have known that, but in case you didn't, I made this post.

Yeah I was replying to the other guy, which I just noticed was explicitly replying to your post. Oh well someone else might've been interested in the dusk giant cheese.

[Douglas]

I don't dispute that such cheese exists, I was just saying that it is exceptionally cheesy to the point where I'd expect far more DMs to forbid it than allow it.

[ATHATH]

I don't dispute that such cheese exists, I was just saying that it is exceptionally cheesy to the point where I'd expect far more DMs to forbid it than allow it.
Oh, most definitely. I wasn't arguing that that wasn't the case.

[Eldariel]

Getting back on topic from the more theoretical end of the cheese pool, Incantatrix does two things incredibly well:

- Apply free metamagic to spells cast by yourself and your allies with skill checks. Items boosting skill checks go up to +30 competence (limit in DMG rules, though the highest printed items are +5 or +10), Divine Insight can grant +15 insight, Guidance of the Avatar can grant +20 competence. Bard has Improvisation too and Artificer can help in any number of ways, changing item bonus types. +30 items are custom items so they might not fly but the spells are easily enough accessed. Use Magic Device + Wand, allies capable of casting said spell/giving you the ability to cast said spell (including Leadership Cohorts or such), some classes (Unseen Seer, Wyrm Wizard, etc.) granting access to them, some spells (most obviously Limited Wish), or some more cheesy options.
- Persistent Spell is the most obvious option. If you can make the skill check, you can flatly just persist 6+2xInt spells each day, which is a lot. Even if you lack another caster to use Cooperative Spell with, you can Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [Spell Compendium] to make the Familiar the second caster and use Cooperative Metamagic with it.
- Make metamagic cheaper. This makes the checks for the other abilities easier but more importantly, it's great for stacking a lot of metamagic effects on a single spell. This is generally used to create veritable nukes out of offensive spells; Metamagic is generally quite expensive and not worth the effort the oldfashioned way but this changes if you can reduce the metamagic costs. Generally you'll take Arcane Thesis [PHBII] in your chosen spell, combine with Incantatrix capstone (Arcane Thesis can reduce metamagic costs to 0; more cheesy use is applying it to 0-cost metamagic like Invisible Spell [Cityscape], Sanctum Spell [Complete Arcane], etc.) and apply a ton of metamagic like Twin Spell, Energy Admixture, Empower Spell, Split Ray, Quicken Spell, etc. to a single spell making it a nuke. You can further use Easy Metamagic [Dragon Magazine] and Practical Metamagic [Races of the Dragon] to reduce the metamagic costs of the more expensive feats. Generally you'll pick a spell that's really hard to block like Orb of Fire [Spell Compendium] (Searing Spell allows Fire spells to damage even Fire-immune creatures), Maw of Chaos [Spell Compendium] or Hail of Stone [Spell Compendium] and metamagic it up to a point that it can oneshot almost anything and then you just nuke things.
- In addition to nuking, metamagic has random utility. Empower Spell can increase the number of summoned creatures your Summons can provide, Twin Spell can give you two actions from Celerity [Player's Handbook II], Repeating Spell is similar to Twin Spell but at lesser cost and delayed effect, Echoing Spell [Secrets of Xen'drik] can allow you to not use up your cast spells as long as you focus on improving your caster level (lesser form of infinite spells; Consumptive Field [Spell Compendium] and such make buffing your caster level quite easy), et cetera.

[Bullet06320]

I'm particularly fond of the conjurer in Treantmonklvl20 guid to being a wizard god (with the odd tweak) as the spell list particularly suits my play style.

for conjuration and summoning 5th post has relevant links http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498825-the-Conjurer-s-Handbook&highlight=conjuration%20handbook

[Gusmo]

I will give a shout out to metamagic with celerity for being pretty awesome. Arcane fusion followed by twinned celerity followed by a couple more arcane fusions is fun.

[Rebel7284]

I will give a shout out to metamagic with celerity for being pretty awesome. Arcane fusion followed by twinned celerity followed by a couple more arcane fusions is fun.

This is a fun thing to do, but for the benefit of a new player, I should point out that for a wizard to do this, you need to jump through a bunch of hoops.
1. Get Arcane Fusion on your spell list as it's typically a sorcerer spell.
2. Confirm with your DM that Arcane Fusion even works with Wizard spells known as it's not 100% clear from the books.
3. Become immune to Daze (usually done with two Dragonmarked feats from eberron or a 4th level paladin spell via Limited Wish)

Anyway, to answer your question for what to take after Incantatrix, there are plenty of good to excellent caster PrCs some of which work particularly great at higher levels.
1. Nightmare Spinner: you can take one level of this after you have 9th level spells, and while it doesn't progress your casting, it gives you a spell of each level, which is pretty nice.
2. Archmage and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil have already been mentioned as good classes, but they have pretty heavy requirements, so I would avoid them personally.
3. A level or two of Loremaster is fine. You can get a free feat in exchange for visiting Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
4. Four levels of Fatespinner gives you a couple of rerolls and slight numeric boosts to a few rolls per day.
5. Sacred Exorcist, probably just one level. There are a number of powerful uses for Turn Undead attempts in this game. You can get access to them.
6. Five levels of Shadowcraft Mage: If you are a Gnome or a part of a shadow cabal, you essentially get spontaneous casting from two schools. This class is amazing.
7. War Weaver 5: cast all the lower level buffs as a move action on your whole party... sure!
8. Red Wizard/Halruaan Elder circle magic is just broken.

As far as feats go,
Craft Contingent Spell: This is pretty amazing. You have an answer for everything... then more answers if those fall through and can give away some to your party too if you're feeling generous (you should.)
Item Familiar: Makes your class abilities easy to use.
Uncanny Forethought: Cast any spell you know, because **** Sorcerers that's why.

[Sr Gaspar Livin]

2. Confirm with your DM that Arcane Fusion even works with Wizard spells known as it's not 100% clear from the books.

By RAW, Wizards know Wizard spells, Arcane Fusion don't work with Wizard Spells know.

[Gusmo]

I forgot that the OP specified wizard, personally. Good points made all around, though.

[Azuse]

Well, you've given me a massive amount of information to think about, and it's been a lot of reading, but I finally feel like I've got a pretty good idea of where I want to go with this. I feel like I've chosen one of the most complicated classes to begin 3.5 and my lack of knowledge has been a handicap. Thank you for all the advice.

I'm sure I'll have more questions but for now may I simply ask, which domain? I'm comfortable with the idea of specialising in the conjuration school (and love meta-magic rods), but looking over the domain wizard it feels to me like a toss up between conjurer, transmuter or storm.

I should note, that the DM house rule for spells is to ignore material component costs, including xp, - hello Gate :) .

Conjuration has the most spells I'll use daily, but I'll be stuck with mage armor in my 1st slot once I've gained greater mage armor.
Transumtation has less wanted spells, but polymorph :)
Storm has an interesting set of otherwise unattainable spells, none of which I'm remotely familiar with, which I am unsure about.
Antimatter is also quite unique.

Does anyone have any options on say, Eidetic, conjuration/storm Domain, collegiate wizard?