Question on some spell interactions

[WarKitty]

Sorry about the vague title, too many players on this forum and I don't want to give my tricks away just yet. Anyway, this is 3.PF.

My question is about how freedom of movement works for flying creatures in heavy weather, especially magical weather. Would freedom of movement allow a flying creature to fly normally in a summoned storm?

[Psyren]

Debates have raged about this spell for years. Does it stop wind? Does it stop armor check penalties/speed reduction? Does it stop regular ropes and chains? Animated ones?

There is no definitive answer, so you'll have to decide. Personally I would let it get you through a magical storm, but that's just my lone opinion.

[WarKitty]

Debates have raged about this spell for years. Does it stop wind? Does it stop armor check penalties/speed reduction? Does it stop regular ropes and chains? Animated ones?

There is no definitive answer, so you'll have to decide. Personally I would let it get you through a magical storm, but that's just my lone opinion.

My worry is if I decide, I'm going to get objections from my group that I'm "cheating" because "the spell doesn't work that way." I'm mostly trying to stop my druid from neutralizing every flying encounter with a massive storm.

[Venger]

no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) the list freedom of movement protects you from is exhaustive.

If you're looking for a more unassailable RAW way of doing so, depending on what kind of casting you gave the dragon, you could have him use stormrage, which provides explicit immunity to natural or magical wind, allowing you to behave normally in the air. if he's got cleric or druid casting, great, if not, let him use it from a scroll, leaving it more vulnerable to detection and dispelling so if the party is clever, your druid can still use control winds

[Gusmo]

If your group collectively thinks there's a clear answer, great, go with it. However, as you can see, this is not a question that has a clear answer. It's not really fair to accuse someone of cheating in such undefined circumstances. As long as the spell works the same way for everyone in the game, everything should be fine.

[Psyren]

The spell specifically references "magic that impedes movement", so you could probably make a case for natural storms/wind being unaffected. But if your players are going to complain, you might be hosed regardless.

Alternatively, disregard the open-ended nature of the "even under" clause and say that only what is specifically listed in the spell is stopped at your table.

[WarKitty]

no (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) the list freedom of movement protects you from is exhaustive.

If you're looking for a more unassailable RAW way of doing so, depending on what kind of casting you gave the dragon, you could have him use stormrage, which provides explicit immunity to natural or magical wind, allowing you to behave normally in the air. if he's got cleric or druid casting, great, if not, let him use it from a scroll, leaving it more vulnerable to detection and dispelling so if the party is clever, your druid can still use control winds

I think part of this is trying to prevent "the party" from meaning "the druid and maybe the wizard."

[Psyren]

Have you thought of challenging them some way other than bad weather? What level are they? If they're using their highest level spells on countering bad weather, that's still a win for you; it means those slots aren't being used on powerful offensive magic.

If, say, the Druid puts FoM on the Barbarian and the Wizard helps him fly, so the Barbarian can get in the face of the enemy harpies safely, it means all three characters are shining in the fight. Why is that a problem?

[WarKitty]

Have you thought of challenging them some way other than bad weather? What level are they? If they're using their highest level spells on countering bad weather, that's still a win for you; it means those slots aren't being used on powerful offensive magic.

If, say, the Druid puts FoM on the Barbarian and the Wizard helps him fly, so the Barbarian can get in the face of the enemy harpies safely, it means all three characters are shining in the fight. Why is that a problem?

I think you're misunderstanding the situation. The problem is I'm using flying encounters, not that the they're being challenged with bad weather. But the druid immediately shuts down every flying encounter by using bad weather to force it to land.

[Allanimal]

I think you're misunderstanding the situation. The problem is I'm using flying encounters, not that the they're being challenged with bad weather. But the druid immediately shuts down every flying encounter by using bad weather to force it to land.

Can the magical bad weather be dispelled?

[WarKitty]

Can the magical bad weather be dispelled?

Technically yes but he used CL boosts.

[Matrota]

I'm mostly trying to stop my druid from neutralizing every flying encounter with a massive storm.

Introduce a Stormlord. The Stormlord PrC gives the ability to fly like the spell inside of any storm, unhindered by the wind conditions. Have them ride in on a flying mount, and when the druid uses a big ol' storm, have the Stormlord laugh as they jump off of their mount and levitate in the air, hurling thunderbolts from the lofty skies. The storm will just end up making them look awesome in the end.

[Psyren]

Ah, I thought the issue was that your players were using FoM to get around the challenge. If its the monsters you're worried about, then FoM's wording is very broad and should allow them to ignore magical weather impediments.

Question - what spell are your players even using to do this? Most weather spells are impractical for combat (one of the exceptions being Control Winds, the likely culprit here.)


Can the magical bad weather be dispelled?

Yes - most spells that affect weather have a duration and therefore the magic is ongoing (and can be interrupted.) So this should work too.

You can also have an enemy druid/shaman/whatever counterspell the druid PC's attempts to manipulate the weather, or have any enemy spellcaster do so with Dispel Magic. Or just disrupt his spellcast with readied damage.


Technically yes but he used CL boosts.

A direct counterspell (i.e. using the same spell, but reversed) will ignore his CL no matter how high it is. Disjunction will too but this is a nuclear option. Alternatively, you can have an enemy spellcaster put the wind/weather back the way it was.

[WarKitty]

Introduce a Stormlord. The Stormlord PrC gives the ability to fly like the spell inside of any storm, unhindered by the wind conditions. Have them ride in on a flying mount, and when the druid uses a big ol' storm, have the Stormlord laugh as they jump off of their mount and levitate in the air, hurling thunderbolts from the lofty skies. The storm will just end up making them look awesome.

I specificall have dragons I want to make a good encounter. The trouble is a dragon on the ground isn't a big threat.

[Matrota]

I specificall have dragons I want to make a good encounter. The trouble is a dragon on the ground isn't a big threat.

Stormlords can also confer the ability to ignore bad weather onto their mounts, so you could have a dragon with a Stormlord dragon rider. Would certainly make a cool encounter.

[Matrota]

Also, any dragon worth their scales should be able to fly in a storm a druid creates. Dragon Fort saves are really high after all

[Venger]

I think part of this is trying to prevent "the party" from meaning "the druid and maybe the wizard."

I mentioned them because they're the only ones who you've specified.

What specifically is your party breakdown so we can tailor the dragon template et al to allow each party member to meaningfully contribute?

[WarKitty]

I mentioned them because they're the only ones who you've specified.

What specifically is your party breakdown so we can tailor the dragon template et al to allow each party member to meaningfully contribute?

Druid, necromancer wizard, buffer cleric, cavalier, rogue. Level 12 / mythic 2.

[Dagroth]

Stormlords can also confer the ability to ignore bad weather onto their mounts, so you could have a dragon with a Stormlord dragon rider. Would certainly make a cool encounter.

Or the Dragon could just be a Stormlord.

[Psyren]

The other big problem here is that it's a single-monster encounter. These are almost universally a bad idea because of action economy - either the dragon will be a pushover as the party swarms it, or it will curbstomp them by being impervious to most of what they dish out while simultaneously hitting like a freight train. There's very little middle ground.

Give the dragon minions - reverent kobolds or lizardfolk, enslaved goblinoids or giants, attendant elementals or constructs... just anything that will divide the party's attention. The Stormlord rider isn't a bad idea either.

EDIT: I also haven't seen a response to my question above - what spell is the party using to bring down your flying encounters? Have you considered countering it directly?

[WarKitty]

The other big problem here is that it's a single-monster encounter. These are almost universally a bad idea because of action economy - either the dragon will be a pushover as the party swarms it, or it will curbstomp them by being impervious to most of what they dish out while simultaneously hitting like a freight train. There's very little middle ground.

Give the dragon minions - reverent kobolds or lizardfolk, enslaved goblinoids or giants, attendant elementals or constructs... just anything that will divide the party's attention. The Stormlord rider isn't a bad idea either.

EDIT: I also haven't seen a response to my question above - what spell is the party using to bring down your flying encounters? Have you considered countering it directly?

I think it's control winds, but I'm not sure? He adds damage to it, but I'm not sure if that's from the spell or from some of his special abilities.

[Psyren]

I think it's control winds, but I'm not sure? He adds damage to it, but I'm not sure if that's from the spell or from some of his special abilities.

As GM, your players should be telling you exactly what ability they're using to accomplish a specific effect - if he's not saying what it is, I would encourage you to make him do so. Then you can figure out specific situations that challenge him by forcing him to mix up his tactics, either over time or on the fly.

[WarKitty]

As GM, your players should be telling you exactly what ability they're using to accomplish a specific effect - if he's not saying what it is, I would encourage you to make him do so. Then you can figure out specific situations that challenge him by forcing him to mix up his tactics, either over time or on the fly.

I'm pretty sure the problem is my shoddy memory here. :smallbiggrin:

[WarKitty]

Ok, confirmed, it is control winds. He has an extra +4 to his caster level potential over his actual level.

[TheBrassDuke]

How so? That is, how has he achieved this? What's his sheet look like?

[WarKitty]

How so? That is, how has he achieved this? What's his sheet look like?

+1 from a racial ability, +1 from ioun stone, +2 from a mythic ability.

[SaintNick]

I'd say that Freedom of Movement would allow you to fly in heavy weather based on the text found in the SRD. The core of the spell's description is, "this spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell..." The rest of the wording is just answering specific questions the author thought would likely come up. If you can normally fly in the environment then you would continue to do so while under the spell when facing movement impediments.

One particular concern I see is whether it extends to mental control and/or compulsion effects. Based on the fact that all listed examples include only physical impediments, I'd say having it not work against mental-based effects would be reasonable.

[TheBrassDuke]

This, while it's just a theory, may be of some use. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/32233/what-are-freedom-of-movements-limits)