Help me build a Treachery Paladin (Race & Feats)

[jaappleton]

The Treachery Paladin is available here:
http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf

All books and UA available, EXCEPT for Yuan-Ti and races with at-will flight. So Protector Aasimar yes, Winged Tiefling no, for example.

Level 5.


I'm thinking Mariner style, for climbing speed and +1 to AC.

Glaive or Greatsword for the weapon.

I'll have Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Cloak of Protection to start with, so with point buy, I can get 19 Str, 16 Con, 16 Cha with little issue. That sets me with Plate Mail, +1 from Mariner, +1 from Cloak, to 20 AC.

Now, the question is this:

Race, because this plays into potential Feats.

VHuman lets me start with GWF and PAM. That's a LOT of attacks and damage. With Bless, and my Monk friend using Stunning Strike and Proning, we should be wrecking faces pretty reliably.

Alternatively, I could pick another race, maybe get Resistance to something, or a unique Racial ability... Aasimar is a solid option, as are multiple other races. Half-Drow nets me a daily use of Faerie Fire, which is always solid, but I think I'll have enough Advantage between my Monk ally and Treachery's abilities.

Of course, any race besides VHuman still nets me a single Feat.

Thoughts?

[deathadder99]

The Treachery Paladin is available here:
http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UAPaladin_SO_20161219_1.pdf

All books and UA available, EXCEPT for Yuan-Ti and races with at-will flight. So Protector Aasimar yes, Winged Tiefling no, for example.

Level 5.


I'm thinking Mariner style, for climbing speed and +1 to AC.

Glaive or Greatsword for the weapon.

I'll have Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Cloak of Protection to start with, so with point buy, I can get 19 Str, 16 Con, 16 Cha with little issue. That sets me with Plate Mail, +1 from Mariner, +1 from Cloak, to 20 AC.

Now, the question is this:

Race, because this plays into potential Feats.

VHuman lets me start with GWF and PAM. That's a LOT of attacks and damage. With Bless, and my Monk friend using Stunning Strike and Proning, we should be wrecking faces pretty reliably.

Alternatively, I could pick another race, maybe get Resistance to something, or a unique Racial ability... Aasimar is a solid option, as are multiple other races. Half-Drow nets me a daily use of Faerie Fire, which is always solid, but I think I'll have enough Advantage between my Monk ally and Treachery's abilities.

Of course, any race besides VHuman still nets me a single Feat.

Thoughts?


The treachery capstone is very strong, and the poison damage scales with paladin level, so I would avoid multiclass. If you're starting with Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, then I would probably avoid VHuman as you basically get two free feats from not having to bump strength.

Polearm Master synergises really well with paladin in general, and it will also help you deal extra poison damage with your Channel Divinity. GWM somewhat treads on PAM's toes, by competing with your bonus action. I'd probably take Sentinel over GWM, to give you an extra way of attacking off turn. GWM could be good if your DM lets you use the +10 damage on the butt of the polearm, but it feels wasted tbh as you have an awful lot of bonus actions. I think +2 Cha really outweighs that.

You could also use Tunnel Fighter to hit even more off turn, especially as great weapon fighting style isn't amazing unless you can reroll smites (ask your DM). Remember the Sentinel attack is NOT an opportunity attack, so you only get one attack against an enemy who attacks an ally. The Polearm Master attack IS an opportunity attack, so perfect.

Half Elf is always a fantastic choice for paladin, because of all the skills and the +Cha. Resilient Con or Dex would be very good, and maybe you should try to start with 16 Con, 17 Charisma so as not to waste the extra point.

A strong spread sounds like 8 Str /14 Dex /16 Con /8 Int /12 Wis /17 Cha. Though this does leave you weak without your Giant's strength, but you have respectable Dexterity and could fall back to dual wielding daggers. You could also drop Cha to 17 and grab 15 dex if you wanted Resilient Dex.

In terms of feat progression -
4: PAM
8: Sentinel
12: +2 Cha
16: Charisma to 20, +Con/Dex if started with 17 Cha
19: Resilient Con/Dex

[Specter]

With so many ways to get advantage, it would be foolish not to take Great Weapon Master. But since your bonus action will be busy, and your reaction occasionally, Polearm Master may not be such a good idea. Half-Elf can get you there smoothly: two skills, CHA-STR-CON boosts, darkvision and charm resistance. Starting with 16-10-14-8-12-16, you can't go wrong.

[jaappleton]

With so many ways to get advantage, it would be foolish not to take Great Weapon Master. But since your bonus action will be busy, and your reaction occasionally, Polearm Master may not be such a good idea. Half-Elf can get you there smoothly: two skills, CHA-STR-CON boosts, darkvision and charm resistance. Starting with 16-10-14-8-12-16, you can't go wrong.

Emphasis mine.

This was my line of thought. Critting or killing an enemy nets me a bonus action attack, which lessens the appeal of PAM.

Tunnel Fighter, as good as it is, is going to simply cause my DM to throw tons of Archers at us, I'm willing to bet on that. Not that there's anything wrong with a DM trying to get by a characters strong points now and then, but I want to be optimized, not piss my DM off. :smallbiggrin:

[deathadder99]

With so many ways to get advantage, it would be foolish not to take Great Weapon Master. But since your bonus action will be busy, and your reaction occasionally, Polearm Master may not be such a good idea. Half-Elf can get you there smoothly: two skills, CHA-STR-CON boosts, darkvision and charm resistance. Starting with 16-10-14-8-12-16, you can't go wrong.


I'd argue the other way, you really want to maximise the number of attacks per turn you do as the real damage comes from your Channel Divinity, with a potential of 40 extra damage per strike with advantage. Polearm Master gives you a potential two attacks more per turn (and even more with Tunnel Fighter + Sentinel!). Tunnel Fighter also means PAM doesn't use up your reaction - though at the cost of your bonus action.

[jaappleton]

I'd argue the other way, you really want to maximise the number of attacks per turn you do as the real damage comes from your Channel Divinity, with a potential of 40 extra damage per strike with advantage. Polearm Master gives you a potential two attacks more per turn (and even more with Tunnel Fighter + Sentinel!). Tunnel Fighter also means PAM doesn't use up your reaction - though at the cost of your bonus action.

Read the channel divinity again.

It's a bonus action to activate, and applies only on your next successful hit.

[deathadder99]

Emphasis mine.

This was my line of thought. Critting or killing an enemy nets me a bonus action attack, which lessens the appeal of PAM.

Tunnel Fighter, as good as it is, is going to simply cause my DM to throw tons of Archers at us, I'm willing to bet on that. Not that there's anything wrong with a DM trying to get by a characters strong points now and then, but I want to be optimized, not piss my DM off. :smallbiggrin:


....

Read the channel divinity again.

It's a bonus action to activate, and applies only on your next successful hit.


Fair enough. Then I rescind my comments.

I'd take GWM over PAM then, and grab a greatsword. On the topic of not reading things correctly - Mariner only applies if you are wearing light or medium armor as well, so you'd have to grab Defense fighting style instead if you're wearing plate :P. I would keep sentinel, as the off-turn attack is going to occur quite often if you're standing next to your monk friend.

So 8 Str /14 (15) Dex /16 Con /8 Int /12 Wis/17(16) Cha Half-Elf.

4: GWM
8: Sentinel
12: +2 Cha
16: Charisma to 20, +Con/Dex if started with 17 Cha
19: Resilient Con/Dex

[jaappleton]

Fair enough. Then I rescind my comments.

I'd take GWM over PAM then, and grab a greatsword. On the topic of not reading things correctly - Mariner only applies if you are wearing light or medium armor as well, so you'd have to grab Defense fighting style instead if you're wearing plate :P. I would keep sentinel, as the off-turn attack is going to occur quite often if you're standing next to your monk friend.

So 8 Str /14 (15) Dex /16 Con /8 Int /12 Wis/17(16) Cha Half-Elf.

4: GWM
8: Sentinel
12: +2 Cha
16: Charisma to 20, +Con/Dex if started with 17 Cha
19: Resilient Con/Dex

Emphasis mine.

Touche'. :smalltongue:

Yeah, Defense it is. I'm actually thinking Resilient at 8. That's +3 (+4 at lv9) proficiency bonus, so that's 3+3+3+1 (Cloak of Protection) to Concentration, letting me auto-save on anything 10 or below. And that much easier to maintain Bless, to further bolster saves and attack roll bonus.

[deathadder99]

Emphasis mine.

Touche'. :smalltongue:

Yeah, Defense it is. I'm actually thinking Resilient at 8. That's +3 (+4 at lv9) proficiency bonus, so that's 3+3+3+1 (Cloak of Protection) to Concentration, letting me auto-save on anything 10 or below. And that much easier to maintain Bless, to further bolster saves and attack roll bonus.

Yeah, 18 Con + Resilient + 20 Cha is going to mean you are rarely going to fail a save. Maybe delay sentinel until 20 cha, depending on how often it comes up. Or take something different (it's not as good if not playing on a grid).

[jaappleton]

GWM at 4
Resilient at 8

That's locked in, I think we agree on that stuff.

So.... What race?

[deathadder99]

GWM at 4
Resilient at 8

That's locked in, I think we agree on that stuff.

So.... What race?

I would say that Half-Elf is just too good to pass up. The Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are pretty much the equivalent of two feats, so negate the benefit of V.Human. Half-Elf has a perfect stat spread and also lets you get +Cha, +Con, as well as having more stats across the board. You also get the extra skill, or a free cantrip, or Drow Magic or whatever.

[jaappleton]

Just trying to explore all options.

Fire Genasi nets me Darkvision, Fire Resistance and a decent ranged attack with Produce Flame... Con as my spellcasting score, though. Hmm.

Dragonborn nets me an AoE attack and resistance, but not much else.

Tiefling nets me a couple spells, and Fire Resistance, and Darkvision.

[jaappleton]

Wait wait wait wait wait... Hold up. One second.

Kor from Planeshift: Zendikar.

I'd be a Medium size Halfling. IMMUNITY TO ROLLING 1s!

Gotta be worth strong consideration, right?

Point Buy, after Gauntlets becomes...

S 8 - 19
D 8 - 10
C 16 - 16
I 8 - 8
W 11 - 12
C 16 - 16

With Brave, Lucky, Athletics and Acrobatics proficiency for free... That ain't bad. Lucky is damn sexy.

[deathadder99]

Wait wait wait wait wait... Hold up. One second.

Kor from Planeshift: Zendikar.

I'd be a Medium size Halfling. IMMUNITY TO ROLLING 1s!

Gotta be worth strong consideration, right?

Point Buy, after Gauntlets becomes...

S 8 - 19
D 8 - 10
C 16 - 16
I 8 - 8
W 11 - 12
C 16 - 16

With Brave, Lucky, Athletics and Acrobatics proficiency for free... That ain't bad. Lucky is damn sexy.

It looks really nice - only issue is that point buy caps you at 15 before racial abilities, and Kor get +Wis, +Dex so you can't get Cha/Con to 16. Unless you're running with some houserule to let you do that.

[jaappleton]

Point buy does that if you're going by AL recs.

[deathadder99]

Point buy does that if you're going by AL recs.

I'm not familiar with AL, so correct me if I'm wrong. The FAQ says "You can generate your character’s ability scores using one of the following methods:
•Standard Array(15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8)
•Variant: Customizing Ability Scores option on page 13 of the Player’s Handbook"


In the PHB, on page 13 it says "Using this method, 15 is the highest ability score you can end up with, before applying racial increases.". The Kor don't have +Cha or +Con, so you're capped at 15.