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Morty
2007-07-30, 09:09 AM
I've been pondering about a character build for a while now. He's going to be outsider-hunter using that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2258037#post2258037) PrC. He's planned to be 10 level, so I was going to give him 6 levels of Fighter(he needs +6 BaB for the PrC anyway) to get feats in order to make him shock trooping/leap attacking guy, and then 4 levels left in PrC. I'd maybe swap fighter levels for something else if I didn't need feats. But later, I decided to make him some speed-relying quick combatant, to better suit the concept of the character. However, that's where I got stuck as I don't have much experience with melee character optimization. Any thoughts? Book available are core, Comp. Warrior, Comp. Arcane, Comp. Adventurer, PHB II and Spell Compendium.
Stats for now: Human, Chaotic Neutral
Str: 17
Dex: 15
Con: 13
Int: 13
Wis: 12
Cha: 12
(not counting ability raises on 4 and 8 level)

Darrin
2007-07-30, 10:03 AM
He's planned to be 10 level, so I was going to give him 6 levels of Fighter(he needs +6 BaB for the PrC anyway) to get feats in order to make him shock trooping/leap attacking guy, and then 4 levels left in PrC. I'd maybe swap fighter levels for something else if I didn't need feats.

You'll have to be more specific about what you're trying to optimize and what feats you're interested in. While Fighter 6 is ok, there are more efficient ways to get the feats you need via 1- or 2-level dips, so you don't waste any "empty levels" (Fighter 3 and Fighter 5 are empty). Some popular dips:

Barbarian 1: Check UA totem variants for feats like Toughness, Blindfight, and Run. Also, the Lion totem from Complete Champion gives you Pounce on charges.

Ranger 1/2/3: Gives you Track, Rapid Shot/TWF, and Endurance. Also full BAB.

Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse. Full BAB and also leads to Precise Strike for Int-based builds.

Monk 1/2: Using the variant fighting styles from UA or the Martial Monk variant from Dragon #310 allows you to pick up fighter bonus feats.

Cleric 1: Weapon Focus (War Domain), Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain), Blind-Fight (Darkness Domain). Also, picking up Enlarge Person (Strength Domain) is nice for trip or grapple builds. Free-action (Travel Domain) and Smite (Destruction Domain) can also be fun.

SwordSage 1: Flexible Weapon Focus (switch +1 to different weapon styles).

Warblade 1: Weapon Adaptation (switch weapon-specific feats such as Imp. Critical to different weapons).

The Racial Paragon classes from UA are also quite dippable if you're looking for a bonus feat or another caster level before getting into your first PrC.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 10:46 AM
Power Attack->Leap Attack->Improved Bull Rush->Shock Trooper is the gold standard of melee damage. Make sure you pick up a reach weapon though, because your AC is going to be garbage after you charge with Shock Trooper.

It's too bad that other books aren't allowable, because there are plenty of great high damage combo's out there that you don't see very often because they're so feat intensive. But given what you have I suggest:

Combat Reflexes+Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). The classic compliment to the Power Attack tree to add defense and battlefield control to your build.

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability: PHBII: Makes you more of a defensive tank. Once you hit someone, your Combat Focus kicks in for 10+ rounds. With these three feats, while in Combat Focus you gain +4 to your Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist any bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempt made against you. A perfect compliment to any Trip or Grapple build.

Dodge + Mobility + Elusive Target: Complete Warrior: Not super effective unless you also have Improved Trip, but even by itself its really handy. Dodge and Mobility will give you a minor bonus to AC. Elusive Target negates Power Attack, screws people who flank you, and gives you a free Trip against anyone who misses an AoO against you due to your movement. Might fit perfectly with your desire for a more speed oriented build.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-30, 11:08 AM
The PrC seems pretty bland to me mechanically ... I can see how someone might be attracted the outsider transformation, but it lacks anything really interesting mechanically to differentiate it. You get full BAB and good saves ... and that's about it, smite as always is useless (the paladin is the wrong class to borrow mechanics from) and the magical abilities can be gained from magic items too. I don't really understand how the whole emotionless thing fits the flavor either.

All that said, I'd go for ranger 2/fighter 4 ... the skills and skillpoints, +2 to reflex, favored enemy bonus, track and combat style are better than the single fighter bonus feats.

Morty
2007-07-30, 11:33 AM
It's too bad that other books aren't allowable, because there are plenty of great high damage combo's out there that you don't see very often because they're so feat intensive. But given what you have I suggest:

What books do you mean? I have very limited acces to books, but maybe I could get something


Combat Reflexes+Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knock-Down (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divineFeats.html). The classic compliment to the Power Attack tree to add defense and battlefield control to your build.

From what I know, builds like that use rech weapons, while I'd like to use sword.


Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability: PHBII: Makes you more of a defensive tank. Once you hit someone, your Combat Focus kicks in for 10+ rounds. With these three feats, while in Combat Focus you gain +4 to your Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist any bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, and trip attempt made against you. A perfect compliment to any Trip or Grapple build.

That looks good, but it's going to be offense-centered character.


Dodge + Mobility + Elusive Target: Complete Warrior: Not super effective unless you also have Improved Trip, but even by itself its really handy. Dodge and Mobility will give you a minor bonus to AC. Elusive Target negates Power Attack, screws people who flank you, and gives you a free Trip against anyone who misses an AoO against you due to your movement. Might fit perfectly with your desire for a more speed oriented build.

Hmmm. That seems to fit my concept the best from the above builds. I'll try this out. With 6 levels of fighter on 4 levels of Demonhunter I'll probably have feats necessary.
Overall, thanks. But I'm still open for suggestions if someone have them.


The PrC seems pretty bland to me mechanically ... I can see how someone might be attracted the outsider transformation, but it lacks anything really interesting mechanically to differentiate it. You get full BAB and good saves ... and that's about it, smite as always is useless (the paladin is the wrong class to borrow mechanics from) and the magical abilities can be gained from magic items too. I don't really understand how the whole emotionless thing fits the flavor either.

This PrC is centered on fighting outsiders, so I gave it abilities against outsiders that cover most fighters' weakness against them. Also, I was preety sure I explained their emotionlessness.

Darrin
2007-07-30, 02:17 PM
Hmmm. That seems to fit my concept the best from the above builds. I'll try this out. With 6 levels of fighter on 4 levels of Demonhunter I'll probably have feats necessary.
Overall, thanks. But I'm still open for suggestions if someone have them.


I'll second the suggestion to start with Ranger 2/Fighter 4. Picking up Elusive Target at 6th level, it might look something like:

1) Ranger 1, Feat: Track, Feat: Dodge
2) Ranger 2, Feat: TWF, Feat: Combat Expertise
3) Fighter 1, Feat: Improved Trip, Feat: Knock-Down (from Divine section of the SRD)
4) Fighter 2, Feat: Mobility, Feat: Spring Attack
5) Fighter 3
6) Fighter 4, Feat: Elusive Target, Feat: ???

Unfortunately, TWF+Spring Attack don't work well together, unless you pick up a Pounce ability from somewhere. I'd recommend against Dual Strike, the -4 isn't worth it.

You'll want to take a close look at the Dervish PrC if you want to maximize Elusive Target. The Dervish Dance ability would allow you to move and make a full attack, and you'd get a free trip attempt (plus a chance for a free attack via Improved Trip) every time you Dervish Dance through a threatened square and provoke an AoO. If you want to go into Dervish, then you'd take Weapon Focus: something slashing at level 4 instead of Spring Attack (which you'd get at Dervish 3 for free).

Tempest might be worth a look, also, but it takes 5 levels to get a non-sucky version of Dual Strike. You'll get a lot more mileage with a 1-level dip into Lion-Totem Barbarian.

Another issue you may run into is Tumble, the end-all-be-all skill for high-mobility "you can't hit me!" characters, isn't a class skill for either Rangers or Fighters. You may want to consider trading out some fighter levels for a level or two of Swashbuckler to max out your Tumble ranks. Another full BAB base class with Tumble would be Warblade, but that's in Tome of Battle, which a lot of DMs get freaked out about (for silly reaons, it's an awesome book).

Morty
2007-07-30, 02:35 PM
I'll second the suggestion to start with Ranger 2/Fighter 4. Picking up Elusive Target at 6th level, it might look something like:

1) Ranger 1, Feat: Track, Feat: Dodge
2) Ranger 2, Feat: TWF, Feat: Combat Expertise
3) Fighter 1, Feat: Improved Trip, Feat: Knock-Down (from Divine section of the SRD)
4) Fighter 2, Feat: Mobility, Feat: Spring Attack
5) Fighter 3
6) Fighter 4, Feat: Elusive Target, Feat: ???

Unfortunately, TWF+Spring Attack don't work well together, unless you pick up a Pounce ability from somewhere. I'd recommend against Dual Strike, the -4 isn't worth it.

You'll want to take a close look at the Dervish PrC if you want to maximize Elusive Target. The Dervish Dance ability would allow you to move and make a full attack, and you'd get a free trip attempt (plus a chance for a free attack via Improved Trip) every time you Dervish Dance through a threatened square and provoke an AoO. If you want to go into Dervish, then you'd take Weapon Focus: something slashing at level 4 instead of Spring Attack (which you'd get at Dervish 3 for free).

Tempest might be worth a look, also, but it takes 5 levels to get a non-sucky version of Dual Strike. You'll get a lot more mileage with a 1-level dip into Lion-Totem Barbarian.

Another issue you may run into is Tumble, the end-all-be-all skill for high-mobility "you can't hit me!" characters, isn't a class skill for either Rangers or Fighters. You may want to consider trading out some fighter levels for a level or two of Swashbuckler to max out your Tumble ranks. Another full BAB base class with Tumble would be Warblade, but that's in Tome of Battle, which a lot of DMs get freaked out about (for silly reaons, it's an awesome book).

I've considered Ranger, but I'd prefer to use one weapon. I'd rather not take any Dervish levels as well. I don't have Complete Champion, so Lion Totem is out. I don't have ToB, and I won't use it anyway.
And BTW, Tumble isn't that much of a problem, as it's class skill for my Demonhunter PrC.

PinkysBrain
2007-07-30, 02:44 PM
You don't have to take TWF ... if you have decent dex then a ranged weapon is always nice to have as backup.

PS. never use spring attack, spring attack doesn't contribute anything useful to a party (it does zilch damage and just makes everyone else, ie. the people doing actual damage, easier targets to reach).

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 03:25 PM
What books do you mean? I have very limited acces to books, but maybe I could get something.

Well, there are literally thousands of feats out there. If you describe to me exactly what you want to do, I could probably find a feat and build to do it. But being limited to half a dozen books limits me to only a few hundred feats and a few dozen viable classes.

For example, Dungeonscape has a feat called Gnome Tunnel Acrobats. In some ways its the superior version of Elusive Target, in that if you succeed in a Tumble check, you force your opponent to attack another opponent without ever risking him hitting you. It has no feat entry requirements except that you have some Skills and be a Gnome, which is fine, because you can be a Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) (assuming you're allowed Races of Stone).

In general, newer books are more powerful then older books. The classic Complete series is much older then Tome of Battle et al, and thus you are limited to a weaker set of choices.

Morty
2007-07-30, 04:17 PM
Unfortunaetly, I have limited acces to books, not to mention disliking ToB even if I had got it.
Basically, I want a character who is skilled in killing outsiders- but that I've got more or less covered by my PrC. He's supposed to be fighting with sword, and rely more on speed and wits rather than muscles and toughness. He's got to be a human, too.
So far, dodge+mobility+elusive target looks like my best set.

You don't have to take TWF ... if you have decent dex then a ranged weapon is always nice to have as backup.

Good point. I'll consider that.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 10:36 PM
Unfortunaetly, I have limited acces to books, not to mention disliking ToB even if I had got it.
Basically, I want a character who is skilled in killing outsiders- but that I've got more or less covered by my PrC. He's supposed to be fighting with sword, and rely more on speed and wits rather than muscles and toughness. He's got to be a human, too.
So far, dodge+mobility+elusive target looks like my best set.


Good point. I'll consider that.

If what you really want to do is kill Outsiders, then you should look at the Knight of the Chalice prestige class in Complete Warrior. The entire PrC is built entirely around killing Evil Outsiders.

Morty
2007-07-31, 04:14 AM
If what you really want to do is kill Outsiders, then you should look at the Knight of the Chalice prestige class in Complete Warrior. The entire PrC is built entirely around killing Evil Outsiders.

I know that PrC, but it completely doesn't fit my character at all. Besides, I already have PrC for outsider-killing. Now I'm trying to make my character effective at killing other enemies.