Dragon Shaman Questions

[carrdrivesyou]

So I am mostly following the advice in this handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214007-3-5-Dragon-Shaman-Handbook

It seems fairly laid out, but I normally stick to bard, beguilers, sorcerers, and rogue gishes. First time really playing with the class, and I don't want to feel useless as a tank/breather. So, onto my questions...

1. If my generous DM allows me the Dragonborn template at level 1, would it be better to take the Wings or the Breath Weapon perk? Alternatively, if I do take the Breath Weapon perk, is it on a separate cooldown from the breath weapon granted by the class (or does one supercede the other)?

2. Depending on whether or not I get a breath weapon at 1st or 4th level, what would be the best order to put the Meta-breath feats in? (Picking from: Entangling Exhalation, Maximize Breath, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, Heighten Breath; as well as Endurance+Steadfast Determination, and Power Attack).

3. Would my battle strategy be anything other than: Round one, breathe, stacking as many meta-breath feats on as possible (that would be appropriate), round two, swing with whatever is in my hands for all I'm worth?

4. The Handbook regards Copper and Blue totem dragons as having the "best" breath weapon and abilities. The only issue I have is that Both of those produce line effects. If memory serves, there was a feat that allowed you to reshape your breath weapon? Or maybe it was a DFA Invocation? Not really sure on this one at all. Just seems a glorious waste of cooldown times in a fight to have a 30ft line of crackling electricity hang out for a few rounds when I could just subtract that and breathe again sooner.

Your thoughts Playgrounders?

[Rebel7284]

1. If my generous DM allows me the Dragonborn template at level 1, would it be better to take the Wings or the Breath Weapon perk? Alternatively, if I do take the Breath Weapon perk, is it on a separate cooldown from the breath weapon granted by the class (or does one supercede the other)?


The books never clarified how multiple breath weapons interact as far as I know. I can see arguments either way. [Ex] Flight is always nice. But having multiple breaths nearly doubles your effectiveness.



2. Depending on whether or not I get a breath weapon at 1st or 4th level, what would be the best order to put the Meta-breath feats in? (Picking from: Entangling Exhalation, Maximize Breath, Clinging Breath, Lingering Breath, Heighten Breath; as well as Endurance+Steadfast Determination, and Power Attack).


Entangling Exhalation is widely considered one of the best feats due to applying a very relevant debuff take that first. On a Dragonfire Adept I have helped build in the past I used quicken breath over maximize for action economy, but Dragon Shaman is not a dragonfire adept (and the DM allowed two breath weapons in that game). :)



3. Would my battle strategy be anything other than: Round one, breathe, stacking as many meta-breath feats on as possible (that would be appropriate), round two, swing with whatever is in my hands for all I'm worth?


Probably nothing much else. Appentice feat for UMD?



4. The Handbook regards Copper and Blue totem dragons as having the "best" breath weapon and abilities. The only issue I have is that Both of those produce line effects. If memory serves, there was a feat that allowed you to reshape your breath weapon? Or maybe it was a DFA Invocation? Not really sure on this one at all. Just seems a glorious waste of cooldown times in a fight to have a 30ft line of crackling electricity hang out for a few rounds when I could just subtract that and breathe again sooner.


There is always Shape Breath metabreath feat?

[carrdrivesyou]

I can see that maybe since it's from two different sources, and two different effects, that you could have two different breath weapons. So with that in mind, I think I would have to ask the DM more specifically in game. Knowing if I get two breath weapons or not kinda makes that choice for me. Pretty sure there will be a friendly arcanist nearby, and barring that, I am sure there are several items that can help in that regard.

As for battle strategy, I think it'll come back down to if I have one or two breath weapons. With one, I suppose I could drop Power Attack for Apprentice, but with two, I wouldn't even worry so much. Don't wanna suck up wand power from the rest of the team (i.e. rogue, casters, etc.).

I forgot about that feat. Wasn't sure where to look. Draconomicon I think. I'll have another look. Thanks!

[J-H]

Entangling exhalation is a no-save multiple round debuff. Get it asap.
One of my players now is running a dragonborn orc with 7 levels of ds and 1 of crusader. He is super tanky eith around 20-22 con with items. The 1 crusader level gave him some good damage boosts and shield block to jelp protect his mount. Only mounted combat, so not a heavy investment in charging, but enough that he is dangerous and very hard to kill.

[KillianHawkeye]

FWIW, the Draconomicon says that dragons who have multiple types of breath weapon must wait for the cool-down to expire before using either one of their breath weapons. See the sidebar on page 22.

[Godskook]

Just as a tangential, are you building a BreathWeapon-based D-Shaman? If so, have you considered playing a Dragonfire Adept?

[carrdrivesyou]

Just as a tangential, are you building a BreathWeapon-based D-Shaman? If so, have you considered playing a Dragonfire Adept?

I am mostly a tank, with my offensive abilities being based on my breath weapon and its effects. I have looked at the Dragonfire Adept, but it isn't for me. Quite frankly, it is too squishy, takes up the traditional "Mage" slot for a given group, and at end-game, are WOEFULLY underpowered, especially if they are good-aligned and their best option is Dissapointing Breath of Bahamut. Played em before, and have no love for the class haha.

[Jopustopin]

I am mostly a tank, with my offensive abilities being based on my breath weapon and its effects. I have looked at the Dragonfire Adept, but it isn't for me. Quite frankly, it is too squishy, takes up the traditional "Mage" slot for a given group, and at end-game, are WOEFULLY underpowered, especially if they are good-aligned and their best option is Dissapointing Breath of Bahamut. Played em before, and have no love for the class haha.

The Dragonfire Adept is far more tanky than he appears and ONLY needs one stat (he's SAD). A Dragon Shaman requires multiple attributes. DFA is all around better than the Dragonshaman. I've seen both in play; the dragonfire adept is very, very strong. Encounter ending strong. Whether through diplomacy or his entangling breath weapon. They will always be better than the Dragonshaman especially at higher levels.

A line hits more people than you think because even a 5' wide breath weapon is 10' wide since it travels down a straight line and affects all adjacent squares (although I never said the Blue was best - his draconic adaption is simply funny if you're a comedian and when you have an entire group of drinking buddies all able to use ventriloquism at will hilarity will ensue).

I'd get the breath weapon if you're going Dragonborn and starting at level 1. Otherwise grab the wings. Get Entangling Exhalation ASAP. I'd caution away from metabreath weapon feats unless you're getting a quickened breath weapon. In my opinion the best selection of feats for a Dragonshaman is the "Fear and Entangled" route and NOT the metabreath route. You can run the test at home - build a level 12 Dragonshaman two different ways and have him fight some guys and you'll see that the crowd control is more useful than damage.

[carrdrivesyou]

The Dragonfire Adept is far more tanky than he appears and ONLY needs one stat (he's SAD). A Dragon Shaman requires multiple attributes. DFA is all around better than the Dragonshaman. I've seen both in play; the dragonfire adept is very, very strong. Encounter ending strong. Whether through diplomacy or his entangling breath weapon. They will always be better than the Dragonshaman especially at higher levels.

A line hits more people than you think because even a 5' wide breath weapon is 10' wide since it travels down a straight line and affects all adjacent squares (although I never said the Blue was best - his draconic adaption is simply funny if you're a comedian and when you have an entire group of drinking buddies all able to use ventriloquism at will hilarity will ensue).

I'd get the breath weapon if you're going Dragonborn and starting at level 1. Otherwise grab the wings. Get Entangling Exhalation ASAP. I'd caution away from metabreath weapon feats unless you're getting a quickened breath weapon. In my opinion the best selection of feats for a Dragonshaman is the "Fear and Entangled" route and NOT the metabreath route. You can run the test at home - build a level 12 Dragonshaman two different ways and have him fight some guys and you'll see that the crowd control is more useful than damage.

You see, I tried this once. The DM ban-hammered the build quicker than I could fill in the character sheet. I love the theme of the DFA, but according to my regular GM, the class doesn't qualify for meta-breathe feats due to the line from the Draconomicon, page 66, "have to have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds," or something like that.

I tried arguing, but he was having none of it. He did say that I could take Warlock Invocations if I wanted. So there was SOME compromise. Still didn't warrant taking the class though.

I do agree that fear/entangled is nice. I think I will rebuild for that in mind. Not sure if the DM will allow skill tricks though. We will see.

I did the Blue Totem dragon before in an E6 campaign and it was actually equal parts hilarious as well as useful (we didn't have a mainline healer as divine magic was inaccessible, so we used a lot of hit and hide tactics), and our bard was able to use it to change the origin point for his songs. Was pretty interesting really. Just wanted to try something new, and I think he wants the party a bit less in the moral grey area of adventuring (he ran a LOT of evil campaigns).

[J-H]

Citation on 10' wide line please? That would also apply to lightning bolt and other spells.

Dfas do not usually make attack rolls, so in most cases there's no loss of combat effectiveness from wearing full plare and carrying a tower shield... especially as a dwarf with no speed penalty. In one of my games he is the highest ac character with the most hp.

[Jopustopin]

Citation on 10' wide line please? That would also apply to lightning bolt and other spells.

Player's Handbook pg. 176


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Jopustopin/Breathh_zpsbvitztgd.png


You see, I tried this once. The DM ban-hammered the build quicker than I could fill in the character sheet. I love the theme of the DFA, but according to my regular GM, the class doesn't qualify for meta-breathe feats due to the line from the Draconomicon, page 66, "have to have a breath weapon whose time between breaths is expressed in rounds," or something like that.

The only breath feat that the dragonfire adept had was entangling exhalation. He broke most battles wide open. He was also our party face and easily breaks diplomacy more than a bard.

Metabreath feats are overrated.

[carrdrivesyou]

So what do you think of this build?? Human-Dragonborn Copper Dragon Shaman 20

Chaotic Good
STR. 15
DEX. 10
CON. 24
INT. 12
WIS. 10
CHA. 16
HP: 20d10 + 140
AC: 33 T10 FF33
(+3 Nat. +13 Armor, +7 Shield) +2 Dodge vs. Dragon-type

FORT. +19 (7CON + 12C)
RFLX. +6 (0DEX + 6C)
WILL. +19 (0WIS + 12C + 7CON)
BAB +15/10/5
INIT. +0

Proficiencies:
Simple Weapons, Medium Armor and Shields (No Tower)

Languages:
Common, Draconic, +1

Feats:
HB: Entangling Exhalation
1st: Clinging Breath
CB2: Skill Focus - Hide
3rd: Endurance
6th: Imperious Command
CB8: Skill Focus - Bluff
9th: Steadfast Determination
12th: Heighten Breath
15th: Maximize Breath
CB16: Skill Focus - Jump
18th: Shape Breath
Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered (-2 Skill Points)

[Rizban]

The thing with dragon shaman is that your breath weapon is almost always going to be once per encounter, maybe twice with a good roll. You're primarily going to be a melee character with lots of purely passive abilities and the occasional breath attack. In any, dragon shaman feels very much like a typical fighter with a minor trick.

I also suggest looking at Dragonfire Adept, which plays more like a warlock with a breath weapon instead of eldritch blast. With a feat, you can even pick up a draconic aura from the dragon shaman list.

[J-H]

Player's Handbook pg. 176


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v296/Jopustopin/Breathh_zpsbvitztgd.png



The only breath feat that the dragonfire adept had was entangling exhalation. He broke most battles wide open. He was also our party face and easily breaks diplomacy more than a bard.

Metabreath feats are overrated.

Thank you. I'm linking to this post for two of my games. I have a DFA in one and a Dragon Shaman in the other, and I don't think either of them knew this any more than I did.