[3.5] Any way around an Elf's immunity to sleep?

[KillianHawkeye]

Hey, I'm just wondering what ways there are to render an elf unconscious. I know magical sleep effects don't work. Does drow knock-out poison work on elves? (EDIT: yes!) Are there any other good alternatives?

What I'm not looking for are things such as:
- Reducing one of their mental ability scores to zero
- Beating them unconscious with nonlethal damage

For my purposes, it needs to be something where the character wakes up with no idea what happened, something subtle such as magic or poison. Ideally something without a Save or with a Save that a 10th level party can't trivially pass. Bonus points for anything that lasts at least a couple of hours. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Sagetim]

Subdual damage. Just deal enough to get past their current hp and then keep beating on them for a while to keep them unconscious longer. Healing subdual damage naturally happens every, what, 5 minutes? So they'll get con mod + level back in subdual every 5 minutes. Plan around that if you know their stats well enough and beat them for a few hundred more subdual damage to keep them down longer.

Drow Knockout poison would work because it is a poison. Just because it's effect is sleep doesn't mean that it's a magical sleep effect, which is what elves are immune to as far as I know.

[Rerednaw]

Shivering Touch. Hold spells. Command (for 1 round and foes ready to wallop the elf after he gets up from prone.) Color Spray. Web + Stinking Cloud.

Or as mentioned non lethal does the trick.

[RedMage125]

Subdual damage. Just deal enough to get past their current hp and then keep beating on them for a while to keep them unconscious longer. Healing subdual damage naturally happens every, what, 5 minutes? So they'll get con mod + level back in subdual every 5 minutes. Plan around that if you know their stats well enough and beat them for a few hundred more subdual damage to keep them down longer.

Drow Knockout poison would work because it is a poison. Just because it's effect is sleep doesn't mean that it's a magical sleep effect, which is what elves are immune to as far as I know.

Drow Knockout poison inflicts unconsciousness, not sleep. And elves are not immune to that.

[Inevitability]

Shivering Touch. Hold spells. Command (for 1 round and foes ready to wallop the elf after he gets up from prone.) Color Spray. Web + Stinking Cloud.

Shivering Touch and Hold only render the elf immobile, not unconscious. Command doesn't even do that, it just makes them lie down. Stinking Cloud doesn't induce unconsciousness either.

[KillianHawkeye]

Subdual damage. Just deal enough to get past their current hp and then keep beating on them for a while to keep them unconscious longer. Healing subdual damage naturally happens every, what, 5 minutes? So they'll get con mod + level back in subdual every 5 minutes. Plan around that if you know their stats well enough and beat them for a few hundred more subdual damage to keep them down longer.

Drow Knockout poison would work because it is a poison. Just because it's effect is sleep doesn't mean that it's a magical sleep effect, which is what elves are immune to as far as I know.

Sorry, I should have said that beating them into submission was also not what I'm looking for.

By the way, nonlethal damage heals at a rate of level per hour, not per five minutes and not based on your Con modifier.


------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the confirmation on drow poison, Sage and RedMage. That's one option at least. I'm really hoping the rule encyclopedia people can find me a few other options, though! Ideally something without a Save or with a Save that a 10th level party can't trivially pass.

[Vizzerdrix]

A boot to the head.

[KillianHawkeye]

A boot to the head.

Regardless of the method you're using to apply loads of nonlethal damage, that's still not what I'm after. :smallannoyed:

I've edited the original post to be more explicit about what I'm trying for.

[Vizzerdrix]

Regardless of the method you're using to apply loads of nonlethal damage, that's still not what I'm after.

Non lethal? No no no. The best way is to kill the elf. It is just an elf after all.

[Doctor Awkward]

For my purposes, it needs to be something where the character wakes up with no idea what happened, something subtle such as magic or poison. </snip>

Well there are any number of magical effects or poisons you could employ. The DMG has Drow knockout poison, and the Oil of Tagget. You can have an NPC cast an Illusionary Terrain spell before the players approach and make camp in the area at night. Then when they wake up they will be somewhere completely different.

You can also just fiat a homebrew spell-- the results of a particular wizard's independent research or something-- if it's something you are never letting the players have access to.


...Ideally something without a Save or with a Save that a 10th level party can't trivially pass. Bonus points for anything that lasts at least a couple of hours. Thanks! :smallsmile:

Oh...

Oohhhhh....

Just as some friendly advice, it's almost never a good idea to take away your player's agency, especially if the plot demands it. It would only color their perception of your game. if you do it once, there's a chance that they'll start to assume that they don't have any free will, and that you will put them where you want them to be regardless of any actions they take.

[Lazymancer]

For my purposes, it needs to be something where the character wakes up with no idea what happened, something subtle such as magic or poison. Ideally something without a Save or with a Save that a 10th level party can't trivially pass. Bonus points for anything that lasts at least a couple of hours. Thanks! :smallsmile:
Modify Memory. Or Mindrape (BoVD).



... there's a chance that they'll start to assume that they don't have any free will, and that you will put them where you want them to be regardless of any actions they take.
You surely meant "notice", not "assume".

[Graysire]

Doesn't Breath of Life bring someone back to life without penalty? Kill them, Breath them, kill them, repeat, every round, use a mobile trap cart of some kind if wanted, should be interesting

Renewable Death-Life is the future of kidnapping!


EDIT: Though from the sounds of it, not what you want

[Thurbane]

Curse of the Putrid Husk spell (BoVD p.89); Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3.

If they fail a save, dazed for 1 round then unconscious for 1d10 minutes.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just as some friendly advice, it's almost never a good idea to take away your player's agency, especially if the plot demands it. It would only color their perception of your game. if you do it once, there's a chance that they'll start to assume that they don't have any free will, and that you will put them where you want them to be regardless of any actions they take.

Thanks for the advice, but I know my relationship with my players better than you do. :smallwink:


Curse of the Putrid Husk spell (BoVD p.89); Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3.

If they fail a save, dazed for 1 round then unconscious for 1d10 minutes.

This is perfect! Also, really creepy. Thanks, Thurbane!

[Godskook]

Thanks for the advice, but I know my relationship with my players better than you do. :smallwink:

This comes off exceedingly flippant and dismissive. Tonymitsu was neither saying nor implying that that he knew your relationships with your players at -all-, nor did what he said require such knowledge to be a valid piece of advice. On top of that, what he said is a pretty fair point.

[Thurbane]

I think KillianHawkeye has a point though - the comment implied that the plot he had planned was in some way bad or wrong, to which he replied.

As a DM, I get a little annoyed when people try to tell me some plot arc I have planned is a bad idea because it takes away player "agency" (oh how I despise that term - it seems to often be used as a catch cry for player entitlement).

Yes, taking away control of a player's character for an extended period is usually a bad idea. But people often chime in without knowing the myriad of other relevant details in play at that particular table.

Having said that, I also feel that there was no malice intended with Tonymitsu's original comment - but KillianHawkeye certainly has a right of reply.

[Godskook]

the comment implied that the plot he had planned was in some way bad or wrong

In as much as Tonymitsu is *RIGHT*, please explain to me how this is a bad thing to be gently warning DMs(as Tonymitsu did) of things they're planning to do that are actually bad or wrong in some way. Or more accurately, that they're actually risky and can easily backfire.

In as much as Tonymitsu is *WRONG*, KillianHawkeye's response would've been better served, in this format, with actually pointing out said assumed flaws in Tonymitsu's statement, as opposed to "contradicting it" with an irrelevant piece of information.

[KillianHawkeye]

In as much as Tonymitsu is *RIGHT*, please explain to me how this is a bad thing to be gently warning DMs(as Tonymitsu did) of things they're planning to do that are actually bad or wrong in some way. Or more accurately, that they're actually risky and can easily backfire.

In as much as Tonymitsu is *WRONG*, KillianHawkeye's response would've been better served, in this format, with actually pointing out said assumed flaws in Tonymitsu's statement, as opposed to "contradicting it" with an irrelevant piece of information.

In as much as Tonymitsu's comment was irrelevant both to my question that I made this thread for AND to the reasons I am asking about it, I didn't feel like he deserved more of a response than he got. And you don't need any more explanation than that. I'm a big boy and I know what I'm doing, and I know how much my players are willing to trust me.

This isn't an advice thread. I didn't ask anyone to give me DMing 101. My response wasn't flippant, but it was dismissive. I'm honestly not sure what kind of response would have made you happy if you didn't like the way I politely thanked the person and told them their advice wasn't needed. Likewise, your opinion on how I handle unnecessary advice is not needed.

Once again, thanks to Thurbane for actually getting it. :smallsigh:

I'm going to suggest that unless anybody has any more ideas for ways to nonviolently render an elf unconscious, it's probably better to stop posting in this thread rather than continuing to waste time with unfounded assumptions.

[Gildedragon]

Sleepsmoke

Suggestion to try out the sleep thing

[Psyren]

I know you were against the nonlethal route that seems to have been specific to "beating them unconscious." There are more subtle ways of delivering nonlethal, like the "Whelm" and "Mass Whelm" spells from PHB2. If you silence these and pile on enough metamagic - particularly if the elf/party is wounded from a previous encounter - you should be able to knock him/them all out peacefully without them realizing something even happened.

[KillianHawkeye]

Sleepsmoke

Suggestion to try out the sleep thing

That sort of sounds like something that wouldn't work on an elf, but I'm interested. Where is it from?


There are more subtle ways of delivering nonlethal, like the "Whelm" and "Mass Whelm" spells from PHB2. If you silence these and pile on enough metamagic - particularly if the elf/party is wounded from a previous encounter - you should be able to knock him/them all out peacefully without them realizing something even happened.

Oh right, I forgot about those spells! I'll take a look at them. Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Gildedragon]

Sleepsmoke is from City of Splendors
It is an inhaled unconsciousness poison

As to using the suggestion spell: it ought work just fine. Elves aren't incapable of sleep, just don't need it and spells can't knock them out. Suggestion doesn't make them sleep, it makes them want to make themselves sleep