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Stam
2007-07-30, 01:17 PM
I'm busy putting together an Invisible Blade concept, but I have a rather set goal in mind.

The character in question is (will be) a thief. More a second-storey man than a pickpocket, although he'll have both kind of skills.

Basic history: Grown up as a street rat (Rogue level first), taken in by an monastic-style orphanage (one level of monk for Wis-to-AC), then stayed on the straight-and-narrow for a bit (one swashbuckler level for Weapon Finesse) before falling back into old habits (3 more rogue levels) and preferring an easily-concealed method of defense and attack (IB level).

The IB PrC's been houseruled a bit, so it only requires the feats Weapon Finesse and Focus (dagger type) instead of the PBS/Far Shot useless combo.

This PC is to be a halfling, is being built at 6th-level, with 9,750 GP to spend...and I'm wondering if people have suggestions or advice given what I've posted above? My basic intent is to try and get a build that allows me to dish out a decent amount of damage, yet also have a reasonable unarmored AC, specifically (and that is why I added the monk level).

Books available are any published FR 3.5 material (including Dragon Mag stuff that is FR-specific), plus Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine, plus Frostburn, Sandstorm and Cityscape. Setting is Waterdeep.

Iku Rex
2007-07-30, 01:45 PM
Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor, Int-to-AC) would be a good feat if the DM lets it stack with the AC bonus from invisible blade. Maybe the monks running the orphanage took notice of your character's intelligence and gave him special training?

With a level of wizard you'd be able to cast shield and mage armor on top of that, for a very respectable AC.

Proven_Paradox
2007-07-30, 02:09 PM
What kind of ability scores are you looking at? If you can have a few points left over after the almighty dexterity and intelligence, consider sinking a level into monk or ninja (Complete Adventurer), to get wisdom to AC. If I recall correctly, this will give you dexterity, wisdom, AND intelligence to your AC. Your unarmored AC would be pretty good, and you'd have a nigh unbeatable touch AC. Of those two options, monk would probably be better, as being able to just bust out with a punch instead of weapons is a useful utility for a rogue. You lose a little bit of sneak attack, but the AC boost is nice. If you're not lawful, ninja would be better, and occasionally you'd still get mileage out of sudden strike, plus more skill points. From there, split your money between natural armor and deflection, and you'd be looking pretty good on both AC and damage. As you get more gold to work with, you could spread the gold out between items that increase wisdom, intelligence, and dexterity to boost it even more.

tannish2
2007-07-30, 02:10 PM
or use magic device and a wand

Stam
2007-07-30, 02:25 PM
What kind of ability scores are you looking at? If you can have a few points left over after the almighty dexterity and intelligence, consider sinking a level into monk or ninja (Complete Adventurer), to get wisdom to AC.

I already covered the Monk part in my description, up there. I want one level of Monk...

Proposed stats (at 1st-level buy-in, and after halfling racial adjustments) are on a 32-point buy:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha
8/17/12/14/15/12.

Putting the 4th-level point into Dex, and purchasing a Periapt of Wis +1, gives me a base AC of 18 (including Size bonus) before equipment.

I'm unsure if Carmentine monk would stack, but if it did, that would be nifty indeed. I'll have to ask.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 02:57 PM
WotC nerfed Invisible Blade in the errata. They made it so that their free action Feint can only be used once per round. Thus your opponent is only denied their Dex bonus to the first attack you make each round.

Luckily, there's a fix in the recently published Drow of the Underdark: DotU has a feat called Surprising Riposte, which states, "If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flatfooted for 1 round or until its next turn." Problem solved, though you have to waste a feat to do it.

Also, be mindful that bonuses of the same type and source never stack. Thus, a Monk's Wis bonus to AC does not stack with a Swordsage's Wis bonus to AC. A Paladin's bonus to all Saves does not stack with a Crusader's bonus to Will Saves. Enlarge Person does not stack with Expansion (thanks to magical/psionic transparency). And an Invisible Blade's Int bonus to AC does not stack with a Duelist's bonus to AC.

I'm not sure if a Carmandine Monk's ability would stack - I'd have to read the particular feat. But you may be better off trying to get multiple bonuses from different sources.

Perhaps Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 11/Invisible Blade 5. With the Expanded Knowledge feat, you can get access to Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm), which has an AC bonus that scales with your manifester levels. You'll have a ton of Skills, a slew of sneaky and telepathic special abilities, and the uber Mind Cripple special ability, which deals 2 points of Int damage (no Save) every time you Sneak Attack. This is the best Sneak Attack ability in the game. Many monsters have piss poor Int, and reducing an enemy to 0 Int makes them comatose. And if an enemy does have high Int, its usually because they depend on it to cast spells. Hit them a couple of times, and they can't cast their upper level spells any more. Heck, it even stops Trip builds, since Combat Expertise requires 13 Int.

Personally, I wouldn't even bother with the Invisible Blade levels, since it won't progress your manifester levels, and its easy to flank or deny your opponent their Dex bonus via a variety of means.

Zincorium
2007-07-30, 03:43 PM
Also, be mindful that bonuses of the same type and source never stack. Thus, a Monk's Wis bonus to AC does not stack with a Swordsage's Wis bonus to AC. A Paladin's bonus to all Saves does not stack with a Crusader's bonus to Will Saves. Enlarge Person does not stack with Expansion (thanks to magical/psionic transparency). And an Invisible Blade's Int bonus to AC does not stack with a Duelist's bonus to AC.

I'm not sure if a Carmandine Monk's ability would stack - I'd have to read the particular feat. But you may be better off trying to get multiple bonuses from different sources.


Since the abilities are both unnamed bonuses with different names, and thus different sources, they'd stack unless specified otherwise. Carmendine monk doesn't change the name or type of bonuses that the monk gets, only the ability that it's based off of.

I think you're taking an overly broad stance on what constitutes the same 'source'. Abilities with the same name are obviously the same source, and I'm with you that they don't stack, but ones with different names usually do. Your examples with the crusader and expansion abilities specifically state that they don't stack with the other listed abilities, which presumably means they are exceptions rather than the rule. The swordsage ability and the monk ability have exactly the same name, so of course they don't stack.

Technically, since Canny Defense (duelist ability), Unfettered defense (Invisible blade), AC bonus (monk/swordsage), and Bladesong Style (Bladesinger) all have different names and come from different classes, they are different sources and unless specified otherwise (say, in errata) would all stack. Whether they do this in your game is obviously up to the DM, but it would simply be DM fiat rather than a supported position.

Stam
2007-07-30, 03:54 PM
Actually...I believe that while the Monk AC bonus is typeless, the Unfettered Defense is - AFAIK - added as a dodge bonus. Dodge bonuses typically stack with everything else, including other dodge bonuses.

The Duelist ability is typeless, too. Unsure of the Bladesong Style.

Iku Rex
2007-07-30, 04:13 PM
I had a closer look at the wording and I'd say that unfortunately Carmendine Monk won't stack with unfettered defense by the RAW. Both basically grant an Int bonus to AC. "[T]he monk adds her [Intelligence] bonus (if any) to her AC...", "[the invisible blade] ... adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per invisible blade class level to his Armor Class" .

Either way, the reason I suggested asking the DM is that the unofficial (3.0) Sage ruling (on Duelist/Bladesinger) was that bonuses from the same ability score don't stack even if they have different names.

Stam
2007-07-30, 09:17 PM
I don't know how similar they really are.

Monk bonus to AC is never lost unless you're immobilized (even if it's an Int- or Cha-based monk AC bonus).

Unfettered Defense, Canny Defense, and Bladesong Style are all lost when you lose your Dex bonus.

Anyway, I've put that one in with the DMs, resolution pending.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-30, 09:31 PM
WotC nerfed Invisible Blade in the errata. They made it so that their free action Feint can only be used once per round. Thus your opponent is only denied their Dex bonus to the first attack you make each round.

Luckily, there's a fix in the recently published Drow of the Underdark: DotU has a feat called Surprising Riposte, which states, "If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flatfooted for 1 round or until its next turn." Problem solved, though you have to waste a feat to do it.

Person Man, is that flat-footed for everyone or just you? Depending on the text it doesn't sound like a waste with the right allies.

DiscipleofBob
2007-07-30, 09:41 PM
You might consider Ninja instead of Monk.

You still get the wisdom bonus to AC, but you also get a bonus to your will saves and Ghost Step. Going invisible at will a certain number of times per day is awesome for any rogue-type character, and being trained to be an assassin does make a little more sense IMO than being taken in by a monastic order for one level. But that's just my opinion.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 10:30 PM
Person Man, is that flat-footed for everyone or just you? Depending on the text it doesn't sound like a waste with the right allies.

"If you deal damage to an opponent in the same round that you successfully feinted against it, it becomes flatfooted for 1 round or until its next turn."

Based on the text of the feat, I believe that the enemy is flatfooted for everyone.


Re: Do multiple bonuses to AC from Int stack?

Having re-read the abilities and the "Does it Stack" articles on the WotC website, I think Zincorium may be correct. As long as the bonuses are typeless and have different names, they stack. The name of the ability or spell that provides an effect is the source, not the statistic which determines the modifier. But I'm certainly don't tout myself as a rules expert, so I'd talk to your DM about it.

Draz74
2007-07-30, 10:45 PM
But I'm certainly don't tout myself as a rules expert, so I'd talk to your DM about it.

Meh ... no offense to Lord_Sylvanos, Yuki, or anyone else, but they're only human, and from what I've seen the "touted rules experts" aren't much more reliable than the other Forum regulars. :smallwink:

Fortunately, one of the nice things about this forum is that they tend to admit when they're wrong nicely.

So don't be shy to offer rules ... rulings.

TSGames
2007-07-30, 11:44 PM
Since the abilities are both unnamed bonuses with different names, and thus different sources, they'd stack unless specified otherwise.


I'm not much of a rules lawyer, but this logic seems flawed. The monk and swordsage abilities each have different names, but come from WIS, the Carmendine monk and any other ability that grant INT to AC draw from INT, thus having the same source and do not stack. To claim that different names means they have different sources is rather specious logic and I see no precedent to support it.

They may stack for another reason, but the claim as stated is just silly.

Stam
2007-07-31, 12:37 AM
Still re: stacking...

Not only are they named differently, they operate differently.

Monk AC is a completely reflexive thing - applies even when flatfooted, regardless of source. Standard Wis, or feat-converted Cha or Int...it still applies the same. Regardless of awareness to the threat or not (flatfooted or not), the body reacts accordingly.

Any other form of Int-based, unarmored AC bonus, however, is an active-defense mode only that requires you to be aware of the threat (not flatfooted). Canny Defense, Unfettered Defense, and Bladesong Style...they all have this in common.

So I can see Canny Defense not stacking with Unfettered Defense (albeit with the reasonable ability that it could add one extra possible point to the total number of Int-points that could be added...3 levels of Duelist and 1 of Invisible Blade being allowed to add 4 points of Int to his AC). I can see reasons that a Carmentine Monk's Int-to-AC should still allow Canny Defense or Unfettered Defense.

TSGames
2007-07-31, 01:45 AM
Still re: stacking...

Not only are they named differently, they operate differently.


The have the same source so it is irrelevant. I am going to need to see you RAW support for your claim, here is mine page 313 of the player handbook

stack: Combine for a cumulative effect. In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors(or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as a spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best or worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. Spell effects that do not overlap may overlap, coexist independently, or render one another irrelevant, depending on their exact effects.
*emphasis added
If you are going to claim via RAW that they stack and that you're not merely assuming they do, then I want to see the support for your claim.

Stam
2007-07-31, 01:50 AM
Someone else posted this already, so I'm merely repeating what's already been posted.

From Rules of the Game: Does It Stack? (part 4) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a):

Unnamed Bonuses
A bonus that doesn't have a name stacks with anything except itself. This is always true, but it's sometimes hard to remember. For example, many feats provide unnamed bonuses, so don't panic when you read a feat description and it provides a bonus without a name.

What is your support for assuming these "are from the same source"? This is not from the same spell, spell effect, or feat, nor from two classes offering an identical AC bonus.

They're named differently, they operate differently, they come from different classes - and in the case of the Monk AC, it's even supposed to have a different source - it's just been modified via a feat to use a different attribute.

TSGames
2007-07-31, 01:53 AM
Someone else posted this already, so I'm merely repeating what's already been posted.

From Rules of the Game: Does It Stack? (part 4) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040210a):


What is your support for assuming these "are from the same source"? There is no FAQ to cover this.
This is contradicted by RAW, see above post.


Dictionary.com has this definition of source:
1. any thing or place from which something comes, arises, or is obtained; origin: Which foods are sources of calcium?

The bonus comes from the ability score, and is therefore the same source.

Stam
2007-07-31, 01:55 AM
See edited post above.

(Plus, I already pointed out that these are non-similar in the way they function. I'm not going to quote the text from those books, as it's non-OLG. Carmentine Monk is a feat which can be found in Champions of Valor, and Invisible Blade's Unfettered Defense ability can be found in Complete Warrior.)

TSGames
2007-07-31, 02:01 AM
See edited post above.

(Plus, I already pointed out that these are non-similar in the way they function. I'm not going to quote the text from those books, as it's non-OLG. Carmentine Monk is a feat which can be found in Champions of Valor, and Invisible Blade's Unfettered Defense ability can be found in Complete Warrior.)

I have read them, and they still have the same source see above post.

Stam
2007-07-31, 02:10 AM
If your approach is that narrow-minded, I'd say yes, you'd be right.

Fortunately, most DMs I know tend to take the rules with a little bit of the salt of common sense.

The bonus is untyped. Untyped bonuses stack, so long as you're not trying to stack them on top of themselves (rage twice, cast the same spell twice). (And if RAW trumps FAQ and Sage clarifications, Improved Natural Attack would still not work with Unarmed Strike.) These AC bonuses are not identical or the same by any stretch of either word, although both stem from the same attribute.

Therefore. The bonuses are not from the same source.

Therefore. They stack.

TSGames
2007-07-31, 08:29 AM
If your approach is that narrow-minded, I'd say yes, you'd be right.

Fortunately, most DMs I know tend to take the rules with a little bit of the salt of common sense.

No DM with any common sense would agreed to let multiple AC bonuses drawn from INT stack.



The bonus is untyped. Untyped bonuses stack, so long as you're not trying to stack them on top of themselves (rage twice, cast the same spell twice). (And if RAW trumps FAQ and Sage clarifications, Improved Natural Attack would still not work with Unarmed Strike.) These AC bonuses are not identical or the same by any stretch of either word, although both stem from the same attribute.

Therefore. The bonuses are not from the same source.

Therefore. They stack.

The requirements for stacking are A)that they come from different sources. Let's looks at this one first. The feat "Carmendine Monk" references the PHB monk class which states:

AC Bonus (Ex): A monk is highly trained at dodging blows, and she has a sixth sense that lets her avoid even unanticipated attacks. When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

It says that WIS is where the bonus is drawn from, aka the source. Now, the feat "Carmendine Monk" replaces that with INT. Therefore it no longer stacks with other INT based bonuses to AC.

Now, you can continue to argue your point senselessly, but all evidence points against your blatant misinterpretation of the rules. Hopefully your DM does have common sense and is not nearly gullible enough to allow such cheese. There's nothing more to say. Untyped bonuses do not stack if they are from the same source unless it specifically is stated that they do.

Stam
2007-07-31, 08:47 AM
Dependant on the same ability =! (does not equal) same source.

The source of the Monk AC bonus is a class ability.
The source of the second AC bonus is a different class ability that functions in a very different way.

I fully agree that Canny Defense (Duelist), Unfettered Defense (Invisible Blade) and Bladesong Style all should not stack - i.e. that you cannot add the same point of Int mod twice. If you have four levels in each of them, and an Int bonus of +4, you can add that only once to your AC. These are perfect examples of similar untyped bonuses that should not stack, since they all operate in exactly the same way.
(I believe a good case could be made for them to add to each other - i.e., two levels of Duelist and two of Invisible Blade being allowed to add a total of 4 points of Int to AC, assuming that the PC had those points.)

However, Monk AC and Canny Defense? They're not similar bonuses, and you're out of your gourd if you say that they are. Regardless of which ability mod they hinge on, they are non-similar abilities.

The source here is not the ability mod. It's the class ability. And the class abilities are not similar.

Exil3dbyrd
2007-07-31, 08:53 AM
I think the arguement you are having is mostly about what the souce of the AC bonus is.

Stam is argueing that the source of the bonus is from the class/feat not the ability score, and that makes sense as you need the class/feat to make the ability score relevant.

DnDestruction is arguing that the source of the bonus is from the ability score not the class/feat, and that makes sense as it what directly influences the AC bonus.

As a DM i would allow them to stack, but the people i DM with aren't really powergamers and it wouldn't unbalance the level of power in a significant way.

Edit: Ninja'd

Stam
2007-07-31, 09:00 AM
Gotcha! First-time ninja for me :smallbiggrin:

(Edit: Still, nice summary.)

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 09:24 AM
You're both wrong.

The Monk's Wis bonus to AC applies only when they are unarmored.

The Swordsage's Wis bonus to AC applies only when they are wearing light armor.

Thus, it is physically impossible to apply both bonuses to the same character, because it is impossible to simultaneously wear no armor and light armor at the same time.

selfcritical
2007-07-31, 09:31 AM
You're both wrong.

The Monk's Wis bonus to AC applies only when they are unarmored.

The Swordsage's Wis bonus to AC applies only when they are wearing light armor.

Thus, it is physically impossible to apply both bonuses to the same character, because it is impossible to simultaneously wear no armor and light armor at the same time.

The swordsage one works in light OR no armor.

Artemician
2007-07-31, 09:37 AM
The swordsage one works in light OR no armor.

Technically.. no.

By RAW, the Swordsage's AC bonus ability only applies when he is wearing light armour. It doesn't work when he's wearing any other kind of armour, including no armour.

Most people houserule that it works in no armour as well, but by RAW, it doesn't. probably was a typo or something.

selfcritical
2007-07-31, 10:07 AM
Technically.. no.

By RAW, the Swordsage's AC bonus ability only applies when he is wearing light armour. It doesn't work when he's wearing any other kind of armour, including no armour.

Most people houserule that it works in no armour as well, but by RAW, it doesn't. probably was a typo or something.

The book contains a completely unarmored variant anyway, so kinda moot point

selfcritical
2007-07-31, 10:29 AM
I generally think dropping monk from the build for "monk-ish" swordsage, and talking the dm into letting carmadine monk apply to that would be better for the build, as you'd get Shadow hand manuvers.

Stam
2007-07-31, 10:46 AM
...okay. People, before posting suggestions, please actually read the books available and proposed build.

Suggesting Monk when I've already added it, or suggesting ToB when it's not on the allowed list, are not likely to help.

Person_Man
2007-07-31, 10:56 AM
The book contains a completely unarmored variant anyway, so kinda moot point

Incorrect.

The unarmed combat variant Swordsage trades your armor proficiency in exchange for Monk unarmed damage progression. It in no way mentions a change to the light armor restriction for the Wis bonus to AC.

Therefore a unarmed variant Swordsage that wants its Wis bonus to AC must either invest a feat in light armor proficiency, or it must wear a light armor with no armor check penalty (like a mithral chain shirt).


Nonproficient with Armor Worn: A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

Thus, if there is no armor check penalty, there is no penalty for wearing the armor while non-proficient.

It may not make much sense, but that's how the rules are written.

Stam
2007-07-31, 03:59 PM
Bump to get this back on-topic.

The DM approved the stacking of Carmentine Monk and Unfettered Defense.

So my current build looks like this:

Stats:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha (after racial adjustments and +1 into Dex @ 4th-level)
8/18/12/16/12/12

Class progression:
Rogue1
Monk1
Swashbuckler1
Rogue2,3
Invisible Blade1

Feats:
Combat Expertise/Improved Feint at 1st-level (Strongheart Hin)
Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist from Monk
Weapon Focus (dagger) at 3rd
Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler
Carmentine Monk at 6th.

Total gains...
Flurry ability, at d4 unarmed damage.
Two stunning uses, using Int instead of Wis for DC.
Move rate of 30' a round, thanks to Carmentine Monk's Thesis notes.
2d6 regular sneak, +1d6 dagger sneak.
AC of 19 before items, with an identical touch AC.
Piles of skillpoints.
BAB of +4, Base saves of +5/+7/+3


Any thoughts on stuff I should change out, there?

selfcritical
2007-07-31, 04:37 PM
Bump to get this back on-topic.

The DM approved the stacking of Carmentine Monk and Unfettered Defense.

So my current build looks like this:

Stats:
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha (after racial adjustments and +1 into Dex @ 4th-level)
8/18/12/16/12/12

Class progression:
Rogue1
Monk1
Swashbuckler1
Rogue2,3
Invisible Blade1

Feats:
Combat Expertise/Improved Feint at 1st-level (Strongheart Hin)
Imp. Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist from Monk
Weapon Focus (dagger) at 3rd
Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler
Carmentine Monk at 6th.

Total gains...
Flurry ability, at d4 unarmed damage.
Two stunning uses, using Int instead of Wis for DC.
Move rate of 30' a round, thanks to Carmentine Monk's Thesis notes.
2d6 regular sneak, +1d6 dagger sneak.
AC of 19 before items, with an identical touch AC.
Piles of skillpoints.
BAB of +4, Base saves of +5/+7/+3


Any thoughts on stuff I should change out, there?

See if you can get your DM to approve fractional BAB and saves. It makes a LOT of sense, and will make a multiclassing heavy character like yours have saves and BAB more in line with the party.

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 05:20 PM
You can't flurry with a dagger.

One level of monk seems like a huge waste. It means an XP penalty if you want three levels of swashbuckler and you do want three levels of swashbuckler eventually. If you expect to keep the character a while you should consider postponing taking invisible blade one level so you can get another level of monk. With two levels of monk you could use your thesis notes for +1 AC. You'd get Deflect Arrows (or Combat Reflexes) out of it as well. Get the Spell Reflection alternate class feature from CMag - you get Evasion from rogue anyway.

If your DM is lenient he may let you use a variant monk fighting style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) from Unearthed Arcana. With a Passive Way monk you'd get Combat Expertise as a bonus feat instead of Stunning Fist. That way you can squeeze in the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and still be set for Surprising Riposte. (I assume Surprising Riposte is why you've taken the otherwise almost useless Improved Feint feat.)

Build to level 14 (no variant):
Rogue 1/Monk 2/Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 2/Invisible Blade 5/Swashbuckler 2/Rogue 1

Feats (excluding monk feats): 1,1,3,4,6,9,12
Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Carmendine Monk (CoV), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Surprising Riposte (DotU), Daring Outlaw (CSco)

Stam
2007-07-31, 05:30 PM
Can people please stop suggesting things from books that are not on the list I can use?

CMag is not on the list.
CScou is not on the list.
DotU is not on the list - it is, apparently, Core and not FR.

Noted on the Monk levels - I'd seen that as a problem, just hadn't thought of a way to do anything about it. I also know you can't flurry with daggers - that flurry was for unarmed attacks (and unarmed damage rather than d3 daggers). It's still a point for the character, being able to switch to bludgeoning without a hitch or deal NLD without a sap.

I took Improved Feint because at low levels it's the best, near-undeniable way to get sneak attack dice. At higher levels, when I get the ability to feint as a free action, it'll allow me to gain two feinted attacks in a second round.

Iku Rex
2007-07-31, 05:51 PM
Ah. Sorry - I usually keep track of the books that can be used, but I got you confused with someone else.

Good point about getting two feints.

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-31, 06:52 PM
I'd drop the Wisdom to 10 and boost the Strength to 12 so that after racial you're not sucking a penalty to damage. IF you can get a ToB feat and such in, there's a feat allowing you to add Dex to damage. Might want to look into that.

Edit: From the earlier arguments, I back Stam. Ability Score =/= Source. The class feature ALLOWING another bonus from the ability score = source. Unnamed bonuses stack, they stack. Tah dah.

Starbuck_II
2007-07-31, 07:14 PM
I'm busy putting together an Invisible Blade concept, but I have a rather set goal in mind.

The character in question is (will be) a thief. More a second-storey man than a pickpocket, although he'll have both kind of skills.

Basic history: Grown up as a street rat (Rogue level first), taken in by an monastic-style orphanage (one level of monk for Wis-to-AC), then stayed on the straight-and-narrow for a bit (one swashbuckler level for Weapon Finesse) before falling back into old habits (3 more rogue levels) and preferring an easily-concealed method of defense and attack (IB level).

The IB PrC's been houseruled a bit, so it only requires the feats Weapon Finesse and Focus (dagger type) instead of the PBS/Far Shot useless combo.

This PC is to be a halfling, is being built at 6th-level, with 9,750 GP to spend...and I'm wondering if people have suggestions or advice given what I've posted above? My basic intent is to try and get a build that allows me to dish out a decent amount of damage, yet also have a reasonable unarmored AC, specifically (and that is why I added the monk level).

Books available are any published FR 3.5 material (including Dragon Mag stuff that is FR-specific), plus Complete Warrior, Adventurer, Arcane and Divine, plus Frostburn, Sandstorm and Cityscape. Setting is Waterdeep.

Wait, at level 6 you get 13 K not 9k... DM just decided to change the amount? Level 5 was 9, 000. At least my DMG says so.

I guess DM has his/her reasons.

I am glad that then changed the requirements of Prc.

I wouldn't go swashbuckler due to Favored class: unless you are only going 1 dips in both of those classes, you'd suffer an expereince penalty.

If you do go Swashbuckler: you should use Kukri (they are a type of daggers as well as punching daggers) that have 18-20 Crit range though only 1d4 damage like other daggers.

Stam
2007-07-31, 09:16 PM
Okay...

Revise stats - no Wis bonus, but no Str penalty.

Revise class build - two levels of monk, so that I can get Swash3 later on at some point. Has the benefit of kicking saves up, and giving me Deflect Arrows. (Fave monk feat - immunity to arrows.)

Revise feats: Take Carmendine Monk at 3rd, where it actually makes sense, and Weapon Focus (dagger) at 6th.

I'm unsure on the worth of kukris over daggers. Daggers can be thrown (Hin are good at that)...and who cares about the crit if it's on such a tiny damage type? Unless you're going to stack in a weapon enhancement ability that boosts damage on a crit only, I really don't see the benefit.

Tweekinator
2007-08-01, 02:24 PM
Okay...

Revise stats - no Wis bonus, but no Str penalty.

Revise class build - two levels of monk, so that I can get Swash3 later on at some point. Has the benefit of kicking saves up, and giving me Deflect Arrows. (Fave monk feat - immunity to arrows.)

Revise feats: Take Carmendine Monk at 3rd, where it actually makes sense, and Weapon Focus (dagger) at 6th.

I'm unsure on the worth of kukris over daggers. Daggers can be thrown (Hin are good at that)...and who cares about the crit if it's on such a tiny damage type? Unless you're going to stack in a weapon enhancement ability that boosts damage on a crit only, I really don't see the benefit.

If you no longer have a bonus to Wisdom, then why are you adding more monk levels? For a bonus to saves and an alignment restriction? Or is a single level of monk necessary for the Carmendine Monk feat? If it isn't, I'd just dump monk altogether and grab more swashbuckler to get Int to damage sooner.

Also, Deflect arrows doesn't seem that great for an invisible blade, especially if you are going to be using two daggers or kukris, since you need one hand to be empty and can only use it once per round.

Stam
2007-08-01, 03:52 PM
Since the core idea here is a completely unarmored build - and Invisible Blade can only add a max of +5 - I needed the Monk class to gain a decent unarmored AC.

Carmendine Monk just switches the Monk AC over to Int, which makes it easier from a MAD standpoint - all I need are two exceptional stats, with Cha as a third lower one.
It does require 1 level in Monk, yes. And an alignment straitjacket is only in order to *continue* as a monk...once you don't need to progress anymore, you can become an ex-monk with impunity :)
I'm adding a second level of Monk so that I can, at a later date, pick up the 3rd level of Swashbuckler without a multiclassing XP penalty. (Keeps my non-favored classes within one level of each other.)

As for the free hand needed...well, Two-Weapon Fighting is not high on my feat-priority list at present. So I don't know how often I'm going to be caught with my hands full ;)