Question on gestalt (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So a player of mine claims that using Gestalt and combining Wizard and a Wizard PrC can advance casting at CL by 2 even though there is a rule against advancing a class feature twice and having it go at the faster rate instead of added. We settled for asking in the playground. This is his argument over why it does work.
They're differentfeatures, similar to how Cleric casting and wizard casting are different features despite having the same name. Battle Dancer and Monk both provide AC Bonus, but the feature is different. And Fast Movement is both Monk and Barbarian, but they are different.Prestige classes that advance casting advance it as if you had gained another level of the class, It's meant to stack, like how most classes with Uncanny Dodge say that if you already have Uncanny Dodge, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge instead. If I somehow had Wizard and Wizard-but-with-a-different-name on the two sides, level 1 would try to give me 1st level wizard casting twice, which doesn't stack. With this, one gives me 5th level wizard casting and the other gives me 6th level wizard casting, which are not the same. If you had monk and unarmed swordsage, their unarmed progression is exactly the same and wouldn't stack. This isn't the same - it's 5th level then 6th level

Is he right or wrong about this? Is he right in RAW or RAI? Both? Neither?

[Gildedragon]

your player is wrong.
Gestalt levels aren't quite two classes, but a class that's as good as 2 classes fused together.
As such you could not get "advance X class's casting" twice.

[Waker]

So a player of mine claims that using Gestalt and combining Wizard and a Wizard PrC can advance casting at CL by 2 even though there is a rule against advancing a class feature twice and having it go at the faster rate instead of added. We settled for asking in the playground. This is his argument over why it does work.
They're differentfeatures, similar to how Cleric casting and wizard casting are different features despite having the same name. Battle Dancer and Monk both provide AC Bonus, but the feature is different. And Fast Movement is both Monk and Barbarian, but they are different.Prestige classes that advance casting advance it as if you had gained another level of the class, It's meant to stack, like how most classes with Uncanny Dodge say that if you already have Uncanny Dodge, you gain Improved Uncanny Dodge instead. If I somehow had Wizard and Wizard-but-with-a-different-name on the two sides, level 1 would try to give me 1st level wizard casting twice, which doesn't stack. With this, one gives me 5th level wizard casting and the other gives me 6th level wizard casting, which are not the same. If you had monk and unarmed swordsage, their unarmed progression is exactly the same and wouldn't stack. This isn't the same - it's 5th level then 6th level

Is he right or wrong about this? Is he right in RAW or RAI? Both? Neither?

He's wrong. The main point about him being wrong is the fact that PrCs advance spellcasting, they don't actually grant it. "...the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class" and "+1 level of existing class" are the typical text and table written on the subject. Notably they advance what you already have. The Fast Movement of the Barbarian and Monk stack because they are different despite the name, Barbarian is an untyped bonus while the Monk is an enhancement bonus. The Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge is specifically called out as stacking because its an exception.

[Karl Aegis]

This is the same guy that stacked a dragon sovereign archetype and a dragon psychosis on an undead creature, right? With like six epic feats and a taint score above 55? Yeah, optimization isn't cheating.

[flappeercraft]

Maybe





ok it is him.

[Karl Aegis]

Honestly, I would just keep playing. Admit to yourself you have a PC with several layers of homebrew on it, but finish your game. No use backing out now. When you're done you can start a new game with characters that follow the rules.

[Rebel7284]

Is he right or wrong about this? Is he right in RAW or RAI? Both? Neither?

The examples given are not great. I can see the argument for this if I squint hard enough, but it's not RAW and 100% not RAI.

If the player wants early spell access, there are some cheesy ways of doing it, this isn't one of them.

[flappeercraft]

Honestly, I would just keep playing. Admit to yourself you have a PC with several layers of homebrew on it, but finish your game. No use backing out now. When you're done you can start a new game with characters that follow the rules.

The problem is that the whole point of teh campaign is to see how ridiculous of a character you can and are willing to make FOLLOWING the rules with no infinite loops. he can still get early spell access with Kobold shenanigans for +3 CL or could change into a Gnome Cleric/Wizard Shadowcraft mage with Alternate source spell and Sanctum Spell to use a DMM Heightened Sanctum Silent Image Miracle to replicate any spell of up to 7th level, 8th if you also apply Sanctum to the spell being replicated so he can still get early casting and of more spell lists

[Gildedragon]

As a DM I'd encourage them to pick something else for their actual wizard side. Something that boosted their character concept.
Sorcerer might not be bad. They load up their most common spells onto the sorc and keep wizard for niche things.
Or Archivist.

[Xanyo]

Let me put this in context. If the is anything that is immune to it,the BBEG is. If I don't have at least 7th level spells, I can't do anything to him. He has SR of 70 minimum. He steals abilities from whatever creature he wants. Don't make me have to resort to Beholder Mage. Please. I've dubbed this campaign the gouda campaign. I'd love to play a more balanced character, but this is not the campaign for balance or even sanity.

[flappeercraft]

Why not play a gestalt Beholder mage/Ur Priest? That could g

[Karl Aegis]

Dude, seriously. Just wish for Arcane Thesis wands and put all the metamagic onto them. All the admixtures, all the empowers, all the maximize, all the everything. If it has health it will die. No actual reason to go through... putting a template for humanoids or monstrous humanoids only on a dragon.

[Xanyo]

It has hitpoints, but that won't kill it. The best I've got so far will immobilize him for 8 rounds. 8.

[flappeercraft]

8 rounds is a good amount of time to kill someone, but just a warning. If you don't kill him in those 8 rounds you're probably as good as dead.

[Karl Aegis]

If your opponent has a challenge rating more than six times your level you probably aren't playing Dungeons and Dragons anymore. Even an ancient prismatic dragon should go down in eight rounds to wand spam from one person. You have more than one character in your party. It sounds like this guy has more than fifteen thousand life putting him at a challenge rating above 90.

[flappeercraft]

Its a 21st level character......

[Xanyo]

I can repeat the 8 rounds for a long time, but I'm not sure that I can kill him even if he were asleep indefinitely, that's how powerful he is. I'm just gonna work on other ideas for now.

[Morphic tide]

Okay, three situations that cover the described thing and my view on their legality:

1. They have PRCs on one side trying to advance casting of the Wizard levels which qualified for the PRC on the other side. This is not legal because you can't qualify for a PRC on one side with what's on the other side, and as such can't affect a class on one side with a PRC on the other. Or maybe the rule I'm thinking of is that you can't Theurge with things on different sides, but you can have a single-progression thing on one side that is qualified by and applies to the other side.

2. They set up something that lets them have greater-than-full progression which hinges on something on one side that isn't classified as part of that side, like bonus feats or skill ranks. This is fully RAW legal, and responsible for Ultimate Magus cheese that gives you deep Epic casting by level 15, but I can think of no way to make it happen.

3. They have a setup like Sorcerer 3 on one side to qualify for PRCs that they are trying to apply to the Wizard casting on the other side. Same as with 1, it's not RAW legal unless the rule against using PRCs to advance between sides is specifically about single PRCs applying to both sides.

[The_Jette]

I suppose, you just have to ask yourself this question: if there was a build that allowed a gestalt character to take two PrC's that both have dual leveling in divine and arcane, would you let both stack? Probably not. Why? Because you're leveling up your Spellcasting beyond your actual HD. So, for instance, you wouldn't allow this:
1st level: Bard/Cleric
2nd level: Wizard/Bard
3rd-10th: Wizard/Cleric
11th-20th: Mystic Theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist

You would end up with a character with 2nd level bard spells, 29th level Cleric spells, and 29th level Wizard spells. That's just a little bit more than the Gestalt concept intended for...

[Morphic tide]

I suppose, you just have to ask yourself this question: if there was a build that allowed a gestalt character to take two PrC's that both have dual leveling in divine and arcane, would you let both stack? Probably not. Why? Because you're leveling up your Spellcasting beyond your actual HD. So, for instance, you wouldn't allow this:
1st level: Bard/Cleric
2nd level: Wizard/Bard
3rd-10th: Wizard/Cleric
11th-20th: Mystic Theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist

You would end up with a character with 2nd level bard spells, 29th level Cleric spells, and 29th level Wizard spells. That's just a little bit more than the Gestalt concept intended for...

The Ultimate Magus can be cheesed into 30th level Wizard casting by somewhere around level 16. The cheese is that there's ways to get spontaneous casting on Wizards to meet the prerequisites for Ultimate Magus, then you have the Wizard qualify as a spontaneous caster to apply the Ultimate Magus bonuses to.

[zergling.exe]

The Ultimate Magus can be cheesed into 30th level Wizard casting by somewhere around level 16. The cheese is that there's ways to get spontaneous casting on Wizards to meet the prerequisites for Ultimate Magus, then you have the Wizard qualify as a spontaneous caster to apply the Ultimate Magus bonuses to.

Actually, spontaneous spellcaster is a defined thing, and wizards don't meet that definition, even with some amount of spontaneous casting. Don't remember the exact details, but it came up here before.

[Telonius]

I suppose, you just have to ask yourself this question: if there was a build that allowed a gestalt character to take two PrC's that both have dual leveling in divine and arcane, would you let both stack? Probably not. Why? Because you're leveling up your Spellcasting beyond your actual HD. So, for instance, you wouldn't allow this:
1st level: Bard/Cleric
2nd level: Wizard/Bard
3rd-10th: Wizard/Cleric
11th-20th: Mystic Theurge/Fochlucan Lyrist

You would end up with a character with 2nd level bard spells, 29th level Cleric spells, and 29th level Wizard spells. That's just a little bit more than the Gestalt concept intended for...

Why stop there? Plunk a level of Ur Priest on the Bard/Cleric side and Sublime Chord on the Bard/Wizard side, so the faster progressions can be advanced too.

Seriously, there's basically a big flashing red "DM warning" label on all of that kind of thing:


Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.

Note that they're not just saying dual-casting classes. If something as usually-unoffensive as Arcane Trickster gets called out, I think that tells you what the intent would be for double-stacking caster progressions.

[Aegis013]

Okay, three situations that cover the described thing and my view on their legality:

1. They have PRCs on one side trying to advance casting of the Wizard levels which qualified for the PRC on the other side. This is not legal because you can't qualify for a PRC on one side with what's on the other side, and as such can't affect a class on one side with a PRC on the other. Or maybe the rule I'm thinking of is that you can't Theurge with things on different sides, but you can have a single-progression thing on one side that is qualified by and applies to the other side.

2. They set up something that lets them have greater-than-full progression which hinges on something on one side that isn't classified as part of that side, like bonus feats or skill ranks. This is fully RAW legal, and responsible for Ultimate Magus cheese that gives you deep Epic casting by level 15, but I can think of no way to make it happen.

3. They have a setup like Sorcerer 3 on one side to qualify for PRCs that they are trying to apply to the Wizard casting on the other side. Same as with 1, it's not RAW legal unless the rule against using PRCs to advance between sides is specifically about single PRCs applying to both sides.

1 and 3 are erroneous. There is no such thing as "sides" in gestalt, mechanically speaking.

There is abosuletly no difference between taking a level of paladin//wizard followed by a level of paladin//incanatatrix or incantatix//paladin (these are 100% utterly the same thing), for example. "Sides" or "tracks" are just an easy way to break down a gestalt build for communication purposes. They have no mechanical function.

I could rant about how silly I think attempting to enforce a split the gestalt mechanically is, but the point is that there is no split by RAW and I doubt there was intended to be.

Regarding number 2 theurge classes aren't allowed in standard gestalt in the first place, like simultaneous PrCs, so unless the DM is allowing it including whatever stipulations they wish, it's irrelevant. Limits on skill ranks and the like that are tied to HD would still be in effect as well.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1 and 3 are erroneous. There is no such thing as "sides" in gestalt, mechanically speaking.

There is abosuletly no difference between taking a level of paladin//wizard followed by a level of paladin//incanatatrix or incantatix//paladin (these are 100% utterly the same thing), for example. "Sides" or "tracks" are just an easy way to break down a gestalt build for communication purposes. They have no mechanical function.
Absolutely this, and it also explains why you can't dual-advance, in a sense: you first combine wizard 6 and incantatrix 1 (say) into one class level, which gets the features of both sides (bonus feat and +1 spellcasting level, mainly), and only then do you apply it to your wizard 5//factotum 5 base.

[Xanyo]

I would love to play a relatively balanced and very flavorful character.

Unfortunately, that is not viable in this game until the BBEG is gone. Permanently.

I have to have an obscenely overpowered character to so much as stand a chance because the BBEG is even more obscenely overpowered. It's barely short of Pun-Pun level, that's how powerful it is.

[flappeercraft]

Well that is what happens when you join a game that is completely based around going as nuts as you want. But yes the BBEG is ridiculous, I did a test run with someone playing pun pun and he survived 10 rounds before we just decided to end it off because we saw no end to it. Although there were probably abilities we missed that could've killed the BBEG.

Edit: Also part of why I raised the difficulty was because when you guys started going nuts at the rate you were going if I didn't optimize more you guys would just stomp over every encounter I made and also since the point of the game is optimizing and it being basically a sandbox where all is allowed, I wasn't going to just tell you guys to reduce your optimizing

[Xanyo]

You didn't need to raise the BBEG. Also, it's mostly me going nuts.

As it is, I have yet to think of a reliable way to beat him. A no-save no-SR Crystallize could manage it, but how would I manage that???

[flappeercraft]

No I didn't raise the BBEG, just his guards which you guys have met and other encounters. Tbh before updating them they were powerful but not even 1/100th of his power probably, not even exaggerating. Now probably more around 1/20th

Edit: Just a tip, try find a way to make your plans not backfire like last 3 times you confonted him

[Dagroth]

1 and 3 are erroneous. There is no such thing as "sides" in gestalt, mechanically speaking.

There is abosuletly no difference between taking a level of paladin//wizard followed by a level of paladin//incanatatrix or incantatix//paladin (these are 100% utterly the same thing), for example. "Sides" or "tracks" are just an easy way to break down a gestalt build for communication purposes. They have no mechanical function.

I could rant about how silly I think attempting to enforce a split the gestalt mechanically is, but the point is that there is no split by RAW and I doubt there was intended to be.

Regarding number 2 theurge classes aren't allowed in standard gestalt in the first place, like simultaneous PrCs, so unless the DM is allowing it including whatever stipulations they wish, it's irrelevant. Limits on skill ranks and the like that are tied to HD would still be in effect as well.

I think the "sides" thing comes from the Heroforge spreadsheet/program.

If you're not careful in how you enter the classes, it doesn't properly credit your +BAB.

[Tohsaka Rin]

It has hitpoints, but that won't kill it. The best I've got so far will immobilize him for 8 rounds. 8.

...And in those 8 rounds glop enough quintessence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/quintessence.htm) onto him for the win?

[Aegis013]

I think the "sides" thing comes from the Heroforge spreadsheet/program.

If you're not careful in how you enter the classes, it doesn't properly credit your +BAB.

I'm unfamiliar with the program. My point still stands though.

[Ualaa]

Your player is essentially arguing that if you were a full BAB class on both sides of your build, the features stack (not overlap), and you get +2 BAB per level of the Gestalt.

With Gestalt, which appeared in Unearthed Arcana right at the end of the 3.0 era, and as 3.5 was coming in, there were several sidebars that went with the system.

One was to use fractional Base Attack Bonus.
So a full BAB class would contribute +1.00 to BAB.
A 3/4 BAB class would contribute +0.75 to BAB.
The 1/2 BAB classes would contribute +0.50 to BAB.
Since it is Gestalt, you would take the most favorable of the bonuses.

This also means you cannot alternate wizard and sorcerer, with a full BAB class at level one.
So this doesn't work well, even if a player may think it does.
01. Fighter 01 (+1 BAB) | Wizard 01 (+0 BAB)... Use Fighter's +1
02. Sorcerer 01 (+0 BAB) | Wizard 02 (+1 BAB)... Use Wizard's +1
03. Sorcerer 02 (+1 BAB) | Wizard 03 (+0 BAB)... Use Sorcerer's +1.

In actuality you get.
01... Fighter's 1.00 or Wizard's 0.50 = 1.00 Fighter = 1.00 Total
02... Sorcerer's 0.50 or Wizard's 0.50 = 0.50 ...... = 1.50 Total
03... Sorcerer's 0.50 or Wizard's 0.50 = 0.50 ...... = 2.00 Total



Saving throws work the same way.
If your class has a strong saving throw, at first level, they get 2.5 for their save.
Literally 30 / 12 (thirty twelths).

If your class has a poor saving throw, at first level, they get 0.00 for their save.
Literally 04 / 12 (four twelths).

Thereafter, so character (not class) level two and beyond, either increase 6/12th's or 4/12th's, depending on whether the save is good or bad, from the best source.

If you were a Monk | Sorcerer
And then switched to Fighter | Sorcerer.

At first level you have.................. 30/12 (2.50) || 30/12 (2.50) || 30/12 (2.50)
At second level that improves to... 36/12 (3.00) || 34/12 (2.83) || 36/12 (3.00)



Best possible progression is another thing for Gestalt.

A Rogue has +1d6 sneak attack dice, for every odd level they possess.
So that is 1d6 per two class levels.

If you were to take the Slayer class, which gets +1d6 sneak dice at... 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th...
And you were to stagger the two classes...

01. Rogue 01 | Slayer 01 = +1d6 sneak (Rogue)
02. Rogue 02 | Slayer 02 = No Improvement
03. Rogue 03 | Fighter 01 = +1d6 sneak (Rogue)
04. Rogue 04 | Slayer 03 = +1d6 sneak (Slayer)

A 4th level Gestalt character cannot have better sneak dice than their best progression.
Their rogue gets them 1 sneak die every 2nd level.
Their slayer gets them 1 sneak die every 3rd level.
At 4th level, going by the better progression, 2d6 sneak is the most they're going to have.



Your caster player who wants +1 Wizard Casting from Wizard levels... and +1 Wizard Casting from a Prestige Class, has overlapping class features.

Just as a 01 Fighter | 01 Barbarian, who both have +1 BAB per level, gets to use the feature only once, the caster only gets Wizard casting once.
The feature overlaps.

In addition to the +1 spellcasting as a Wizard, they get whatever features a Wizard has at that class level, maybe a bonus metamagic feat.
In addition to the +1 spellcasting from their Prestige class (which doesn't stack with the Wizard casting), they get their prestige features.
If they were a Prestige Class with no spellcasting advancement at say 1st and 10th level, but were +1 casting at levels 2 through 9... doing a Gestalt with the Wizard at the levels where their casting would not progress it would thanks to the Wizard class feature.

If they were a Wizard | Cleric, the two casting abilities stack, because one is improving the casting of a Wizard and the other is improving the casting of a Cleric.