How unfair is fair when the rules say to be unfair?

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

At time of writing, I'm creating a kobold-filled dungeon in 5e. As I'm more used to the player's side of the screen in 5e, I've never made a 5e dungeon before. Most dungeons I've played in have been more the kind you get from a random generator or by rolling on random tables than by designing a dungeon. Traps placed randomly instead of strategically, enemies from room to room that seemed to make no sense, etc.

To try and expand my understanding of what this dungeon should include, I cracked open Volo's and went over the material about kobolds there. Apparently they're kind of intended to be Tucker's Kobolds but without the stat buffs. They play like pragmatic creatures that know they're small and weak so they use traps and tactics to put the enemy at every possible disadvantage when fervently defending their home turf. If played as described in the manual, the traps set by kobolds will not be random, haphazard traps. Volo's talks about tunnels made intentionally small to force medium invaders to fight in cramped conditions. Traps made to isolate enemies and take them apart one at a time. Elavators rigged to fall, bridges rigged to collapse when a larger-than-kobold creature tries to cross.

Im more wondering, how do I properly portray kobolds as expert trapmakers without being too unfair? How unfair is unfair when the description of kobolds says they don't play fair?

[Dappershire]

I say don't worry about it. Play the dungeon to the Kobold's strengths. If you're worried about the danger level being unfair towards the party, have them run into some kind info. Locals would know about the Kobolds. Maybe even tried to take them out themselves. "Clever little bastards. You think you're alone, and the just -pop-, right out of the walls at you. Lost my brother to a pit. Lost my arm to a cave in. I don't know what mighty heroes say about them, but me? I'd rather face a full on Dragon, then a tribe of its mutts."
If they don't take the warning, then that's their fault. And nothing is stopping them from having a few short/light weight races in the party.

[Gastronomie]

First-off, the easiest way to say something is fair as a DM is by blaming it on the dice.

For instance, if a trap does not have a saving throw and automatically triggers, that's absolutely terrible and unfair. But if it has a saving throw with a reasonable DC, that's not unfair at all.
Also, I doubt the DC of any trap a Kobold would make will ever exceed 15 (they're master trap-makers, but they're also CR 1/8 or something, forgot the exact number).

Making chambers and corridors that are suitable for the tactics of the Kobolds is not unfair. The DM has the right to build combat maps as they want, as long as that's included in the difficulty of the encounter (perhaps add an XP bonus, and/or make the XP sum of the monsters lower than normal for adjustment).

And most importantly, give the players some time and methods to figure out what the Kobold lair is like before they actually enter. Perhaps, staying in the city inn is an adventurer party who tried venturing in the lair before, and failed miserably. Gain their favor, and you learn some of what awaits you. Or maybe there's some goblins who are trying to get rid of the kobolds in the same area, and they could give information if bargained with food or gold.
That plus, methods of countermeasure. For instance, if the adventurers in the inn tell you "there's a long, straight corridor that makes it difficult to attack the backrow Kobold archers", you should throw in the town a magical merchant NPC who sells various spell scrolls, including Lightning Bolt. That sort.

If the DM has lots of tricks, also let the players find out information about them and use that knowledge to their advantage.
That way, stuff seem really awesome.

Of course, if the players are all stupid, ignore the clues, and jump into the lair head-first knowing there's lots of traps, well, that's that (doesn't count as a valid reason to TPK on purpose, but does count as a valid reason for players getting in trouble).
But if there's one or two smart players, they'll understand what you have for them. That'll be fun for sure.

[djreynolds]

And post the adventure here, sounds fun. I'd like to run something like this.

[Sir Pippin Boyd]

The players are lost in a wilderness region so an inn might be hard to justify, but there are plenty of other ways to warn the players. One of the PCs is an Aasimar, so they might especially take note of any warning that comes from his guardian spirit.

To make a long post short, I'm using certain story elements and tropes to play up the kobolds as a threat before the players encounter them. The players will discover an underground dwarf town where all the dwarves are dead, references to something from beneath having killed them all. The players will learn they need a special key to open the door to where they need to go, and the key has been taken by the enemies below.

The players will encounter the traps before the kobolds that set them. I fear that if I just hit them with kobolds right away, they wont take them seriously as a threat and will feel cheated if they die. If I instead incorporate some horror elements to play up the threat and then reveal kobolds to be the culprit, I hope to get the players to take them more seriously as a threat.

At least this way if they die horribly it won't be because they got cold-cocked by something they arrogantly strode right into because they didn't expect kobolds to be a threat. Not saying they wouldn't have it coming, just that its a lame way to TPK.

[Unoriginal]

Kobolds don't play fair, so you shouldn't be fair when playing kobolds.


On the other hand, remember that kobolds are generally less smart than your average Joe.

While kobold traps are brutally efficient, and shouldn't let people have a chance to live, kobolds won't be very good at mind games and that kind of thing.

Surprise pits, stakes and caltrops on the ground, purposely-made hard-to-stand on hazardous environment, stuff getting thrown at you from the floor, walls and ceilings, tiny animals being freed to attack the PCs, etc, all are things that kobolds can and do use. But they're hardly going to go for complexe I-know-you-know-I-know shenanigans or stuff like that.


A trap I definitively suggest you to use, based on the UA for traps:



The characters arrives in a room, with a door for them to get in and another door on the other end.. If they walk on any of the multiple pressure plates that are on the floor, a massive metal door drops at both entrance of the room, next-to-impossible to lift without the mechanism in another room. Then the kobolds just wait for the PCs to lack food, water or air

[Beelzebubba]

I think the only way to really be unfair is to make the DCs to detect/disarm and damage inflicted too high for their level.

If you can visualize a trap being a) built by these tiny creatures using clever things like levers and pulleys, b) sensible to include in the area depending on how much traffic there is and how the trap is armed, and c) technology level appropriate for the little monsters, it's all good.

I also think if the players stealth in successfully, they should be able to bypass them fairly easily.

[Unoriginal]

If you can visualize a trap being a) built by these tiny creatures using clever things like levers and pulleys, b) sensible to include in the area depending on how much traffic there is and how the trap is armed, and c) technology level appropriate for the little monsters, it's all good.

This is true.


I think the only way to really be unfair is to make the DCs to detect/disarm and damage inflicted too high for their level.

Eh, It's not really unfair. They're going to build traps that are hard to detect and that inflict high damage. Just gotta remember that not all the traps can be top-notch, so there should be a good mix of relatively easy and harsh traps


I also think if the players stealth in successfully, they should be able to bypass them fairly easily.

I entirely disagree with the "if stealth is successful, they should bypass traps easily". Traps are to capture and slow down intruders even when you don't detect them.

It's like saying "they fooled the manor's guards, so the electrical security system won't be an issue"

[Battlebooze]

I think the most important issues is, is this going to be fun for your players, as well as being fun for you to run.

Your dungeon will quickly turn into a "I check for traps." Every two feet fest. And really, if the players turn this upside down and make it annoying to run, can you blame them? A Kobold trap and tricks dungeon is training the players to be pedantic and paranoid, or else dead/robbed/embarrassed.

I guess it all boils down, are the players being railroaded into going into the Kobold den of death, or are they free to say, "Screw this, the Kobolds can have their treasure for now. We will come back when we've learned earthquake and level this place then."


I mean, if they enjoy this kind of torment, then hell yes, don't hold back. If not, well, don't expect it to go over well.

[JackPhoenix]

First, are you running Combat as Sport or Combat as War style game? In the later, there's no such thing as "fair", everyone should do what he can to stay alive... that include traps totally not based on party level, enemies reacting logically (attacking a patrol and letting one member escape would lead to facing the whole tribe, not just "everyone stays in the same room as before, only now they are armed and alert from start") and just the general expectation that stumbling into a situation blindly will end up poorly. In the former, yeah, there are CR guidelines, rules for trap detection and difficulty based on party level, etc., in general, more gamist (but no less valid or fun, if your group prefers that style of game) approach. CaS is supposed to be fair, CaW isn't. CaS is the intended style used in published adventures... if you have access to Tales from the Yawning Portal, there's a port of 3e adventure involving a lair of kobolds, the Sunless Citadel, which you may use for inspiration.

[Tetrasodium]

First-off, the easiest way to say something is fair as a DM is by blaming it on the dice.

For instance, if a trap does not have a saving throw and automatically triggers, that's absolutely terrible and unfair. But if it has a saving throw with a reasonable DC, that's not unfair at all.
Also, I doubt the DC of any trap a Kobold would make will ever exceed 15 (they're master trap-makers, but they're also CR 1/8 or something, forgot the exact number).

Making chambers and corridors that are suitable for the tactics of the Kobolds is not unfair. The DM has the right to build combat maps as they want, as long as that's included in the difficulty of the encounter (perhaps add an XP bonus, and/or make the XP sum of the monsters lower than normal for adjustment).

And most importantly, give the players some time and methods to figure out what the Kobold lair is like before they actually enter. Perhaps, staying in the city inn is an adventurer party who tried venturing in the lair before, and failed miserably. Gain their favor, and you learn some of what awaits you. Or maybe there's some goblins who are trying to get rid of the kobolds in the same area, and they could give information if bargained with food or gold.
That plus, methods of countermeasure. For instance, if the adventurers in the inn tell you "there's a long, straight corridor that makes it difficult to attack the backrow Kobold archers", you should throw in the town a magical merchant NPC who sells various spell scrolls, including Lightning Bolt. That sort.

If the DM has lots of tricks, also let the players find out information about them and use that knowledge to their advantage.
That way, stuff seem really awesome.

Of course, if the players are all stupid, ignore the clues, and jump into the lair head-first knowing there's lots of traps, well, that's that (doesn't count as a valid reason to TPK on purpose, but does count as a valid reason for players getting in trouble).
But if there's one or two smart players, they'll understand what you have for them. That'll be fun for sure.

This yea. Kobolds are the type to make you say this kinda thing:

"hah!... such a rush he forgot to kick over the flaming goals when he lit the brazier on his way past"
"Wait no... look bobstupid mangy beast thinks that those two little sticks will burn away from contact fast enough to spill it in the doorway after they broke the original ones got broken off trying to make the brazier stand level instead of just filling that little divot the metal ones are sitting in on the floor."
"Hey steve, what do you suppose these grooves running up the slope say, I think It might be words"
"I'm not sure bob, can't read draconic, but I recognize those symbols for fire elemental. Let me cast a spell"
"'do not touch the fire elemental'.... -rumblecrash- Guess the only way out is forward now that they collapsed the tunnel to seal us in with them LOL!!... What kind of a stupid beast needs to be told not to touch a fire elemental & traps a group of muderhobos in with them"
"enough of this guys, look at those gm stones reflecting light down on the ceiling -rollsdice- holy hell, there has to be at least 25,000gp in diamonds right on that one rock there"
"-crash- looks like the obvious trap didn't even fall right, bob only took 2hp of damage & he failed his save!"
"What do you mean make a dex save to walk through the collapsed rubble?... but ok 10 after my +5 dex bonus"
"Ouch... I still fail for half though.... wtf would have done one point of damage?"
"guys be careful of the glass shards in the rubble. They don't hurt much, but there are lots of them."
"Mangy buggers must have figured anything that can seriously injure them will seriously injure anyone else"
much later
"Quick guysI think that's the tunnel they collapsed after we came in... g go go don't worry about the caltrops, start digging us out Og"
"owowow stupid glass no hurt, but og nose burn funny in here this time"
"oh no... look at how those dry sticks are soaking up the lamp oil running through the groove they are sitting in"
"Quick start calling that beholder controlling dracolich names, maybe it will hear us & move these rocks in anger"
-woosh-
"well, at least I got that 25,000gp diamond studded brick outafter Og got blown down that bottomless pit & merlin the rest of us out from that rope trickthat let him rest long enough to change his spells... wanna go find a nice safe cuddly tarrasque after we true resurrection Og? I hear there is one that follows a couple warforged titans around way out west, that should be pretty easy"


Keep in mind. The kobolds just want to be left alone to dig their tunnels & raise the next generation of tunnel digging kobolds & will do so happily if you offer them nice tools & thingslike a safe place to do it under your city. If your city gets attacked & you have been reasonably good neighbors, they will probably be happy to hide you in their tunnels of horror till the threat is passed

[Tanarii]

Your dungeon will quickly turn into a "I check for traps." Every two feet fest.
Shouldn't if using RAW. All players PCs not doing another task are already assumed to be looking for threats, although generally they need to be in the front rank. And use Passive Perception to do it. See the chapter on adventuring.

If a player says "I check for traps" the best response is either 'you already are', 'okay you stop navigating/mapping/foraging', or 'does that mean you're moving to the front rank?'.

Edit: to be clear, in using passive perception they're already both taking the search action repeatedly and making a secret check, per the rules for passive Checks. There should be no additional 'rolled check' by stating "I check for traps" since they already are. That's the entire point of passive checks, and the noticing threats rules.

[Beelzebubba]

I entirely disagree with the "if stealth is successful, they should bypass traps easily". Traps are to capture and slow down intruders even when you don't detect them.

Well, I agree with you for traps on the periphery, where they are specifically there to keep people away, sound alarms, etcetera.

I'm talking about the Tucker's Kobolds that imply a lived-in space that turns to a highly ambush-driven environment when characters come in. Verisimilitude demands that, say, a central hallway used 100% of the time, by kobolds of all ages, be 100% safe until the alert sounds.

In that case, traps need to be set. And it's totally unfair to have PCs sneak in to the middle of a complex and have a trap spring on them in an area that is a social space. Things don't work like that, and IMO it violates a sense of truth in the world.

[StoicLeaf]

I'd be unfair about it or rather, use it as an opportunity to encourage lateral thinking.
Sieges don't work out well. For either side: the attackers generally suffer heavy losses if they decide to rush it, and defenders will inevitably run out of food.

Your players shouldn't be able to take kobolds on their home turf without losses.
I'd make a smaller adventure around the kobold lair: perhaps the mountain/hill they've dug into used to be part of a now rerouted river; diverting the river to its original course would drown the majority of the kobolds. perhaps a troll lives near the spot where the river was diverted.
Or maybe there's a way for you to capture a kobold, infect it with a highly lethal and contagious disease and release it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think the most important issues is, is this going to be fun for your players, as well as being fun for you to run.
This. There's no magic number or universal rule we can give. You know your players better than we do; the question isn't "how unfair would you be," it's "how unfair can I get before my players get annoyed?" And you're the only one who can answer that, ultimately.

That said, if you haven't been running this sort of encounter before, I'd start small. Go with, say, small tunnels with lots of twists and cover, rather than going whole-hog Tucker's Kobolds on an unsuspecting party.