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Stephen_E
2007-07-30, 08:21 PM
An offshoot from the Leadership thread was how you workout xp for cohort.

A lot of the arguement centered around the disparity between two sections in the 3.5 DMG about this.
One is the generic description under Attracting Cohorts pg 106, and the other is a specific description under Cohorts - Experiance points pg 104/105.

From previous experiance with conflicting passages I went to the 3.0 DMG.
The 3.0 DMG uses exactly the same wording for the generic description but has a different specific method. In 3.0 the Cohort just counted as half a PC and PC experiance was given by party level, not by PC level. So your 4 PCs + cohort would calculate the encounter xp on the average party level (which would include the cohort, thus potentially dropping the level and increasing the xp slightly) and divide the xp by 4.5 for the PCs and give half that for the cohort.
Example - An encounter is worth 900xp. 900/4.5 = 200 xp. Each PC gets 200 xp and the cohort gets 100xp.

When they went from 3.0 to 3.5 they took the generic leadership stuff straight across, but having changed the XP system in general, they also changed the XP system for Cohorts. Thus you have the difference.

I'd note that many people use the 3.0 general xp system as it's a lot less work and comes to the same numbers so long as the PC levels are the same.
I know one of my groups just uses a fudge factor for PC's whose levels are different from the party average by giving 10% bonus/penalty for each lev they're below or above.

Having gone through all this I have to say that it seems to me that those who say the xp for cohorts in 3.5 is essentially "free xp" that doesn't impact on the players xp are correct.

Of course this doesn't stop DM's using house rules/"rule 0".
IMHO the bit that hasn't changed, that cohorts want a share of the loot, is much more important, and more likely to get up other PC's noses.

Stephen

Thinker
2007-07-30, 08:33 PM
I don't mind house rules. I really enjoy them. The problem comes when someone claims that their house rule is the way it is. It generally spreads misinformation and isn't good for anybody if not specified. This is especially true when someone is asking about how something works. I don't really think this merits a new thread as there was only one person arguing in favor of the wrong way.

Stephen_E
2007-07-30, 08:43 PM
I don't mind house rules. I really enjoy them. The problem comes when someone claims that their house rule is the way it is. It generally spreads misinformation and isn't good for anybody if not specified. This is especially true when someone is asking about how something works. I don't really think this merits a new thread as there was only one person arguing in favor of the wrong way.

To be fair he had a basis for view. The DMG did say that a cohort impacts on the party XP. The response to merely talk louder about the conflicting text that supported the other view isn't particuly helpful/persuasive.

It's a bit like trying to speak to someone who doesn't understand your language. Speaking louder usually doesn't help. :smallwink:

Stephen

Jack_Simth
2007-07-30, 09:03 PM
Headache Reducing House Rule regarding Cohorts:

Your cohort ignores the XP mechanic, and levels up at the same time you do, to the maximum cohort level you're qualified for. Any XP you order your cohort to spend comes from your character (and faces the same limitations). Any XP the DM orders your cohort to spend comes from the DM's basket of handwavium.

tainsouvra
2007-07-30, 09:09 PM
Just a quick note on that whole thing--while the presence "XP" in the paragraph which states...
You're free to disallow this feat if it would disrupt the campaign. Be sure to consider the effects of a PC having a cohort. A cohort is effectively another PC in the party under that player's control, one whose share of XP, treasure, and spotlight time is bound to take something away from the other players' characters. ...is misleading, there are a couple things to consider. This section does not in any way cover the division of experience, nor does it in any way specify how its share of experience would "take something away from the other players' characters". Scenarios can be envisioned in which the cohort getting his own share of experience, while not mechanically reducing the amount the PC's gain, could still detract from others' satisfaction with an encounter. Again, it is very important to note that this is a tangential usage rather than a rule explanation.

The process on 104-105, "Cohorts Experience Points", it explicitly delineates the entire process and directly states in the very first step that you...
Don't include a cohort as a party member when determining the XP awards for individual characters. In a party containing four PCs and one cohort, each PC gets 1/4 of the overall XP award. ...which is probably clear enough that I need not dwell any further on it.

So, indeed, an argument can be made that the DMG is inconsistent here. However, this inconsistency is easily resolved--the "Attracting Cohorts" section mentions XP tangentially, while the "Cohorts Experience Points" section is the primary source for rules on cohort experience points. If it needs to be said, I will also point out that the Official Dungeon Master's Guide v3.5 Errata states
When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. As there is no errata file which directs us to use any cohort experience rule other than the one found in the "Cohorts Experience Points" section, it takes precedence over all sources which disagree with it with regard to cohorts' experience points, such as "Attracting Cohorts".

In short, even if the "Attracting Cohorts" is being correctly interpreted as "cohorts get a share of the experience which reduces the amount players get", it's officially erratum and should be ignored.

Dausuul
2007-07-30, 09:10 PM
Headache Reducing House Rule regarding Cohorts:

Your cohort ignores the XP mechanic, and levels up at the same time you do, to the maximum cohort level you're qualified for. Any XP you order your cohort to spend comes from your character (and faces the same limitations). Any XP the DM orders your cohort to spend comes from the DM's basket of handwavium.

Yup, that would be our house rule right there.

Zain_Thorngallow
2007-07-30, 10:24 PM
Headache Reducing House Rule regarding Cohorts:

Your cohort ignores the XP mechanic, and levels up at the same time you do, to the maximum cohort level you're qualified for. Any XP you order your cohort to spend comes from your character (and faces the same limitations). Any XP the DM orders your cohort to spend comes from the DM's basket of handwavium.

There is one slight issue with this house rule, though. :smalltongue:

Namely, the table for what level of cohort you can attract isn't a straight one-to-one ratio... it slows down significantly the further in you go, so that you initially attract a cohort that is quite possibly several levels lower then you are.

They will, however, gain XP using the normal mechanic at a rate that will, in time, get them up to the "Player Level -1" limit.

If you just keep them at the level they start at and raise it when the player levels, they'll never catch up to the level the feat allows them to. If you have them simply start at the level below their PC, then any bonuses or penalties to their Leadership score become meaningless, essentially.

Leadership... fun, but accountancy at its worst. :smallbiggrin:

Drider
2007-07-30, 10:31 PM
It's a bit like trying to speak to someone who doesn't understand your language. Speaking louder usually doesn't help. :smallwink:

BLASPHEMY!!! Thats ALL you can do to get someone to understand. They don't need words to understand loudness.
*DISCLAIMER* DO NOT YELL AT PEOPLE FOR SPEAKING A DIFFERANT LANGUAGE...if they're bigger than you

Gralamin
2007-07-30, 10:42 PM
There is one slight issue with this house rule, though. :smalltongue:

Namely, the table for what level of cohort you can attract isn't a straight one-to-one ratio... it slows down significantly the further in you go, so that you initially attract a cohort that is quite possibly several levels lower then you are.

They will, however, gain XP using the normal mechanic at a rate that will, in time, get them up to the "Player Level -1" limit.

If you just keep them at the level they start at and raise it when the player levels, they'll never catch up to the level the feat allows them to. If you have them simply start at the level below their PC, then any bonuses or penalties to their Leadership score become meaningless, essentially.

Leadership... fun, but accountancy at its worst. :smallbiggrin:

You mean Player level -2 limit. The -1 is for Thrallherds first Thralls.

I agree with the above house rule.

Roland St. Jude
2007-07-30, 10:49 PM
I don't mind house rules. I really enjoy them. The problem comes when someone claims that their house rule is the way it is. It generally spreads misinformation and isn't good for anybody if not specified. This is especially true when someone is asking about how something works. I don't really think this merits a new thread as there was only one person arguing in favor of the wrong way.

Sheriff of Moddingham: I closed off this line of debate in the other thread and suggested an entirely new one to avoid these kinds of personal conflicts. The "someone" you reference hasn't appeared in this thread, so there's no reason to bring that "one person" into it. Discuss the mechanic, if you like, but check your baggage at the door. Thank you.

Rules of Posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=30&a=1):

External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum, free from outside influences—especially those outside of these boards. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion, and you can't harass anyone over anything they did in another thread, on another website's board, or in real life. If you can't check your baggage at the door, you'll end up earning an Infraction.

Stephen_E
2007-07-31, 02:32 AM
Roland,
I have to say with a name like Roland St Jude you've always struck me as more a Paladin than a Gunslinger (Hinjo Paladin, not Miko Paladin!).:smallwink:

Albeit the writer David Gemmel did do a nice Gunslinger Paladin by the name of "The Jerusalem Man".

Stephen

Jack_Simth
2007-07-31, 06:17 AM
Zain_Thorngallow:

It doesn't have to be a one-to-one ratio. If you qualified for a 10th level Cohort at 13th, but don't qualify for an 11th level Cohort at 14th, your cohort stays 10th. If you qualify for a 8th level Cohort at 11th, and a 10th level Cohort at 12th, your cohort levels twice in rapid succession.

Your cohort levels up to the highest level you're qualified to have as a Cohort. When that means 0 levels, that means 0 levels. What's the problem?

Zain_Thorngallow
2007-07-31, 09:11 AM
Zain_Thorngallow:

It doesn't have to be a one-to-one ratio. If you qualified for a 10th level Cohort at 13th, but don't qualify for an 11th level Cohort at 14th, your cohort stays 10th. If you qualify for a 8th level Cohort at 11th, and a 10th level Cohort at 12th, your cohort levels twice in rapid succession.

That isn't what I read from the text. One Attracts a cohort at the level indicated on the Leadership Score table, but once in the party advances purely according to XP. The rules for granting XP to the cohort make no mention of the Leadership Score limitation, or its associated table... only that, as Gralamin corrected me on:


If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.


The benefit of a high leadership score (ignoring the extra followers) is that the Cohort will start stronger then the one gained with a low leadership score, but both characters can eventually have equal level cohorts if those cohorts happen to survive long enough to reach the PC character level -2 limit.

Such is my understanding of the rules, at least...

Stephen_E
2007-07-31, 09:44 AM
That isn't what I read from the text. One Attracts a cohort at the level indicated on the Leadership Score table, but once in the party advances purely according to XP. The rules for granting XP to the cohort make no mention of the Leadership Score limitation, or its associated table... only that, as Gralamin corrected me on:
.

I think Jack Smiths talking about his house rule, not the RAW.
Basically his house rule (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that instead of playing around with XP he just says that your Cohort's level is whatever it would be if you'd just taken him, checked each time you level up.

Example - A 6th lev PC with 7 Cha is entitled to, and gets a 2nd lev cohort.
At 7th lev his leadership score climbs to 5, but this is still only a 3rd lev cohort, so his cohort doesn't level up.
At 8th lev he increase his Cha to 8, increasing his leadership score to 7, entitling him to a 5th lev cohort, so his cohort climbs to levels.

Somewhat clunky IMHO, but does save you fussing with XP (not a big deal IMO, but tastes vary).

Stephen

Jack_Simth
2007-07-31, 03:37 PM
That isn't what I read from the text. One Attracts a cohort at the level indicated on the Leadership Score table, but once in the party advances purely according to XP. The rules for granting XP to the cohort make no mention of the Leadership Score limitation, or its associated table... only that, as Gralamin corrected me on:

Was specifically talking about the house rule. Compared to the text of the feat in the SRD for leveling up the cohort...


Cohorts earn XP as follows:

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.
Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).
Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.
If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.
... it's a lot less math (he just pings every now and again, you're not tracking a seperate XP pool that requires working with fractions every session). Oh, and unless the Leadership character crafts magic items (or is otherwise loosing XP every now and again), the SRD Leader's Cohort is never going to advance faster than the leader - When the 7th level PC gets 700 xp, his 5th level Cohort gains 500. When the 7th level PC gains 7,000 xp (exactly enough to level), his 5th level Cohort gains 5,000 (exactly enough to level). If you've got an 8th level character than now qualifies for a 6th level Cohort (previously qualified for a 4th level cohort) the Cohort won't catch up (as it's based on their relative levels).

Matthew
2007-08-01, 08:35 AM
I can't help thinking that the contradictory paragraph is a holdover from previous editions, where Cohorts (Henchmen) were alloted one half share of the Experience Points gained by the party. Personally, I prefer that method, but the RAW seems fairly clear.

Stephen_E
2007-08-01, 09:05 AM
I can't help thinking that the ntradictory paragraph is a holdover from previous editions, where Cohorts (Henchmen) were alloted one half share of the Experience Points gained by the party. Personally, I prefer that method, but the RAW seems fairly clear.

I've started developing a habit when I come across something in the core books that involves two paragraphs that contradict. Check the 3.0 book.
If one passage is new and the other an exact reprint of the 3.0 it's probably a thoughtless cut/paste.:smallannoyed: :smallsigh:

Stephen

Thinker
2007-08-01, 09:22 AM
I've started developing a habit when I come across something in the core books that involves two paragraphs that contradict. Check the 3.0 book.
If one passage is new and the other an exact reprint of the 3.0 it's probably a thoughtless cut/paste.:smallannoyed: :smallsigh:

Stephen

And for this I do not blame the designer, I blame the editor. The designers shouldn't be responsible for catching every single typo or cut & paste error. They make the system, edit the system, and turn it in to the editor. The error still shouldn't cause major misinterpretation.

Matthew
2007-08-01, 09:46 AM
I've started developing a habit when I come across something in the core books that involves two paragraphs that contradict. Check the 3.0 book.
If one passage is new and the other an exact reprint of the 3.0 it's probably a thoughtless cut/paste.:smallannoyed: :smallsigh:

Stephen

Yeah, I have been doing that for a while, ever since encountering the Fly By Attack Feat.