DM Portent

[Pex]

It's metagame fair, but should a DM have a bad guy Diviner use Portent against a player to autofail an attack roll or worse, a saving throw? This is a philosophical inquiry, not based on happenstance of a game I'm playing nor my usual rants against tyrannical DMing.

[Battlebooze]

Ewww.... Well, yes, but only carefully.

I wouldn't use it on an anything that's likely to be an auto kill like a critical disintegrate. If the Players know the enemy has this kind of power, then I hope they mentally prepare for "dice shenanigans." and plan for bad luck.

[Coffee_Dragon]

On the one hand it feels a bit like it would defeat the point of making NPCs using the PC rules if you're not going to play key abilities intelligently (on the same meta level that players would). That said I have my doubts about veto abilities generally. In the case of known cheese it's quite possible that "now let's see how you like it" is not actually a good use of anyone's time.

[IShouldntBehere]

In general I frown upon using PC rules to make NPCs and giving NPCs abilities primarily written for PCs, and vice-versa. That said the official rules supporting doing so and the approach is popular.

In that case if NPC has an ability I think they should be inclined to use it to their best interest. A fire elemental will drop not his fire immunity simply because a PC is fond of fire spells, nor will a squad of enemy soldiers head into battle without their armor simply because the fighter has been rolling low tonight and could use a good hit. If the NPC has an ability that lets him negate a hit or save from an ability I see no reason they wouldn't just to respect their adversaries hot dice.

[Lolzyking]

I'd have the pc's learn of his ability to portent at some point before learning he's the bbeg. Like they see him get attacked in a city and his attacker who's attack is going straight for his neck fumbles out of nowhere, spectacularly, as if fate was twisted infront of them.

[Ruslan]

I vote no. A PC can use Portent with no problem. He doesn't cause the DM to lose agency, because the DM can always make more NPCs, more BBEGs, more dragons, etc. A DM using Portent on the (one and only) character the player has makes the player lose agency.

At the very least, have the PCs wanted about this in-character.

[Slipperychicken]

Maybe if the PCs are actually fighting a diviner wizard.

I'd also make it very obvious what's happening. Have the wizard shout "Ha ha! It is as I predicted! The foolish savage missed completely! This fight is ours!"

[Saiga]

I'd have the pc's learn of his ability to portent at some point before learning he's the bbeg. Like they see him get attacked in a city and his attacker who's attack is going straight for his neck fumbles out of nowhere, spectacularly, as if fate was twisted infront of them.

If possible, the Wizard could even use his portent to benefit a player's roll some time before they became enemies.

That could be really cool. When the players are getting ready to fight him, they'll remember the time he helped them and know to watch out for it.

[Trask]

I think that there's a unspoken code at most tables, where the DM won't use things that are perceived to be too strong or ensuring death for a PC. That said, it's hardly unfair and doesn't take "agency" away from a PC. It seems a class ability of the Diviner wizard and if the players are fighting a diviner why wouldn't he use it?

I do think it would be sportsmanlike to give the players an opportunity to learn about the powers of the foes that they face as a general rule, but if the players don't really try to figure any of that out then an encounter with a Diviner should teach them otherwise

[Zman]

Absolutely, if you're running a diviner then they should absolutely use them as a character would, obviously without meta knowledge. High level diviner hits you with discintigrste and replaces your roll with a 3, that sucks, but that is exactly what a player would have done, to donotherwise is IMO a disservice to the players.

Just yesterday my group's entire party died at the pinnacle of a 1.5 year campaign, the big bad used a nasty contingency with Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to avoid a round of attacks, then nailed the wounded bard(only source of healing and most support) with discintigrate, he failed his save and a lucky reroll and was turned to a pile of dust. Now that was bad, and I could have really pulled punches and fudged them an escape down just one party member, but the other big bad, a Battlemaster took his opportunity to Trip the Rogue, then pummel him with advantage, and then an action surge with advantage dropping him to zero. I could have chosen to not action surge and press that advantage, but followed through. Insult to injury, the player rolls a 20 on his death saving throw, gets up, misses, and is Riposted right back down.

The bad guys with a decisive advantage pushed that advantage two more characters died as another was Held, it was brutal. The end of our heroes story ended with a dramatic and tragic death, each falling one by one. There was no mistake, there was counter spell for that.

Now, early in the game when they were out of their league and forced a confrontation with them, I changed the conditions of that fight, there were mundane allies, and they only had to force the enemy to flee, and the guys spell list was tailored differently. This time, it was the big showdown and they weren't pulling punches, and the party came up snake eyes.

Does that mean you should always be vicious , no not necessarily. If it's early and a random encounter, I might hold back a touch to avoid a TPK, but not with a big bad like a diviner wizard, a special enemy like that needs to be as ruthlessly efficient as the players would be.

[MrStabby]

There are a lot of powerful ways to let the diviner use portent to make the encounter more interesting not less interesting. They pass that perception check and are not surprised, they get a high initiative and can spring their trap, they counter that crucial high level spell that would have ended the fight...

It is fair to use the ability but like others say, it is about making it fun and making it satisfying. Casting a spell to draw out a portent effect feels like a job done well then it is planned. Losing a crucial spell to a previously unknown ability kind of hurts.

[Battlebooze]

Just yesterday my group's entire party died at the pinnacle of a 1.5 year campaign. Yada yada yada.


:smalleek:
It sounds like all of you lost to the dice.

Still, building an final encounter with set up counter-spells and contingencies... Were the players going to get the keys to your car if they won or something?

[JNAProductions]

So long as they have a way of knowing it's coming? Yes, it's fine. Don't spring it by surprise on them (well, unless they failed miserably at gathering information and it's the type of campaign where they are expected to gather information ond angerous foes) but use it all the same.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe if the PCs are actually fighting a diviner wizard.

I'd also make it very obvious what's happening. Have the wizard shout "Ha ha! It is as I predicted! The foolish savage missed completely! This fight is ours!"

I think this depends on style. But personally? I agree with Slipperychicken. In fact, I'd even suggest going a step further. Give storyline hints that the guy is possibly a diviner before they even set foot within a 100 feet of him. Not only do I think this preps them for the annoyance/wonder that is Divine Portent, but you can gauge their reaction from the story itself.

I would personally save very powerful player abilities (I really doubt anyone cares if the BBEG has expertise in investigation) for really important foes. Not every Diviner SHOULD have this ability, but the one at the climax of a few sessions might be a different kettle of fish.

If you are on the fence, have the Diviner use the abilities when they IC would, or hint that the players should mess with it. For instance, you have a PC fighter doing their thing. Well, have them roll Bluff to make it look like they are just trying to smack the guy in the face, so he wastes it when the fighter is conserving their energy and keeping their footing stable, not on a risky attempt to hint the wizard in a weak spot. If the Diviner doesn't know what the players can and cannot do, they might not use the ability efficiently.

I would not recommend PCs following the same rule, since it would add a crap ton of rolls to use an ability that is supposed to work twice a day. It would also require a lot of training to even make it work, making the Diviner the worst of the wizard schools.

[Pex]

As a player I wouldn't enjoy that it happened, but I can't fault its existing. It should not happen if the character would immediately die because of it. Inconvenience a character ok. Cause a wasted loss of a class ability resource ok. It's going to hurt. Just no to destroying the character.

[guachi]

We finished last session with the players stumbling out of a boarded up inn after taking on a troll and right into the street and the waiting arms of the BBEG and his henchmen. Next session is the battle.

The BBEG is a diviner wizard. I have planned to roll the Portent dice in front of the players at the beginning of the session but I won't immediately tell them what the rolls are. At least this way, while they don't yet know he's a diviner they will know the dice rolled were rolled fairly.

I have zero problem using every trick I can with NPCs, many of whom are straight up designed via the PC class rules. I'm running an old module from the '80s and many NPCs are just straight up designed using PC rules.

[furby076]

Ive only been playing 5e since summer, and really havent had time to read the dmg.
Sk if your npc has divineer levels, and hasnt used his portent ability (randomly roll to see if he used one or both earlier in the day) then i see no issues with you using this. It sucks if someone dies, but that happens in dnd.

The only time i have problems with npcs is when they are cheesed out. I had one dm who was proud when he could beat us with his core only npcs, vs our pcs who could use any official book (pathfinder 3.5). He was even proud the npc wealth level used was 25% of recommended. His npcs quaffed potions and scrolls before the fight...and were almost always pre buffed and waiting for us. Heck, even the time we teleported into the stone of the mountain (we were polymorphed into earth elementals). We then wait 2 hours (in case the bbeg had a super massive delayed teleport effect), then went to spring our trap. The bbeg had all his buffs (including minutes and rounds buffs) up and ready.

So, dont do cheesy things and your good, how can that apply to spell caster: unless he was planning for a fight that day, maybe some of his spells are utility. Maybe some were used on other stuff. Maybe some abilities are used. Then again...maybe he finished his 8 hour rest, and was planning to go kill something that day

[Trask]

It really depends on the game your running and the attitude of your group.

Not every game is ran for maximum enjoyment of the players (in the sense that they always win/arent in fear of being rapidly and arbitrarily killed), a lot of players like that feeling that death is real and right over their shoulder. For players that want to fight hard, and do, DM's sometimes need very powerful/arbitrary tools to rack up damage/death otherwise everything is a cakewalk. Is it cheesy and can it lead to unhappy players? Yes. But I'm not a tactical mastermind that I can create such intricate challenges for players on demand, things like portent/disintegrate are things to fall back on when you just want to make a bbeg STRONG but you dont want to spend hours making a friggen end boss of a AAA video game when he dies in one night.

Combos that slaughter players are just like anything else, theyre a tool in the toolbox and its really up to the DM whether he wants to use it or not. Players might not be happy but (at least in my style of running and playing) its a perfectly legitimate tactic, just like all the cheesy **** a player could whip up for maximum cheesy combos/min maxing. Its not adversarial, its just providing a challenge. Not everyone plays D&D like a story and a lot of people that I play with want to REALLY feel like blood, sweat, and tears got them to the finish line.