Help on Monks with natural attacks

[ShedShadow]

Hey there!

So here is my issue: I am going to pit my group against a human vampire with 8 monk levels (CR 10). I was wondering how the flurry of blows works with natural attacks, specifically a slam attack.

After doing some research, I came to the conclusion that natural attacks ARE allowed after a flurry of blows is completed, so the routine of the vampmonk would look like this in a full-round attack with flurry (no Str bonuses calculated, just barebones):

UAS at +5
UAS at +5
UAS at +0
(These three all as normal flurry of blows)
Slam at -1
(-5 for secondary natural weapon since an UAS counts as a manufactured weapon, -2 for flurry penalty as per phrase "as does each other attack made that round", then +6 BAB, comes down to -1)

That seems fair enough so far. However, what will happen when I take feats that will allow me to use my natural weapon (slam) in my flurry of blows, i.e. replacing the UAS by slam? This is possible by a feat I currently forgot the name of, but in PF it is called 'Feral Combat Training' (found here: ww.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/). When I only use Slam attacks in my flurry, as allowed by the feat, will I then lose the secondary natural weapon penalty? This because I will not be using any other weapons, and since slam is my primary natural weapon, except when used in conjunction with other manufactured weapons. That would then present me with this (barebones, like before):

Slam at +5
Slam at +5
Slam at +0
(From flurry)
Slam at +4
(+6 BAB, -2 for conjunction with flurry)

I don't know whether it is fair to pit my PC's against a foe that can potentially reduce them to level 0 in a single round, but that is for my conscience to decide. For now: would this work like this? If not, please elucidate. Thanks in advance!

[noob]

In which game?

[TheCountAlucard]

Which game? Which edition?

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Moved to 3.x, as that seemed to be what the poster intended.

[Darrin]

When I only use Slam attacks in my flurry, as allowed by the feat, will I then lose the secondary natural weapon penalty? This because I will not be using any other weapons, and since slam is my primary natural weapon, except when used in conjunction with other manufactured weapons. That would then present me with this (barebones, like before):

Slam at +5
Slam at +5
Slam at +0
(From flurry)
Slam at +4
(+6 BAB, -2 for conjunction with flurry)

I don't know whether it is fair to pit my PC's against a foe that can potentially reduce them to level 0 in a single round, but that is for my conscience to decide. For now: would this work like this? If not, please elucidate. Thanks in advance!

I'm not entirely sure how PF parses this, but I believe if you're using the slam as your primary attack, then it can't be a secondary attack. You'd get three slams at +5/+5/+0, but no fourth slam.

[Karl Aegis]

What you see is what you get in a Flurry of Blows. You get the exact number of attacks it says you get at the bonus it says you get them at with the weapons it says you can use. You do not get to make another full attack when you've already used a full-round action.

[Psyren]

OP mentioned Feral Combat Training so I'm assuming Pathfinder.

Yes, you'll get your full BAB (minus the TWF-esque flurry penalty) to your Slam-Flurry with FCT. With 8 monk levels the routine will actually be +6/+6/+1/+1 (before Haste etc).

Slam is the only weapon you'll need to use in the flurry with FCT, so there will be no secondary penalties (and Slam is a primary attack anyway.)

Note that if you make him an Unchained Monk instead, your routine will be +8/+8/+3 before Haste instead; fewer attacks, but more likely to land. You will also get 1.5x Str to damage this way instead of 1x.

[ShedShadow]

Thank you all for the wonderful responses. Silly of me to not mention the system: 3.5. I will be using a 3.5 system. The thing was that I forgot the name of the feat which will allow natural attacks in a flurry of blows.

As to the natural attacks being allowed after a flurry: on other forums I read that it is ruled the same with a fighter(lvl 20 here and has dragon tail): he gets to make a a full attack action, say with a greatsword, for +20/+15/+10/+5 and then a tail slap at +15 (+20 for BaB and -5 because it is treated as a natural secondary weapon). The same principle would apply with a monk on a flurry of blows that has a natural attack. A lvl 20 monk with a tail slap would then count it so: 5 attacks with flurry of blows for +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 and then a tail slap for +10 (+15 BaB and -5 for secondary natural weapon).

This, however, should not per se be altered upon allowing natural attacks to be used in a flurry because of a feat, because the same amount of attacks are still dealt.

[Psyren]

Thank you all for the wonderful responses. Silly of me to not mention the system: 3.5. I will be using a 3.5 system. The thing was that I forgot the name of the feat which will allow natural attacks in a flurry of blows.

That feat is from Pathfinder which is why I was confused. Are you allowed to use it, or were you simply bringing it up and asking if there was something similar in 3.5? (I don't think so but could be wrong.)

[Dagroth]

There's a Dragon Magazine feat that allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage.

Since most people would consider a Vampire's "Slam" attack to be a punch or claw, a DM might rule that the feat would work.

Thus your level 10 Monk would do standard Unarmed Strike damage +1d8 for the Slam if he had that feat.

[Darrin]

Unorthodox Flurry from Dragon Compendium can be used to flurry with a natural weapon.

[Remuko]

Thank you all for the wonderful responses. Silly of me to not mention the system: 3.5. I will be using a 3.5 system. The thing was that I forgot the name of the feat which will allow natural attacks in a flurry of blows.

As to the natural attacks being allowed after a flurry: on other forums I read that it is ruled the same with a fighter(lvl 20 here and has dragon tail): he gets to make a a full attack action, say with a greatsword, for +20/+15/+10/+5 and then a tail slap at +15 (+20 for BaB and -5 because it is treated as a natural secondary weapon). The same principle would apply with a monk on a flurry of blows that has a natural attack. A lvl 20 monk with a tail slap would then count it so: 5 attacks with flurry of blows for +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 and then a tail slap for +10 (+15 BaB and -5 for secondary natural weapon).

This, however, should not per se be altered upon allowing natural attacks to be used in a flurry because of a feat, because the same amount of attacks are still dealt.

highlighted the problem. Yes a fighter could do as you said. But, if you flurried with your tail attack you couldnt then use the same tail as a secondary natural attack as well.