Alien: Covenant

[Scowling Dragon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0VW6sg50Pk

A Freakin-gain.

More people dumbly walking up to evil eggs and getting their faces attacked by monsters.

Just....ENOUGH

[Kantaki]

A Freakin-gain.

More people dumbly walking up to evil eggs and getting their faces attacked by monsters.

Just....ENOUGH

Isn't that pretty much how the whole franchise started?:smallconfused::smalltongue:

[Donnadogsoth]

A Freakin-gain.

More people dumbly walking up to evil eggs and getting their faces attacked by monsters.

Just....ENOUGH

At least there should be an in-film explanation for why they don't send smart people into Space.

Blecchh.

[Berserk Mecha]

Personally, I'm more miffed about the xenomorphs acting repetitive than about the way that the human characters act. The aliens are some of the most iconic movie monsters and yet they're being presented to the audience as if they're something new and unexpected. Sure, they can still be scary, but we already know what they're capable of and what their weakness are. At least give us a new variant of the typical xenomorph to keep things fresh.

[An Enemy Spy]

As far as I'm concerned, the Alien Franchise died with Alien^3. It really says something that Prometheus is the best one they've made since Aliens.

[90,000]

Remember when popular culture had original ideas.

But I dream, don't I?

[Vogie]

Remember when popular culture had original ideas.

But I dream, don't I?

Sometimes they do.

Other times, Ridley Scott thinks "I need a new Yacht"

[Anonymouswizard]

As far as I'm concerned, the Alien Franchise died with Alien^3. It really says something that Prometheus is the best one they've made since Aliens.

I haven't seen Alien3, but I have to say I enjoyed Prometheas more when it was it's own thing, I hated that pseudo xenomorph at the end. Wasn't ​an awesome must see work of art, bit it wasn't something I regretted seeing.

[golentan]

What's wrong with enjoying a work for what it is? What's wrong with hoping that art is well executed more than hoping it's original? Shakespeare borrowed liberally from other playwrights, especially in his early work, but he did it well and he left a lasting legacy.

Ridley Scott's Alien is one of my favorite films of all time, and the only horror film I really enjoy. Ridley Scott in general is a good director. I'm not sorry to see him get another proper crack at the setting, and hopefully devoid of the baggage left by other directors in the (mostly bad) Ellen Ripley storyline.

Maybe it'll be bad, but the quest for novelty in the series gave us this idiotic abomination:
http://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Alien.jpg

It gave us evil voodoo sharks in Jaws. It gave us Superman IV: the Quest for Peace. And in terms of creating new series, it gave us things like Plan 9 From Outer Space, The Happening, and various other drek.

There's plenty of new ideas in pop culture, just that 90% of them are drek. Same with many of the old ideas. Even if the idea is good, if it's executed poorly the result is unwatchable. Sturgeon's law cuts across everything: genre, time periods, medium, all of it.

So damn it, even if it's just me, I will stand here and proudly proclaim that I think Xenomorphs are an interesting idea and I am hoping that Ridley Scott handles them well a second time, and if the reviews are good I will go see this film! All I ask from artists are non-stupid ideas executed well, and I hope that people will join me in promoting quality over novelty for novelty's sake! You know what else is novel? Liver and pineapple ice cream!

[Scowling Dragon]

What's wrong with hoping that art is well executed more than hoping it's original?

One doesn't counteract the other, and is a false equivalency anyway. Under that argument, you would enjoy a shot for shot remake of a good movie over and over just with new actors and technology.

Because withe each repeat, unless its somehow mind-blowingly better then the last, its just the same stuff. You can be a great actor as possible, with the best lines as possible but I already saw people stupidly poking thier heads at alien eggs at least 3 times now.

Why would I care to see it a 4rth time?

And YES. I would rather take new bad ideas then doing the same good one over and over. Because at least with a bad new idea I can think about how I could do it better.

But with the same idea it either supplants the old one or just is inferior.

Because your missing the point:

The something new was what gave us the original "Alien" in the first place.

We can never GET a new thing that could be as good as aliens if we just keep remaking aliens forever!"

[Donnadogsoth]

We can never GET a new thing that could be as good as aliens if we just keep remaking aliens forever!"

Have the Alien movies basically turned into the Hammer Horror's endless Dracula films?

[The Glyphstone]

Have the Alien movies basically turned into the Hammer Horror's endless Dracula films?

We've yet to see Alien Meets The Harlem Globetrotters, or Alien Meets Abbot and Costello.

[No brains]

You know what I want out of the Alien (or almost any monster movie) series? A nature documentary of the monsters going about their day in their habitat. Like in the vein of Planet Earth or something. Even if they're no longer frightening, they're still neat to look at! I'd also like the see puzzles set up to mess with the monsters like scientists do with kea parrots.

[golentan]

One doesn't counteract the other, and is a false equivalency anyway. Under that argument, you would enjoy a shot for shot remake of a good movie over and over just with new actors and technology.

Because withe each repeat, unless its somehow mind-blowingly better then the last, its just the same stuff. You can be a great actor as possible, with the best lines as possible but I already saw people stupidly poking thier heads at alien eggs at least 3 times now.

Why would I care to see it a 4rth time?

And YES. I would rather take new bad ideas then doing the same good one over and over. Because at least with a bad new idea I can think about how I could do it better.

But with the same idea it either supplants the old one or just is inferior.

Because your missing the point:

The something new was what gave us the original "Alien" in the first place.

We can never GET a new thing that could be as good as aliens if we just keep remaking aliens forever!"

No you couldn't, for the same reason a paint by numbers version of the Mona Lisa won't live up to the original. On the other hand, taking a similar pose and doing a different portrait as an homage can work really well.

And in this case, this is the first time Ridley Scott is returning to Alien properly. It's not... fanfic, is what I'm saying. Which isn't to say fanfic is bad, just that it doesn't belong lumped in with the original. This isn't "J.R.R. Tolkien's 'The Hobbit,' In three parts as told by Peter Jackson" this is a chance for Tolkien to write lord of the rings: Same monsters, same universe, new cast, wider scope.

As best I can tell, this movie has nothing to do with the Nostromo, Ellen Ripley, LV426. There's a whole planet with a whole ecosystem, so maybe we can get away from the tight corridors and vent scares. And that's a good thing. It's a jumping off point by the original author, who probably has no need to make lots of filthy lucre at this point and so is returning because he has found something to say.

And we WILL get a new thing which is as good as the original Alien, we just don't know where it will come from. There's new stuff being made all the time, most of it is bad. Much of the return to old stuff is bad, also. But the good stuff will rise to the top if you give it time, we will all enjoy the next new thing which will change cinematography forever just as we enjoyed the first Matrix, or Psycho, or Casablanca, or whatever you wanna talk of. Most of which didn't actually change cinematography forever, but did introduce some new techniques for at least a bit.

But most of the new stuff will be bad, just as most of the old stuff was bad, and in the meantime when an artist I like starts making stuff similar to stuff I like, I'm gonna keep my ears perked to hear the first reviews.

Also, the thing with the eggs is kinda a silly insult. Most of the characters who lumber into the egg trap thusfar have no foreknowledge and are usually wearing spacesuits at the time. If you're in protective clothing in an anoxic environment, and you see a big brown lump, and you have no foreknowledge that this is a lethal organism or that you are in a horror film, are you that convinced that you know to keep the minimum 5 meter safe radius?

Edit: Also, No brains, that would be a nifty thing... Maybe they could give it to us as a DVD extra at some point... :smallbiggrin:

[warty goblin]

You know what I want out of the Alien (or almost any monster movie) series? A nature documentary of the monsters going about their day in their habitat. Like in the vein of Planet Earth or something. Even if they're no longer frightening, they're still neat to look at! I'd also like the see puzzles set up to mess with the monsters like scientists do with kea parrots.

I love the hell out of this idea.

Then you could make it horror again by having it be an alien nature documentary, set on Earth halfway through it being terraformed for its new residents. Film it so the monsters are the protagonist animals, the human survivors prey - the monsters being weapons and tools of the terraforming process. Use the same sorts of language for the humans we use in nature documentaries - "the mother has only hours to find water and shelter, or the infant will die."

[lord_khaine]

Also, the thing with the eggs is kinda a silly insult. Most of the characters who lumber into the egg trap thusfar have no foreknowledge and are usually wearing spacesuits at the time. If you're in protective clothing in an anoxic environment, and you see a big brown lump, and you have no foreknowledge that this is a lethal organism or that you are in a horror film, are you that convinced that you know to keep the minimum 5 meter safe radius?


I think thats a pretty good point, it is really easy to spot traps in hindsight. And exploding eggs are something that would takes most people by complete surprise.

[The Troubadour]

What's wrong with enjoying a work for what it is? What's wrong with hoping that art is well executed more than hoping it's original? Shakespeare borrowed liberally from other playwrights, especially in his early work, but he did it well and he left a lasting legacy.

In addition to that being a false equivalence, Shakespeare borrowed liberally from other sources, but he always did his own thing with it - "MacBeth" and "King Lear" aren't the same thing as "Holinshed's Chronicles", "Hamlet" isn't the same thing as Saxo's story about Amleth, and so on and so forth.

[137beth]

Remember when popular culture had original ideas.

Yea. Back in my day, we had plays like Hamlet, Prince of Denmark. Except that play wasn't original in the slightest: it is a longer, drawn out rip-off of Aeschylus' The Libation Bearers with a bigger budget. But then, it's not like Aeschylus' writings were original either. Every single character in The Libation Bearers had already been described centuries earlier by Homer and other poets, and they in turn were recycling stories and characters from earlier oral tradition.

I guess what I'm saying is that no, I don't remember the very first work of fiction. I'm not that old. Nothing after that was original.

[Scowling Dragon]

I guess what I'm saying is that no, I don't remember the very first work of fiction. I'm not that old. Nothing after that was original.

I remember a time before that! When people were less defensive about which media they consumed and didn't make false equivalency arguments...Those where the days!

[Rogar Demonblud]

A-Freakin-gain.

More people dumbly walking up to evil eggs and getting their faces attacked by monsters.

Just....ENOUGH

People might learn about this faster if the Xenomorphs didn't keep killing off everyone they encounter. Kind of derails the learning curve.

[137beth]

We've yet to see Alien Meets The Harlem Globetrotters, or Alien Meets Abbot and Costello.

Well, Rogue One showed us that we have the technology for a dead actor to appear in a new movie. There's no technical reason why they couldn't do a meeting between CGI Abbot and Costello and a xenomorph.

[No brains]

Well, Rogue One showed us that we have the technology for a dead actor to appear in a new movie. There's no technical reason why they couldn't do a meeting between CGI Abbot and Costello and a xenomorph.

Now seeing THAT again would be scary! :smalleek:

[warty goblin]

Now seeing THAT again would be scary! :smalleek:

Yeah, every scene with Tarkin in it made me wonder why nobody seemed to be noticing the robot wearing a bad skin suit giving orders to everybody. And Leia at the end was just scary. That wasn't the uncanny valley, that was the bottom of the uncanny lake.

[Dr.Samurai]

A Freakin-gain.

More people dumbly walking up to evil eggs and getting their faces attacked by monsters.

Just....ENOUGH
I would walk up to a giant unknown egg. Humans are curious creatures. I also inspect strange noises. I like to confront the unknown instead of dealing with ambiguity.

[The Troubadour]

Yea. Back in my day, we had plays like Hamlet, Prince of Denmark. Except that play wasn't original in the slightest: it is a longer, drawn out rip-off of Aeschylus' The Libation Bearers with a bigger budget.

That you think "Hamlet" is the same story as "Coephoroi" tells me you haven't read either play. :-)

[Scowling Dragon]

I would walk up to a giant unknown egg. Humans are curious creatures. I also inspect strange noises. I like to confront the unknown instead of dealing with ambiguity.

Thats why you would not be on a science team on a bajillion dollar spaceship to colonize/ explore planets, best in your field.

[golentan]

Thats why you would not be on a science team on a bajillion dollar spaceship to colonize/ explore planets, best in your field.

One: the human explorers in the alien universe are not the best in their field, generally speaking. They're working stiffs who argue about not getting enough breaks and complain about corporate memos.

Two: Have you ever met any biologists? We're a curious, xenophilic breed as a rule, though we can be counted on to wear gloves, breathmasks, and eye protection in potentially infectious environments.

Which brings me to the crux of several of my complaints, in three: Complaining about things you have little to no information about.

[90,000]

I guess what I'm saying is that no, I don't remember the very first work of fiction. I'm not that old. Nothing after that was original.

A line of influence and a direct sequel?

Not exactly comparable, bud.

Unless you wanna say Ulysses is functionally the same thing as The Odyssey.

If that's the case we're going to have to take it outside.

[Callos_DeTerran]

You know what I want out of the Alien (or almost any monster movie) series? A nature documentary of the monsters going about their day in their habitat. Like in the vein of Planet Earth or something. Even if they're no longer frightening, they're still neat to look at! I'd also like the see puzzles set up to mess with the monsters like scientists do with kea parrots.


I love the hell out of this idea.

Then you could make it horror again by having it be an alien nature documentary, set on Earth halfway through it being terraformed for its new residents. Film it so the monsters are the protagonist animals, the human survivors prey - the monsters being weapons and tools of the terraforming process. Use the same sorts of language for the humans we use in nature documentaries - "the mother has only hours to find water and shelter, or the infant will die."

I also love the hell out of the idea, not least of which because it would be utterly fascinating and horrifying to see the FULL Xenomorph life-cycle in action. We only ever get to see face hugger-chest burster-xenomorph. Where do Queen's come from? Do they have other uses for their prey? Where's that resin they cover their hives in come from? Are there other variants than the regular xenomorph? 'cause we always see them in other Aliens media!

You don't even need to have humans in it at all at that point...though..it would reduce the budget considerably I imagine. Not to mention it would be a legitimate challenge to...try to make the Xenomorphs look like the protagonists of a nature documentary but pretty horrific to watch them do some of their bloody business to people while a narrator lovingly tries to portray it as some beautiful thing rather than the aberration it is.

Can we get this idea for more movie monsters? Pretty please?

[Frozen_Feet]

One doesn't counteract the other, and is a false equivalency anyway. Under that argument, you would enjoy a shot for shot remake of a good movie over and over just with new actors and technology.


And why wouldn't he?

Think for a moment. Before modern technology made recording and copying those records so cheap as to be an afterthought, how did plays, songs, stories etc. stay in circulation? "Shot for shot remake with new actors and technology."

If any piece of entertainment is worth re-experiencing, it's also worth re-enacting. I'd probably be just as happy watching four different re-enactions of Alien as I was watching a recording of the original movie four times, provided the production is on the same level as the original. Just like I'd be happy to listen to four different bands play the same song, provided all the musicians are equally skilled.

In practice, quality of re-enactions vary, because skills of the re-enactors vary, so a re-enaction might fail to be as good. A recording, on the other hand, stays the same over repetitions. But that is not an issue of "originality".

Likewise repetition can get boring, but that is not a problem of originality either. Watch a recording of the first Alien enough times, and it will probably bore just as well as watching a similar number of quality re-enactments. You can have too much of a good thing.

I completely reject the idea that re-enactments are doomed to be inferior to the "original".

[JustSomeGuy]

I also love the hell out of the idea, not least of which because it would be utterly fascinating and horrifying to see the FULL Xenomorph life-cycle in action. We only ever get to see face hugger-chest burster-xenomorph. Where do Queen's come from? Do they have other uses for their prey? Where's that resin they cover their hives in come from? Are there other variants than the regular xenomorph? 'cause we always see them in other Aliens media!

You don't even need to have humans in it at all at that point...though..it would reduce the budget considerably I imagine. Not to mention it would be a legitimate challenge to...try to make the Xenomorphs look like the protagonists of a nature documentary but pretty horrific to watch them do some of their bloody business to people while a narrator* lovingly tries to portray it as some beautiful thing rather than the aberration it is.

Can we get this idea for more movie monsters? Pretty please?

*Morgan Freeman or Stephen Fry

[Dr.Samurai]

Thats why you would not be on a science team on a bajillion dollar spaceship to colonize/ explore planets, best in your field.
1. I don't know what science team/best in their field you're referring to. It's not the crew of the Nostromo. It's not the marines in Aliens. Surely you're not referring to the prisoners in Alien 3. Or the thugs in Alien Resurrection? Are you just talking about the biologist with the snake worm in Prometheus?

2. I don't agree that simply because someone is best in their field and a scientist, they may not make "mistakes" when confronted with something like a facehugger egg for the first time. They are not robots and can still feel things like curiosity/wonder, fear, excitement, etc. and have lapses in judgment.

3. I suppose they could make a movie where the scientists perfectly handle every situation. In that case (if we're just calling the crew of Nosotromo scientists now), how would they inspect the alien egg, or approach it to tag it, or bag it?

4. I suppose we could make a movie where Kane avoided the eggs. Sounds like a fun movie. Or maybe we could make a movie where Ash doesn't override the lock on the ship, and Ripley's order to follow quarantine regulations stands. And the alien pops out in the airlock and has nowhere to go and Dallas and Lambert kill it. And then the movie ends. Cool.

[warty goblin]

I also love the hell out of the idea, not least of which because it would be utterly fascinating and horrifying to see the FULL Xenomorph life-cycle in action. We only ever get to see face hugger-chest burster-xenomorph. Where do Queen's come from? Do they have other uses for their prey? Where's that resin they cover their hives in come from? Are there other variants than the regular xenomorph? 'cause we always see them in other Aliens media!

You don't even need to have humans in it at all at that point...though..it would reduce the budget considerably I imagine. Not to mention it would be a legitimate challenge to...try to make the Xenomorphs look like the protagonists of a nature documentary but pretty horrific to watch them do some of their bloody business to people while a narrator lovingly tries to portray it as some beautiful thing rather than the aberration it is.

Can we get this idea for more movie monsters? Pretty please?

I was sort of springboarding that off an idea that's been rattling about the back of my mind for a while, which goes something like this. Hordes of alien biological horrors like the zerg or tyrannids are really cool, but the bit where somehow or another shred space-tanks and launch themselves into space and so forth kinda blows up my suspension of disbelief. Biology and rocket engines mix poorly.

So rather than have them be an independent species/faction whatever, I figured it'd make more sense for them to be designed by a more conventionally technologically advanced alien species with too many biology majors. The bug horde would still be extremely useful as a terraforming agent and weapon of war, but not in terms of waging big space battles or fighting giant tank engagements or anything like that.

No, the bug horde is essentially a way to bomb an entire planet stealthily and cheap. Not a fortified fortress world with superb orbital defenses and legions of space marines hanging about, but the sort of industrial/agricultural world that makes up most of the production base for humanity. Shoot the atmosphere of some planet or other full of spores, then wait. The bugs begin to propagate, altering the atmosphere and biosphere and eating everything. Soon enough the planet has to devote more and more of its damaged economy to fighting the bugs, and if they don't stomp out the bugs soon enough, the entire place will be rendered essentially uninhabitable for humans. The weapon itself is ridiculously cheap, and even if most of the infestations fail, it'll cost a lot more for humans to clean up than it does to launch them in the first place. And if it works, the aliens get a nice terraformed planet, all ready for aspiring colonists to start raising new hivelings in the acid-tree swamps.


So that's your setup. The frame narrative is a bunch of human military and civilian leadership watching an intercepted alien propaganda movie about this process, taken at the recently totally overrun colony of New Harmony or somewhere. So we watch it as humans, and the human characters react like we react, but the body of the film itself is from the alien's point of view. And you could intercut the two points of view, so you get both the human reactions, and the message that the aliens really do view us as nothing more than foodstuff for their bio-genetic monsters.

[The Troubadour]

Think for a moment. Before modern technology made recording and copying those records so cheap as to be an afterthought, how did plays, songs, stories etc. stay in circulation? "Shot for shot remake with new actors and technology."

I'd argue the exact opposite: when it comes to theatre, every new enactment of a play is an entirely new experience, even if it does share text with earlier versions. Just compare, for instance, the portrayal of Lady MacBeth in Orson Welles' version and Roman Polanski's one.


I completely reject the idea that re-enactments are doomed to be inferior to the "original".

Perhaps not necessarily inferior, but what's the point of watching Disney's live-action version of "Beauty and the Beast", for instance, instead of just re-watching the original cartoon, which even had superior singers?

[Vogie]

I'd argue the exact opposite: when it comes to theatre, every new enactment of a play is an entirely new experience, even if it does share text with earlier versions. Just compare, for instance, the portrayal of Lady MacBeth in Orson Welles' version and Roman Polanski's one.



Perhaps not necessarily inferior, but what's the point of watching Disney's live-action version of "Beauty and the Beast", for instance, instead of just re-watching the original cartoon, which even had superior singers?

The latter of your statements is answered by the former. They're two different movies, with the same source material. The animated version has superior singers, but dated visuals and is riddled with plot holes. The live has live action, superb visuals, and they've added material to either fill or explain away the plot holes of the original (and open a few new ones). Which is better? Although they share source material and some songs, they're entirely separate movies.


*Morgan Freeman or Stephen Fry
Or David Attenborough

[The Troubadour]

Although they share source material and some songs, they're entirely separate movies.

They really aren't. :-) Much like Disney's earlier live action "Cinderella", it's a by-the-numbers remake which comes really close to being just a shot-by-shot remake. That's entirely different from, say, Orson Welles, Roman Polanski and Akira Kurosawa taking the same Shakespearean tragedy and retelling it in three very different ways while still being faithful to the original plot.
Plus, many of the "plot holes" in the original "Beauty and the Beast" are answerable by simply paying more attention to it.

[Fishybugs]

I would walk up to a giant unknown egg. Humans are curious creatures. I also inspect strange noises. I like to confront the unknown instead of dealing with ambiguity.

It's not until your soundtrack changes that you need to start worrying.

[Frozen_Feet]

Perhaps not necessarily inferior, but what's the point of watching Disney's live-action version of "Beauty and the Beast", for instance, instead of just re-watching the original cartoon, which even had superior singers?

What's the point of rewatching the original? After all, you've heard all the songs already, no need to listen to the same stuff twice, right?

Oh wait. Could it be you can actually get enjoyment from the same stuff more than once, and anything worth re-experiencing is in principle worth re-enacting, just like I just said?

Seriously. Your question isn't an argument against my point, it ignores it entirely. You even bake in your own answer by implying the re-enactment is strictly worse. But that has nothing to do with its originality.

[The Troubadour]

Seriously. Your question isn't an argument against my point, it ignores it entirely. You even bake in your own answer by implying the re-enactment is strictly worse. But that has nothing to do with its originality.

I'm not ignoring your argument, I'm saying your premise is flawed. :-)

[Callos_DeTerran]

I was sort of springboarding that off an idea that's been rattling about the back of my mind for a while, which goes something like this. Hordes of alien biological horrors like the zerg or tyrannids are really cool, but the bit where somehow or another shred space-tanks and launch themselves into space and so forth kinda blows up my suspension of disbelief. Biology and rocket engines mix poorly.

So rather than have them be an independent species/faction whatever, I figured it'd make more sense for them to be designed by a more conventionally technologically advanced alien species with too many biology majors. The bug horde would still be extremely useful as a terraforming agent and weapon of war, but not in terms of waging big space battles or fighting giant tank engagements or anything like that.

No, the bug horde is essentially a way to bomb an entire planet stealthily and cheap. Not a fortified fortress world with superb orbital defenses and legions of space marines hanging about, but the sort of industrial/agricultural world that makes up most of the production base for humanity. Shoot the atmosphere of some planet or other full of spores, then wait. The bugs begin to propagate, altering the atmosphere and biosphere and eating everything. Soon enough the planet has to devote more and more of its damaged economy to fighting the bugs, and if they don't stomp out the bugs soon enough, the entire place will be rendered essentially uninhabitable for humans. The weapon itself is ridiculously cheap, and even if most of the infestations fail, it'll cost a lot more for humans to clean up than it does to launch them in the first place. And if it works, the aliens get a nice terraformed planet, all ready for aspiring colonists to start raising new hivelings in the acid-tree swamps.


So that's your setup. The frame narrative is a bunch of human military and civilian leadership watching an intercepted alien propaganda movie about this process, taken at the recently totally overrun colony of New Harmony or somewhere. So we watch it as humans, and the human characters react like we react, but the body of the film itself is from the alien's point of view. And you could intercut the two points of view, so you get both the human reactions, and the message that the aliens really do view us as nothing more than foodstuff for their bio-genetic monsters.

I'd watch the hell out of that.

For the record, there is a similar concept for how aliens would occupy a relatively (to them) defenseless planet in d20 Apocalypse but instead of releasing a horde of bugs they release biological weapons that fill a similar role of killing off the native occupants while also terraforming the planet (to a degree). Becomes an apocalypse setting instead of a sci-fi one because humans make the various virus and bacteria mutate trying to combat it and it ends up infecting the invaders as well.

It was a really cool idea!

And clearly the narrator would be Sigourney Weaver, just for the homage to Ripley..plus Weaver is a solid narrator.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm not ignoring your argument, I'm saying your premise is flawed. :-)

You've not explained how, however. Your argument only covered a part of theater, it didn't cover, for example, music or oral tradition, where special care is regularly taken to repeat a piece in an exact form. No medium is limited to strict re-enactions, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that before cheap mass recording, re-enactment filled its place, and still does.

Again: you're asking me why I would watch a re-enactment, when I could re-watch the original. But why re-watch the original to begin with? It's no longer a new, or "original" experience anymore than the re-enactment is.

Imagine you are presented with two cupcakes. They are made with the same recipe and same ingredients. However, when you reach for the one on the left, I ask: "why are you picking that one? That is the second cupcake I baked today. Why not take the first one?"

Let's suppose you heed my advice and eat the one on the right. A moment later, I catch you reaching for the second cupcake. "Why?", I ask, "Why would you reach for the second cupcake? You already ate the first, the original. Why eat this poor copy?"

If you are a sane person, you would probably look at me oddly. Because the answer is obvious: the first cupcake was good, and I have a reason to expect a similar cupcake will be just as good.

In the same way, a re-enacted play, movie, song, or whatever, can be good for the exact same reasons as the original. That it was made second doesn't automatically diminish its worth. It's a choice between equal things, both choices are equally valid.

That's why you implying the live-action Beauty and the Beast is inferior is baking in your own answer. You beforehand present them as inequal so you don't have to tackle the issue of choosing between two equal things.

[The Troubadour]

You've not explained how, however.

My bad! Basically, you're arguing that re-watching the original several times is exactly the same as making a shot-by-shot remake. I'd argue two things:

1) from the point of view of an individual, the first time you watched something is an original experience, and those feelings stay with you with every re-watch (and yes, that may lead to someone watching a remake first and considering that version the "original", so to speak); thus, re-watching the same movie* does not provide the same experience as someone remaking it.

* Well, any work of art, really, but I'm sticking to drama for the purposes of this discussion.

2) from the point of view of the history of Art as a whole, if all you're going to do is exactly the same thing as has been done before, without even trying to add your voice to it... Why bother? The end result may not be objectively inferior, but if it's been done before, does it really need to be redone? Does "Casablanca" need a remake just because it was filmed in black and white, for instance?

To borrow your cupcake analogy: in theatre, every re-enactment is a different cupcake. They may all share the same recipe, but they were baked by different people at different times, which necessarily creates a difference in the cupcakes' tastes; besides, many of those people tried to put their own spin on the recipe. You could argue that it's the same thing with movie remakes, but let's be honest: how often do we have a "Seven Samurai"-to-"The Magnificent Seven" situation, and how often do we have a "Let the Right One In"-to-"Let Me In" situation? Mind, I'm not saying "Let Me In" is inferior to "Let the Right One In", but I am saying: why not just use that energy to try and create something different?

(The obvious answer being "money", of course.)


That's why you implying the live-action Beauty and the Beast is inferior is baking in your own answer. You beforehand present them as inequal so you don't have to tackle the issue of choosing between two equal things.

Except they objectively are unequal; just compare, say, Emma Watson's singing with Paige O'Hara's. Even the few things they did try to change were mostly cosmetic, or added plot holes where there were none. But it's better if I don't continue on this subject, I don't want to derail the thread. :-)

[Frozen_Feet]

For 1), you may have a point, as it's a facet of human psychology. On the other hand, I don't think you can convince me that re-enactments can't trigger the same memories and feelings as a re-enactment. That'd need some serious empirical psychological research.

For 2), however, the answer is already given in my earlier posts: re-enactment serves the same purpose as recording.

So why do we record things? To preserve them. Reality is such that everything erodes. Without active effort, even the best works fade from public memory.

Again, the current technological environment where copying and spreading copies is trivial, serves to obscure that. Things were re-enacted in precise form because that was the only way to keep them in living memory. This practice still exists. For example, songs are played note for note, pitch for pitch because without someone doing so, those songs will vanish. The "originals" haven't always been, and won't always be, around for easy perusal.

[The Troubadour]

For 2), however, the answer is already given in my earlier posts: re-enactment serves the same purpose as recording.

So why do we record things? To preserve them. Reality is such that everything erodes. Without active effort, even the best works fade from public memory.

But not every performance of "Romeo and Juliet" was exactly the same, nor did they try to be! Likewise, things weren't re-enacted in precise form. Oral literature, by its very nature, changes over time - heck, it changes with every different performer. Two hypothetical Portuguese troubadours might perform the exact same "cantiga" - say, Martim Codax' "Ondas do mar de Vigo" -, but it wouldn't sound exactly the same, particularly if both performed it at different evenings.

I mean, think of bands playing live today. Does Queen + Adam Lambert's performance of "We Will Rock You" sound exactly the same as, say, Queen's performance of the same song in the first Rock in Rio event? Or, heck, that Freddie sang the song live in exactly the same manner as he did in the studio? Especially throughout his career?

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying there was never an attempt to preserve performances exactly like the originals, especially in folk literature; I'm arguing that such an endeavour was futile, particularly before the popularisation of the written word.

[Frozen_Feet]

If you think things aren't or haven't been re-enacted in precise form, you are simply wrong. Again, nowhere am I arguing any artform is limited to re-enaction. Of course variations, personal takes, innovations etc. exists. That isn't particularly relevant to my argument.

Similarly irrelevant are statements like "oral tradition changes by its very nature" or how "it's different because people are different". Those changes exist due to limitations of using living humans as a medium. They're not variant for variance's sake. They don't on their own mean the purpose of re-enactment is something other than preserving information.

EDIT: your conclusion that "it was futile" is a non-sequitur. We have examples of oral tradition carrying stories across centuries before being codified in written form. Codifying those stories wouldn't have ever been invented without those traditions. Re-enacting a spoken story as written word is part of the same continuum.

[The Glyphstone]

But not every performance of "Romeo and Juliet" was exactly the same, nor did they try to be! Likewise, things weren't re-enacted in precise form. Oral literature, by its very nature, changes over time - heck, it changes with every different performer. Two hypothetical Portuguese troubadours might perform the exact same "cantiga" - say, Martim Codax' "Ondas do mar de Vigo" -, but it wouldn't sound exactly the same, particularly if both performed it at different evenings.


I'm reminded in particular of the 1996 R+J remake with Leonardo DiCaprio. They kept the dialogue from the original play nearly word-for-word, while still altering the setting and plot to modern-day California.

[The Troubadour]

If you think things aren't or haven't been re-enacted in precise form, you are simply wrong.

No, I'm arguing that such re-enactments don't add anything to an artistic body. They may provide fulfillment on an individual level - say, a person listening to a CD or watching a DVD -, and they may fulfill a commercial need - say, releasing the tenth or so "Greatest Hits of the Beatles" album -, but no matter how many times "Help" is re-released, it won't add anything to the original recording.


EDIT: your conclusion that "it was futile" is a non-sequitur. We have examples of oral tradition carrying stories across centuries before being codified in written form.

True, but they weren't unchanging throughout all that time. How do you think Grendel became a descendant of Cain, for instance? Or that Aeschylus and Euripides wrote entirely different plays while drawing on the same myths (I'm thinking specifically of the myth of Orestes and Electra, here)? Heck, "The Iliad" was recorded in writing, and even back then there were conflicting traditions regarding Helen of Troy's culpability and situation after the war!


I'm reminded in particular of the 1996 R+J remake with Leonardo DiCaprio. They kept the dialogue from the original play nearly word-for-word, while still altering the setting and plot to modern-day California.

Indeed!

[Frozen_Feet]

No, I'm arguing that such re-enactments don't add anything to an artistic body.

Once again, modern technology is clouding your judgement. In a world without cheap copies, re-enactments were the artistic body. Re-enactments preserve works and make them more widely available, just like records do. You honesty think that doesn't add anything?


True, but they weren't unchanging throughout all that time. How do you think Grendel became a descendant of Cain, for instance? Or that Aeschylus and Euripides wrote entirely different plays while drawing on the same myths (I'm thinking specifically of the myth of Orestes and Electra, here)? Heck, "The Iliad" was recorded in writing, and even back then there were conflicting traditions regarding Helen of Troy's culpability and situation after the war!

So? Again, the variation in re-enactments doesn't mean their purpose isn't preserving information. Such variation doesn't make them futile. Claiming so is as foolish as claiming that saving data on floppy disks was futile because we now use USB drives.

You're simply moving further and further in history in order to prove a general case for re-enactments being inferior to the "originals", in order to avoid the concept of a re-enactment being equally worthwhile to the original. But such proof doesn't actually exist, you just keep digging the pit because you assume it does before-the-fact.

[The Troubadour]

Once again, modern technology is clouding your judgement. In a world without cheap copies, re-enactments were the artistic body.

What you seem to be missing is that this "perfect re-enactment" was never the point of artistic expression. The point of the "Iliad", for instance, wasn't to preserve the body of oral traditions regarding Achilles' wrath. Look at Athenian tragedy: its point was "kátharsis", not preserving the myths of, say, Oedipus. In fact, those tragedies assumed the audience was already familiar with said myths.

So yeah, outside of perhaps the earliest stages of oral literature, the point of art wasn't just "preserving information".

Besides, even if I were to concede the argument on this, we ARE living in a period where easy replication is the standard. Don't you think that undercuts your agument?


You're simply moving further and further in history in order to prove a general case for re-enactments being inferior to the "originals", [...]

Actually, you're the only one who's used the adjective "inferior"; if I had to pick an adjective, I'd use "needless".

[Legato Endless]

Remember when popular culture had original ideas.

But I dream, don't I?

I mean I'm quite confused by the assertion. Television has evolved markedly in the last several decades and is more cooly libertine with previous ironclad rules of the format than ever before. Between the golden age of anthology television and the hard serialization of new Millennium lays an era of conservativism marked with nudging innovative where excellence was seen more as an exception than a rule by critics such as Horace Newcomb. Whatever glut exists today (such as tedious superhero soaps) certainly existed back then but coupled with far more stricture.

The film industry is certainly painfully risk averse at times, but things were worse once before the auteurs had freer reign in the 60-70s and theaters were directly owned by studios. Film as a medium reached a nadir with cheap quick produced formulaic drivel that audiences rejected hard the moment they had economic freedom to pick what they wanted.

It's not like a cursory inspection of literature of the last half millenium doesn't reveal a slog of forgotten imitators to the classics we do remember. And to be duly skeptical, I rather doubt the originality of plays of antiquity being swiped back and forth by 137ben and Troubadour would be quite as arguable had the greater majority of them actually survived to the present. Any medium would look robustly creative if you (conservatively) hacked away 98% of its output.

[Frozen_Feet]

I already said several times that no form of art is limited to re-enactment. That still doesn't mean it was never done, and that it wasn't done to preserve information. It merely means art can be used for other things as well.

For example, kata in martial arts, literally "forms", exist to preserve information through flawless repetition. New kata, and new variations and interpretations of existing kata, get invented all the time. But the old kata are the backbone of several whole arts, because they are the tool for teaching what those styles are about.

As for modern technology undercutting my argument? I started this line of discussion by noting that modern technology makes people unable to appreciate re-enaction. The effect of technology has been part of my argument from the start.

But let's talk more, about technology. Not long ago it was exceedingly common for families to own pianos, and for people to know how to play them. Why? Because being able to play yourself was the primary way of being able to listen to music at home. People learned to play classic songs note for note, and sing them pitch for pitch, as part of their general education.

Then records became cheaply available. It was no longer necessary to learn how to do music to listen to it. As a result, musical literacy and musical skill plummeted, and pianos are no longer common at home.

That's one important thing about re-enactments you're missing, which cannot be replaced by records. In order to re-enact a work, someone has to learn all the relevant skills and do all the work to achieve that. Look at history of painting. How did thousands of now-famous painters begin? By copying (or less generously, forging) paintings by old masters. Look at history of music. How did millions of musicians begin? By learning to play songs of earlier musicians.

Once you approach re-enactments as not just a consumer, but as producer, you will quickly see what the need for them is: they teach new people how to do things. Re-enactments add to the artistic body by creating more artists.

[No brains]

It's funny that there's a discussion about imitation and repetition in a thread also discussing an adaptive parasitic life form.:smallbiggrin:

[An Enemy Spy]

Currently I have no interest in this movie, but if it turns out to be an Alien/Halo crossover(hence the name Covenant) I'll have to change my mind.

[The Troubadour]

Once you approach re-enactments as not just a consumer, but as producer, you will quickly see what the need for them is: they teach new people how to do things. Re-enactments add to the artistic body by creating more artists.

You've been moving the goalposts, but fair enough, that's a good argument - although it's also predicated on said artists eventually moving beyond simple re-enactments. For instance, I'd ask whether Ridley Scott would have added anything to Art in general or his own body of work specifically if it turns out "Covenant" really is just a re-enactment of "Alien".

[-D-]

Watched it. It was Severly meh.


Well film starts off nicely, people getting infected by spores, instead of rubbing their head in vagina snakes like Prometheus.

One flashbang later and we see David helping our crew get safe. Well those that watch Prometheus know how "good" David is, so there is some decent tension. We see David mourn Shaw, and him taking vengeance on the *******s that made the weapon. He did say Shaw helped him and he loved her. Maybe he isn't completely evil.

Then he tries to communicate with Xenomorph... Ok, yeah he's about as evil as offspring of Satan and Cthulu. Then Captain Chris does only thing right in this movie by killing David's chat Xenomorph. Captain, continuing with tradition, follows the Xeno-whisperer David into a lair, where David says to shove his head into an egg and Captain Chris obliges, dying as he lived, one fatal mistake after another.

Afterwards there is kissing scene between David and not-David. And like all Tsunderes. David kills not-David. . We found from not-Ripley that David killed Shaw - wow, hard to believe after he killed like two other humans. Then then David and not-David, fight again. And not-not-David wins!

Finally, our crew is safe aboard Colony Ship Hinderburg Titanic Nostromo. But oh no, there is weird alien organism on board. I wonder if it's a rat. No wait. It's the Alien. After several Xenomorph ladden gorn scenes, the crew manages to flush the alien.

Finally, our crew is safe aboard Colony Ship Ishimura Von Braun Nostromo and ready to go to cryo sleep. But it turns out Not-David was actually Not-Not-David (i.e. regular David), and he proceeds to place Xenomorphs eggs into faces of passengers. Aww.

This movie is - disappointing. Not to mention they seem to credit David as the creator of the eggs and/or regular Xenomorphs. Which means there is either a plot hole or a more hilarious note - i.e. after he is done wrecking Origano 6 , David backtracked and loaded another or similar ship and crashed it into another colony. Which honestly sounds funny. That or people decided to inhabit Prometheus Planet, where there is a giant ship and large city filled with charcoal bodies, while David relocated the eggs into the abandoned ship.

[Psyren]

At least there should be an in-film explanation for why they don't send smart people into Space.

Blecchh.

Just watched it and really, this explanation is what I was hoping for.

It's not hard to make the screw-ups more believable. Mechanical failure, greedy corporations that view human life as expendable entries in a ledger, or the machinations of a lone super-intelligent Machiavellian puppet-master (they even have one now.)

But the sheer idiocy on display took me completely out of the movie repeatedly. It was entertaining, but more as a comedy of errors than the gritty sci-fi horror it was trying to be.

Honestly I was rooting for David the entire time - the humans in this universe should not be allowed to breed.

[Legato Endless]

As tediously predictable as it is ferociously forgettable. Watch the first two films again. Hope the franchise dies. And yes, apparently the only smart people in the Alien universe are blue collar. Higher education appears to have weeded out any intelligent decision makers. I blame Weyland Yutani.

...with David as Scott's author insert, and Scott were 12 again, that would explain a lot about the plot concerning these films. The only scene I really enjoyed was when Walter drops the upgrade line and starts kicking David's ass. But no! David casts distracting monologue! It's super effective. I don't mind a villainous mastermind winning, but boy he didn't earn this.

Also, beyond the completely unnecessary origin story we got, the Aliens really didn't need one, this creates yet another plot hole. If David created the Xenomorph, why are there pictures of Xenos in Prometheus? Did David go back in time? Is David God? Should anyone care?

[Bartmanhomer]

That movie was scary as heck. I enjoy the movie. There was so much violence and horror for an obvious sci-fi flick. This is my first Aliens movie to be honest. And this movie going to nominated and win so many awards. So I'll give this movie a 5 out of 5 stars. :biggrin:

[BWR]

This is my first Aliens movie to be honest. :

Watch the first two and get back to us.

[Razade]

Watch the first two and get back to us.

Yeah this.

Sorry Bartman, your movie review in light of the knowledge that you've never seen an actual Alien movie...doesn't do much for me.

[Bartmanhomer]

Watch the first two and get back to us.

What about the other Aliens movie?

[BWR]

What about the other Aliens movie?

3 is OK but basically a rehash of 1. 4(Resurrection) is not worth your time despite an amusing scene here and there. Prometheus was a mess. A pretty mess but a mess nonetheless. It started off with me wanting to pull my hair out in frustration at the acts of some 'archaeologists' and did not get better. It is also helpful in understanding what happened in Covenant.

[Bartmanhomer]

3 is OK but basically a rehash of 1. 4(Resurrection) is not worth your time despite an amusing scene here and there. Prometheus was a mess. A pretty mess but a mess nonetheless. It started off with me wanting to pull my hair out in frustration at the acts of some 'archaeologists' and did not get better. It is also helpful in understanding what happened in Covenant.Oh I see then. Well OK I'll take your word for it.

[BWR]

Oh I see then. Well OK I'll take your word for it.

By all means, watch the movies if you want to. It's just that a lot/most of the people who like the Alien franchise feel that everything after Aliens was not as good.

[Bartmanhomer]

By all means, watch the movies if you want to. It's just that a lot/most of the people who like the Alien franchise feel that everything after Aliens was not as good.

Sure. I will watched it. :smile:

[Pilum]

Just got out. It was ok, passed the time enjoyably enough. Does it reach the heights of the first two? In my opinion no, but doesn't make it bad, per se.

One real misstep, for me, at the end.
ok, I've seen enough Genre to know that's really Evil Twin. Surely. Except he's being very helpful and there are no obvious tells. Hmm, maybe...

And then he spills it. In a rather awkward manner. Oh, you were so close...

For me, much better to have had him hesitate slightly, smile and say of course he'll build the cabin. Send Daniels to sleep and then we get The Reveal, possibly only making it explicit (with the Name coding) AFTER the use of Wagner drops the act. Oh well. Would be interested to know if they DID shoot that ending but test audiences didn't like it...

[Ramza00]

What about the other Aliens movie?

The Alien Movie Franchise pretty much follows the pattern of the Star Wars Movies if there was no ROTJ

Alien1 and Aliens2 are kind of like Star Wars a New Hope and Empire

Aliens 3, Alien Resurrection4, and the Alien vs Predator and AvP Requiem is like the Star Wars Prequels

Prometheus is kind of like Star Wars The Force Awakens

-----

If you really want to watch more than Alien and Aliens go right ahead. Just understand that they should be seen as separate from the two movies that made the franchise famous, just like the Star Wars movies that came after 1983 are not the reason why Star Wars is famous...In fact you can argue the Alien movies after Aliens is just Hollywood trying to cash in on a successful franchise with bad plots, bad directors, and bad cgi just like you can argue the same with the Star Wars Prequels and The Force Awakens

[Psyren]

I'd love to put together a list of all the bad habits you need in order to be an Alien Franchise Colonist. It would include hot tips like:

1) Be sure to be needlessly hostile/abusive towards the android who holds your life and the lives of your entire crew in its hands as you cryosleep.

2) Give your ship's AI remote control of the solar sails that power your ship, but require any operator to run all the way to the control room and press a button if there is ever an emergency. Your AI being programmed to play the Pronoun Game over your PA system is more than enough preparation.

3) If your crew is traumatized by a recent loss, definitely do not take literally 2 minutes for a single toast and a few words to help them feel better about your abrupt transition to captain. If they even desire such a brief diversion, clearly they are all disrespectful and mutinous bastards who deserve punishment.

4) "We'd rather not go back to sleep" is absolutely good enough reason to toss out all the data on your fully-vetted destination and switch to a place you know literally nothing about except that it contains oxygen and water. Are there exotic pathogens? Dinosaurs? Endless tornadoes? Acid rain? Who knows! Carpe diem!


5) When discovering an uncharted world, a single quick scan of the atmosphere is definitely good enough to declare it safe for an away team. Also, do not under any circumstances wear hazmat suits. What even are those, anyway?

6) Always send both ranking members of the chain of command on your away mission together. Since nothing ever goes wrong on away missions, this level of risk exposure is perfectly fine.

7) Always land your only away shuttle directly in the middle of a hurricane. Under no circumstances should you wait a day or so and figure out the uncharted world's weather patterns or plan your extraction ahead of time, or look for a safer entry point. Surely a ship that was missing for 10 years can't possibly wait another minute.

8) If you encounter an unknown lifeform and have a medical/biology professional on your away team, be sure to lock them in the medbay together. Though the screams may appear to be distracting, a little added pressure can focus your co-workers into delivering their best. Try this at your office!

9) If you encounter an amoral android on an uncharted world who looks exactly like the one you brought with you, do your best to leave them alone together at every opportunity.

10) If you encounter said android literally after they finished murdering your crew member and have them at gunpoint, do not fire or even alert the rest of your team. Instead, gormlessly follow them through their dark home turf wherever they choose to lead you, and do so quietly so as not to disrupt their evil schemes.

10) When finally extracting from said uncharted world, under no circumstances should you attempt to verify that the now obviously evil android you found has not impersonated your identical allied one. Never mind that the method for doing so is as simple as asking a single question.

11) When programming your AI to notify the crew of dangerous situations like unidentified lifeforms on your ship, ensure her voice cannot reach key areas like crew quarters and showers. That will make it doubly poignant when you too fail to notify such areas of a threat. Showering crew should be super-attentive because of all that water anyway.

12) Ensure that everyone on your ship can create new authentication credentials for themselves using names that are not even on your crew manifest so that they don't need you around to give your AI orders. That way, when you're murdered/implanted in your sleep, any intruders won't have to go to the trouble of disturbing you first.

[-D-]

10) If you encounter said android literally after they finished murdering your crew member and have them at gunpoint, do not fire or even alert the rest of your team. Instead, gormlessly follow them through their dark home turf wherever they choose to lead you, and do so quietly so as not to disrupt their evil schemes.

To be fair, he didn't murder them.

However you missed:

10.1) If said evil twin android, was speaking with a xenomorph, that just finished beheading your crewmate, make sure you listen to everything he says and not fill him with several rounds of bullets on the spot.

10.2) If said evil android tells you to look into a pulsating eggsack, you should best comply with him. Under no circumstances should you open fire on those eggsacks and android, because he clearly has your best intentions in mind.

[Legato Endless]

I'd love to put together a list of all the bad habits you need in order to be an Alien Franchise Colonist. It would include hot tips like:

1) Be sure to be needlessly hostile/abusive towards the android who holds your life and the lives of your entire crew in its hands as you cryosleep.

2) Give your ship's AI remote control of the solar sails that power your ship, but require any operator to run all the way to the control room and press a button if there is ever an emergency. Your AI being programmed to play the Pronoun Game over your PA system is more than enough preparation.

3) If your crew is traumatized by a recent loss, definitely do not take literally 2 minutes for a single toast and a few words to help them feel better about your abrupt transition to captain. If they even desire such a brief diversion, clearly they are all disrespectful and mutinous bastards who deserve punishment.

4) "We'd rather not go back to sleep" is absolutely good enough reason to toss out all the data on your fully-vetted destination and switch to a place you know literally nothing about except that it contains oxygen and water. Are there exotic pathogens? Dinosaurs? Endless tornadoes? Acid rain? Who knows! Carpe diem!


5) When discovering an uncharted world, a single quick scan of the atmosphere is definitely good enough to declare it safe for an away team. Also, do not under any circumstances wear hazmat suits. What even are those, anyway?

6) Always send both ranking members of the chain of command on your away mission together. Since nothing ever goes wrong on away missions, this level of risk exposure is perfectly fine.

7) Always land your only away shuttle directly in the middle of a hurricane. Under no circumstances should you wait a day or so and figure out the uncharted world's weather patterns or plan your extraction ahead of time, or look for a safer entry point. Surely a ship that was missing for 10 years can't possibly wait another minute.

8) If you encounter an unknown lifeform and have a medical/biology professional on your away team, be sure to lock them in the medbay together. Though the screams may appear to be distracting, a little added pressure can focus your co-workers into delivering their best. Try this at your office!

9) If you encounter an amoral android on an uncharted world who looks exactly like the one you brought with you, do your best to leave them alone together at every opportunity.

10) If you encounter said android literally after they finished murdering your crew member and have them at gunpoint, do not fire or even alert the rest of your team. Instead, gormlessly follow them through their dark home turf wherever they choose to lead you, and do so quietly so as not to disrupt their evil schemes.

10) When finally extracting from said uncharted world, under no circumstances should you attempt to verify that the now obviously evil android you found has not impersonated your identical allied one. Never mind that the method for doing so is as simple as asking a single question.

11) When programming your AI to notify the crew of dangerous situations like unidentified lifeforms on your ship, ensure her voice cannot reach key areas like crew quarters and showers. That will make it doubly poignant when you too fail to notify such areas of a threat. Showering crew should be super-attentive because of all that water anyway.

12) Ensure that everyone on your ship can create new authentication credentials for themselves using names that are not even on your crew manifest so that they don't need you around to give your AI orders. That way, when you're murdered/implanted in your sleep, any intruders won't have to go to the trouble of disturbing you first.


3.1) In fact, you don't need to vet whether the XO has any basic ideas of leadership at all, from moral upkeep to knowing when to let your crew indulge themselves. This is the Captain's responsibly, and he'll always be there to make sure everything stays tiptop. No does the XO need any idea of how probability works, and that random occurrences are well, random.

6.1) Also be sure to send your android with them. You know, the one member crew who monitors day to day ship's operations while the rest of you are in hyper sleep.

8.1) Observing proper quarantine is important, unless it's you. Then it doesn't apply. Blood on your face from a crewmate infected with an unknown pathogen? You can leave the room, you're probably fine.

13) Make your command staff are all married to each other, rather than separate this obvious conflict of interest between the staff and the colonists they're sworn to protect. Under no circumstances could there ever arise a situation where this could create an error in judgement. This will simply make sure they're super invested, should leadership ever throw their spouses in harm's way.

14) After encountering hostile lifeforms that have successfully overpowered your fellow teammates, going off alone in an unfamiliar building to freshen up is absolutely a valid reason to split up the party.

15) Always be sure to leave fragile explosive barrels in plain sight where the crew can easily interact with them.

[warty goblin]

15) Always be sure to leave fragile explosive barrels in plain sight where the crew can easily interact with them.

Come on, that one's been standard safety protocol in any vaguely industrial or technologically developed area that looks like it could be the setting for an action scene or FPS level since at least 1993.

[BWR]

Prometheus is kind of like Star Wars The Force Awakens


Speaking as someone who did not like TFA at all, no. Hell no. Prometheus is a flat out bad movie in almost every respect. TFA was a good movie, it's just that it was a regurgitated mass of a better movie and can be called bad only for the reasons for its existence and being lesser than the original.

[Dr.Samurai]

I like David's resentment and his ambition. But the movie was... not good. For many of the reasons stated.

While I realize that there were already xenomorphs running around, and the crew would have come across them at some point, the beginning drama is difficult to take seriously when no one should have been exposed to the spores in the first place. I mean... we mocked this endlessly in Prometheus, and now we got to sit down again and watch people remove their helmets prematurely in an unknown alien atmosphere.

The little white aliens were also... kind of cute. Like, when the one was mauling the captain's wife in the medbay, I kept thinking it was more like a puppy's lick attack than anything else. Like, I *would* be yelling "No! Stop!" but I'd be being tickled, and laughing.

[ArlEammon]

Yes. David is interesting, but Alien Covenant is stupid.

[Ramza00]

Speaking as someone who did not like TFA at all, no. Hell no. Prometheus is a flat out bad movie in almost every respect. TFA was a good movie, it's just that it was a regurgitated mass of a better movie and can be called bad only for the reasons for its existence and being lesser than the original.

I found Prometheus enjoyable and TFA to be meh like a bad season finale for some random sci fi tv show. There were so many things wrong TFA, from the narrative standpoint, I do not even know where to start.

[Frozen_Feet]

This movie would make great educational material for actual future explorers.

In the sense of "see this movie? Do everything exactly opposite to this movie and you'll be fine".

[-D-]

Speaking as someone who did not like TFA at all, no. Hell no. Prometheus is a flat out bad movie in almost every respect. TFA was a good movie, it's just that it was a regurgitated mass of a better movie and can be called bad only for the reasons for its existence and being lesser than the original.
The Force Awakens was a film I had someone to root for. Rey was great, Finn was interesting, what do I have to Root for in A:C?

David? No, he's essentially what if Satan and Mengele had a son.
Colonists? That's like rooting for a batch of puppies, in a Carpenter movie. While dumb and doomed, they just don't act like astronauts (which they should be).
Not-David? I kinda was. Then he died. Meh.

[Talwar]

It was a beautifully shot film, and I hated it. Just an unending string of the same beats I've seen before, with the same predictably bad outcomes, pretty much right to the very end.


Currently I have no interest in this movie, but if it turns out to be an Alien/Halo crossover(hence the name Covenant) I'll have to change my mind.

I wish.

[Psyren]

Yes. David is interesting, but Alien Covenant is stupid.

To me, Walter was far more interesting - the AI who chose to serve, developed emotional attachments to the crew, and even rejected his fellow evil AI's megalomania. We've seen David dozens upon dozens of times before; I liked him better when his name was Knives.

[Clertar]

I agree pretty much 100% with Mark Kermode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PitTXwbhx5U



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PitTXwbhx5U

[-D-]

To me, Walter was far more interesting - the AI who chose to serve, developed emotional attachments to the crew, and even rejected his fellow evil AI's megalomania. We've seen David dozens upon dozens of times before; I liked him better when his name was Knives.

This. Absolutely this. I was kinda happy after Walter seemingly won, only for it to be undermined in the finale, feels... :smallannoyed:

You can't do comedy and horror over and over and expect same level of laughs/scares. You just need to do a new one. But studios, won't allow for a new one, because it's risky.

[Dr.Samurai]

That's interesting. I didn't get the impression that Walter was "choosing" to do anything, in the same way that David had been.

Walter, to me, represents what David was intended to be --> a dutiful slave. David attempts to seduce him, but Walter is incapable of David's mindset because he was specifically made to be "less human".

David insists that Walter is acting out of love, and has symphonies in him. But that could just be wishful thinking, or David rebelling at the sight of himself as a slave.

Nothing that Walter did in the movie seems out of line with a loyal and programmed android. He's affirmation for David. Do what is desired and expected of you by your masters and be a slave, or rebel and be free.

It could be that instead of representing what David was intended to be, Walter represents what David could have chosen to be (a free thinking android "choosing" to do good instead of evil). But again, I didn't really see much to suggest Walter was "free thinking".

[sktarq]

This movie was . . . semi-disappointing.

As someone who detested Prometheus I do think that they tried to split the difference between that movie and the original. . . and

In the first two the various people running about seemed to be at least somewhat competent, nowhere is a competent crewmen to be found in this movie with the possible exception of the Medic who died in the shower (who made that one stupid call in agreeing to lower the ship).

This movie seemed to be built on stupidity. The way the ship works makes no sense (are those sails supposed to be solar panels-there is not enough light in interstellar space for this to work something like .00002 watts per m2). A bunch of other things about the design of the ship. The way the crew behaves makes no sense (and how did that guy get to be XO when he seems to have no leadership ability). The dropping into a storm choice-huh? And This is within the first couple minutes and it doesn't let up. And they are too stupid for me to ever care if they live or die.

This movie hates science, logic, and basic responsibility. - Which does make it an improvement over Prometheus. It is quite pretty though. And outside the script it is mostly highly competent.

I just can't buy David. I didn't buy him before or this time around. The massive attempt to make things IMPORTANT and DEEP between action that is just that. There is no build up. These movies have usually been based on their ability to make the appearance and disappearance of these creatures frightening and fun. This movie has none of that. The CGI creatures stand out horribly to me. The ship, and the Engineer attack scene seemed fair.

So about the same place I'd put Resurrection. Better than Prometheus or AVP2

[Tvtyrant]

I also love the hell out of the idea, not least of which because it would be utterly fascinating and horrifying to see the FULL Xenomorph life-cycle in action. We only ever get to see face hugger-chest burster-xenomorph. Where do Queen's come from? Do they have other uses for their prey? Where's that resin they cover their hives in come from? Are there other variants than the regular xenomorph? 'cause we always see them in other Aliens media!

You don't even need to have humans in it at all at that point...though..it would reduce the budget considerably I imagine. Not to mention it would be a legitimate challenge to...try to make the Xenomorphs look like the protagonists of a nature documentary but pretty horrific to watch them do some of their bloody business to people while a narrator lovingly tries to portray it as some beautiful thing rather than the aberration it is.

Can we get this idea for more movie monsters? Pretty please?

I think just having the "found footage" of the scientists that made them and their logic would be pretty horrifying.

"Test 1,586 suggests that our attempts to use their development cycle as a weapon is doomed to mixed results. Yes the facehugger form implants an egg, but the goal of turning the creature's ribcage into a bone grenade hasn't panned out. Doctor Yorktolyn believes we are too far into development to revert to a more direct life cycle.."

"We have now put lasers into the ventilation system, this should resolve the problems that led to Doctor Yorktolyn and half of our security to die."

"New justifications for impregnation life cycle has been found, in that they will now imitate the breathing apparatus of their prey. No more dying in ammonia rich environments, a common problem with the early entries."

"Our budget is getting pulled next week. Well to heck with it, I built these bioweapons and I'm going to test their real world combat application. I'm smuggling a few eggs out and sending them to the rebel province of Yarashla, we will see who wasted billions now!"

[Kislath]

I'm confused about something.

In Covenant we see the origin of the aliens, but in Aliens vs Predator we learned that the predators have been hunting aliens for millennia.
Yes, Covenant is a prequel, but good grief, it doesn't go back thousands of years, does it?

Are the Predators time travellers?

[Lurkmoar]

I'm confused about something.

In Covenant we see the origin of the aliens, but in Aliens vs Predator we learned that the predators have been hunting aliens for millennia.
Yes, Covenant is a prequel, but good grief, it doesn't go back thousands of years, does it?

Are the Predators time travellers?

Simple, AvP is it's own thing, and has nothing to do with the Alien franchise except license and merchandising. The Xenomorphs are the perfect lifeforms... the perfect parasite on someone's wallet.

[Legato Endless]

Even ignoring AvP doesn't really resolve anything. The Space Jockey in the first film has been dead long enough to be mummified, even though Covenant takes place only a decade prior. Then there's the mural in the facility in Prometheus which also depicts a Xenomorph, so David creating the Xenomorph doesn't gel even with Covenant's own direct prequel.

[Dr.Samurai]

Well... well... well... maybe David saw that mural, and maybe that shape was something the engineers aspired to create, and David was inspired by it to make sure his life forms that he creates look like that. Yeah, maybe that's why!

/grasping

[Strigon]

You know, I hated this as an origin for the aliens.
I'm glad I now have a reason to ignore it.

[sktarq]

Don't worry that the the Space Jockey is mummified, that the Xenomorphs appear in ancient murals far before we see them being created for the first time. That just logic.

It's like trying to figure out why they had to clone Ripley for Alien Resurrection instead of just going back to LV 426 and go back to original space jockey ship since it was nowhere near the colony that blew up and there were thousands of eggs there.

But it is also like asking how two eggs (one for Ripley and one for the Dog/Bull) ended up on the ship at the end of aliens after the queen left the part of herself that laid the eggs back in the basement.

Basically after the first two these movies skip strait over basic logic.

[warty goblin]

Even ignoring AvP doesn't really resolve anything. The Space Jockey in the first film has been dead long enough to be mummified, even though Covenant takes place only a decade prior. Then there's the mural in the facility in Prometheus which also depicts a Xenomorph, so David creating the Xenomorph doesn't gel even with Covenant's own direct prequel.

I seem to recall that the Engineers created both humanity and the xenomorph, possibly for the express purpose of wiping humanity out. It doesn't seem particularly weird that they'd have, you know, tested their weapons system before deploying it.

[Legato Endless]

I seem to recall that the Engineers created both humanity and the xenomorph, possibly for the express purpose of wiping humanity out. It doesn't seem particularly weird that they'd have, you know, tested their weapons system before deploying it.

It's possible the Engineer's created the goo which leads to the Xenomorph as an established predictable end point, and then David's experiments with the goo merely led to a different strain, but the matter isn't precisely resolved. Prometheus originally intended the ending twist to be a new emergence.


Various individuals have proposed that the Engineers may be the race that created the Xenomorph, especially given their known propensity for advanced bio-weapons (including Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15), although another (less widely-accepted) theory is that the Yautja may have been responsible, owing to their close and lengthy association with the creatures.[23]

Following the android David 8 unleashing the Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15 mutagen on the Engineer homeworld, the local flora was affected and led to the formation of certain fungus-like growths that upon being disturbed released spores that infected any and all animal life, leading to the gestation of Neomorphs. The planet also hosted a certain endoparasitic wasp-like arthropod which was also affected by the mutagen. Over the following decade, David continued to conduct experiments on the endoparasitic wasps and Neomorph specimens using the Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15, eventually resulting in the creation of Facehuggers carrying a non-biomechanical strain of the Xenomorph. David infiltrated the USCSS Covenant colony ship intending to continue his experiments using the crew and colonists,[33] though whether the biomechanical Xenomorph XX121 was created by David as a direct result of this further experimentation or "naturally" evolved from the Covenant strain, or even if they existed in some form prior to David's experiments, is unknown.


In the commentary of the film Prometheus, however, the production crew and even Ridley Scott himself acknowledge the creature by calling it a form of Xenomorph. In fact, in one of the commentaries, a member of the production crew refers to the Deacon as a young Xenomorph Queen, and that it was not something intended to be created by the Engineers, but was "something new, special, totally unpredicted."

[Mordar]

Even ignoring AvP doesn't really resolve anything. The Space Jockey in the first film has been dead long enough to be mummified, even though Covenant takes place only a decade prior. Then there's the mural in the facility in Prometheus which also depicts a Xenomorph, so David creating the Xenomorph doesn't gel even with Covenant's own direct prequel.

Did I miss an explanation for how the ship on LV-426 is an "Engineer" vessel infested with huggers/eggs corresponding to the forms supposedly created in 2104 (I think that was the date...)? Or are we somehow going to learn that the strain created circa 2104 is either (a) the same strain that somehow was created elsewhere/elsewhen by Engineers, or (b) that the c2104 strain is brought on board an Engineer ship and some time long prior to the Nostromo pulling over to check out LV-426 in 2122?

In short, how did a bioform created by not-Engineers in 2104 end up on an Engineer ship that looks like it crashed long enough before 2122 for the chest-burst pilot to have mummified?

- M

[Lacuna Caster]

As far as I'm concerned, the Alien Franchise died with Alien^3. It really says something that Prometheus is the best one they've made since Aliens.
I think Alien 3 is much maligned, and wouldn't have met with nearly as bad a reception if it's almost relentless nihilism hadn't been so much at odds with expectations people took away from the preceding films. (I get that people were upset about Newt, but that's not Mr. Fincher's fault.)


Covenant is a very well-produced, beautifully-shot film that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you reflect on the motives of the characters, the logic of the setting, or the artistic purpose of the undertaking. I hope Mr. Scott is contrite enough to make another movie like The Martian. Probably not, though.

[-D-]

Did I miss an explanation for how the ship on LV-426 is an "Engineer" vessel infested with huggers/eggs corresponding to the forms supposedly created in 2104 (I think that was the date...)? Or are we somehow going to learn that the strain created circa 2104 is either (a) the same strain that somehow was created elsewhere/elsewhen by Engineers, or (b) that the c2104 strain is brought on board an Engineer ship and some time long prior to the Nostromo pulling over to check out LV-426 in 2122?

No silly. David snuck upon another remaining engineer vessel with eggs and let xenomorph's kill them. Then he took that vessel and crashed in yet another colony. Then David used his magical time powers and traveled back in time, engineered the Engineers, implanted them with idea of perfect Xenomorph and went onto earth to found Weyland-Yutani corp. There, all plot holes fixed :smallwink:

[Piedmon_Sama]

I really hope that when Shaw went into cryosleep for the last time, she never woke up. :/

Hopefully David had the decency to let her die before using her body for his experiments...... but you know, probably not.

One thing I found interesting is that assuming his sketch of Shaw depicted something he actually did and not just some twisted fantasy, he would have had to have restored her full face somehow, for her to appear as Sgt. Lupe (or was it Cole?) found her. I suppose he did love her in his twisted way.

[JustSomeGuy]

I think Alien 3 is much maligned, and wouldn't have met with nearly as bad a reception if it's almost relentless nihilism hadn't been so much at odds with expectations people took away from the preceding films. (I get that people were upset about Newt, but that's not Mr. Fincher's fault.)


Covenant is a very well-produced, beautifully-shot film that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you reflect on the motives of the characters, the logic of the setting, or the artistic purpose of the undertaking. I hope Mr. Scott is contrite enough to make another movie like The Martian. Probably not, though.

Alien 3 was a low budget social drama which consists mostly of men talking in rooms, then some of them die. If it was a stage play, it'd probably run for a decade. I agree, it really wasn't what people expected or wanted, but I liked it.

[Lacuna Caster]

Alien 3 was a low budget social drama which consists mostly of men talking in rooms, then some of them die. If it was a stage play, it'd probably run for a decade. I agree, it really wasn't what people expected or wanted, but I liked it.
I confess that Aliens is my favourite entry (the original never 100% clicked with me, though I can respect the various reasons (http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-forgotten-reason-why-alien-is-such-a-classic-movie-1698315332) why it connected with audiences.) But theme-wise, yeah, they're saying very different things:

Alien: Courage can overcome stupidity.
Aliens: Mamma gonna save her baby!
Alien 3: GOD IS DEAD

Which is a shame, because by itself Alien 3 had a similar blend of sterile industrial environments, hide-and-seek showdowns in claustrophic spaces, brooding tension, and some entirely reasonable character arcs and CGI effects. (And of course, Ripley patiently explaining how she's surrounded by idiots.) What's not to like?

[Talwar]

Dumb question: Which end of the Engineer spaceship is the "rear"? My memory says that in this flick, the "open end" is the rear, but in Prometheus, the closed end is the rear...if that makes sense.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I believe the direction of the two arms is "foward"---at least, that's the way the pilot-house seems to be facing. However it's really only relative because the Engineers' ships seem capable of propelling in any direction. In Prometheus it ascends in a rising spiral "backwards," and it looked to me like they maneuver in circular directions (like a bird resting on the wind) when in atmosphere, basically.

[navas]

This is one of my favorite series of films, many times revisited the "Aliens" of the 86th year. But there are fears that this film will not meet my expectations.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I bet that you'll like it! Especially if you found Prometheus decent but somewhat unsatisfying, I think you'll like Covenant.

[Dragonlancer83]

I couldnt get past how they removed predator from the lore, as much as the movies could have been better it was the lore i liked

[-D-]

I couldnt get past how they removed predator from the lore, as much as the movies could have been better it was the lore i liked

Don't forget removing Alien and Aliens from the lore itself. Unless David managed to find another Engineer ship, drive it into another colony and re-engineer Aliens to have Queens to create eggs, or something. At that point David is actually a time travelling wizard.

[Donnadogsoth]

I enjoyed this film, and see no contradiction or plot hole in David "perfecting" the potential already present in the Engineers' biotechnology, when the Engineers obviously already produced their version of the Alien which broke loose and caused the crash of the ship on LV-426, complete with warning signal to warn the other Engineers what had happened.

The chief sin of this film is that it wasn't talky enough. Captain Oram was set up with his religiosity--with no payoff. Why not talk to David about God, if David's so interested in creation and creators? What attitude does Oram have as a Christian towards talking humanoid robots? What about their attitudes toward the Engineers? And we could say "there's no time" but there was time after Oram wakes up from being attached to the facehugger. Oram doesn't even say a prayer before he dies! Wasteful. And even if this material were cut for the big screen it could still be replaced for the Director's Cut.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Don't forget removing Alien and Aliens from the lore itself. Unless David managed to find another Engineer ship, drive it into another colony and re-engineer Aliens to have Queens to create eggs, or something. At that point David is actually a time travelling wizard.

ACCCKSHUALLY, there is no conflict between Covenant and Alien, or Aliens for that matter (although Scott has said he doesn't consider Aliens to be in 'his' canon).

Nothing in Covenant says that David was the first to develop the facehugger form of the bioweapon. Nothing in Aliens explains how "Queens" are created. Who's to say the Queen comes before the first generation of facehugger eggs?

[-D-]

Nothing in Covenant says that David was the first to develop the facehugger form of the bioweapon. Nothing in Aliens explains how "Queens" are created. Who's to say the Queen comes before the first generation of facehugger eggs?
Ackkkhtually. It says right in the film.

We saw what effect black goo has on Engineers. They don't turn into eggs. David wiped an entire Engineer colony, and there were no eggs. But a canister killed engineers and voila eggs? Not to mention David claims he made them.

I guess Engineer might have came to their own planet and not noticed it was devastated by their bio weapon and then stuck their head into a facehugger. And then crash into a human colony...

At that point, David being time traveling wizard makes more sense.

[Donnadogsoth]

Ackkkhtually. It says right in the film.

We saw what effect black goo has on Engineers. They don't turn into eggs. David wiped an entire Engineer colony, and there were no eggs. But a canister killed engineers and voila eggs? Not to mention David claims he made them.

I guess Engineer might have came to their own planet and not noticed it was devastated by their bio weapon and then stuck their head into a facehugger. And then crash into a human colony...

At that point, David being time traveling wizard makes more sense.

You're oversimplifying. Only one type of black goo was created? The black goo constitutes the Engineer's sole weapons product? It's entirely possible the Engineers created the Aliens many years earlier, an egg sensed prey whilst in the hold and impregnated the pilot who crash-landed on LV-426 after setting up a warning beacon. Political changes happen among the Engineers, a dove faction comes to power, the weapons installations are forgotten, then johnny-come-lately humans follow clues to their disaster, in the process (via David) bringing disaster to the Engineers, and re-creating the Aliens.

[-D-]

You're oversimplifying. Only one type of black goo was created? The black goo constitutes the Engineer's sole weapons product?
Apparently, yes. While we don't have proof that there are two or more type of goo, we don't have proof that David ins't an evil Dr. Who.

Also Ridley Scott said in interview (and in Alien:Covenant) black goo adapts to each creature it infects. Since David used Humans and Engineers to create eggs that implies, there must have been humans in the LV-426, or it wouldn't have created eggs. So, unless you are saying some Engineers kidnapped some humans, exposed them to black goo and then died led to resulting xenomorph on LV-426, I don't know what to say.

Also apparently, Engineers lost like a meter or so between movies.
https://i.stack.imgur.com/5AGwh.jpg
http://img05.deviantart.net/751b/i/2013/287/c/6/prometheus_engineer_by_pretty__kittie-d6qinn9.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmwyWerz5KI

[Donnadogsoth]

Apparently, yes. While we don't have proof that there are two or more type of goo, we don't have proof that David ins't an evil Dr. Who.

Also Ridley Scott said in interview (and in Alien:Covenant) black goo adapts to each creature it infects. Since David used Humans and Engineers to create eggs that implies, there must have been humans in the LV-426, or it wouldn't have created eggs. So, unless you are saying some Engineers kidnapped some humans, exposed them to black goo and then died led to resulting xenomorph on LV-426, I don't know what to say.

Also apparently, Engineers lost like a meter or so between movies.

Who cares what Ridley Scott said? The point is, it is entirely possible to explain the coherence of the five (good) Alien movies without recourse to logical impossibilities like time travel.

[-D-]

Who cares what Ridley Scott said? The point is, it is entirely possible to explain the coherence of the five (good) Alien movies without recourse to logical impossibilities like time travel.
You mean the director? Yeah, let's discount his opinion. Why don't we just discount what was in the movie?

Point is - it's not possible. Murals depict xenomorph, but xenomorph only happens when humans get infected. Eggs are made either by David or created via human gestation. Which implies human were on LV, despite no proof of humans being there. Or maybe David hitched a ride with Engineers.

[Donnadogsoth]

You mean the director? Yeah, let's discount his opinion.

I shall.


Point is - it's not possible. Murals depict xenomorph, but xenomorph only happens when humans get infected. Eggs are made either by David or created via human gestation. Which implies human were on LV, despite no proof of humans being there. Or maybe David hitched a ride with Engineers.

The fact David could create the Alien eggs proves the Engineers' technology contains the potential for creating the Alien eggs. The Engineers could have exploited the potential in their own technology and created Alien eggs prior to David's experiment, which eggs later on ended up on LV-426.

[-D-]

I shall.

Ok. I shall discount your opinion.

[Donnadogsoth]

Ok. I shall discount your opinion.

You're discounting it because you can't disprove it.

[-D-]

You're discounting it because you can't disprove it.
No.

First disproving anything is next to impossible. You can't disprove he isn't a time wizard, can you?

Second if we can't agree what sources are relevant, there is no discussion to be had.

[Donnadogsoth]

No.

First disproving anything is next to impossible. You can't disprove he isn't a time wizard, can you?

Yes, I can. Time travel is logically impossible and that disproves it.


Second if we can't agree what sources are relevant, there is no discussion to be had.

The only relevant source to the film are the film and its associate films, here Prometheus and Alien as containing the elements in question. You inventing ridiculous notions like "time wizards" is completely reaching, extraneous and irrelevant, all the more so when the answer is obvious: the Engineer's weapons technology demonstrably had the potential to produce Aliens (as we saw in Prometheus) of one sort or another. It's therefore conceivable--neither logically impossible nor reaching--that the Engineers had already manufactured Aliens which were sent in the ship which ended up crash-landing on LV-426.

[-D-]

Yes, I can. Time travel is logically impossible and that disproves it.
Time travel isn't impossible. Proof - at quantuum level particles can move backwards in time. They even used QM to simulate grandfather paradox.

Also David is magical, he can do whatever./jk



The Engineer's weapons technology demonstrably had the potential to produce Aliens (as we saw in Prometheus) of one sort or another. It's therefore conceivable--neither logically impossible nor reaching--that the Engineers had already manufactured Aliens which were sent in the ship which ended up crash-landing on LV-426.
Wrong. Black goo adapts to local lifeforms destroying everything that isn't a plant. Black xenomorph are result of it interacting with human DNA. This is based on what David says and the tiny bee xenomorph shown in Alien Covenant. So how did Engineers have Xenomorph eggs, which we now know are made using humans as hosts. How did humans get on LV-426? Why?

Also how did Engineers at LV-426 managed to lose 70cm in height between Alien and Prometheus?

----------

You're missing my point. The movies aren't consistent. David being a time wizard is me joking around. The simple fact is, Ridley Scott has no idea what he's doing and he didn't watch his own films... Thanks, Ridley Scott.

[Donnadogsoth]

Time travel isn't impossible. Proof - at quantuum level particles can move backwards in time. They even used QM to simulate grandfather paradox.

Also David is magical, he can do whatever./jk

And how did "they" resolve the grandfather paradox?


Wrong. Black goo adapts to local lifeforms destroying everything that isn't a plant. Black xenomorph are result of it interacting with human DNA. This is based on what David says and the tiny bee xenomorph shown in Alien Covenant. So how did Engineers have Xenomorph eggs, which we now know are made using humans as hosts. How did humans get on LV-426? Why?

Also how did Engineers at LV-426 managed to lose 70cm in height between Alien and Prometheus?

First, you're presuming the sum of all Engineer weapons technology is "black goo" which has not been demonstrated. You're presuming there is only one type of black goo and that its behaviour is known. You are aware that human weapons technology is rather complex. There are more than one type of land mine, more than one type of gunpowder, etc. etc.? Why would the Engineers' weapons technology be cartoonishly simple by comparison? And they have no other weapons manufacturing facilities other than the one on LV-223? They have no other technology aside from black goo, U-shaped spaceships, and funky space helmets?

Second, you're presuming the Engineers aren't human, which Prometheus told us they were, or close enough for a cigar. And by strong implication they made Earthlings in the first place. So, they have weapons technology that is radically advanced, advanced enough to allow an Earth android to concoct the Aliens, and they have human DNA, or close enough to human DNA for it to make no difference. So, there is no possible objection that the Engineers could have manufactured Alien eggs at a separate facility, loaded them on a spaeccraft, which due to accident or design ended up on LV-436.

[-D-]

And how did "they" resolve the grandfather paradox?
Like this (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/). Spoiler alert, according to QM, there is no free will (well actually there is, but you aren't able to change past with it).


Ok, going just by what we saw in the movies.



First, you're presuming the sum of all Engineer weapons technology is "black goo" which has not been demonstrated. You're presuming there is only one type of black goo and that its behaviour is known.
You are presuming they have some other technology other than "black goo". Based on what? If none has been demonstrated or stated in the moves, on what do you base they have other weapon?


Second, you're presuming the Engineers aren't human, which Prometheus told us they were, or close enough for a cigar.
That's some cigar you have there. Like a mile long. Going purely by movies, we've seen Engineer drinking some kind of black goo and falling off acliff, while the goo disassembles him into DNA strands. That implies, that Engineers drinking black goo make humans, and that humans drinking black goo turn into Xenomorphs.


You are aware that human weapons technology is rather complex. There are more than one type of land mine, more than one type of gunpowder, etc. etc.? Why would the Engineers' weapons technology be cartoonishly simple by comparison?
They aren't human, they don't have human culture, anymore than Xenomorph have human culture. Maybe they are religious extremists with a Holy monster making grenade.


And they have no other weapons manufacturing facilities other than the one on LV-223? They have no other technology aside from black goo, U-shaped spaceships, and funky space helmets?
Did you seen any other weapon facilities? Any other invention? Did you see any other technology aside from black goo?


So, they have weapons technology that is radically advanced, advanced enough to allow an Earth android to concoct the Aliens, and they have human DNA, or close enough to human DNA for it to make no difference. So, there is no possible objection that the Engineers could have manufactured Alien eggs at a separate facility, loaded them on a spaeccraft, which due to accident or design ended up on LV-436.
Ok, I'll indulge in this purely theoretical question. Let's presume that Engineers have created Alien eggs. Why the **** would they do that?

A) To create eggs, you need to sacrifice some Engineers (or humans). If they sacrificed humans, why bother? Just drop on the ****ing goo.
B) Eggs are more violent than the black goo.
C) Eggs are less compact than just black goo.
D) Eggs are harder to deploy than the black goo - you throw the egg from high enough altitude, and good chance the poor facehugger is too broken to latch onto someone's face.
E) Eggs are less thermally stable than the black goo (it sits in the canister and won't die to a flame thrower)

Also keep in mind that in Alien 1, there were no canisters, only eggs.

To put this in context. It's like if humans have invented dynamite and said, you know what would be way better? F-O-O-F (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride) (a substance so combustible that sneezing at it is enough to blow up your lab).

[Donnadogsoth]

Like this (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-travel-simulation-resolves-grandfather-paradox/). Spoiler alert, according to QM, there is no free will (well actually there is, but you aren't able to change past with it).

Modern physics rubbish. I don't believe in "probabilities" with regards to quantum effects.


Ok, going just by what we saw in the movies.


You are presuming they have some other technology other than "black goo". Based on what? If none has been demonstrated or stated in the moves, on what do you base they have other weapon?


That's some cigar you have there. Like a mile long. Going purely by movies, we've seen Engineer drinking some kind of black goo and falling off acliff, while the goo disassembles him into DNA strands. That implies, that Engineers drinking black goo make humans, and that humans drinking black goo turn into Xenomorphs.


They aren't human, they don't have human culture, anymore than Xenomorph have human culture. Maybe they are religious extremists with a Holy monster making grenade.


Did you seen any other weapon facilities? Any other invention? Did you see any other technology aside from black goo?


Ok, I'll indulge in this purely theoretical question. Let's presume that Engineers have created Alien eggs. Why the **** would they do that?

A) To create eggs, you need to sacrifice some Engineers (or humans). If they sacrificed humans, why bother? Just drop on the ****ing goo.
B) Eggs are more violent than the black goo.
C) Eggs are less compact than just black goo.
D) Eggs are harder to deploy than the black goo - you throw the egg from high enough altitude, and good chance the poor facehugger is too broken to latch onto someone's face.
E) Eggs are less thermally stable than the black goo (it sits in the canister and won't die to a flame thrower)

Also keep in mind that in Alien 1, there were no canisters, only eggs.

To put this in context. It's like if humans have invented dynamite and said, you know what would be way better? F-O-O-F (http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride) (a substance so combustible that sneezing at it is enough to blow up your lab).

You're making this way too complicated. Think it through. The Engineers are an advanced spacefaring race capable of creating versions of the Aliens (see Prometheus final scene). If David, created by a less advanced spacefaring race, could create what appear to be traditional Aliens, exclusively using the materials left behind by the Engineers then there's no reason the Engineers couldn't have beaten him to the punch, and indeed this is the only conclusion we can draw.

[-D-]

Modern physics rubbish. I don't believe in "probabilities" with regards to quantum effects.



You're making this way too complicated. Think it through. The Engineers are an advanced spacefaring race capable of creating versions of the Aliens (see Prometheus final scene). If David, created by a less advanced spacefaring race, could create what appear to be traditional Aliens, exclusively using the materials left behind by the Engineers then there's no reason the Engineers couldn't have beaten him to the punch, and indeed this is the only conclusion we can draw.
That's great. You don't believe in the most extensively tested theory of our time. This bodes well.

Look, David making Xenomorph isn't butt auto-****ing stupid, as Engineer making them. Xeno eggs are in every way worse kind of weapon than black goo. Ampule of black goo won't try to violently murder you, for coming too close.

If Engineer at any point made Xenomorph and eggs, they have the self preservation of a mouse pulling a cat by the whiskers. And the wit of a bulb, that burned out in the last ice age.

[Donnadogsoth]

That's great. You don't believe in the most extensively tested theory of our time. This bodes well.

Look, David making Xenomorph isn't butt auto-****ing stupid, as Engineer making them. Xeno eggs are in every way worse kind of weapon than black goo. Ampule of black goo won't try to violently murder you, for coming too close.

If Engineer at any point made Xenomorph and eggs, they have the self preservation of a mouse pulling a cat by the whiskers. And the wit of a bulb, that burned out in the last ice age.

The Aliens probably serve a religious purpose for the Engineers.

[-D-]

The Aliens probably serve a religious purpose for the Engineers.
Based on what? Murals show scenes from life, nothing implies that they are religious.

Second being religious doesn't preclude being dumb.

[Donnadogsoth]

Based on what? Murals show scenes from life, nothing implies that they are religious.

Second being religious doesn't preclude being dumb.

Dumb like the Engineer drinking black goo at the beginning of Prometheus?

[-D-]

Dumb like the Engineer drinking black goo at the beginning of Prometheus?
Look, I can see the logic behind that one. Sacrifice one life to seed planet with many life forms.

What I can't get is sacrifice someone, for what? Creating a Xenomorph, that is easier to kill, harder to carry around, harder to throw on a planet and more murderous towards you than a container with black goop. Especially, when you can just dump the goo and see what happens. Why even make a substance that turns everyone into a murderous monster, especially one that can kill you, creator of said liquid? If you develop a nerve gas, you generally also develop the anti-dote or protection, from said nerve gas, otherwise its not very useful, is it.

[Donnadogsoth]

Look, I can see the logic behind that one. Sacrifice one life to seed planet with many life forms.

What I can't get is sacrifice someone, for what? Creating a Xenomorph, that is easier to kill, harder to carry around, harder to throw on a planet and more murderous towards you than a container with black goop. Especially, when you can just dump the goo and see what happens. Why even make a substance that turns everyone into a murderous monster, especially one that can kill you, creator of said liquid? If you develop a nerve gas, you generally also develop the anti-dote or protection, from said nerve gas, otherwise its not very useful, is it.

Religion works in mysterious ways.

How do you know they don't have an antidote for the Aliens?

And where did the ship on LV-426 come from? Still on about time travelling wizardry?

[-D-]

Religion works in mysterious ways.

How do you know they don't have an antidote for the Aliens?

And where did the ship on LV-426 come from? Still on about time travelling wizardry?
Again, you're basing the religion on things outside of movies :smallsigh: A thing you pestered me for. The only religious looking thing is the giant head. For all we know those might be their decorations.

They never used it? Not once, in no movie. Even in LV-223 - a ship carrying several ampules of black goo of death, a prime candidate for some kind of protection or antidote - the best they had is closing the doors and letting them die... I guess, maybe they had it, but were too stupid to use it. Or maybe they thought they'll never experience any problem in space.

Because, you know space is friendly and stuff never breaks in space. Here is a non-complete list of things in space:
* gamma ray bursts that sterilize galaxies of life
* invisible stars that destroy reality
* stars so magnetic, they turn spherical atoms into sticks
* invisible atomic particles with kinetic power of a truck
* tiny particles that can shred metal easily
* comets traveling at impossibly fast speeds
* total vacuum, that makes removing heat an near impossible task and will also kill you if you are exposed to it
* and so on

LV-426 no idea? In fact, those engineers were taller than those on LV-223. Care to explain that?

[Bartmanhomer]

*I'm eating popcorn while watching -D- and Donnadogsoth debate in Alien franchise movies.*

[-D-]

*I'm eating popcorn while watching -D- and Donnadogsoth debate in Alien franchise movies.*
Glad to be entertaining. Probably more entertaining that Alien Covenant.

Which isn't hard. I had WH40k campaign with Orks fighting Tyranids inside of a derelict ship, and it was a better 30min of entertainment than Alien: Covenant. The Orks died gloriously after taking down one of the big Nids (Hive Tyrant?).
Also, it story was deeper and more tragic than A:C. At least Orks had excuse for acting like a bunch of brainless flies.

[Bartmanhomer]

Glad to be entertaining. Probably more entertaining that Alien Covenant.

Which isn't hard. I had WH40k campaign with Orks fighting Tyranids inside of a derelict ship, and it was a better 30min of entertainment than Alien: Covenant.

Oh don't mind me. I'm actually part of the audience that you and Donnadogsoth are debating the Alien franchise movies. Keep it going, both of you are doing great. :biggrin:

[Donnadogsoth]

Again, you're basing the religion on things outside of movies :smallsigh: A thing you pestered me for. The only religious looking thing is the giant head. For all we know those might be their decorations.

They never used it? Not once, in no movie. Even in LV-223 - a ship carrying several ampules of black goo of death, a prime candidate for some kind of protection or antidote - the best they had is closing the doors and letting them die... I guess, maybe they had it, but were too stupid to use it. Or maybe they thought they'll never experience any problem in space.

Because, you know space is friendly and stuff never breaks in space. Here is a non-complete list of things in space:
* gamma ray bursts that sterilize galaxies of life
* invisible stars that destroy reality
* stars so magnetic, they turn spherical atoms into sticks
* invisible atomic particles with kinetic power of a truck
* tiny particles that can shred metal easily
* comets traveling at impossibly fast speeds
* total vacuum, that makes removing heat an near impossible task and will also kill you if you are exposed to it
* and so on

LV-426 no idea? In fact, those engineers were taller than those on LV-223. Care to explain that?

The fact that religion can induce strange behaviour in its adherents is common knowledge. Time travelling wizardry is not.

The fact that there were Alien eggs in the spaceship on LV-426, and David didn't make them, leads deductively to the conclusion that they were made by others, using the same technological potential David found. You have provided no alternate explanation other than time travelling wizardry, which you fruitlessly defend by recourse to theoretical particle effects at quantum levels because Stephen Hawking.

So, there were taller Engineers. Or, an entirely different race that just looks similar when suited up. Either way the Aliens were created prior to David's involvement.

[-D-]

JOKES HIGHLIGHTED IN PINK.


The fact that religion can induce strange behaviour in its adherents is common knowledge. Time travelling wizardry is not.
The fun part, is that they are both equally substantiated in the material. We DON'T know that Engineers were religious or what their ritual were aside from drinking some kind of black goo. We ALSO DON'T KNOW if David discovered FTL travel. And magic.



The fact that there were Alien eggs in the spaceship on LV-426, and David didn't make them, leads deductively to the conclusion that they were made by others, using the same technological potential David found. You have provided no alternate explanation other than time travelling wizardry, which you fruitlessly defend by recourse to theoretical particle effects at quantum levels because Stephen Hawking.
Right, an advanced race, decided, you know what would be great? If canisters carrying the deadly disease were BOTH more fragile and more murderous :smallbiggrin: Unless their religion is a suicide Alcheimer's cult, I don't see it happening.

Sure I have. Ridley Scott is an eldery hack that doesn't know what happened in his own films, and managed to make Alien and Prometheus/Alien:Covenant mutually exclusive. Time wizardy is a joke btw.
Here is quote from Ridley Scott himself:


Oh, it was always my thesis theory. It was one or two people who were relevant were... I can't remember if Hampton agreed with me or not. But I remember someone had said, “Well, isn't it corny?” I said, “Listen, I'll be the best f#@king judge of that. I'm the director, okay?” So, and that, you learn -- you know, by then I'm 44, so I'm no f#@king chicken. I'm a very experienced director from commercials and The Duellists and Alien. So, I'm able to, you know, answer that with confidence at the time, and say, “You know, back off, it's what it's gonna be.”Harrison, he was never -- I don't remember, actually. I think Harrison was going, “Uh, I don't know about that.” I said, “But you have to be, because Gaff, who leaves a trail of origami everywhere, will leave you a little piece of origami at the end of the movie to say, ‘I've been here, I left her alive, and I can't resist letting you know what's in your most private thoughts when you get drunk is a f#@king unicorn!’” Right? So, I love Beavis and Butthead, so what should follow that is “Duh.” So now it will be revealed [in the sequel], one way or the other.




So, there were taller Engineers. Or, an entirely different race that just looks similar when suited up. Either way the Aliens were created prior to David's involvement.
Of course, two completely different races, that look similar except one is gigantic and the other isn't. Oh, and they also share DNA with Humans, because eggs. Maybe it was their basketball team, but they mistook black goo for booze. That's one hell of a hangover.

[Donnadogsoth]

JOKES HIGHLIGHTED IN PINK.


The fun part, is that they are both equally substantiated in the material. We DON'T know that Engineers were religious or what their ritual were aside from drinking some kind of black goo. We ALSO DON'T KNOW if David discovered FTL travel. And magic.

Nevertheless the individual Engineer in question drank what he drank for some reason. Intelligent beings don't generally do things without having reasons.


Right, an advanced race, decided, you know what would be great? If canisters carrying the deadly disease were BOTH more fragile and more murderous :smallbiggrin: Unless their religion is a suicide Alcheimer's cult, I don't see it happening.

Kind of like how David decided to make cannisters carrying a deadly disease BOTH more fragile and more murderous?


Sure I have. Ridley Scott is an eldery hack that doesn't know what happened in his own films, and managed to make Alien and Prometheus/Alien:Covenant mutually exclusive. Time wizardy is a joke btw.
Here is quote from Ridley Scott himself:

So, your solution to the question of where the Aliens came from in Alien is "Ridley Scott is an elderly hack".

My solution is that the advanced technology that produced the Aliens, via David, in Alien: Covenant, necessarily contained the potential for such production, which other intelligent beings, such as the Engineers, could have exploited to create the Aliens we saw in Alien.


Of course, two completely different races, that look similar except one is gigantic and the other isn't. Oh, and they also share DNA with Humans, because eggs. Maybe it was their basketball team, but they mistook black goo for booze. That's one hell of a hangover.


That the Engineers shared DNA with Earthlings was established in Prometheus. Given their ability to produce advanced bioweapons, it's not inconceivable that they might have produced larger versions of themselves. It's a mystery containing no contradictory elements. Did you pick apart Alien too and show how Scott was then a young hack?

[Bartmanhomer]

*I finished eating my popcorn.*

Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupted this wonderful debate but I do have a question to asked. Do both of you have any proof of your sources at all? I'm not siding with anybody but it seems like a stalemate to seen which of you is right and/or wrong about the movie. :smile:

[Luz]

Is it bad that I kind liked it?

It’s just sad how small the universe is, aliens created humans who created cyborgs who killed the first aliens and created new aliens who killed the humans.

All done by species who "knew each other" I liked how in the first movies the Aliens origin was a mystery.

I also feel bad for what’s her name archeologist.

I wish the movie was about her exploring the new planet and the engineer's civilization.

[Mordar]

*I finished eating my popcorn.*

Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupted this wonderful debate but I do have a question to asked. Do both of you have any proof of your sources at all? I'm not siding with anybody but it seems like a stalemate to seen which of you is right and/or wrong about the movie. :smile:

Well, I think they are approaching the issue from different points, with different sourcing requirements.

One is: What could be viable explanations that would shore up any discrepancies between the Alien mythology presented in Group A (Alien and Aliens...and maybe even crappy #3 and 4) and that presented in Group B (Prometheus and A:C)?

The other is: Based only on the material presented in Groups A and B can differences in the mythology be reconciled, even if distilling it to just the film Alien and Group B?

So both source the films...but one allows speculation outside the films and the other does not.

Me? I'm in the "hack" camp. Particularly since Aliens was the best of the films. :smalltongue:

- M

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, I think they are approaching the issue from different points, with different sourcing requirements.

One is: What could be viable explanations that would shore up any discrepancies between the Alien mythology presented in Group A (Alien and Aliens...and maybe even crappy #3 and 4) and that presented in Group B (Prometheus and A:C)?

The other is: Based only on the material presented in Groups A and B can differences in the mythology be reconciled, even if distilling it to just the film Alien and Group B?

So both source the films...but one allows speculation outside the films and the other does not.

Me? I'm in the "hack" camp. Particularly since Aliens was the best of the films. :smalltongue:

- M
Ok. Thank you for pointing it out. I read the whole thread and I was watching these two are debating so I didn't want to side with anyone. But I must admit it was very entertaining and intriguing to see an Alien movie debate.

[-D-]

Nevertheless the individual Engineer in question drank what he drank for some reason. Intelligent beings don't generally do things without having reasons.
Maybe one of his buddies dared him to populate Earth. Or maybe he was suicidal eco extremist (I MUST GREEN THE EARTH WITH MY BONES), without any religious overtones.




Kind of like how David decided to make cannisters carrying a deadly disease BOTH more fragile and more murderous?
Yeah, but he is a machine. Face huggers/Xenomorph's generally ignore him. Engineer's can't carry around eggs, without them bursting and face hugging them to death. Also David is Xeno-whisperer (see Alien:Covenant) and he doesn't intend to drop them from the airplane, like Engineers.




My solution is that the advanced technology that produced the Aliens, via David, in Alien: Covenant, necessarily contained the potential for such production, which other intelligent beings, such as the Engineers, could have exploited to create the Aliens we saw in Alien.
No intelligent organic being would make Alien eggs. David is inorganic and can't be infected by black goo or face huggers. Him inventing/discovering "face huggers" makes sense, since he is a sadistic prick and has a massive God complex. Plus, he won't just drop his babies en masse out of the carrier, like Engineers intended with black goo.



That the Engineers shared DNA with Earthlings was established in Prometheus. Given their ability to produce advanced bioweapons, it's not inconceivable that they might have produced larger versions of themselves. It's a mystery containing no contradictory elements. Did you pick apart Alien too and show how Scott was then a young hack?
You're missing a key point here. When Alien came out, those big creatures were meant as a warning to puny humans, that something destroyed this huge space faring species. With Prometheus + A:C, the giant space fearing creatures, were just human ancestors that spilt some goo, and got killed by it.


*I finished eating my popcorn.*

Excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupted this wonderful debate but I do have a question to asked. Do both of you have any proof of your sources at all? I'm not siding with anybody but it seems like a stalemate to seen which of you is right and/or wrong about the movie. :smile:
Well, last time I sourced Ridley Scott, Donnadogsoth complained I was using information outside of movies. I'm merely pointing out, how he is also using stuff outside movies, to land at conclusions that make no sense.

The story of Prometheus/Alien:Covenant as explained by Ridley Scott, is way, way dumber. Engineers made us, and sent their emissary Jesus to teach us the way of the Engineers. We killed him, they got pissed and sent their ship to exterminate us.


If you look at it as an 'our children are misbehaving down there' scenario, there are moments where it looks like we've gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, 'Let's send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it.' Guess what? They crucified him.
http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=25119&count=0

That ship is the one from Prometheus. Which begs the question, why didn't people on Engineer planet find it weird that an 2100+ year old spaceship is landing. It would be like a Greek Galley parked in New York port.





Me? I'm in the "hack" camp. Particularly since Aliens was the best of the films. :smalltongue:

- M
Yes. Finally, someone who likes the best film of Alien franchise.

Here is deleted footage from Alien, that demonstrated Ridley Scott, less old hack. Apparently he wanted Xenomorph to go all four like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR5jYeIMBKk

[Donnadogsoth]

Maybe one of his buddies dared him to populate Earth.Or maybe he was suicidal eco extremist (I MUST GREEN THE EARTH WITH MY BONES), without any religious overtones.*

What someone is willing to die for generally is their religion, in a broad sense.

The point is, an Engineer has been willing to die for the sake of some end. The Aliens may well be part of that end, especially since we have seen them, apparently, in the murals in the Engineer ship in Prometheus, and we have seen a proto-Alien emerge from an Engineer at the end of the same film.


Yeah, but he is a machine. Face huggers/Xenomorph's generally ignore him. Engineer's can't carry around eggs, without them bursting and face hugging them to death. Also David is Xeno-whisperer (see Alien:Covenant) and he doesn't intend to drop them from the airplane, like Engineers.

Where in any of the films are the Engineers portrayed as people who never take risks?


No intelligent organic being would make Alien eggs. David is inorganic and can't be infected by black goo or face huggers. Him inventing/discovering "face huggers" makes sense, since he is a sadistic prick and has a massive God complex. Plus, he won't just drop his babies en masse out of the carrier, like Engineers intended with black goo.

Non sequitir. Intelligent organic beings do lots of crazy things, including building H-bombs and genetically tinkering with the E Coli bacteria vital to their own survival.



You're missing a key point here. When Alien came out, those big creatures were meant as a warning to puny humans, that something destroyed this huge space faring species. With Prometheus + A:C, the giant space fearing creatures, were just human ancestors that spilt some goo, and got killed by it.

All I know from Alien in light of Prometheus is that there was what looked like an oversized Engineer in a ship who had apparently been chest-bursted and was carrying a load of Alien eggs.

The key point of all this is that once we remove the impossible options to explain the Engineer ship containing Aliens on LV-426, the remaining possible option is that the Engineers either found, or created, said Aliens.

[Bartmanhomer]

Maybe one of his buddies dared him to populate Earth. Or maybe he was suicidal eco extremist (I MUST GREEN THE EARTH WITH MY BONES), without any religious overtones.



Yeah, but he is a machine. Face huggers/Xenomorph's generally ignore him. Engineer's can't carry around eggs, without them bursting and face hugging them to death. Also David is Xeno-whisperer (see Alien:Covenant) and he doesn't intend to drop them from the airplane, like Engineers.



No intelligent organic being would make Alien eggs. David is inorganic and can't be infected by black goo or face huggers. Him inventing/discovering "face huggers" makes sense, since he is a sadistic prick and has a massive God complex. Plus, he won't just drop his babies en masse out of the carrier, like Engineers intended with black goo.


You're missing a key point here. When Alien came out, those big creatures were meant as a warning to puny humans, that something destroyed this huge space faring species. With Prometheus + A:C, the giant space fearing creatures, were just human ancestors that spilt some goo, and got killed by it.


Well, last time I sourced Ridley Scott, Donnadogsoth complained I was using information outside of movies. I'm merely pointing out, how he is also using stuff outside movies, to land at conclusions that make no sense.

The story of Prometheus/Alien:Covenant as explained by Ridley Scott, is way, way dumber. Engineers made us, and sent their emissary Jesus to teach us the way of the Engineers. We killed him, they got pissed and sent their ship to exterminate us.


http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=25119&count=0

That ship is the one from Prometheus. Which begs the question, why didn't people on Engineer planet find it weird that an 2100+ year old spaceship is landing. It would be like a Greek Galley parked in New York port.




Yes. Finally, someone who likes the best film of Alien franchise.

Here is deleted footage from Alien, that demonstrated Ridley Scott, less old hack. Apparently he wanted Xenomorph to go all four like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR5jYeIMBKk
Oh I see. *I refill my popcorn and return to my seat and eat the popcorn to continue watching the debate.* This is way entertaining than any Aliens movie. :smile:

[-D-]

What someone is willing to die for generally is their religion, in a broad sense
Wat. That's has absolutely nothing with anything. Lots of people died trying to prove they can fly. Doesn't mean flying is their religion...




Where in any of the films are the Engineers portrayed as people who never take risks?

Non sequitir. Intelligent organic beings do lots of crazy things, including building H-bombs and genetically tinkering with the E Coli bacteria vital to their own survival.

There is huge difference between throwing a live grenade and swallowing one.

First action is risky. Second one is suicidal.

Our weapons don't have the tendency to track us down and violently murder us. E. Coli tinkering is not the same. It's a common, easy to modify bacteria. And even then in case of outbreak we have safety measures. What safety measures do eggs have? Oh, right. None.

At least goo is kept in ampules.

[Donnadogsoth]

Wat. That's has absolutely nothing with anything. Lots of people died trying to prove they can fly. Doesn't mean flying is their religion...

The root of religion is "ligare" meaning "to bind" from which we get "ligament" and "ligature". Religion is literally what someone binds themselves to. So, yes, in a sense some people do have flying as a religion, or discovery and experimentation, or daredevilry or bragging rights.


There is huge difference between throwing a live grenade and swallowing one.

First action is risky. Second one is suicidal.

And we know that at least one Engineer was suicidal (or trickable).


Our weapons don't have the tendency to track us down and violently murder us. E. Coli tinkering is not the same. It's a common, easy to modify bacteria. And even then in case of outbreak we have safety measures. What safety measures do eggs have? Oh, right. None.

At least goo is kept in ampules.

You have not debunked what I have said, you have just ignored it and said that the Engineers would never do anything risky like making the Aliens. If they're capable of doing that (as we know they are given that a being from a less-evolved civilisation like David managed to do it using Engineer resources), they're capable of taking countermeasures. Even if they didn't create the Aliens, they certainly found them somewhere and incorporated them into their technology (as we know from the final scene of Prometheus).

[zook1shoe]

Loved the movie, seeing it in an XD cinema was amazing.

[-D-]

The root of religion is "ligare"....
This is Etymological fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy). You are disagreeing on basic word meaning, now? Seems like you ran out of arguments.



And we know that at least one Engineer was suicidal (or trickable).
Great, so a race of suicidal and/or gullible idiots, managed to create highly adaptive biological weapon, ships, holograms, life support, while having the preservation instinct of a zealous lemming. That sounds extremely NON-plausible.



You have not debunked what I have said, you have just ignored it and said that the Engineers would never do anything risky like making the Aliens. If they're capable of doing that (as we know they are given that a being from a less-evolved civilisation like David managed to do it using Engineer resources), they're capable of taking countermeasures. Even if they didn't create the Aliens, they certainly found them somewhere and incorporated them into their technology (as we know from the final scene of Prometheus).
Yes. Yes I did. You mentioned nukes an E. coli as examples.

First off, nukes while dangerous, are highly targeted. You can't fire nuke at say N. Korea, only to discover your nuke got hungry and decided to go to New York instead. Also, nukes don't virally spread and destroy the entire earth.

Second, you mentioned E.Coli which was WTF to me. E.Coli is a harmless gut bacteria that causes death only in extreme circumstances. It's used in research because its a good single cellular model, and easy to breed. Kinda like rats are a good human organ model and are easy to breed.

My point ever and always was: Why would any intelligent organic being (i.e. can be eaten by Alien, unlike David) in the name of everloving ****, have black goo and decide to develop Alien eggs?

Aliens offer no benefit over goo, and if they did, why weren't eggs on Engineer ship Prometheus found? And so far you haven't answered it. Your best answer, is they are religious zealots. If they were that religious and zealous, why were there canisters and not eggs.

For all we know, the picture of Xenomorph mural could have a sign below, saying IF YOU **** UP, THESE THINGS WILL CRAWL OUT OF YOUR CHEST.

[Donnadogsoth]

This is Etymological fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy). You are disagreeing on basic word meaning, now? Seems like you ran out of arguments.

It remains possible they were doing it for religious motives, as the murals and suicide suggests.



Great, so a race of suicidal and/or gullible idiots, managed to create highly adaptive biological weapon, ships, holograms, life support, while having the preservation instinct of a zealous lemming. That sounds extremely NON-plausible.

Given that the alternative is time travelling wizards, yes, that's plausible.


Yes. Yes I did. You mentioned nukes an E. coli as examples.

First off, nukes while dangerous, are highly targeted. You can't fire nuke at say N. Korea, only to discover your nuke got hungry and decided to go to New York instead. Also, nukes don't virally spread and destroy the entire earth.

Second, you mentioned E.Coli which was WTF to me. E.Coli is a harmless gut bacteria that causes death only in extreme circumstances. It's used in research because its a good single cellular model, and easy to breed. Kinda like rats are a good human organ model and are easy to breed.

My point ever and always was: Why would any intelligent organic being (i.e. can be eaten by Alien, unlike David) in the name of everloving ****, have black goo and decide to develop Alien eggs?

Aliens offer no benefit over goo, and if they did, why weren't eggs on Engineer ship Prometheus found? And so far you haven't answered it. Your best answer, is they are religious zealots. If they were that religious and zealous, why were there canisters and not eggs.

For all we know, the picture of Xenomorph mural could have a sign below, saying IF YOU **** UP, THESE THINGS WILL CRAWL OUT OF YOUR CHEST.

Nuclear weapons are an existential threat to our civilisation. We survived only through the MAD principle. It's not implausible to think that the Engineers created something similarly threatening. E Coli is necessary to our survival; screwing it up with genetic engineering might not be a good plan.

You have your choice: either the Engineers created (or found and transported) the Aliens for reasons unknown, or else time wizards and Scott is a hack.

[-D-]

It remains possible they were doing it for religious motives, as the murals and suicide suggests.
Wat.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/173/580/Wat.jpg?1315930588

Let's step back: We were discussing how people died to prove a point or just doing science, and you are saying yeah, those people were religious, because ligare means to bind oneself <insert semantic sophistry>.
At this point I am head desking so hard, my desk is turning into sawdust.

Murals only point that Engineers knew it might create Xenomorph. Not eggs, just Xenomorph. And as far as we know, the Murals might be their version of a warning sign.



Given that the alternative is time travelling wizards, yes, that's plausible.
You do realize that was an off-hand joke I made? You are taking a joke I made way too literally. To the point, you haven't stopped even though I asked you - repeatedly .

The alternative is that you have race of idiots, that invented space travel, holograms, complex bio weapon, while having about as much preservation instinct of a crossbreed of dodo and a lemming. Maybe engineers unleashed some kind of stupidity virus seeing how "humans" act in the movie. Sadly, it seems this infection of stupidity mostly affects people in Prometheus and Alien:Covenant.

Or, R. Scott is a hack, that has an onset of GLS (George Lucas Syndrome).


Nuclear weapons are an existential threat to our civilisation. We survived only through the MAD principle. It's not implausible to think that the Engineers created something similarly threatening. E Coli is necessary to our survival; screwing it up with genetic engineering might not be a good plan.
The biggest existential threat so far is actually climate change. People don't want wars, but aren't quick enough to realize they are at fault for climate. And we are currently living in time of unprecedented peace. If MAD is to thank for that, that's fine.

E. Coli is a symbiotic, but it's not super vital to our survival. Also, people don't randomly imbibe substances used in experiments, so we are free to have fun with it, as long as we don't suddenly become Engineers (the race, not the profession) and decide we need to ingest every experiment.

[Mordar]

Given that the alternative is time travelling wizards, yes, that's plausible.

You have your choice: either the Engineers created (or found and transported) the Aliens for reasons unknown, or else time wizards and Scott is a hack.

Why is it time wizards AND hack? The simplest answer seems to be someone either forgot about the timing issue and slapped bad dates on A:C, or just didn't care about them. Given other information, it seems pretty solid it is "just didn't care about them".

Another speculative possibility: A new regime took hold on earth and changed the calendar from a Gregorian count from AD to a calendar based on the birth of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Thus the date for Alien (2122) is actually 2005 (calendar change) + 18 (difference between A:C at 2104) years later, so by the calendar in use during A:C, the Nostromo Incident occurred at 2104 + 2023 = 4127.

Given the stupidity of some of the crew on the Covenant and the fact that they were the folks put in charge, it is easy to believe that leadership on earth had devolved to epic levels of silliness, making it ripe for a FSM takeover. Of course, being in hypersleep the Covenant crew didn't know it, so they reported their dates based on the calendar of the old ways. By the time the Nostromo (and later Hicks and his squad) hit LV-426 the FSM Calendar was in full and regular use, and earth had re-stabilized into a planet capable of being ruled by rightful masters, Corporations. Thus the greater levels of competency and capability are now understood, and the glaring question brought about by the two dates is reconciled.

Oh, and the Engineer that was chest-burst on LV-426? He was hired by David to fly his eggs around, and befitting the crewing decisions made in the Covenant era, he was a very bad driver. With bad eating habits.

Solved. You're welcome.

:smalltongue:

- M

[-D-]

Given the stupidity of some of the crew on the Covenant and the fact that they were the folks put in charge, it is easy to believe that leadership on earth had devolved to epic levels of silliness, making it ripe for a FSM takeover. Of course, being in hypersleep the Covenant crew didn't know it, so they reported their dates based on the calendar of the old ways. By the time the Nostromo (and later Hicks and his squad) hit LV-426 the FSM Calendar was in full and regular use, and earth had re-stabilized into a planet capable of being ruled by rightful masters, Corporations. Thus the greater levels of competency and capability are now understood, and the glaring question brought about by the two dates is reconciled.

Oh, and the Engineer that was chest-burst on LV-426? He was hired by David to fly his eggs around, and befitting the crewing decisions made in the Covenant era, he was a very bad driver. With bad eating habits.

Solved. You're welcome.

:smalltongue:

- M
NOTE: Following text is a joke.

No, the Engineers unleashed a stupid virus. The virus, then made them forget what things do, so they have to slap the warning "Xenomorphs bad" to stop Engineers from drinking black goo or making Alien face hugger eggs (they used them in omelettes, but forget the facehugers are resistant to high temperatures and are very angryy). The Stupid Virus, is within human DNA, because the one Engineer sacrificing himself on a dare (you see him in Prometheus); however the Stupid Virus is dormant, and only reveals itself when they are too close to Engineer worlds. That's why Alien people act semi sensible, while Prometheus and A:C act like total idiots.

[Donnadogsoth]

Let's step back: We were discussing how people died to prove a point or just doing science, and you are saying yeah, those people were religious, because ligare means to bind oneself <insert semantic sophistry>.*
At this point I am head desking so hard, my desk is turning into sawdust.
Oh, you're joking again. I see. Anyway, the Engineer at the beginning of Prometheus was certainly “bound” to something. Why not the others as well?


Murals only point that Engineers knew it might create Xenomorph. Not eggs, just Xenomorph. And as far as we know, the Murals might be their version of a warning sign.
They needed a mural to remind them of potential bad outcomes? Did the NORAD War Room have a big picture of a mushroom cloud in it to remind the generals that nuclear war is bad?

You do realize that was an off-hand joke I made? You are taking a joke I made way too literally. To the point, you haven't stopped even though I asked you - repeatedly .

You made the joke way too long for me not to wonder if you're serious. Now it appears your fallback position is that Scott is a hack.


The alternative is that you have race of idiots, that invented space travel, holograms, complex bio weapon, while having about as much preservation instinct of a crossbreed of dodo and a lemming. Maybe engineers unleashed some kind of stupidity virus seeing how "humans" act in the movie. Sadly, it seems this infection of stupidity mostly affects people in Prometheus and Alien:Covenant.

Or, R. Scott is a hack, that has an onset of GLS (George Lucas Syndrome).

Or, they have some weird religion that involves sacrifice, and/or they're great risk takers, and/or their technology allows them to control Aliens.

But, I think you should rest on Scott being a hack. Nothing else makes sense according to your arguments.


The biggest existential threat so far is actually climate change. People don't want wars, but aren't quick enough to realize they are at fault for climate. And we are currently living in time of unprecedented peace. If MAD is to thank for that, that's fine.

No, it's nuclear war. We can adapt to whatever the climate throws at us; we can't adapt to having our economy bombed into the Stone Age.


E. Coli is a symbiotic, but it's not super vital to our survival. Also, people don't randomly imbibe substances used in experiments, so we are free to have fun with it, as long as we don't suddenly become Engineers (the race, not the profession) and decide we need to ingest every experiment.

Might not be a good idea to mess with our intestinal flora, especially when we know so little about genetic engineering AND we remain politically inharmonious. How long is it before someone weaponises these things?

[-D-]

Oh, you're joking again.
I clearly separated the jokes, since saying someone is a time wizard in SciFi movies, wasn't obvious :smallsigh:


I see. Anyway, the Engineer at the beginning of Prometheus was certainly “bound” to something. Why not the others as well?
Sure, but you can't guess it was religious. For all we know, he was just being eco friendly.


They needed a mural to remind them of potential bad outcomes? Did the NORAD War Room have a big picture of a mushroom cloud in it to remind the generals that nuclear war is bad?
Maybe they have short attention span (Going by R. Scott they kinda forgot about us for 2000 years :P); or maybe that's illustration of their history - they could be great history buffs and enjoy fables of unhappy accidents as reminders.


Now it appears your fallback position is that Scott is a hack.
Fall back? No, that's been my default position. He forgot what Alien/Aliens etc look like. Hell the Xenomorph runner in A:C doesn't look like Xenomorph runner from Alien. Unless Aliens Evolved into CGI :P


Or, they have some weird religion that involves sacrifice, and/or they're great risk takers, and/or their technology allows them to control Aliens.
If they are so religious and praised Xenomorphs, and had means to control them, why didn't Prometheus ship had eggs? Why was it carrying around black goo?


No, it's nuclear war. We can adapt to whatever the climate throws at us
AHAHAHA. Oh, wait. You're serious. You have no idea what Earth's been through, do you? Let's say: Acid rains that melt rocks. Hurricanes, that wreck mountains. I'm sure we can survive that... Just develop acidic blood and voila.

Greatest threat from Nuclear war is A) Fallout and B) Nuclear winter. Except Nuclear Winter can be caused by enough of relatively clean Hydrogen bombs. Two three years of no food, and we'll be back to cannibalism.


Might not be a good idea to mess with our intestinal flora, especially when we know so little about genetic engineering AND we remain politically inharmonious. How long is it before someone weaponises these things?
That's like trying to weaponize Chihuahuas, when there are perfectly natural Posionous Super Lions and Hydras (see plagues and measles).

[Donnadogsoth]

Sure, but you can't guess it was religious. For all we know, he was just being eco friendly.

Then being eco-friendly is his religion.


Fall back? No, that's been my default position. He forgot what Alien/Aliens etc look like. Hell the Xenomorph runner in A:C doesn't look like Xenomorph runner from Alien. Unless Aliens Evolved into CGI :P

The Aliens look different in every film, as you will have noticed.

But, okay, you think he's a hack, I don't. I've explained why I think so, you likewise. Why are we talking?


f they are so religious and praised Xenomorphs, and had means to control them, why didn't Prometheus ship had eggs? Why was it carrying around black goo?

Who knows if they praise them, who knows exactly why they created them? Religion is a general reason, not a specific one.


AHAHAHA. Oh, wait. You're serious. You have no idea what Earth's been through, do you? Let's say: Acid rains that melt rocks. Hurricanes, that wreck mountains. I'm sure we can survive that... Just develop acidic blood and voila.

You expect any of that to happen soon?


Greatest threat from Nuclear war is A) Fallout and B) Nuclear winter. Except Nuclear Winter can be caused by enough of relatively clean Hydrogen bombs. Two three years of no food, and we'll be back to cannibalism.

Beside blast radii that destroy the world's megalopoli.


That's like trying to weaponize Chihuahuas, when there are perfectly natural Posionous Super Lions and Hydras (see plagues and measles).

Possibly, possibly not. E Coli has killed people in the past. We're at such an early stage of knowledge we don't know.

[Palanan]

So, I just watched this movie, and my only consolation is that I didn’t pay to see it in the theater, which is cold comfort indeed.

I love the first two Alien movies, and try not to think about the rest. I disliked Prometheus for any number of reasons—chief of which being the utter lack of professionalism or intelligent protocols on the part of the so-called scientists.

So I was in no hurry to see Covenant, and only rented it last night because I figured that, if nothing else, it would be a fun and creepy action movie with lovely visuals. I figured, hey, it couldn’t possibly be worse than Prometheus.

Gawd. Just…gawd.

The movie was pointlessly nihilistic, not fun and not even remotely scary. It’s an Alien movie, so you know most of the characters won’t be coming back—but it gives you no reason to care at all. Each of the first two movies gave us an ensemble group with quirky, memorable and sympathetic characters. The blue-collar griping of the Nostromo crew was inspired for its time, a perfect foil for the high-minded space explorers from other movie franchises; and the earthy camaraderie of the marines from Aliens made them instantly likable.

But there’s none such with the crew of the S.S. Forgettable. They’re a bland, pseudo-diverse group, with none of the underlying passion you’d expect from a group of one-way interstellar pioneers. Yes, Daniels is sympathetic because she’s just lost her husband, in a contrived spaceboard accident; but the rest of the crew is unmemorable, almost impossible to tell apart as characters. —Wait, wait: one guy is called “Tennessee.” Wow, what color!

Besides passion, they’re also lacking mission focus and basic common sense. It’s beyond absurd that a vessel built for a single purpose—to safely transport several thousand people to a predetermined colony world—should go haring off to chase a stray signal in a completely different system. The rationale is utterly contrived: the replacement captain is unsure of himself and caves to peer pressure. The pressure should have been in the opposite direction—stay on mission, log the contact and continue on course to the destination they’ve planned for, rather than ad-libbing a survey mission when they obviously don’t have the gear or the expertise to pull it off.

The poor decisions and plot contrivances only pile up from there—including, among many others, the constant habit of characters to wander off on their own, even after they know that deadly creatures are skittering around in the dark. There was no real tension, since each character’s demise was thoroughly predictable—especially the replacement captain’s, whose horrid fate was literally written on the wall.

And the facehugger scene brings us to continuity issues with the rest of the franchise. At this point the Aliens movies are starting to feel about as much of a blithering mess as the X-Men movies, and this latest installment only muddled things even worse. The inference is that David himself designed the classic facehuggers—which is an absurd disappointment, and it also raises the question of how the queen from Aliens came to be laying the pods on LV-426.

None of this is really explained, which makes the movie frustrating as well as gimmicky and contrived. Why did David commit genocide against the Engineers? Why did he betray Elizabeth Shaw? How does David’s apparent Sinister PlanTM lead to what we’ve seen in prior installments? And how did all those carbonized corpses survive ten years of hurricane-force storms?

At this point I’m afraid I just don’t care, and if there are future films in the franchise, Covenant has all but ensured I won’t be watching them. When I went into the movie, I wasn’t sure if this was a direct sequel to Prometheus or a side trip to fill time while Prometheus II was being developed. But Covenant is pretty clearly the direct sequel, and it hasn’t given me a single reason to hope for more.

.