Make me a movie trope "basic white girl'' character

[TundraBuccaneer]

I coined the idea in my group to play as 'basic white (naughty word)' as a one shot, the reaction of my group was: what do you mean one shot? So I was wandering in what way would other people make a character?:smallbiggrin:

I my self would be a tiefling bard that buff by saying thing like: O M G did you hear what that guy said about your pantaloons? Or yelling I'm like literally to hot for you, when casting hellish rebuke.
Someone else would basically be playing Gaston from beauty and the beast, as barbarian. because none rolls crits like Gaston

So how would you do this?:smallsmile:

[nickl_2000]

Not your full build like you asked, but She would have Boots of Winter (uggs) and prestidigitation to instantly clean them whenever they got mud on them.


Also, while I personally don't care, I could see this as offensive to some people

[Beelzebubba]

Gotta be a Beast Ranger that carries around a little dog in a handbag

[Specter]

Gotta be a Beast Ranger that carries around a little dog in a handbag

I laughed hard at this.

Well, it's mostly a matter of roleplay. Dump INT and WIS hard, then go to town.

PS: Based on my experience with women, all the dumb ones are like this, not just the whites.

[TundraBuccaneer]

Not your full build like you asked, but She would have Boots of Winter (uggs) and prestidigitation to instantly clean them whenever they got mud on them.




Uggs are a good call. Especially with prestidigitation , i was also thinking of using prestidigitation to make a tiny mirror for make-up.


Also, while I personally don't care, I could see this as offensive to some people

I realize it could be taken as offensive, but I"m making fun of a stereotype (and myself) not a person or ethnic group. And stereotypes exist as something to make fun of because it is an exaggeration. It's or at least I don't mean any harm or insult towards someone. I just want to have fun (pun not intended but proud to present it).:smallwink:


Gotta be a Beast Ranger that carries around a little dog in a handbag

This is awesome :smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

I realize it could be taken as offensive, but I"m making fun of a stereotype (and myself) not a person or ethnic group. And stereotypes exist as something to make fun of because it is an exaggeration. It's or at least I don't mean any harm or insult towards someone. I just want to have fun (pun not intended but proud to present it).:smallwink:


Fair enough :) I'm sure it is one of those rules on the internet that anyone said in a forum can and will be considered offensive.



What else is stereotypical... Always on their smartphones, maybe you can get an Orb of Scrying and have her on it all the time.

[TundraBuccaneer]

What else is stereotypical... Always on their smartphones, maybe you can get an Orb of Scrying and have her on it all the time.

Sending stones with minor illusion visual? Star golds coffee?

[nickl_2000]

Sending stones with minor illusion visual? Perfect.

I was working on how to include Star Bucks coffee into the stereotype, but just couldn't get there with anything that made any sense.

[Steampunkette]

The whole "Basic White Girl" trope is just a permutation of literally every "Girls like this thing so let's make fun of it" situation.

Whether it's comfy and warm boots that are in fashion, a tasty seasonal beverage, or the realization that your pet is small enough to carry around with you in a manner that isn't entirely socially distasteful (As compared to dudes carrying their pet rats or snakes in backpacks or pockets)

Valley Girl accents, Basic White Girl, Wearing too much Pink, taking too many selfies, indulging in food pics, lifting the end of a statement in pitch, etc etc etc.

If a bunch of women are doing it, it gets ridiculed.

But if you want to make fun of the "Basic White Girl" stereotype, I'd honestly suggest making a character who appears for all intents and purposes to fit the stereotype, then show her depth of character and the real person underneath the ridiculed portions of her attire and style.

Avoid dumbing the character down, ultimately, is what I'm suggesting. Otherwise you're just making fun of any woman who appears to conform to the stereotype.

[ko_sct]

So how would you do this?:smallsmile:

.... I would'nt ?

Because, as Steampunkette pointed out, basic white girl is pretty much just a stupid stereotype making fun of womens for liking popular things.

You do what you want in your game, and poking fun at stereotypes can be a lot of fun, but you dont really need any mechanical build to make a stereotypical character.

[kladams707]

The whole "Basic White Girl" trope is just a permutation of literally every "Girls like this thing so let's make fun of it" situation.

Whether it's comfy and warm boots that are in fashion, a tasty seasonal beverage, or the realization that your pet is small enough to carry around with you in a manner that isn't entirely socially distasteful (As compared to dudes carrying their pet rats or snakes in backpacks or pockets)

Valley Girl accents, Basic White Girl, Wearing too much Pink, taking too many selfies, indulging in food pics, lifting the end of a statement in pitch, etc etc etc.

If a bunch of women are doing it, it gets ridiculed.

But if you want to make fun of the "Basic White Girl" stereotype, I'd honestly suggest making a character who appears for all intents and purposes to fit the stereotype, then show her depth of character and the real person underneath the ridiculed portions of her attire and style.

Avoid dumbing the character down, ultimately, is what I'm suggesting. Otherwise you're just making fun of any woman who appears to conform to the stereotype.

This. I suggest going the Elle Woods route. Instead of a lawyer, be an Eldritch knight or wizard who is really into fashion and the latest trends. Make sure to pick up Find Familiar and just give Bruiser the cat's stats (may need to wait awhile or pick up magic initiate if you go EK).

[solidork]

This. I suggest going the Elle Woods route. Instead of a lawyer, be an Eldritch knight or wizard who is really into fashion and the latest trends. Make sure to pick up Find Familiar and just give Bruiser the cat's stats (may need to wait awhile or pick up magic initiate if you go EK).

I was also going to suggest Elle Woods. What about a Glamour Bard, from UA?

[Dr.Samurai]

Also, while I personally don't care, I could see this as offensive to some people
We could just not talk about anything. Ever. :smalltongue:

I'll wait for the pushback on the person playing Gaston as a barbarian... "Yeah, play Gaston, but make him super sensitive, and brainy, and self aware. That's the only way you can do it right."

*crickets*

The suggestions so far (not including the commentary on stereotypes) are good. Maybe have the character sketch pictures of their legs in a tub, or along the river bank, during downtime (since there are no cameras).

[Steampunkette]

We could just not talk about anything. Ever. :smalltongue:

I'll wait for the pushback on the person playing Gaston as a barbarian... "Yeah, play Gaston, but make him super sensitive, and brainy, and self aware. That's the only way you can do it right."

*crickets*

The suggestions so far (not including the commentary on stereotypes) are good. Maybe have the character sketch pictures of their legs in a tub, or along the river bank, during downtime (since there are no cameras).

Gaston is a specific character from a recognizable work.

Basic White Girl is any girl who fits into a certain stereotype.

One of these things is not like the other! One of these things just isn't the same!

[Dr.Samurai]

Gaston is hyper-masculine. He is a dude-bro. Gaston "is any [guy] who fits into a certain stereotype."

We make fun of dude bros, and basic bros, and gym rats. Women are no different. We stereotype everyone and everything. It's ok. The one thing that we all share in common is that we can all be made fun of. No one is immune to this, and stereotypes aren't sexist by virtue of being a stereotype of women.

The criticism that "basic white girl" is *simply* a stereotype of any girl that likes popular things is meaningless. Many of us are stereotyped as "geeks" *simply* because we like certain things (typically not mainstream). This doesn't somehow take away from the stereotype or make it malicious or harmful.

There is nothing wrong with women liking Starbucks, Uggs, selfies, carrying their little dog around, etc. All of that is fine. The notion that it is only okay if the woman is also intelligent is problematic and a cause for concern. Let people be who they are, and let people poke fun at them for it.

@OP: The group should take portraits of themselves at any new location. Like, making a duckface outside the Temple of Elemental Evil, or blowing kisses standing in the entrance of the War Tower at Castle Greyhawk.

[CantigThimble]

Using stereotypes in jokes and fantasy is fine as long as the people you're with can differentiate between jokes/fantasy and reality. If you know that you and they can differentiate then you don't need to go out of your way to *prove* that you can by challenging the stereotype at every turn.

[pangoo209]

Be a druid, but only use spells to make things look pretty. Druidcraft flowers to put in your hair, etc.

[Steampunkette]

Gaston is hyper-masculine. He is a dude-bro. Gaston "is any [guy] who fits into a certain stereotype."

Gaston was a character before Dudebros were a thing. 15 or so -years- before.

Still a false equivalence.

[CantigThimble]

Gaston was a character before Dudebros were a thing. 15 or so -years- before.

Still a false equivalence.

I think he was making that reference to Gaston in the modern context where he would be considered a dudebro.

[TundraBuccaneer]

The whole "Basic White Girl" trope is just a permutation of literally every "Girls like this thing so let's make fun of it" situation.

Whether it's comfy and warm boots that are in fashion, a tasty seasonal beverage, or the realization that your pet is small enough to carry around with you in a manner that isn't entirely socially distasteful (As compared to dudes carrying their pet rats or snakes in backpacks or pockets)

Valley Girl accents, Basic White Girl, Wearing too much Pink, taking too many selfies, indulging in food pics, lifting the end of a statement in pitch, etc etc etc.

If a bunch of women are doing it, it gets ridiculed.

But if you want to make fun of the "Basic White Girl" stereotype, I'd honestly suggest making a character who appears for all intents and purposes to fit the stereotype, then show her depth of character and the real person underneath the ridiculed portions of her attire and style.

Avoid dumbing the character down, ultimately, is what I'm suggesting. Otherwise you're just making fun of any woman who appears to conform to the stereotype.

First of I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else that with this thread, that was not my intention.

My groups doesn't play often and consists of artiest who have to sink al their creativities in serious work fore weeks before we can play again. So we like to play games light heartedly. If the characters develop more depth then that would be interesting and fun.
But to start off we would like to be a comedic movie variant of D&D. As for the dumbing down a lot of my interesting characters were very stupid and played as such, tip don't insult a adult blue dragon as a lvl 2 character even if words are your only ranged weapon.

[Steampunkette]

First of I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else that with this thread, that was not my intention.

My groups doesn't play often and consists of artiest who have to sink al their creativities in serious work fore weeks before we can play again. So we like to play games light heartedly. If the characters develop more depth then that would be interesting and fun.
But to start off we would like to be a comedic movie variant of D&D. As for the dumbing down a lot of my interesting characters were very stupid and played as such, tip don't insult a adult blue dragon as a lvl 2 character even if words are your only ranged weapon.

When I say "Dumb Down" I don't mean "Don't play her if you roll a 6 for intelligence"

I mean don't play her as a facade with no depth.

Play the person behind the stereotype. Why does she like Ugg boots? What makes her giddy at the thought of a pumpkin spice latte? Etc, etc, etc.

Give her the full character.

And, for the record, I'm not offended. I'm pointing out that it's just a symptom of a continuing trend of "Ugh. Girls like things." If anything that should give you -more- fodder for this character, not less.

[Dr.Samurai]

Gaston was a character before Dudebros were a thing. 15 or so -years- before.

Still a false equivalence.
Yeah, sure. I think my point is pretty clear. If you want to double down then... be our guest :smallcool:.


@All: Do they sell coffee at taverns? I doubt it. Not sure how to get the Starbucks in there. For the Gaston character, what's the medieval equivalent of a protein shake?

[CantigThimble]

@All: Do they sell coffee at taverns? I doubt it. Not sure how to get the Starbucks in there. For the Gaston character, what's the medieval equivalent of a protein shake?

Five dozen eggs. Obviously. Become much swole.

[Maxilian]

Isn't this thread being a little bit racist? i know that normally people don't mind because we are talking about white people but still... it feels... wrong

[Demonslayer666]

Gaston was a character before Dudebros were a thing. 15 or so -years- before.

Still a false equivalence.


Nope. Gaston absolutely did not start the movement of muscleheads. He may predate the now popular term "dudebro", but misogynistic muscle-bound jerks have been around for a very long time.

[Cybren]

Gaston was a character before Dudebros were a thing. 15 or so -years- before.

Still a false equivalence.

To be fair, before "dudebros" there were other symbols of performative masculinity. In the region of the US that I'm from we called them "guidos" growing up, but other, less ethnically charged examples exist.


Isn't this thread being a little bit racist? i know that normally people don't mind because we are talking about white people but still... it feels... wrong

we're very close to straying into things that are against forum rules but I'd argue that the racism of the "basic white girl" trope is in assuming that things that people or women like generally are only "for" white people. You can't be racist against white people, generally.


@All: Do they sell coffee at taverns? I doubt it. Not sure how to get the Starbucks in there. For the Gaston character, what's the medieval equivalent of a protein shake?
They could. There's no reason to assume that particular crops or foods are only around in D&D if they were around in pre-renaissance europe. Even early-medieval D&D settings have a far greater notion of globalism than Europe did in the times that are technologically analogous. And besides, coffee comes to europe about a century after the rapier, so it's not that absurd

[Leith]

They're house shoes, man. If you walked around in fuzzy bunny slippers all the time people would think you were insane. As in mentally ill.

I would do Gaston as a cleric. And my fellow players would hate him all the more because, though he be the dudest of bros, he's... actually... really... nice...

[CantigThimble]

You can't be racist against white people, generally.

It is definitely possible to be racist aginst white people, (presuming the classical liberal definition of racism) but that's not what's going on here.

I put more stock into intent and context than interpreting precise wording and the intent is fine.

[Cybren]

It is definitely possible to be racist aginst white people, (presuming the classical liberal definition of racism) but that's not what's going on here.

I put more stock into intent and context than interpreting precise wording and the intent is fine.
This is not a discussion we really want to be having, but no, you usually can't.

[Maxilian]

we're very close to straying into things that are against forum rules but I'd argue that the racism of the "basic white girl" trope is in assuming that things that people or women like generally are only "for" white people. You can't be racist against white people, generally.


Well... the title assume it applies to a certain demographic group, that's what make it racist.

Also i don't understand why people say you can't be racist against white people? you can.

Is just not normally as bad as to anyone else, because of history and well... normally the racism to white people stay in words not actions.

Either way... OT:

Isn't there a Beer based on Coffee beans? that could work for you.

[Lombra]

Oh come on how is people offended by stereotypes nowadays (maybe I'm just a lucky insensitive guy that never felt depressed because of how people would classify him)... they are by definition (don't look up the definition, it's not that, but if you try hard enough you'll be able to get my point even if I don't write with a dictionary by my side) an abstraction to allow people to discuss about it without feeling guilty and to lift some taboos about them. Plus most of them can lead to funny jokes (I'm a black humor guy, and I believe that laughing about something is the best way to actually talk about sensitive arguments).

For the character, you should sprinkle every sentence with "like"s and be chewing something all the time. The small pet would fit very well the theme (extra points if you made it wear hand-made pink studded leather armor, or even full-plate for the lolz) and constantly complain about how unfair what you are doing is and that you keep scratching your nails, never touch anything gross and never go in places "for poor people". And be reckless about everything, even if you as a player know that it's wrong, just go for it and be either extremely stupid about something or extremely pedantic about things that she deserves. Oh right, she deserves everything, remember that.

Tone it down if the other players are clearly annoyed by your character, table fun is the first priority, even if it's just a one-shot.

PS: there probably are typos, forgive me.

[No brains]

You get Starbucks from Merfolk, duh.

Also if you want a valley girl in D&D, take inspiration from Elvira.

[Steampunkette]

Words

Dude, you live in Italy. Your whole nation is the size of one of the states in the US, and is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town. You have a completely different social expectation than all the Americans discussing stereotypes.

[Dr.Samurai]

I can assure you, 1000%, that Lombra's perspective is not limited to Italy, or lacking in the United States.

[Lombra]

Dude, you live in Italy. Your whole nation is the size of one of the states in the US, and is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town. You have a completely different social expectation than all the Americans discussing stereotypes.

I was going to write a post about how the same stereotypes are shared among the whole world because of how communication works nowadays, but I guess I'll just stare at your post shocked by the first racist comment that I ever received on a D&D forum.

[Cybren]

I was going to write a post about how the same stereotypes are shared among the whole world because of how communication works nowadays, but I guess I'll just stare at your post shocked by the first racist comment that I ever received on a D&D forum.

I mean, it could be ethnocentrist, but italian isn't a race (i say, as an italian american)

[TundraBuccaneer]

Yes please could we stop with the real world discussion I mean it more like movie tropes there it is fine thus it should be fine in a fantasy world

[Steampunkette]

Arguably ethnocentrist, definitely. Though the statement wasn't "Italian people are X" so much as "Your particular cultural remove from the context of the discussion results in at best only a tangential awareness of the cultural issues you're seeking to dismiss"

I just said it in a colorful fashion.

That said, if Lombra -does- understand the cultural underpinnings and interactions at play, his initial statement was instead remarkably callous and dismissive. I chose to assume ignorance instead of malice.

[GPS]

Dude, you live in Italy. Your whole nation is the size of one of the states in the US, and is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town. You have a completely different social expectation than all the Americans discussing stereotypes.
Damn, bringing Italian racism back all the way from 1930. Did you take inspiration from your great grandmother's diary for that one?

[Steampunkette]

Yes please could we stop with the real world discussion I mean it more like movie tropes there it is fine thus it should be fine in a fantasy world

Kind of the big thing, TB: It's not fine in movie tropes.

We've got this whole societal idea that just because it's in a work of fiction or art or something else it has no social connection. However such examples of art or idea do not exist within a vacuum. They exist within the context of the society in which they are what they are.

Without that society, and the contextual foundation it creates, it becomes meaningless.

[Dr.Samurai]

That said, if Lombra -does- understand the cultural underpinnings and interactions at play, his initial statement was instead remarkably callous and dismissive. I chose to assume ignorance instead of malice.
There is no malice there. Lombra's initial statement is that of an adult that understands how communication works, and the futility in trying to police language because of overly sensitive people.

True to form, the person attempting to defend "the marginalized" is the first to easily dismiss another person's opinion based on something as irrelevant as the country the person is located in.

[GPS]

That said, if Lombra -does- understand the cultural underpinnings and interactions at play, his initial statement was instead remarkably callous and dismissive. I chose to assume ignorance instead of malice.

Jesus Christ, you're the one who compared all Italians to hicks. You speak of Lombra's ignorance while you seem to have a lot more yourself. While his post was a harmless statement, your's seemed to be pretty full of malice. I'm sure those poor stereotypical movie "basic white girls" really appreciate your efforts to support them in these troubled times, but maybe cool it with the Pre-Great Depression era Italian hate.

OT: I really love the ranger thing and the inserting "like" into every sentence. Remember to ask every time if your rations are organic and gluten free

[Lombra]

Back on point: Pink studded leather barding for a chiuhaua pet.

[Jormengand]

Jesus Christ, you're the one who compared all Italians to hicks.

She compared the ethnic diversity in Italy to the ethnic diversity in certain parts of the USA ("Your whole nation... is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town." Emphasis mine.). There is no possible way that anyone reading that in good faith could have jumped to the conclusion which you did.

[Steampunkette]

There is no malice there. Lombra's initial statement is that of an adult that understands how communication works, and the futility in trying to police language because of overly sensitive people.

True to form, the person attempting to defend "the marginalized" is the first to easily dismiss another person's opinion based on something as irrelevant as the country the person is located in.

Yeah... no.

If a stereotype is understood to be offensive because it is a reductionist view of the individual in favor of pejorative ideology (including a slur about women), using it as shorthand is a offensive for the same reason.

Being "An adult" or "Policing Language" have nothing to do with it. It's recognizing that something is culturally understood to be offensive and using it anyway.

Lombra's post was "How can anyone be offended by stereotypes when stereotypes are used as a shorthand", as best as I understood it, citing his own lack of offense at anything as the basis. The 'I'm not offended so why is anyone' basis of argument.

As to the "Irrelevancy": We're discussing cultural mores and social issues that are based on a society which is dealing with massive subcultural disparity thanks to both it's massive size and cultural disparity. Italy has it's own social issues, of course, but does not have the same ones in the same way. Which, ultimately, points to a lack of personal experience within the problem presented.

The cultural and social differences between Italy and the US are not irrelevant when discussing cultural problems in the US with a person who is in Italy.

[Steampunkette]

She compared the ethnic diversity in Italy to the ethnic diversity in certain parts of the USA ("Your whole nation... is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town." Emphasis mine.). There is no possible way that anyone reading that in good faith could have jumped to the conclusion which you did.

^This.

Thank you, Jormengand.

[GPS]

Honestly, we've moved pretty off topic here. I doubt the OP intendes us to argue about the merits of the topic. They just want a fun stereotypical basic white girl. Anyway, if the organic/gluten free ration thing I retconned into my last post isn't really a character thing, maybe make them a vegan or something. That may get difficult with rations though. Simply demanding to know if the rations are organic would probably do a better job of keeping it in roleplay and out of mechanics.

[Dr.Samurai]

@Steampunkette: Stereotypes are reductionist. This isn't limited to the basic bitch stereotype. "Bro" is also a pejorative. Seriously, you're failing to make this into the larger more serious issue that you want it to be. What you consider to be culturally offensive is plastered all over the internet in entertaining parody videos by basic bitches and basic bros themselves. People find stereotypes funny. You are being sensitive. Speak for yourself, and no one else, because women find it funny. Americans find it funny. YOU do not. But that's your baggage and no one else's.

You don't need to be an American to understand what stereotypes are and what is reasonable offense to take and what is unreasonable offense to take. Yes Steampunkette, even Italians, despite their cultural differences, can use their Italian brains to think (in Italian of course) and understand ideas and concepts.

[MadBear]

While I don't doubt the completely innocent nature of the OP's question, there is a lack of tact about the way that this was asked.

If someone had asked how to play "Basic black guy" "basic mexican" and went on to ask about their typical tropes, this might have been flagged more easily as being problematic.

It harkens back to the idea whole "dumb blond" mentality. While, I can understand wanting to play a trope due to the ease of available stereotypical information, I can't help but think it's not the best idea.

With that said, comparing it to the typical "dude bro" isn't quite as accurate as comparing it to a less privileged group. White men typically hold more power in our society then women, and this is especially true in the RPG community where women are still very underrepresented. Typically punching up is less offensive then punching down. So the portraying the typical "dude bro" isn't great, but it isn't usually as offensive as punching down.

Now if you personally aren't offended, congratulations. That doesn't mean that others don't have the right to not feel a little offended, and judging how others feel in response is kinda an jerk move, especially if you aren't part of that group being stereotyped.

[Cybren]

"Bro" as a pejorative does not have the same material consequences as pejorative be stereotypes regarding people of color, LGBT people, etc. if you think making fun of "dudebros" is just as bad as racism, you're wrong and bad.

[GPS]

"Bro" as a pejorative does not have the same material consequences as pejorative be stereotypes regarding people of color, LGBT people, etc. if you think making fun of "dudebros" is just as bad as racism, you're wrong and bad.
Exactly! So if this applies to dudebros argument, who doesn't it apply to the "basic bitch" stereotype?

[Jormengand]

You are being sensitive. Speak for yourself, and no one else, because women find it funny. Americans find it funny. YOU do not. But that's your baggage and no one else's.

I, incidentally, don't find it funny. But don't worry, I know that some black people don't find racist attitudes problematic, some gay people don't find homophobic attitudes problematic, there will always be people who are of a group and don't see prejudice against said group as a big deal. But that doesn't deny someone else the right to be offended, or to tell people that they are spreading ideas which are hurting people. Which, incidentally, you are. I'll spare you the political explanation of how you're doing it on such a large scale, though, because, well, y'know.

[Hrugner]

You'd need to do some serious work to make the character want to adventure. The pile of attributes compiled for this archetype don't really provide a whole lot of motivation. You could go the "Legally Blonde" route and make your "basic white chick" a genius who hadn't previously had much motivation, but their character would rapidly change. That's not a bad thing of course, the archetype is based on the over simplification of trust fund kids when viewed from the outside, so having more under the hood is a good way to go.

I'd make her a wizard, have the cute and exotic pet as a familiar, and focus her early spells on things that are useful but that are repurposed for some silly pursuit. Make the character really bad with money, as they never needed to worry about money till the start of the adventure. Give her sleep, tenser's floating disk, unseen servant, prestidigitation, friends, magehand, disguise self, alarm, find familiar and feather fall. At the start she wastes her spells to flatter herself (disguise self to look like a better version of herself friends instead of social skills), but eventually grows into earning her own way. Use noble: knight as the background and let the three servants be her cadre who don't grow out of the "basic white chick" mold as much but are still loyal and helpful.

Alternatively, you could do something similar with the warlock. The self flattering magic would be pretty intense if you took at-will disguise self and your familiar could be even more exotic. I'd think a pixie familiar would be ideal. Chain and archfey for this version. The warlock also has the benefit of not flipping the archetype inherently allowing you to play the character to their stats start to finish rather than acting dumb deliberately.

Most of this is just a rewrite of my womanizer who accidentally married a fey goddess who left a pixie with him in order to force him to behave. It's the same general idea of someone playing a character in real life up until the point that they are forced to take real life seriously.

[Cybren]

Exactly! So if this applies to dudebros argument, who doesn't it apply to the "basic bitch" stereotype?

Because misogyny has real world material consequences, that was the entire point of my post

[GPS]

Because misogyny has real world material consequences, that was the entire point of my post

See, I get that argument, and I get that while "dudebros" isn't hurting anyone, the portrayal of women as stupid in media is contributing to a misogynistic societal view of women. Similarly, poking some fun at white people isn't going to hurt them, while harmful stereotypes will actually hurt non-whites. My problem is white people thinking they can have one or the other. If racism somehow goes both ways and hurts white people too, then harmful gender stereotypes should also have to by that logic.

[Cybren]

See, I get that argument, and I get that while "dudebros" isn't hurting anyone, the portrayal of women as stupid in media is contributing to a misogynistic societal view of women. My problem is white people thinking they can have one or the other. If racism goes both ways, then harmful gender stereotypes should also have to by that logic.
Racism doesn't go both ways, it goes one way. And "dudebro" is a stereotype of toxic masculinity, it's not an analagous critique.

[GPS]

Racism doesn't go both ways, it goes one way.
Thank god, I thought I was in a forum full of crazy people.

[Steampunkette]

See, I get that argument, and I get that while "dudebros" isn't hurting anyone, the portrayal of women as stupid in media is contributing to a misogynistic societal view of women. My problem is white people thinking they can have one or the other. If racism somehow goes both ways, then harmful gender stereotypes should also have to by that logic.

... racism -doesn't- go both ways.

You have the group with the power in a system where bias is rampant and the group that is not in power.

You can't be racist to white people in the US. You can be mean to them, biased against them, or other terms to describe a range of attitudes from "Petty" to "Cruel". But never Racist because of the structure of society and the inherent power disparity.

Edit: I was too slow on the post. Glad we're all on the same page, though!

[Hrugner]

I was going to write a post about how the same stereotypes are shared among the whole world because of how communication works nowadays, but I guess I'll just stare at your post shocked by the first racist comment that I ever received on a D&D forum.

Yeah, that is pretty over the top.

edit: I think I'll just back away slowly from this thread as it appears to have been colonized.

[GPS]

Yeah, that is pretty over the top.

edit: I think I'll just back away slowly from this thread as it appears to have been colonized.
Yeah, I'm not sure we're going to get back to designing that "basic white girl" character anytime soon. I'll probably skeedadle.

[Kalashak]

I legitimately do not understand how people are reading Steampunkette's comment as racism, could one of you who did read it that way explain that to me?

[Steampunkette]

I legitimately do not understand how people are reading Steampunkette's comment as racism, could one of you who did read it that way explain that to me?

Jesus Christ, you're the one who compared all Italians to hicks.

^That. Either an unintentional misreading or an intentional one with the intent to discredit/insult.

[GPS]

^That. Either an unintentional misreading or an intentional one with the intent to discredit/insult.

My bad I thought you were attempting some weird joke about Italians and inbreeding, which was why I made allusions to Italian hatred from the 1930's. The tone of your post felt a bit malignant​ too me, even thought I now know you didn't intend it that way, and it gave me the wrong idea.

[Jormengand]

You can't be racist to white people in the US. You can be mean to them, biased against them, or other terms to describe a range of attitudes from "Petty" to "Cruel". But never Racist because of the structure of society and the inherent power disparity.

Edit: I was too slow on the post. Glad we're all on the same page, though!

I would argue that it actually is possible, just exceptionally uncommon. It is entirely possible to be prejudiced or discriminatory against white people on grounds of their race - which I think is the definition that most people would immediately recognise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description) and which is probably the most useful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopragmatism) - and it is also possible to believe in the concept of race in a way which makes you against white people - which is the technical definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) - and it is also possible to be prejudiced, discriminatory, or antagonistic towards them due to a belief that your race is superior, which is the dictionary definition (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism) for what difference, if any, that makes. Some dictionaries recognise the definition that it's about heirarchy, but they don't seem to think it's the most common usage, and as far as I can tell they're right. Either way, it is entirely possible to talk about racism against white people as long as the person listening understands that you're talking about prejudice or discrimination, not systems of oppression. Which I think they usually do; they're often just being pedantic.

Not that systems of oppression against white people necessarily don't exist - whether on a microscopic scale in the USA or a larger scale in... I want to say Zimbabwe? I don't know, it was a long time since I was told that and I don't even know it was true. But either way, if they do exist they are a) way small and b) probably going to mostly go away when we tackle, y'know, the bigger issues of racism and oppression of minorities.

[Steampunkette]

My bad I thought you were attempting some weird joke about Italians and inbreeding, which was why I made allusions to Italian hatred from the 1930's.

Oh, no. It's totally cool. I understood you'd misread the post and more or less let it drop, there. Yours was just the only post which explained the misunderstanding in the words of the people who didn't get my meaning.

We're cool. :)

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

There's also the heretofore unaddressed...ooginess of painting another country with a monoracial brush. Even when cromulently applied, it feels kinda like "but you don't look X" from another angle. At least that's my non-white perspective on it. aaaaand it's resolved

I was just hoping someone in the thread would propose extrapolating the white girl role in horror films into a horror campaign. Still, discussions like these and playing with stereotypes can lead to memorable characters like the aforementioned Elle Woods and Buffy Summers, so I say keep the merfolk coffee coming.

[Steampunkette]

I would argue that it actually is possible, just exceptionally uncommon. It is entirely possible to be prejudiced or discriminatory against white people on grounds of their race - which I think is the definition that most people would immediately recognise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_description) and which is probably the most useful (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopragmatism) - and it is also possible to believe in the concept of race in a way which makes you against white people - which is the technical definition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription) - and it is also possible to be prejudiced, discriminatory, or antagonistic towards them due to a belief that your race is superior, which is the dictionary definition (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism) for what difference, if any, that makes. Some dictionaries recognise the definition that it's about heirarchy, but they don't seem to think it's the most common usage, and as far as I can tell they're right. Either way, it is entirely possible to talk about racism against white people as long as the person listening understands that you're talking about prejudice or discrimination, not systems of oppression. Which I think they usually do; they're often just being pedantic.

Not that systems of oppression against white people necessarily don't exist - whether on a microscopic scale in the USA or a larger scale in... I want to say Zimbabwe? I don't know, it was a long time since I was told that and I don't even know it was true. But either way, if they do exist they are a) way small and b) probably going to mostly go away when we tackle, y'know, the bigger issues of racism and oppression of minorities.

The Oxford dictionary definition of Evolution is: The process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

There's a heck of a lot more to what Evolution is than you can put in a dictionary. Same goes for an equally complex concept like racism.

That said, there is racism against white people in some nations around the world. Which is why I specified it in the context of racism in the US.

[Jormengand]

The Oxford dictionary definition of Evolution is: The process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

There's a heck of a lot more to what Evolution is than you can put in a dictionary. Same goes for an equally complex concept like racism.

I know, which is why I spent most of my time talking about things like linguistic descriptivism, which is the way which any real linguist defines words. Try responding to some of my other points.

EDIT: Also, are you disputing that that definition of evolution is correct? Of course it's not complete, because you're right, you can't put all of the nuance of a single word into a dictionary. You can, however, give a basic idea what the word means, and whether racism can really be used to mean prejudice or discrimination based on race, which is the way people are going to use it whether you like it or not.

[Steampunkette]

Oh, I totally understand that's how it's used...

But we also live in a society where literally now means both literally and figuratively.

People use the word based on the hypersimplified definition and I expound on it, explaining the more nuanced version. I'm not saying they're wrong for using the colloquial definition, just explaining the larger context.

[ruy343]

Hi, OP,

A short while ago, I played a conjurer wizard, who was able to conjure any modern conveniences that were missing in his life, and who went around with expensive perfume, spraying it on everyone who smelled less than divine. Add on top of that the "but faaaaather!" that he was always saying, and I had myself a regular prince charming!

I think that playing that same style of character, but female, would give you a lot of the fun you were looking for mechanically. In terms of character, perhaps come from a noble background, and be completely accustomed to having everything handed to her, and not understanding the troubles of the common man. Bonus points for caring way more about the environment and mystical nonsense than the needs of petty peasants.

Also, if your campaign has a place for an MLM, that would be glorious.

[Cybren]

Oh, I totally understand that's how it's used...

But we also live in a society where literally now means both literally and figuratively.

People use the word based on the hypersimplified definition and I expound on it, explaining the more nuanced version. I'm not saying they're wrong for using the colloquial definition, just explaining the larger context.

the bolded has been true since at least Chaucer

[Sigreid]

Ignoring all of the nonsense in this thread, I suggest watching the old Buffy the Vampire Slayer movie.

[Sigreid]

There's also the heretofore unaddressed...ooginess of painting another country with a monoracial brush. Even when cromulently applied, it feels kinda like "but you don't look X" from another angle. At least that's my non-white perspective on it. aaaaand it's resolved

I was just hoping someone in the thread would propose extrapolating the white girl role in horror films into a horror campaign. Still, discussions like these and playing with stereotypes can lead to memorable characters like the aforementioned Elle Woods and Buffy Summers, so I say keep the merfolk coffee coming.

There was a Beyond the Supernatural adventure like this. The idea was everyone play an exaggeration of a 13 year old girl stereo type. 1 was the "princess" she had a high charisma. Another was the "tomboy" she got a higher constitution, etc. The group was encouraged to be as silly and ridiculous as they could manage, making all the trope bad decisions before being eaten by the monster.

[Phoenix042]

@All: Do they sell coffee at taverns? I doubt it. Not sure how to get the Starbucks in there. For the Gaston character, what's the medieval equivalent of a protein shake?

Maybe, they sold coffee at *her* tavern, and that's why she loves it so much. It was a hometown thing. Some exotic merchant-turned family-man settles in their village, and keeps the local tavern supplied with his favorite imported drink at a reduced price just because he likes sharing it with others.

This girl grew up in that town, and the smell of coffee reminds her of the simple but unique streets of her home, where strange smells mixed with ordinary ones, and a simple farmer's life mixed with the occasional, exotic, newness of something like coffee.



Maybe it doesn't *quite* fit the stereotype you're going for, but then again, maybe it fits the character you'd like to play.

Just pitching ideas I guess.

[SaintRidley]

It's worth noting that this character should be named Becky. She's got that good hair.

[Mhl7]

Dude, you live in Italy. Your whole nation is the size of one of the states in the US, and is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town. You have a completely different social expectation than all the Americans discussing stereotypes.

While this comment might not be "literally" racist and while I also agree that Italy is way less ethnically diverse than the US, I say that any sentence of the type

"You come from 'insert country name here', hence you are not entitled an opinion on 'insert argument here' "

is at the very least bad mannered and one should apology.

1- 'mexicans', 'chinese' or 'africans' are not race defining features (they define countries, continents of belonging), but I bet that one can build a lot of sentences using your format and either of this word that would be labeled as racist by the majority of readers.

2- The ethnicity is not the feature defining the week category in 'white girl', it is the 'girl' part (That's what you and other have said: you cannot be racist toward withe people). However, you are basing your conclusion on ethnicity. :smallconfused:

3- I would also argue, that by your very logic (few ethnical difference), half of the population of Italy are exactly 'white girls'. Here we are comparing the right to speech based on country belonging, right? The US has 300M inhabitants, Italy has 60M. That's one fifth. We can safely assume that half of that are female, so 30M. In the US there is about 200M of white people. Let us divide that by 2, to find the females: 100M.
You are saying that Lombra having just 1/3 of the sample size that you have on the argument is not entitled an opinion?

4- Shutting down people with an opinion divergent from your own based on stuff like citizenship is as bad as it gets. If you think about it with a little bit of criticism, you should feel bad.

[Beelzebubba]

You can't be racist to white people in the US. You can be mean to them, biased against them, or other terms to describe a range of attitudes from "Petty" to "Cruel". But never Racist because of the structure of society and the inherent power disparity.


That is an interesting academic stance, but if you're a white person in an area that is controlled by black people, they have power in relation to you, in that context, and exert that power over you only by virtue of your race, then that fits the exact definition. Being attacked by a group of another race merely by virtue of your race.

However, in these arguments, someone always hand-waves that away as 'well somewhere else white people have more power so it doesn't count'. And that is a fundamentally dishonest reading of reality.

It floats in academia, in a purely abstract sense when you're talking about sociology and things on a societal scale, but literally taking away a white person's ability to use the most powerful accusation left today due to a technicality that has no bearing on their present situation...that creates a feeling of unfairness and hypocrisy that no amount of left-splaining will overcome.

Well, good luck with that. Because it isn't working the way you think it's working. It's creating more resistance to the left, more rejection of anti-racism, more resentment.

[Zalabim]

I just wanted to say that I thought this was going to be about 'valley girl' mannerisms, and I didn't know it was supposed to be a 'white' thing. I mean, like, you could just watch some, like, old Hollywood movie and try to, like, copy some of those, like, actresses? Simple really. And, uh, don't ask how many times I edited that sentence to get it into a state I liked.

It pains me to have to call movies that came out when I was growing up "old."

Minor Conjuration does sound like it'd be very handy though, as well as a spellbook with convenience rituals, and conjuration wizard who talks in an awkward way with made up words or 'buffyspeak'? Seems like a fertile ground for fun characterization. Should the character be a gnome?


Dude, you live in Italy. Your whole nation is the size of one of the states in the US, and is about as ethnically diverse as a hillbilly prom in "Don't tell your cousin" town. You have a completely different social expectation than all the Americans discussing stereotypes.

She writes with biting sarcasm while irony figuratively drips from my monitor.

I'm not sure if sarcasm is the right word, but it feels like the right word.

[Herobizkit]

It's worth noting that this character should be named Becky. She's got that good hair.Becky, the pig-tailed blonde Bard/cheerleader, from the Deep South.

Also see the Brittany Taylor (http://www.dariawiki.org/wiki/index.php?title=Brittany_Taylor) character from the 90's Daria series.

... also note that Buffy was a cheerleader...

[Tiwanoz]

I'd go with a Chain Pact Warlock, with "Daddy" being your patron. Your familiar can be the Chihuahua.

[GPS]

That is an interesting academic stance, but if you're a white person in an area that is controlled by black people, they have power in relation to you, in that context, and exert that power over you only by virtue of your race, then that fits the exact definition. Being attacked by a group of another race merely by virtue of your race.

However, in these arguments, someone always hand-waves that away as 'well somewhere else white people have more power so it doesn't count'. And that is a fundamentally dishonest reading of reality.

It floats in academia, in a purely abstract sense when you're talking about sociology and things on a societal scale, but literally taking away a white person's ability to use the most powerful accusation left today due to a technicality that has no bearing on their present situation...that creates a feeling of unfairness and hypocrisy that no amount of left-splaining will overcome.

Well, good luck with that. Because it isn't working the way you think it's working. It's creating more resistance to the left, more rejection of anti-racism, more resentment.

That "technicality" being the fact that you don't live in a society controlled by black people. Don't say I'm assuming that, I can tell by the tenor of your post and your lack of specific or personal examples. You're just a white dude who wants to accuse people of "reverse racism" because you're bitter. That's what "literally taking away a white person's ability to use the most powerful accusation left today due to a technicality..." means, doesn't it. You think a right you haven't had since your forefathers were in Europe and "white" wasn't an ethnicity is being taken from you. In Europe, differnet ethnicities have gone through hatred, deep divides, and even genocides. Down here in America, people who think "reverse racism" is a thing are angry that people judge them when they make racist jokes. They want in on that sweet sweet accusation goodness.

Oh, sorry, OT: The most interesting "basic white girl" stereotype I can think of for a character to be based off of is the protagonist of "Legally Blonde". The use of sheer determination and her knowledge of fashion and such to solve problems creates a concept I'd love to see translated to a character.

[Joe the Rat]

pumpkin spice-flavored everything.

[Logosloki]

I'd go with a Chain Pact Warlock, with "Daddy" being your patron. Your familiar can be the Chihuahua.

Prestidigitation is on the warlock list they our lovely damsel can keep her clothing supernaturally clean and herself always smelling like she hasn't spent the entire night out in the woods. Warlock is a good class if you want to play out a rebellious stereotype or dabble in occult as a background trait. Which would probably work better with pact of the tome, have find familiar to be one of the rituals. Then you either have the option of going for a grimoire style tome or something that looks like a dayplanner.

For Background, make a cheerleader based on the noble background. Athletics and Acrobatics for skills, Cheer for language (or just any language that the rest of the party can't speak if you aren't allowed to nab a custom language) and calligrapher's supplies. Noble's equipment set for equipment. Use the Knight Variant to get retainers, which opens up several options for either groupies, friends or assorted guardians being dragged along to watch out for you.

[Steampunkette]

That is an interesting academic stance, but if you're a white person in an area that is controlled by black people, they have power in relation to you, in that context, and exert that power over you only by virtue of your race, then that fits the exact definition. Being attacked by a group of another race merely by virtue of your race.

However, in these arguments, someone always hand-waves that away as 'well somewhere else white people have more power so it doesn't count'. And that is a fundamentally dishonest reading of reality.

It floats in academia, in a purely abstract sense when you're talking about sociology and things on a societal scale, but literally taking away a white person's ability to use the most powerful accusation left today due to a technicality that has no bearing on their present situation...that creates a feeling of unfairness and hypocrisy that no amount of left-splaining will overcome.

Well, good luck with that. Because it isn't working the way you think it's working. It's creating more resistance to the left, more rejection of anti-racism, more resentment.

Nah. This is a stone too far.

You're making this about political ideologies rather than an understanding of societal structures and the way biases can, and are, built into the very bones of those structures.

I'll say this much: I lived in Hinesville Georgia, where the population is 46% black, 41% white. The neighborhood I was in? We were one of two white families out of 14-15. Neither I, nor any of the other families, faced systemic discrimination or interpersonal bias on the order of Racism.

You're on your own.

[Dr.Samurai]

If someone had asked how to play "Basic black guy" "basic mexican" and went on to ask about their typical tropes, this might have been flagged more easily as being problematic.
I don't disagree that this is the case. And yet, it still doesn't prove anything. Stereotypes are stereotypes. You don't get to say that stereotypes about one group of people are ok and stereotypes about another group of people are not.

Also, it is revealing that a Mexican stereotype might be considered "racist", but dismissing an Italian for being Italian is not, when neither is a race. And racism cannot happen to white people, because of the color of their skin...

With that said, comparing it to the typical "dude bro" isn't quite as accurate as comparing it to a less privileged group.
We're coming from two different angles.

If you hold the opinion that the basic girl stereotype comes from an evil misogynist place, and any critique of a woman or women is damaging, then no, the two are not comparable.

If you think that everyone gets stereotyped and this is nothing new and not exclusive to women, then yes, the two are comparable.

White men typically hold more power in our society then women, and this is especially true in the RPG community where women are still very underrepresented. Typically punching up is less offensive then punching down. So the portraying the typical "dude bro" isn't great, but it isn't usually as offensive as punching down.
And white women typically hold more power than women of color. And heterosexual women typically hold more power than homosexual women. And white heterosexual women typically hold more power than homosexual women of color. And so on and so forth. Since this power disparity exists between these various groups, and punching up is less offensive than punching down, it is no longer offensive to poke fun at the basic white girl stereotype.

This is not sound reasoning.

Now if you personally aren't offended, congratulations. That doesn't mean that others don't have the right to not feel a little offended, and judging how others feel in response is kinda an jerk move, especially if you aren't part of that group being stereotyped.
Right, sure. Listen, I don't need to be part of a group to make a judgment on people. No one does. Not you, or me, or anyone else. What it comes down to is whether you think being part of a group justifies having bad ideas. I don't. You are correct in that I'm not a woman. But that has no bearing on whether the basic white girl stereotype is somehow more dangerous or harmful than other stereotypes. Or whether it exists because "girls can't like things without being made fun of for it". Here we have geeks and nerds, basic bros with their man caves and fantasy football, gym rats, the much maligned dudebros, etc. All being stereotyped, all being poked fun at. And then we get to the basic girl, and suddenly the intent is malicious. Suddenly the stereotype is harmful. Suddenly we have victims on our hands.

It's interesting that as, presumably, a man, you can somehow understand the woman's perspective without being a "part of that group being stereotyped" as you say. But, because my opinion is contrary I'm not only a jerk, but also not, what, allowed to form an opinion? Incapable of understanding? Walk me through this dismissal please.

"Bro" as a pejorative does not have the same material consequences as pejorative be stereotypes regarding people of color, LGBT people, etc. if you think making fun of "dudebros" is just as bad as racism, you're wrong and bad.
I don't see anyone making that claim. But since we're here, If you think the basic white girl stereotype exists to ridicule women for simply liking things you're wrong and bad.

Wow, that was surprisingly easy and required little thought on my part. I can see the appeal...

I, incidentally, don't find it funny.
Interesting. Are you male or female? What country do you live in? The answers to these questions will help me explain to you why you feel the way you do.

But don't worry, I know that some black people don't find racist attitudes problematic, some gay people don't find homophobic attitudes problematic
More relevant to what we're discussing, some black people don't find racial stereotypes to be problematic in certain contexts. Same with gay people. Same with any demographic.

There is nothing racist about what the OP is doing so I don't know why you're making this point.

...there will always be people who are of a group and don't see prejudice against said group as a big deal.
This isn't prejudice. It's a stereotype. The OP isn't hunting white women down, or preventing them from living a good life. He's poking fun at a stereotype. You are conflating things.

But that doesn't deny someone else the right to be offended, or to tell people that they are spreading ideas which are hurting people. Which, incidentally, you are.
I'm neither denying anyone a right, or spreading hurtful ideas, so I don't know what you mean to say here.

I'll spare you the political explanation of how you're doing it on such a large scale, though, because, well, y'know.
I consider this a mercy. Thank you.

That "technicality" being the fact that you don't live in a society controlled by black people. Don't say I'm assuming that, I can tell by the tenor of your post and your lack of specific or personal examples. You're just a white dude who wants to accuse people of "reverse racism" because you're bitter. That's what "literally taking away a white person's ability to use the most powerful accusation left today due to a technicality..." means, doesn't it. You think a right you haven't had since your forefathers were in Europe and "white" wasn't an ethnicity is being taken from you. In Europe, differnet ethnicities have gone through hatred, deep divides, and even genocides. Down here in America, people who think "reverse racism" is a thing are angry that people judge them when they make racist jokes. They want in on that sweet sweet accusation goodness.
Again... TRUE. TO. FORM.

The "defenders of the meek" are the first to attack and dismiss on the most shallow of criteria. Racism against whites is 100% possible, no matter where you are. This post, along with others in this thread, demonstrate that. The idea that racism hinges on power structures and institutional biases is ridiculous. That is a *type* of racism, or perhaps more accurately, a way that racism can (and does) manifest. But it doesn't change the fact that whites can be targeted simply because of the color of their skin. And you can be Poindexter the Pedant with your nasally voice and explain to a white victim how technically it isn't racism, but they won't believe you and they won't care about your redefining of the word. You hobble your own efforts peddling this nonsense. I love it, really I do. You create a villain in the white hetero man, who has control over everything and oppresses everyone. And your strategy to change his ways is to tell him he can't possibly understand your struggle, tell him his opinions are invalid and irrelevant, tell him he is oppressing others by virtue of being alive, he is the beneficiary of privilege no matter his station, and he cannot be a victim. Now do as we tell you or else you're a bad person.

Absolute nonsense. No tact. No thought.

[GPS]

Again... TRUE. TO. FORM.

The "defenders of the meek" are the first to attack and dismiss on the most shallow of criteria. Racism against whites is 100% possible, no matter where you are. This post, along with others in this thread, demonstrate that. The idea that racism hinges on power structures and institutional biases is ridiculous. That is a *type* of racism, or perhaps more accurately, a way that racism can (and does) manifest. But it doesn't change the fact that whites can be targeted simply because of the color of their skin. And you can be Poindexter the Pedant with your nasally voice and explain to a white victim how technically it isn't racism, but they won't believe you and they won't care about your redefining of the word. You hobble your own efforts peddling this nonsense. I love it, really I do. You create a villain in the white hetero man, who has control over everything and oppresses everyone. And your strategy to change his ways is to tell him he can't possibly understand your struggle, tell him his opinions are invalid and irrelevant, tell him he is oppressing others by virtue of being alive, he is the beneficiary of privilege no matter his station, and he cannot be a victim. Now do as we tell you or else you're a bad person.

Absolute nonsense. No tact. No thought.

No one's talking about your precious straight white men, dude. Chill. I'm not a white dude trying to score brownie points (your "defenders of the meek", I assume. Ironic, as you currently seem to be acting as a defacto "defender of the meek"). I'm a Hispanic black dude calling out some nonsense when I see it. I saw it there, and I'm seeing it here. Racism does rely on power structures, otherwise it's just a dude like you whining about how he's being opressed. All white dudes aren't the villans, my post specifically targeted the "reverse racism" dudes, a group which you appear to belong to. Not as villans, as idiots. As far as I can tell, neither you nor Beezelbubba are currently "white victims of racism". If you want to dispute that, feel free to pepper your next set of complaints with some examples.

No tact, no thought? Says the dude who called the people trying to explain actual sociological concepts poindexters. It's pretty apparent from your recent post you don't understand much of anything about race, let alone any sort of racial struggle.

I don't want to change that dude's ways, nor do I think he's opressing anybody. He's just being dumb, and as such I'm criticizing him. White dudes don't magically opress people by existing, but show me a mirror and I'll show you one who sure does whine a lot about being opressed.

[Jormengand]

There is nothing racist about what the OP is doing so I don't know why you're making this point.

This isn't prejudice. It's a stereotype. The OP isn't hunting white women down, or preventing them from living a good life. He's poking fun at a stereotype. You are conflating things.

I'm neither denying anyone a right, or spreading hurtful ideas, so I don't know what you mean to say here.

Stereotypes have always promoted prejudice, have always spread ideas which directly contribute to discrimination, and are always born of some kind of prejudicial attitude in the first instance. Surely you don't mean to say that indirect effects don't exist, or that we shouldn't aim to avoid causing detrimental effects so long as we only do so indirectly? This isn't anything new, and there is no real benefit to stereotyping people; further, some people will always be justifiably offended by stereotypes, so why bother?

The real answer to "How do I do this really stupid and subversive thing" can only ever be "Don't" if we're to give a rational response. If you want to do something comedic, then you could choose a better joke to make than "Hurr durr aren't white women dumb?"

[Steampunkette]

Also do things like this in character:

https://68.media.tumblr.com/5fb3e73bfab243b1a750c070ada342a3/tumblr_nvdd2nO12G1tfbtrwo1_400.gif

Possibly while repeating some of the "Reverse Racism" stuff being said in this thread!

[Sigreid]

This forum needs a tag for "I want to argue with strangers on the Internet instead of contributing to the original poster's request" so those comments can be filtered out.

[dejarnjc]

Eh I wasn't contributing so deleted. :)

I do think the concept is light hearted and sounds like it could be amusing though.

[GPS]

Same man. I feel really bad that people like me arguing about race and other stuff irrelevant to this discussion ruined the OP's thread topic. Sorry this got so political Tundra. If it's any consolation, I feel like there are a lot of good "basic white girl" character ideas throughout the thread, no thanks to us five. I'm gonna bounce before the mods arrive, hope you have better luck in the second half.

[Dr.Samurai]

No one's talking about your precious straight white men, dude.
Whites can't be the targets of racism. Male stereotypes are okay because men have privilege, female stereotypes are not okay because they have less privilege.

I didn't say that. You guys did.

Yes, I added "straight" to that. The same principle applies. Your tactics and rhetoric are counter-productive and ironic (to put it nicely).

Chill.
I am the chillest, dude.

I'm not a white dude trying to score brownie points, I'm a Hispanic black dude calling out some bull**** when I see it.
I'm also a Hispanic dude calling out bull**** when I see it. Congratulations. Our ethnicity and skin color means jack **** when it comes to our opinions. That. Is. The. Point.

Beelzebubba made a cogent point, and from his comment, you assumed his skin color, his intentions, and completely dismissed the point he was making. Even now you're saying "I'm not a white dude trying to score brownie points". Who said anyone is doing that?? I'm not dismissing white opinions, you are. That is the "racist attitude" Jormengand was referencing earlier. Not the OP. The OP is doing something light hearted, and poking fun at stereotypes, about men and women both. Something that people do EVERY DAY in their day to day lives. Something that comedians do all the time. Something that we laugh at in sitcoms. YOU, on the other hand, are reading the minds of perfect strangers over the internet, and based on their opinions, inferring their race and totally dismissing their opinions as malicious and invalid.

The former is fine. The latter is dangerous and racist.

Racism does rely on power structures, otherwise it's just a dude like you whining about how he's being oppressed.
LMFAO. I'm not white. I mean... this, in and of itself, should demonstrate to you how shallow your thinking is, how little insight you actually have into the concepts you're discussing.

Racism does not rely on power structures. Racism is quite simple. It interacts with power, like just about everything else, and it can change in that way, and take on different forms. But no one is going to take you seriously when you say that, if all things are equal between two racial groups, they cannot be racist against each other.

As for the whining, I'm just shaking my head. Some of us can poke fun at stereotypes and be light hearted and aren't easily offended. Others can't. Stop projecting.

All white dudes aren't the villans, my post specifically targeted the "reverse racism" dudes, a group which you appear to belong to.
It's not reverse racism. It's just racism. It's different in many ways between whites and blacks and other groups. But it exists among them all. This is indisputable.

As far as I can tell, neither you nor Beezelbubba are currently "white victims of racism".
As far as you can tell? What can you tell from inside your bubble? You already know a person's skin color and motivations just based on their opinion. Come join us in the real world and then maybe you can "tell" stuff.

Stereotypes have always promoted prejudice, have always spread ideas which directly contribute to discrimination, and are always born of some kind of prejudicial attitude in the first instance. Surely you don't mean to say that indirect effects don't exist, or that we shouldn't aim to avoid causing detrimental effects so long as we only do so indirectly? This isn't anything new, and there is no real benefit to stereotyping people; further, some people will always be justifiably offended by stereotypes, so why bother?
There are benefits to stereotyping, that's why we do it. People will always be offended by everything, which is why taking offense has very little value.

Prejudice and discrimination are different to stereotyping. They are not the same things. The OP will be playing a stereotype, and his friend will be playing another one. Neither one is necessarily prejudiced against the people they are stereotyping, or discriminating against them.

The real answer to "How do I do this really stupid and subversive thing" can only ever be "Don't" if we're to give a rational response. If you want to do something comedic, then you could choose a better joke to make than "Hurr durr aren't white women dumb?"
As a fan of various comedians that make off color jokes about anything and everything, I disagree.

[WickerNipple]

The whole "Basic White Girl" trope is just a permutation of literally every "Girls like this thing so let's make fun of it" situation.

Whether it's comfy and warm boots that are in fashion, a tasty seasonal beverage, or the realization that your pet is small enough to carry around with you in a manner that isn't entirely socially distasteful (As compared to dudes carrying their pet rats or snakes in backpacks or pockets)

Valley Girl accents, Basic White Girl, Wearing too much Pink, taking too many selfies, indulging in food pics, lifting the end of a statement in pitch, etc etc etc.

If a bunch of women are doing it, it gets ridiculed.

But if you want to make fun of the "Basic White Girl" stereotype, I'd honestly suggest making a character who appears for all intents and purposes to fit the stereotype, then show her depth of character and the real person underneath the ridiculed portions of her attire and style.

Avoid dumbing the character down, ultimately, is what I'm suggesting. Otherwise you're just making fun of any woman who appears to conform to the stereotype.

Thank you. You said everything I wanted to on the first page so I don't have to read the rest of this trainwreck.

[Squiddish]

-Snipped-

Racism against white people can exist, sexism against men can exist, heterophobia can exist, in theory. On small scales, we might see them. On larger scales, however, it tends towards the other direction, at least in the united states.

Like most arguments, this one has sprung from a misunderstanding. One side is arguing about theory and isolated cases, the other about overall trends.

On a different side, this argument isn't really relevant to the thread. This thread discusses a specific and often used stereotype. Is that stereotype harmful in the long run? Perhaps. But is anyone harmed by making a silly, parodic D&D character? Almost certainly not.

So please, can everyone just stop fighting, and calm down?
First time mediating an argument on these particular forums, let's hope it works.
Also, this has gotten perilously close to real-world politics, so I think it will be in everyone's best interests to stop.

[zeek0]

I'm coming in late, but I'd just like to say the I think this topic is interesting and important - and I like how the conversation also gives info to the OP about his goal.

First, I'll jump in on the racism definition debate. I think that here we have a case of meaning discrepancy. As noted, common uses of the word 'racism' apply to general discrimination, and a more modern/academic use of the term restricts it to situations where the powerful oppress the less powerful.

To spitball some definitions:
Racism (noun)
A. a situation in which a person discriminates against another on the basis of race
B. a situation in which one person discriminates against another on the basis of race, playing into larger structures of power and oppression

It's clear to me that both meanings are in use, and that people are just talking past each other. They see one meaning where another is intended. To fix this, we could taboo the word 'racism' and replace it with two nonsense words: A-dalphism, and B-gormism. Or even racism!A and racism!B. No other solution will fix this problem. This is because *words don't mean anything objectively*, and we need to fully understand each other if we actually want to find truth.

Second, I'd like to consider the roleplay of a stereotype in place of a character. The roleplay of a cultural person with ideas, values, and a rich inner life is great! White women who enjoy modern popular trends (basic is a problematic term at best) have real motivations and experiences that inform their sense of self, and to transfer this personality to a discrepant genre can be entertaining and rewarding. (see: Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

But to quote the eminent Terry Pratchett, "Sin, young man, is when you treat people as things." To reduce someone to a stereotype is not only rude, it dehumanizes them. It divorces their actions from the real beliefs and experiences that creates them. Instead of roleplaying a person, you roleplay a thing.

If you roleplay a person you get to satirize the beliefs and experiences held by that cultural group, point out inconsistencies, and generally express that type of person while still acknowledging their humanity. If you roleplay a thing then you merely express your shallow understanding of a cultural group and publically dehumanize them as entertainment.

I'm willing to converse about my comments, and even change my mind as warranted. PMs are accepted. Let me know!

@OP: I think that the examples of Buffy and Legally Blonde work well, as do the miniature dog, Ugg boots, and love for vegetable-flavored caffeinated beverages. Just be sure to also roleplay their possible motivations - such as a yearn for social approval and companionship, and their experiences - a noblewoman will probably wear less practical winter boots than her serfs.

[Herobizkit]

@OP: I think that the examples of Buffy and Legally Blonde work well, as do the miniature dog, Ugg boots, and love for vegetable-flavored caffeinated beverages. Just be sure to also roleplay their possible motivations - such as a yearn for social approval and companionship, and their experiences - a noblewoman will probably wear less practical winter boots than her serfs.@OP: If you want to get hyper-technical, you'd only need portray a fish-out-of-water trope to nail the "plain white girl" (huehue) in a Fantasy setting. For example, a sheltered princess who has seen poverty for the first time simply won't react to things the same way the poor folks might (such as Jasmine in Aladdin - she doesn't understand why people can't have free food).

[Beelzebubba]

Same man. I feel really bad that people like me arguing about race and other stuff irrelevant to this discussion ruined the OP's thread topic. Sorry this got so political Tundra. If it's any consolation, I feel like there are a lot of good "basic white girl" character ideas throughout the thread, no thanks to us five. I'm gonna bounce before the mods arrive, hope you have better luck in the second half.

That's some gall. You are one of the biggest offenders to the tone of this thread, going straight to insults and sarcasm to people that were posting in good faith, then you try to take the 'I feel bad' angle? Please.

Apologize to the people you were rude to and maybe you'll have something.