Mind Blank vs Will Save

[Gelcur]

I'm working on an epic build for a rogue. The plan is to go Void Incarnate which gets Blank Mind at level 5, an extraordinary version of Mind Blank at all times. Pretty sure dispelling and anti-magic are out for nullifying it.

At that point is there any reason to care about a Will save anymore? Is there anything important that requires a Will save that isn't covered by Mind Blank. I had Dexterous Will down as a feat but it may be redundant plus I'm looking to free up a feat slot.

Thanks in advance for lending your vast internet wisdom.:roach:

[Fouredged Sword]

Illusions and other willsave effects that do not have the mind effecting tag. They exist and will come into play in an epic game. You may be able to live without though, just get forever Truesight and maybe a second sense or two like mindsight or touchsense or blindsight.

[Gildedragon]

Illusions can be pretty nasty

[Necroticplague]

There's also spells like Teleport (Baleful), Inflict Wounds, Cure Wounds, Banishment, the various Words, Glitterdust, chill/heat metal, chaos hammer, and basically anything that attempts to trap your soul.

So yes, plenty of things still left. Note my list is incomplete, because posting from a phone can be a pain.

[Gelcur]

Great feedback. If you have any more specific spells even better.

I'm not to concerned with targeted spells since they will have to see the character to target him, which should never happen even while he is attacking. Dipping Shadowdancer for HiPS

I can't believe I forgot about Illusions, seems like some of the offensive illusions have Fort for partial, I'll still be taking Dexterous Fortitude and will have Improved Mettle of Fortitude, I had already planned on having a high Spot, maybe I can get it up high enough that I can use the Epic Spot loop hole for Illusions. True seeing or other senses might a good backup if I can't get Spot high enough.

I had been prepping to be able to undo various conditions, which covers a few of the mentioned spells. Plus Mantle of the Icy Soul and Fiery Spirit to gain Fire and Cold Immunity. Even found the cool Greater Crystal of Adaptation which if I'm reading it right should prevent being sent to Positive/Negative plane and dying that way. Figured keep a Necklace of Adaptation at hand in case of no air.

Thanks again for the help, keep the suggestions coming.

[Psyren]

You're asking for a pretty big list here (every non-mind-affecting will save in the game.) Really the takeaway for you should be that your will save still matters and you should put resources into it.

It's not just spells either, there are various supernatural monster abilities that aren't mind-affecting.

[ATHATH]

Do note that Mantle of the Icy Soul was updated in the Spell Compendium to have a duration of Hours/Level instead of Instantaneous (and was made to work differently for [Fire] creatures, to boot), but Mantle of the Fiery Spirit was not.

[Crake]

I'm not to concerned with targeted spells since they will have to see the character to target him, which should never happen even while he is attacking. Dipping Shadowdancer for HiPS

Keep in mind that the -20 penalty to hiding while attacking is significant, and on average enemies will have more HD for their CR, meaning more ranks in spot/listen than you have in hide/ms, especially at epic levels. Don't expect to go the whole game without being detected is all I'm saying.

[Calthropstu]

Forced planeshift, illusions, forced teleportation, baleful polymorph, decerberate are just a few non mind affecting will saves. There are also some poisons that require will saves iirc.

[Jack_Simth]

Note that Magic Jar gives the caster the ability to sense life forces. So that one can still get you, even though it's targeted and they can't actually see you.

However... there's a LOT of will save effects out there. The various Word spells (Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos, Holy Word), Zone of Truth, ... oh, Disjunction!

[Gelcur]

You're asking for a pretty big list here (every non-mind-affecting will save in the game.)
Sorry if it came off that way. I was just looking for the heavy hitters, the big guns if you will.


Do note that Mantle of the Icy Soul was updated in the Spell Compendium to have a duration of Hours/Level instead of Instantaneous (and was made to work differently for [Fire] creatures, to boot), but Mantle of the Fiery Spirit was not.
Oh hey I missed that revision, I'll have to get cold immunity another way then. Thanks.


Good call on Disjunction Jack, was using Spellblades to prevent Dispel and Greater Dispel but sadly Disjunction could be the nail in the coffin to my plan, not sure there's a good way of stopping this. By the way are there any other major soul stealing spells like Magic Jar?

Thanks everyone for all the input, Never played in anything above level 12 so this has been very helpful.

[Deophaun]

Good call on Disjunction Jack, was using Spellblades to prevent Dispel and Greater Dispel but sadly Disjunction could be the nail in the coffin to my plan, not sure there's a good way of stopping this.
UMDing a wand of wings of cover might protect you from disjunction.

Spellblades for dispel and greater dispel are largely a waste when a) there are lots of alternatives (like chain dispel) b) still does't protect against non-targeted dispels and c) rings of enduring arcana along with CL boosters can quickly make all dispel attempts autofail anyway. Heck, by how "targeted against the wielder" is defined in the negative, those spells might not even be valid choices.

[Crake]

The various Word spells (Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos, Holy Word)

Seen this mentioned a couple of times, but the only effect affected by the will save in those spells is whether or not you get banished if a) you're not on your home plane and b) the caster is on his home plane, so most of the time you're not getting a save against those spells.

[Eldariel]

Maw of Chaos is a big one, tons of AOE and Will-save vs. Daze. One of the better Time Stop spams too.

[Kitsuneymg]

Can't you get something like a contingent disjunction cast as a counter spell when disjunction is cast on you? Only works once per contingency, but it should shore up that weakness. Maybe use a CL 17 version of ring of counterspells and just load it full of disjunctions? Original is CL 11 and only works on up to 6th level spells, so it stands to reason a CL 17 should work on 9ths. You should be able to UMD scrolls to refill the ring if you go that route. Not sure on the rule-viability of this one though.

[Shadowquad]

By the way are there any other major soul stealing spells like Magic Jar?

Trap the Soul comes to mind, that's a big one. I don't know the optimization level at your table, but be wary of Mindsight, it negates invisibility for the purpose of spell targeting.

There's also Imprisonment and (Greater) Bestow Curse that have not been cited yet

[Crake]

Can't you get something like a contingent disjunction cast as a counter spell when disjunction is cast on you? Only works once per contingency, but it should shore up that weakness. Maybe use a CL 17 version of ring of counterspells and just load it full of disjunctions? Original is CL 11 and only works on up to 6th level spells, so it stands to reason a CL 17 should work on 9ths. You should be able to UMD scrolls to refill the ring if you go that route. Not sure on the rule-viability of this one though.

Contingencies must target you, and rings of counterspells only affect spells targeted directly at you, not AoE spells, so neither of those will help. Your best bet is to have spellcasting of your own, and when you identify someone casting disjunction, to use an immediate action celerity to either interrupt the spell, or cast a spell of your own to block line of effect. There are very few spells that can actively block a disjunction, but a few that do are: AMF (bad option for you though, because it will remove your Su HiPS), forcecage centered on yourself (the disjunction will hit it and disjoin it, but it won't go beyond the forcecage and affect you), prismatic sphere (same result as forcecage, though much more obvious), a hemisphere wall of ice will also achieve the same result. Basically anything that will completely block line of effect to you from all directions (one direction isn't good enough, because the aoe can easily be centered in a location that will still hit you).


Trap the Soul comes to mind, that's a big one. I don't know the optimization level at your table, but be wary of Mindsight, it negates invisibility for the purpose of spell targeting.

There's also Imprisonment and (Greater) Bestow Curse that have not been cited yet

Mindsight does not let you target an invisible person that you cannot see. You know which square they are in, as per blindsense, but they still have total concealment, and thus are not targetable.

[Fouredged Sword]

It grants good enough targeting to disjuncy or dispel or chaos maw.