Making a non-climbable wall between level 7 and 10?

[Coidzor]

The Climb skill says that "A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed."

I want to know what my options are for creating pit traps, making walls, or altering existing surfaces so that anyone who wants to scale them has to either out-and-out fly or they have to break out the pitons and hammers.

We've basically inherited a dungeon that's long been abandoned since the previous inhabitants were almost all slaughtered, and are working on clearing out the haunting presences that we can't get to agree to work with us. It has at least one pair of pit traps that already lead to cages in various stages of repair, and there's a few places where it would make great sense to dig a pit trap.

For some of these pit traps, I just want to keep whatever interlopers try to break into our new home from being able to climb back out again in any reasonable amount of time without expending a limited or per-day resource to fly out.

For others, I want to be able to put things in there that I won't always have control over, with a reasonable amount of certainty that they will not climb back out again and eat my minions or wreck up the place, like, say, rats that are kept half-starved so that they don't eat one another but they will try to devour anyone who falls in there or basically any kind of ooze. We ran into some Verdurous Oozes while first exploring the place, and with their ability to split, I really want to get my hands on some of those and populate an entire maze of pit traps.

So, the easy question, could Stone Shape make a stone wall become smooth and flat and impossible to climb?

If not, or for cases where I don't want to have stone walls, what sort of options am I looking at, beyond making sure that there's no way to brace against perpendicular walls and that the walls are slippery?

We're going to be a party of 4 7th level characters, an Unsworn Shaman cherrypicking as needed from the Wizard list and crafting wondrous items and weapons and maybe constructs, an Antipaladin who will shortly obviate any need we had for making an item of Desecrate for making undead, an Unchained Rogue that's got a high Craft:Alchemy and other skills for using and making and harvesting poison, and a Gunslinger5/Fighter 2(?) who also has a high Craft:Alchemy.

Additionally we already have 3 level 1 Antipaladins in our evil organization before we set about properly setting it up and we've got an alliance with a small tribe of Boggards (I'm thinking around 20 individuals right now, with more in their breeding pools, will get a more accurate count soon).

We're looking into making an alliance with some form of undead spirit that we haven't met directly yet, and there are a few corpses from death cultists of variable levels that used to live in the dungeon before it was cleared out by a bunch of knights and paladins that I've set aside to use Create Undead on to make some Skeletal Champions/Zombie Lords and I'm relaitvely confident that we'll be able to make a deal with them if not have them fully join our legion of doom.

We also believe that we'll be able to get some amount of aid from a pair of Ceustodaemons, and suspect that at least one, maybe more, of the statues we've found are actually death cultists that got turned to stone somehow that we should be able to (eventually) revert into living people.

There's also an Alchemical Golem that we're in the middle of repairing(mostly what we're missing is a brain for it),
and there's an entire Forest-Jungle-Swamp region nearby that seems to have creatures from the temperate to the tropical, maybe even some boreal.

Of the other corpses we possess, of relevance are two captains from a defensive garrison that I believe are around 5th level Fighters and a Dwarf Lord of similar level that was also an expert Architect and Mason. Sadly, I was a complete idiot and forgot to collect the entire team of expert masons, even after I'd made a note that they would be a strategic asset.

I give fair odds that I'll be able to work out a deal for cooperation from the zombie lord versions of those characters.
There's another level 5 to 7 Wizard corpse I have, but it's too damaged to use Animate Dead on, so I have to doublecheck how Create Undead will work on it.

I'm reasonably confident I'll be able to get access to Create Undead, but would, of course, prefer not to hinge all my plans on that.

[Deophaun]

Get a bunch of unseen servants, give them fine-grit adamantine files and tell them to have at it.

The problem with stone shape is that whatever you form is "crude," "fine detail is not possible." That--to me--would rule out perfectly smooth.

[weckar]

You could always slime or oil it up. A thin mechanised waterfall system along the walls will also do wonders.


Although if these interlopers have friends, ropes are a good way out.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Glass or ceramic seem like good choices for a "perfectly smooth" surface. Polished marble if you want something sturdier, or maybe ice or crystal if you want something more fantastic.

[Rizban]

I'd say the simplest means has nothing to do with the actual pit. I'd use adamantine or another reasonably tough material to craft swinging trap doors over the pit trap with a mechanical auto reset. When they slam shut again, they close over whoever has fallen in, blocking their escape even if they do climb up. Set it up with a secondary magical trap triggered by the door closing which casts arcane lock on the closed pit trap door. Certainly not foolproof, but it works.

If you want something more potent but more costly, you can use one I crafted as a player to defend my base once, but I was playing a psionic artificer...
Falling into the pit activates a teleport trap that teleports the victim into a completely sealed stone box. A constant detect teleport effect on the box was tied to a secondary teleport trap to keep them there if they tried to teleport out. I was usually kind enough to provide a bottle of air so they wouldn't suffocate, but that's entirely optional and prevents the rest of the setup below from being useful.
The dust on the floor of the box was thirsty sand (Sandstorm p135), and a small hole on the ceiling led to a decanter of endless water. If they proved too troublesome, I could command the decanter to dispense a bit of water, which turned the fine layer of dust into massive amounts of mud completely filling the entire space of the box, effectively trapping and smothering the occupant. Once dealt with, a simple command word turned the mud back into clear water with a bit of non-magical sand at the bottom, allowing for easy clean up of the container.
For something a little less lethal, a bottle of endless smoke was also attached, also used for asphyxiation, but could be cleared out quickly after the occupant lost consciousness but before death.

With a bit of finagling of the exact abilities involved, you could have several similar boxes setup in a row and have each creature falling into a pit wind up in its own individual box for convenient storage.

[Elkad]

Other things to consider. Some may not apply at your level, but progression happens.

Psi feat Up the Walls (full movement on a vertical surface, as long as you end on a horizontal one)
Skill trick Walk the Walls (1/4 speed movement on a vertical wall without a climb check)
Slippers of Spider Climbing.
People who can actually make the DC:70 climb check to climb a smooth wall (Epic Skills). Gets easier if they can enlarge themselves enough to reach that far wall to brace themselves. Or coat your slippery wall in glue or something.
Natural fliers (pixies, warlocks, etc).
Burrowing creatures, including Reserve Feat elementals (or Druid elemental companions)
Filling the pit with something (Decanter of Endless Water, etc) and just walking/swimming out.
Rope of Climbing
Raven familiars carrying a string.

Basically, a pit is a terrible standalone trap for adventurers, unless you defend it as well.

[Coidzor]

Get a bunch of unseen servants, give them fine-grit adamantine files and tell them to have at it.

The problem with stone shape is that whatever you form is "crude," "fine detail is not possible." That--to me--would rule out perfectly smooth.

Heh. Well, I believe I have the labor with or without that. Some of them may even have Climb speeds, so they'd be able to really verify if the surface was rendered unclimbable or not.


You could always slime or oil it up. A thin mechanised waterfall system along the walls will also do wonders.


Although if these interlopers have friends, ropes are a good way out.

Not so worried about that, more want to make sure that my beasties can't get out of the pit as I said. Also to make sure that whoever does fall into the pit can't just scamper out of it in the same round that they fall in. Adventurers generally don't go around dungeons with a rope ladder ready to lower down to one another in their hands.


Glass or ceramic seem like good choices for a "perfectly smooth" surface. Polished marble if you want something sturdier, or maybe ice or crystal if you want something more fantastic.

I can see how I could use WBLmancy to achieve the first three of those.

Not really seeing a way that I could arrange for smooth ice, even if I get some Brown Mold to keep it from melting or magically lower the temperature, without having to periodically send someone down to re-smooth the ice.

I really don't see any way to just make crystal at my level, though. :smallconfused: What did you have in mind as the way of getting crystal in place?


Other things to consider. Some may not apply at your level, but progression happens.

Psi feat Up the Walls (full movement on a vertical surface, as long as you end on a horizontal one)
Skill trick Walk the Walls (1/4 speed movement on a vertical wall without a climb check)
Slippers of Spider Climbing.
People who can actually make the DC:70 climb check to climb a smooth wall (Epic Skills). Gets easier if they can enlarge themselves enough to reach that far wall to brace themselves. Or coat your slippery wall in glue or something.
Natural fliers (pixies, warlocks, etc).
Burrowing creatures, including Reserve Feat elementals (or Druid elemental companions)
Filling the pit with something (Decanter of Endless Water, etc) and just walking/swimming out.
Rope of Climbing
Raven familiars carrying a string.

Basically, a pit is a terrible standalone trap for adventurers, unless you defend it as well.

Don't really have to worry about many of those, just by virtue of it being Pathfinder. I will need to keep in mind burrowing, but I'm going to address that in another way, I think. The terrain is fairly mountainous, so I believe that things that only burrow through soil are going to run into natural rock a lot anyway.

The aforementioned beasties would count as one form of defense, I should think, and I have ideas for how to use intelligent minions to lay ambushes as well, though I would prefer them to mostly work on maintenance and stocking duties.


I'd say the simplest means has nothing to do with the actual pit. I'd use adamantine or another reasonably tough material to craft swinging trap doors over the pit trap with a mechanical auto reset. When they slam shut again, they close over whoever has fallen in, blocking their escape even if they do climb up. Set it up with a secondary magical trap triggered by the door closing which casts arcane lock on the closed pit trap door. Certainly not foolproof, but it works.

If you want something more potent but more costly, you can use one I crafted as a player to defend my base once, but I was playing a psionic artificer...
Falling into the pit activates a teleport trap that teleports the victim into a completely sealed stone box. A constant detect teleport effect on the box was tied to a secondary teleport trap to keep them there if they tried to teleport out. I was usually kind enough to provide a bottle of air so they wouldn't suffocate, but that's entirely optional and prevents the rest of the setup below from being useful.
The dust on the floor of the box was thirsty sand (Sandstorm p135), and a small hole on the ceiling led to a decanter of endless water. If they proved too troublesome, I could command the decanter to dispense a bit of water, which turned the fine layer of dust into massive amounts of mud completely filling the entire space of the box, effectively trapping and smothering the occupant. Once dealt with, a simple command word turned the mud back into clear water with a bit of non-magical sand at the bottom, allowing for easy clean up of the container.
For something a little less lethal, a bottle of endless smoke was also attached, also used for asphyxiation, but could be cleared out quickly after the occupant lost consciousness but before death.

With a bit of finagling of the exact abilities involved, you could have several similar boxes setup in a row and have each creature falling into a pit wind up in its own individual box for convenient storage.

Ooo, now those are some nice ideas. Especially with the bottle of endless smoke. :smallamused: Thank you very much.

[EvulOne]

Get yourself a great rogue to set a secondary trap to drop a heavy block of stone on a chain (so it can be lifted by you) which is slightly bigger than the pit. Even if they were somehow strong enough to lift it, they can't do it while hanging on the wall.

[hamishspence]

The Climb skill says that "A perfectly smooth, flat, vertical (or inverted) surface cannot be climbed."


Epic rules modify that slightly:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#climb

If those are carried over to Pathfinder - then there's no such thing as completely unclimbable.

[Coidzor]

Epic rules modify that slightly:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#climb

If those are carried over to Pathfinder - then there's no such thing as completely unclimbable.

Good point.

I suppose I mostly want to see what I can do to limit a ~7-10 HD character with max ranks in Climb as a class skill, a +7 Strength mod, and a climb speed. So a +25-28 modifier.

I think even slicked down, the most difficult to climb but still technically climbable by the non-epic rules wall is easily climbable by such a character, which makes a certain amount of sense, they should have some superhuman climbing ability with all of those advantages.

I suppose I could try to think of what would be more towards the average or typical than a character spec'd for climbing. I suppose non-strength types will hover between a -1 and +2 Strength mod and non-dedicated climbers would invest between 1-3 points in Climb. So between a +3 and a +8 maybe?


Get yourself a great rogue to set a secondary trap to drop a heavy block of stone on a chain (so it can be lifted by you) which is slightly bigger than the pit. Even if they were somehow strong enough to lift it, they can't do it while hanging on the wall.

Well, there's a thought, just put a lid on it that I only take off for feeding time. Thank you. :smallamused:

[Fouredged Sword]

Another good note is that celings are much harder to climb then walls. Making the trap open into a space much wider than the opening will make it much harder to scale. No need to grease the walls, just fill the bottom of the pit with slime, preferably something both slippery and unplesent. Bonus points if the bottom of the pit is filled with oil. Double bonus points if the top of the pit drops in a tinderwhig before slamming the trap shut again.

You can't climb when you are on fire after all.

And you can vent the smoke back up and into the room with the trap so everyone there is not blind and liable to stumble into the trap.

[Elkad]

You can't climb when you are on fire after all.

Sure you can. Just an extra climb check every time you take damage.
It isn't even harder (probably should be, similar to a Conc check), there just isn't a "you fail to make progress" option, you always fall on failure.

[Telonius]

Here's a nice one for you: halfway up your perfectly (or even not-so-perfectly) smooth wall surface, a resetting trap of Dimension Hop. Target is teleported 5 feet backwards.