Playing Fine/Diminutive/Tiny characters?

[Xarteros]

Short of a lucky roll with a Rod of Wonder, or a few other chance-based or non-permanent solutions, what are some good, reliable ways to become Tiny-Fine that cannot be dispelled/reversed?

So far, my only idea is to take a really tiny humanoid-shaped construct and making it an Incarnate Construct so that it becomes playable (and applying a template or two to give it some actual flavour beyond just being tiny)

What are some other ideas? Barring that, what are some good humanoid-shaped (two arms, two legs, one head) constructs? All I know of that fits in the Tiny category is the Dedicated Wright.

Looking to avoid homebrew, just wondering if and how it can be done. Dragon Magazine and any of the Wizards-official books are allowed =D

Bonus points if anyone can make the Petal fey (MMIII) into a Diminutive size instead of Tiny (I want to be roughly 6-inches tall).

[Segev]

Because I think they could be fun, I wrote up a single Shimmerling as a playable race, once.

[Nettlekid]

The Jermlaine race from MMII and Muckdweller from Serpent Kingdoms are both valid Tiny races. And there's the argument that the Return to Nature spell's Instantaneous duration overrides Reduce Person's duration when applied to Giants, which would Instantaneously shrink them one size and could be done until they're Fine.

[Mehangel]

If I recall correctly, a Dragon Magazine which updated Oriental Adventures to 3.5 had a Hengyokai race that allowed transformation into a fine-sized bird, sparrow I believe.

[Bronk]

It looks like the best way to be a fine sized character is to be a hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) with the alternate form of a sparrow.

Ah, too slow!

[CharonsHelper]

In Pathfinder you can play a kitsune and spend all of your time (at least in combat) in fox form which is tiny. I played at a PFS table with someone who went that route. It was effective with the right build. (A level of Swashbuckler: Mouser, a level or two of monk, and then unchained rogue I believe)

This is the only way I know of to do it with a race which is actually supposed to be playable instead of using a crazy LA race (in 3.x) or some other weirdness.

[Zaq]

The Jermlaine race from MMII and Muckdweller from Serpent Kingdoms are both valid Tiny races. And there's the argument that the Return to Nature spell's Instantaneous duration overrides Reduce Person's duration when applied to Giants, which would Instantaneously shrink them one size and could be done until they're Fine.

Beat me to it.

That said, even though I love muckdwellers, I seriously don't recommend playing one at a level before you can afford extradimensional storage (and probably also special weight-reducing materials for your armor/weapon, if necessary). Tiny size and –6 STR means that your carrying capacity is basically nil. (Assuming you start with 10 STR, which gets reduced to 4, you've got a carrying capacity of six and a half pounds for a light load. A Bag of Holding itself weighs no less than 15 pounds, so that's no good. A Handy Haversack only weighs 5 pounds, so that leaves you with a whole pound and a half to devote to your armor and spell component pouch and other such things you actually want to have on your person instead of in your bag. A Portable Hole or Enveloping Pit are better, though both are costlier than a Haversack.)

[Rizban]

As mentioned, Hengenyokai (sparrow) is really the best option for going Fine without shenanigans. I'm playing a Sparrow Incarnate in a game right now focused on dissolving spittle as my main attack. The more "classic" version of the character is a warlock or dragonfire adept.

The other option for a naturally Fine character is Hairy Spider from Monsters of Faerun. The errata gave it LA +0, but it's a vermin with Int -. So, it's definitely ask your DM territory.

[weckar]

Petal with a permanent item of Reduce Person?

I know RedPer TECHNICALLY only works on humanoids, but I always felt that spells with that restriction should really change it when cast by members of another type... Otherwise it really makes no sense.

[Mehangel]

As mentioned, Hengenyokai (sparrow) is really the best option for going Fine without shenanigans. I'm playing a Sparrow Incarnate in a game right now focused on dissolving spittle as my main attack. The more "classic" version of the character is a warlock or dragonfire adept.

I had a party member who took the Hengenyokai (sparrow) Warlock route, he was pretty awesome, it annoyed the gm though.

[Rizban]

Petal with a permanent item of Reduce Person?

I know RedPer TECHNICALLY only works on humanoids, but I always felt that spells with that restriction should really change it when cast by members of another type... Otherwise it really makes no sense.Psionics. Compression doesn't care about creature type.


I had a party member who took the Hengenyokai (sparrow) Warlock route, he was pretty awesome, it annoyed the gm though.I'm playing a Factotum/Incarnate, so I have a fair number of skill points, all skills as class skills, and lots of ways to boost skills through soulmelds and am also a highly mobile acid-spitting turret (doubled with Share Soulmeld and a familiar). With Hidden Talent (vigor), Lifebond Vestments, and a healing belt, I also fill the role of party healer decently well. I bet I would annoy that DM quite thoroughly. :smalltongue: It's a really fun build with lots of options but really isn't all that strong other than just never missing on his ranged touch attacks and avoiding almost every attack.

[Xarteros]

Petal with a permanent item of Reduce Person?

I know RedPer TECHNICALLY only works on humanoids, but I always felt that spells with that restriction should really change it when cast by members of another type... Otherwise it really makes no sense.

I thought about that (or the equivalent version that uses a continuous Compression effect), but I don't want something that can simply be nullified.

I saw a wizards archive of the "Slight Build" trait for Kobolds (opposite of Powerful Build) which might even suit, but there's also no rules I can see whatsoever to factor the ability in as a guideline.

Some cool ideas everywhere here, but I am still hoping to be vaguely humanoid. A sparrow or spider spitting Eldritch Blasts is all well and good, but the main theme I'm working on needs the use of weapons.



If it helps to explain my goal: I'm trying to create a rules-savvy fairy of Fine/Diminutive/Tiny size (4-6 inches is the ideal height) that can be made into a race (hence the aversion to once-off luck effects or continuous magic items). It's going to be my "Syringe Fairy" race, a highly mercenary humanoid-shaped fey that fly around injecting people with various concoctions/poisons, for various employers, using a Spear Spikard from Magic of Ebberon as the basis of the Syringe.

I suppose using Tiny-Fine Incarnate constructs works well, because they aren't meant to be something completely natural (not a spirit of nature, per se). Having a little artificial origin is fitting in this instance, and would allow me to sort of figure them out as a race. Does anyone know of any other Tiny-Fine constructs I might be able to look into?

Edit: Just stumbled back into Effigy Creature and Elder Eidolon since the last time I looked at them. I suppose, if worse comes to worst, couldn't you just make an Elder Eidolon/Effigy Creature of any Fine-Tiny humanoid creature, then make it an Incarnate Construct to get it to Humanoid type?

[Bronk]

I suppose using Tiny-Fine Incarnate constructs works well, because they aren't meant to be something completely natural (not a spirit of nature, per se). Having a little artificial origin is fitting in this instance, and would allow me to sort of figure them out as a race. Does anyone know of any other Tiny-Fine constructs I might be able to look into?


Dragon 299 has a bunch of wee constructs meant to be wizard familiars.

Since your syringe weapon is custom anyway, you could also use a mouthpick weapon or a set of claw covers as the base, if you end up without humanoid form.

Or, a wee set of 'arms of the naga' or, what was it, 'hands of man'? Or a 'kolyarut hand' graft...

[Venger]

Beat me to it.

That said, even though I love muckdwellers, I seriously don't recommend playing one at a level before you can afford extradimensional storage (and probably also special weight-reducing materials for your armor/weapon, if necessary). Tiny size and –6 STR means that your carrying capacity is basically nil. (Assuming you start with 10 STR, which gets reduced to 4, you've got a carrying capacity of six and a half pounds for a light load. A Bag of Holding itself weighs no less than 15 pounds, so that's no good. A Handy Haversack only weighs 5 pounds, so that leaves you with a whole pound and a half to devote to your armor and spell component pouch and other such things you actually want to have on your person instead of in your bag. A Portable Hole or Enveloping Pit are better, though both are costlier than a Haversack.)

Muckdwellers are the best. I built one in iron chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18314170&postcount=107) a few years ago and became fine and impossible to detect.

While everything you are saying about carrying your stuff around is true, mules are 8gp.

[Segev]

I definitely recommend you look in the MM III at the Shimmerling Swarm. You might find a good basis for what you want there.

[Iku Rex]

The Return to Nature spell (Druid 7) from the Eberron Campaign Setting could arguably work.

"Giants subjected to this spell become smaller, as though affected by a reduce person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) spell ...". Duration is "Instantaneous", so the "spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast". The spell doesn't change the target's type. Which should mean that you can cast it as many times you want on a giant, until it's Diminutive or Fine.

[EndocrineBandit]

What about the Tibbit (Dragon Compendium)?

[Zaq]

Muckdwellers are the best. I built one in iron chef (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18314170&postcount=107) a few years ago and became fine and impossible to detect.

While everything you are saying about carrying your stuff around is true, mules are 8gp.

This is 100% true, but half the fun of playing a muckdweller is being a tiny and unnaturally stealthy thing that can get into lots of trouble that other characters (like mules) cannot.

Even if you aren't building a Rogue or another primary stealth-monkey, it's kind of part of the package, you know?

[Ellrin]

The Return to Nature spell (Druid 7) from the Eberron Campaign Setting could arguably work.

"Giants subjected to this spell become smaller, as though affected by a reduce person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reducePerson.htm) spell ...". Duration is "Instantaneous", so the "spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast". The spell doesn't change the target's type. Which should mean that you can cast it as many times you want on a giant, until it's Diminutive or Fine.

I remember reading a thread about doing just that and then giving him eldritch glaive a few years back. I've always sort of wanted to try that.