Items and Metamagic for Level 7 Wild Magic

[Captain Morgan]

I'm going to take a crack at Wild Magic, and want to be able to trigger as many surges as possible. Coming in at level 7, and our DM gives us 1 Rare and 1 Uncommon consumable magic item, and 1 Rare and 1 Uncommon permanent magic item. He's also doubled the spells known on the sorcerer.

Currently leaning towards a Beads of Force (or maybe Necklace of Fireballs) and Deck of Illusions for my consumables, as I think I can use those in conjunction with Quickened or Haste for extra actions. For my permanent, maybe a Wand of Web and a Wand of Fireball/Lightningbolt? Being able to spam extra spells means not only many more spell slots per day, but extra surges.

I'm trying to decide on what metamagic to take between Empowered, Twinned, Quickened, and Careful. Twinning Haste or Polymorph seems pretty awesome, but expensive. Quickened is cool but requires using a weaker spell or an item. Careful would combo nice with web but my concentration may be too valuable to devote too much towards control spells. And finally, if I'm spamming fireball with a wand, Empowered seems like it could get a lot of mileage.

I've got great stats but haven't settled on a race yet. Looking at something like this for spells:

4th—polymorph 3rd—counterspell, dispel magic, fly, haste, lightning bolt 2nd—blindness/deafness, invisibility, mirror image , misty step, scorching ray 1st—charm person, chromatic orb, mage armor , shield Cantrips—fire bolt, mage hand , minor illusion, ray of frost, shocking grasp

Any suggestions? :D

[King539]

You have 7 too many spells known. Metamagic doesn't work with magic items. Maybe a Wand of Wonder would be good?

[Captain Morgan]

Good to know on the metamagic. That certainly lessens the appeal for Empowered and Careful.

Do wands bypass the whole bonus action 2 non-cantrips thing?

As for spells known:


I'm going to take a crack at Wild Magic, and want to be able to trigger as many surges as possible. Coming in at level 7, and our DM gives us 1 Rare and 1 Uncommon consumable magic item, and 1 Rare and 1 Uncommon permanent magic item. He's also doubled the spells known on the sorcerer.

[Citan]

You have 7 too many spells known. Metamagic doesn't work with magic items. Maybe a Wand of Wonder would be good?
Situation is much more contrasted than what you imply with your formulation. ;)

To OP: for full information regarding Metamagic and spells from items, you can read this (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/50054/does-casting-a-spell-from-an-item-allow-you-to-apply-class-abilities-that-are-us).
Short version: RAW is allowed, RAI is not. So in the end it's up to your DM.

Personally, I would allow it for a Sorcerer in my game because...
1) I otherwise don't give any buff to the class except a "regain SP equal to prof mod every short rest".
2) Since as a DM I am the one who decides in the end which magic item players can get, I think forbidding the use of Metamagic would be a cowardish way to avoid the effort of thinking beforehand of the potential consequences of awarding this or that "spell from item". :)

With that said, I would perfectly understand DM that forbid the interaction because of fluff coherence. It's perfectly arguable to say that Sorcerer can modify spells because they come from his inner magic source, so it's something "intimately known to him", as natural as breathing... Whereas "external" sources such as magic items would prove too difficult/outright impossible to alter, if only just because it is a crafted item, made by someone else.

So in your game, since your DM was nice enough to double your spell known, it would be totally fair to forbid Metamagic on item spells imo. :)

[SharkForce]

the long version for items: consumables:

bag of beans would be one consumable rare item. as a wild magic sorcerer, how can you say no to that???

i personally like the gem of brightness as an item. i suppose it's a bit less exciting because you have blindness/deafness though...

keoghtom's ointment is a nice emergency heal that fixes a variety of problems.


rare permanent:

depending on race, a belt of dwarvenkind can also be quite good... darkvision, +2 con, resistance to poison and advantage on saves vs poison, and advantage on persuasion checks vs dwarves on a cha-based class... good times :)

you seem to be somewhat focused on defense... bracers of defense or a cloak of displacement might not be a bad thing to add on.

a cube of force gives you a nice assortment of cool tricks you can play with.

the gem of seeing gives you truesight for 10 minutes per charge. truesight lets you see through illusions and darkness spells that you cast on an area... arguably better than blindness, because nobody gets a save against darkness, and illusions often don't allow saves at all if you can keep people from touching them :)

an ioun stone of reserve will allow you to store spells (your own or other people's) for you (or other people) to cast later, as needed. if you have other spellcasters in the group, this can allow you to apply metamagic to the spells because apart from the specified qualities that are taken from the original caster, the spell counts as if you cast it, and of course it can effectively expand your spell list. it can give you an emergency heal to get the healer back on their feet. it can let you borrow spells like entangle. you can recharge it quickly and easily, and it doesn't have a daily recharge limit, just how much it can hold at one time.

a ring of spell storing works like the ioun stone of reserve except more levels can be stored... except that it's harder to loan to someone. still, quite useful imo.

a ring of evasion is pretty useful as well.

a ring of free action can be *extremely* helpful.

a staff of charming gives you some interesting spells, based on your own spell DC.

a wand of binding will give you some unusually high DC effects for your current level.

a wand of paralysis gives you something like the wand of binding... lower DC, much more efficient, especially against monsters, and no concentration though.

i can't help noticing the wand of wonder is also an option for you, mr wild mage :)


uncommon permanent:

i think a bag of tricks is a pretty nice uncommon item. sorcerers have almost no summoning, so getting some (and non-concentration to boot) can be pretty nice.

the traditionally recommended uncommon item is, of course, the broom of flying.

a hat of disguise can be a fun option :)

pipes of haunting are pretty nice if you have proficiency in wind instruments.


the short version: i vote gem of brightness for your uncommon consumable, bag of beans for your rare consumable, ring of spell storing for your rare permanent, and probably broom of flying is the strongest option for your uncommon permanent, but a bag of tricks makes a nice secondary option.

on spells: i really don't like charm person. it's just so hard to make it work. if you do take it, i must strongly recomend subtle spell. also, in general i feel like you've got a bit too much emphasis on single-target damage spells. scorching ray, chromatic orb, fire bolt, ray of frost *and* shocking grasp? anyways, scorching ray just isn't very good. chromatic orb shouldn't be necessary... the damage isn't that high, and you have fire, cold, and lightning damage cantrips for when you want consistent low-damage spells to use when you have nothing better to do. one of those damage types will probably work against any given enemy. for level 2, i feel like blindness/deafness you won't have the DC to make it last long anyways. for level 3 counterspell is great, but you shouldn't need dispel magic too often. i feel like you have better uses for the spell known... by the time the spell has taken effect, it's time for you to stop worrying about it imo. good for a cleric though. for level 4, polymorph is amazing and kinda broken for now. later on, replace it with greater invisibility most likely.

so, that frees up 5 spells if you remove all the ones i suggested (though if you just like those spells, ignore me... you've got some breathing room to take spells just because you like them).

my recommendations for you to consider:

feather fall (you've got room, and when you need it you really need it. can be ignored if someone else in your group has it).
fog cloud (it is a reliable method of blocking vision, which can save your life. remember, a lot of enemy spells will work on targets they can see... so if they can't see your party, they can't use them. likewise, opportunity attacks are against targets you can see. this spell can let you run away, it can let you dodge in and out of sight, it can allow rogues to hide, it can keep archers from being a threat, it can force squishy long-range enemies to move closer to contribute, it can block gaze attacks, it evens the odds against enemies with darkvision, devil sight, or truevision, it just does a lot of things).
shatter (i'm only putting this in because your build looks like you really value damage. shatter has a decent area, and a damage type that isn't often resisted. don't take it if you take fireball most likely).
suggestion (mainly if you have subtle spell. unlike charm person, this actually lets you make someone do something specific. it's much more useful in a fight, and probably skips the middle stage if you're not in a fight; charm person makes someone more susceptible to you getting them to do what you want. suggestion just gets them to do what you want. also, suggestion doesn't automatically let them know in one hour that you mind controlled them).
web (why yes, your concentration *is* worth a careful web. careful webs, stinking clouds, etc are one of your strongest options available for concentration, though at your current level twinned polymorph is so broken OP it wins out as long as you have the level 4 spell slots).
fireball (it really is that good. so much better than lightning bolt, unfortunately. resistance is only common among certain enemies, by the way... if you're fighting tons of devils or some iconic fire-based enemy (red dragon, fire elemental cult, etc), it will be a factor. if not, i wouldn't worry *too* much about it).
hypnotic pattern (used properly, this lets you fight your enemies in multiple small battles, or possibly just gives your entire party an extra round of actions while your enemies do nothing but wake each other up. either of those options are great, and the second one only costs concentration for one round...)
stinking cloud (but probably not just yet... you have a lot of stuff to do with your level 3 slots already. still, careful stinking cloud gives you another save you can target with crowd control, which is nice).
banishment (many creatures have bad charisma saves. banishment lets you give them a time out while you deal with their friends)

yes, there are more than 5 there. i don't know what you like, so i'm giving you a bit of variety to choose from. remember, just because your concentration can only be used on one thing at a time, doesn't mean you don't want options for what you concentrate on. make sure each option is worth concentrating on, but don't worry too much if you're not going to use something in every single fight. a spell like web is nice because it doesn't cost a lot of resources; twin polymorph is crazy strong for sure, but you don't have unlimited level 4 spell slots. careful web is something you can do fight after fight after fight.

on to metamagic:

empower: if you want to be a blaster, take it. if that isn't your primary focus, ditch it.
careful: if you want to be crowd control, careful gives you something extremely powerful. a careful web sets up a zone where you can fight, and your enemy can't go without taking some very severe disadvantages. best of all, you can use it over and over, because it doesn't cost a huge amount.
quicken: i'm not a huge fan. everyone loves it for more burst, though. if you want better novas, you should probably take quicken. otherwise, i say leave it for later... eventually you'll get access to spells that give you a use for your regular action that isn't *technically* casting a spell (like firing off a sunbeam or using telekinesis). when you have those options, consider quicken. but i wouldn't grab quicken just to spam another cantrip every round, personally.
twin: as you noticed, it's quite expensive for higher level spells. personally, i'm not a huge fan of twin haste... haste is a great buff, but i'm not convinced it's a greater buff than careful web or even non-careful hypnotic pattern, either of which costs less. it's something you use because you think your other spells won't work, to me at least. nice to have as a backup plan. not something i would make your main plan. twin polymorph at your level is going to be insanely powerful. twin greater invisibility will be amazing later on. twin cantrips can sometimes be useful, and are at least not going to cost all your sorcerer points. it can potentially have some value with the ring of spell storing i recommended for you as well :P

i would also suggest considering another option... subtle. maybe not as one of your first two, but subtle spell lets you actually use your magic in social encounters. as a sorcerer, if you can't use magic in any given situation, you're probably completely terrible.

personally, my picks would be careful and twin, but i like control spellcasters. if you like nukes, you should go quicken and either empower or twin, to improve your nova.

[Captain Morgan]

the long version for items: consumables:

bag of beans would be one consumable rare item. as a wild magic sorcerer, how can you say no to that???

i personally like the gem of brightness as an item. i suppose it's a bit less exciting because you have blindness/deafness though...

keoghtom's ointment is a nice emergency heal that fixes a variety of problems.


rare permanent:

depending on race, a belt of dwarvenkind can also be quite good... darkvision, +2 con, resistance to poison and advantage on saves vs poison, and advantage on persuasion checks vs dwarves on a cha-based class... good times :)

you seem to be somewhat focused on defense... bracers of defense or a cloak of displacement might not be a bad thing to add on.

a cube of force gives you a nice assortment of cool tricks you can play with.

the gem of seeing gives you truesight for 10 minutes per charge. truesight lets you see through illusions and darkness spells that you cast on an area... arguably better than blindness, because nobody gets a save against darkness, and illusions often don't allow saves at all if you can keep people from touching them :)

an ioun stone of reserve will allow you to store spells (your own or other people's) for you (or other people) to cast later, as needed. if you have other spellcasters in the group, this can allow you to apply metamagic to the spells because apart from the specified qualities that are taken from the original caster, the spell counts as if you cast it, and of course it can effectively expand your spell list. it can give you an emergency heal to get the healer back on their feet. it can let you borrow spells like entangle. you can recharge it quickly and easily, and it doesn't have a daily recharge limit, just how much it can hold at one time.

a ring of spell storing works like the ioun stone of reserve except more levels can be stored... except that it's harder to loan to someone. still, quite useful imo.

a ring of evasion is pretty useful as well.

a ring of free action can be *extremely* helpful.

a staff of charming gives you some interesting spells, based on your own spell DC.

a wand of binding will give you some unusually high DC effects for your current level.

a wand of paralysis gives you something like the wand of binding... lower DC, much more efficient, especially against monsters, and no concentration though.

i can't help noticing the wand of wonder is also an option for you, mr wild mage :)


uncommon permanent:

i think a bag of tricks is a pretty nice uncommon item. sorcerers have almost no summoning, so getting some (and non-concentration to boot) can be pretty nice.

the traditionally recommended uncommon item is, of course, the broom of flying.

a hat of disguise can be a fun option :)

pipes of haunting are pretty nice if you have proficiency in wind instruments.


the short version: i vote gem of brightness for your uncommon consumable, bag of beans for your rare consumable, ring of spell storing for your rare permanent, and probably broom of flying is the strongest option for your uncommon permanent, but a bag of tricks makes a nice secondary option.

on spells: i really don't like charm person. it's just so hard to make it work. if you do take it, i must strongly recomend subtle spell. also, in general i feel like you've got a bit too much emphasis on single-target damage spells. scorching ray, chromatic orb, fire bolt, ray of frost *and* shocking grasp? anyways, scorching ray just isn't very good. chromatic orb shouldn't be necessary... the damage isn't that high, and you have fire, cold, and lightning damage cantrips for when you want consistent low-damage spells to use when you have nothing better to do. one of those damage types will probably work against any given enemy. for level 2, i feel like blindness/deafness you won't have the DC to make it last long anyways. for level 3 counterspell is great, but you shouldn't need dispel magic too often. i feel like you have better uses for the spell known... by the time the spell has taken effect, it's time for you to stop worrying about it imo. good for a cleric though. for level 4, polymorph is amazing and kinda broken for now. later on, replace it with greater invisibility most likely.

so, that frees up 5 spells if you remove all the ones i suggested (though if you just like those spells, ignore me... you've got some breathing room to take spells just because you like them).

my recommendations for you to consider:

feather fall (you've got room, and when you need it you really need it. can be ignored if someone else in your group has it).
fog cloud (it is a reliable method of blocking vision, which can save your life. remember, a lot of enemy spells will work on targets they can see... so if they can't see your party, they can't use them. likewise, opportunity attacks are against targets you can see. this spell can let you run away, it can let you dodge in and out of sight, it can allow rogues to hide, it can keep archers from being a threat, it can force squishy long-range enemies to move closer to contribute, it can block gaze attacks, it evens the odds against enemies with darkvision, devil sight, or truevision, it just does a lot of things).
shatter (i'm only putting this in because your build looks like you really value damage. shatter has a decent area, and a damage type that isn't often resisted. don't take it if you take fireball most likely).
suggestion (mainly if you have subtle spell. unlike charm person, this actually lets you make someone do something specific. it's much more useful in a fight, and probably skips the middle stage if you're not in a fight; charm person makes someone more susceptible to you getting them to do what you want. suggestion just gets them to do what you want. also, suggestion doesn't automatically let them know in one hour that you mind controlled them).
web (why yes, your concentration *is* worth a careful web. careful webs, stinking clouds, etc are one of your strongest options available for concentration, though at your current level twinned polymorph is so broken OP it wins out as long as you have the level 4 spell slots).
fireball (it really is that good. so much better than lightning bolt, unfortunately. resistance is only common among certain enemies, by the way... if you're fighting tons of devils or some iconic fire-based enemy (red dragon, fire elemental cult, etc), it will be a factor. if not, i wouldn't worry *too* much about it).
hypnotic pattern (used properly, this lets you fight your enemies in multiple small battles, or possibly just gives your entire party an extra round of actions while your enemies do nothing but wake each other up. either of those options are great, and the second one only costs concentration for one round...)
stinking cloud (but probably not just yet... you have a lot of stuff to do with your level 3 slots already. still, careful stinking cloud gives you another save you can target with crowd control, which is nice).
banishment (many creatures have bad charisma saves. banishment lets you give them a time out while you deal with their friends)

yes, there are more than 5 there. i don't know what you like, so i'm giving you a bit of variety to choose from. remember, just because your concentration can only be used on one thing at a time, doesn't mean you don't want options for what you concentrate on. make sure each option is worth concentrating on, but don't worry too much if you're not going to use something in every single fight. a spell like web is nice because it doesn't cost a lot of resources; twin polymorph is crazy strong for sure, but you don't have unlimited level 4 spell slots. careful web is something you can do fight after fight after fight.

on to metamagic:

empower: if you want to be a blaster, take it. if that isn't your primary focus, ditch it.
careful: if you want to be crowd control, careful gives you something extremely powerful. a careful web sets up a zone where you can fight, and your enemy can't go without taking some very severe disadvantages. best of all, you can use it over and over, because it doesn't cost a huge amount.
quicken: i'm not a huge fan. everyone loves it for more burst, though. if you want better novas, you should probably take quicken. otherwise, i say leave it for later... eventually you'll get access to spells that give you a use for your regular action that isn't *technically* casting a spell (like firing off a sunbeam or using telekinesis). when you have those options, consider quicken. but i wouldn't grab quicken just to spam another cantrip every round, personally.
twin: as you noticed, it's quite expensive for higher level spells. personally, i'm not a huge fan of twin haste... haste is a great buff, but i'm not convinced it's a greater buff than careful web or even non-careful hypnotic pattern, either of which costs less. it's something you use because you think your other spells won't work, to me at least. nice to have as a backup plan. not something i would make your main plan. twin polymorph at your level is going to be insanely powerful. twin greater invisibility will be amazing later on. twin cantrips can sometimes be useful, and are at least not going to cost all your sorcerer points. it can potentially have some value with the ring of spell storing i recommended for you as well :P

i would also suggest considering another option... subtle. maybe not as one of your first two, but subtle spell lets you actually use your magic in social encounters. as a sorcerer, if you can't use magic in any given situation, you're probably completely terrible.

personally, my picks would be careful and twin, but i like control spellcasters. if you like nukes, you should go quicken and either empower or twin, to improve your nova.

Lots of good thoughts here.

On items: I'd like to be able to rely on my items a bit, since my magic will already be volatile. Also, I'm not focusing them on defense because there's a cool reival mechanism in play that triggers random mutations, so death is kinda fun. I just didn't see much better use for 1st level slots. Gem of Brightness looks amazing, I think I'll take that. Also I'm feeling that ring of spell storing.

My DM has ruled that I can use a wand or other item in conjunction with Quickened Spell, so it's a little more useful than just a cantrip. I'm kind of thinking a Wand of Web would be useful so I am less constrained by slots.

I also found out the party will include a bard, plus a Cleric and Barbarian, so I think blasting might step on less toes than control here. So Careful is less great. While I dig Subtle Spell, my last Warlock was really sneaky and I'm kind of looking forward to being less subtle.

[SharkForce]

i'm not sure i'd consider having more than one controller to be stepping on toes. until you get to very high levels, anything approaching 100% success rate is quite improbable. also, from what i've seen most clerics only control to the extent that they provide difficult terrain (which isn't a bad form of control by any means, but it isn't really comparable with, say, hypnotic pattern, or web, which tend to deny actions or at least make those actions incredibly ineffective).

but hey, if blaster is what you want, go that route. might i suggest you have a look at the elemental evil supplement in that case... there are some interesting blasting spells there that you may wish to consider (i hear great things about ice knife, for example, and it sounds like you're looking for ways to profitably spend your level 1 spells). also, it is free :P