Blood War vs Wh40k warp?

[gooddragon1]

Who would win if the 3.5 blood war somehow spilled into the 40k warp?

Got this idea from a thread about fixing the blood war.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The warp would win.

[Inevitability]

The devils scream. The tanar'ri scream. The obyriths cry out in joy and kill everyone else.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The devils scream. The tanar'ri scream. The obyriths cry out in joy and kill everyone else.

And then the warp twists them all, thus winning.

Warp still wins.

[Inevitability]

And then the warp twists them all, thus winning.

Warp still wins.

Obyriths are the closest thing to warp entities D&D has. I'm not sure there's anything left to twist.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Obyriths are the closest thing to warp entities D&D has. I'm not sure there's anything left to twist.

The warp would twist a paper napkin, if it were possible, and I'm not sure that it isn't.

[Grim Portent]

Assuming the D&D fiends can survive the mutating touch of the Warp, I'm going to say the fiends win, if the Warp can drive even them mad and make their psyche dissolve then the Warp wins. With a few caveats to the former though.

40K Daemons have an actual limited number, there's only so many at any given time. Granted that number is huge when you work it out based on the stated size of Khorne's armies, but the Abyss is literally infinite, so the D&D fiends have a numbers advantage if they can get the Demons to actually fully contribute to the battle. Quality is more iffy, I think Greater Daemons in 40k might be more common than Pit Fiends or Balors, as well as more destructive, and there are many beings who span between them and lesser daemons.

Of course, the lesser unaligned warp spirits and the Iron Forge might join in such a war, in which case the infinite numbers of petty fiends from the Abyss probably don't make any difference.

Also, are fiends immortal in this scenario, or do they die true death in this war? If the former they can hold their own, if the latter they would actually get stomped in short order since 40k Daemons are immortal and rapidly regenerate in the Warp.

[Professor Chimp]

The thing about the 40k Warp and its daemons is that they are entities that feed on the raw emotions experienced by all creatures with souls (which Outsiders have, although body and soul are the same). Rage, suffering, pleasure, ambition. The Warp is empowered by these.

The Fiends mere warring against the Warp would strenghten Khorne. The suffering from the death and disease this war spreads would grow Nurgles power. Their hedonistic excesses empower Slaanesh. Anytime they scheme or plan would play into Tzeentch.

Even if the Fiends could somehow stave off the corruption of the Warp, so long as they themselves continue to exist and be their fiendish selves, there would be a Warp to fight. The more successful they become, the stronger the Warp gets. It would be an endless conflict.

[Florian]

The Warp would win by default.

Think about it: The Warp is powered by negative emotions and the lower planes can only produce negative emotions.

[gooddragon1]

Also, are fiends immortal in this scenario, or do they die true death in this war? If the former they can hold their own, if the latter they would actually get stomped in short order since 40k Daemons are immortal and rapidly regenerate in the Warp.

I'm not even sure how that works. I don't know much about lower plane cosmology.

[Florian]

I'm not even sure how that works. I don't know much about lower plane cosmology.

Dying on your home plane means permanent death, dying on another plane means respawn on your home plane. So, the question here is, where does that conflict take place?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Haven't the faintest clue about WH40k, but do keep in mind that there are literally infinite fiends, and thus presumably infinite pit fiends and balors. Fiends have access to stuff like greater teleport and plane shift, and are, in the case of devils, highly organized and capable of deep tactics.

Mathematically, I'd say that the fiends can't lose. That doesn't mean they're going to win, but there's always going to be another infinite number of fiends left to fight.

[Florian]

Haven't the faintest clue about WH40k

Ok, the regular Outer Planes are build around where a soul ends up after death.
The Warp is build around each and every negative emotion a person has on the Prime Material, as well as on the Outer Planes.

[Eldan]

The thing is, the OUter Planes by Planescape, at least, basically are the warp. Or rather, a series of warp realms that look deceptively stable. Yes, many of the fiends arise from the souls of mortals. But many more are born from pure outer planar energy. And what is that outer planar energy? Mortal belief.

The Astral Plane, described in those books which actually go into it, is a mixture of outer space imagined by Lovecraft and the Warp. It's a realm of pure mental energy, where dreams and thoughts become real and physical. It is inhabited by frightening, unimaginably vast beings of physical thought.

Going by the most likely theory, the outer planes have crystallized out of the Astral. They are collections of similar thoughts and beliefs, made physical by the power of the Astral. But they all can and do change at a moment's notice.

And like the warp, they take power from many, many worlds of mortals and their emotions, thoughts and belief.

So, what you're asking is, who wins in a fight between the warp and the warp.

[gooddragon1]

Dying on your home plane means permanent death, dying on another plane means respawn on your home plane. So, the question here is, where does that conflict take place?

It's the blood war spilling out onto the warp. So, somehow one of the planes that the blood war is being fought on has an "eye of terror" open up and 3.5 demons start fighting in the warp.

[Crake]

The thing is, the OUter Planes by Planescape, at least, basically are the warp. Or rather, a series of warp realms that look deceptively stable. Yes, many of the fiends arise from the souls of mortals. But many more are born from pure outer planar energy. And what is that outer planar energy? Mortal belief.

The Astral Plane, described in those books which actually go into it, is a mixture of outer space imagined by Lovecraft and the Warp. It's a realm of pure mental energy, where dreams and thoughts become real and physical. It is inhabited by frightening, unimaginably vast beings of physical thought.

Going by the most likely theory, the outer planes have crystallized out of the Astral. They are collections of similar thoughts and beliefs, made physical by the power of the Astral. But they all can and do change at a moment's notice.

And like the warp, they take power from many, many worlds of mortals and their emotions, thoughts and belief.

So, what you're asking is, who wins in a fight between the warp and the warp.

This is what I was pretty much going to say on the matter. To be more specific I would say the abyss and the warp are practically the same. Demons from the abyss and demons from the warp I feel would match toe for toe. While warp demons might be limited in number, they regenerate fast enough to keep up, and while abyss demons can die while in the abyss, they are literally infinite, so for every one you kill, another will take it's place. If we bring devils into it, then they will do what they do best, and manipulate both sides into focusing on each other while striking out key victories where they can against the two.

Those who claim that the warp would twist the fiends, I say the abyss would twist them back just as fast. Both the warp and the abyss respond and react heavily to the negative events, so both would gain equal benefit from the confict itself, though one might be able to argue that the abyss is ever evolving. The tanar'ri are a prime example of this, the abyss twisting and warping it's progeny to match the mortals of the material, while the warp seems decidedly more stable in that regard, and is more of a reflection of the material rather than a reaction. If for that reason only I would give the advantage to the abyss, but it would only be slight, and I would still expect a stalemate, just slightly in the abyss' favour.

[Coidzor]

The Warp is build around each and every negative emotion a person has on the Prime Material, as well as on the Outer Planes.

No it isn't.

It's built around the emotions a person has in the Warhammer 40K universe and then gets really weird when you look at Warhammer Fantasy and Bloodbowl.

These are two entirely separate multiverse configurations.


It's the blood war spilling out onto the warp. So, somehow one of the planes that the blood war is being fought on has an "eye of terror" open up and 3.5 demons start fighting in the warp.

In that case, it's an inconsequential blip and some bean-counters in Hell have to declare some of their legions MIA and the demons that go around recruiting demons to throw into the Blood War may or may not even notice the Abyss telling them to suddenly get a whole bunch more demons to add into the fray to make up for the sudden loss of however many were lost.

The Eye of Terror is big compared to the Galaxy that it's in. Which is a finite space. It's still an insignificant blip in the material universe that it is a part of.

Depending upon where it opens up, it may be ages before anyone even stumbles upon it or it may become a known environmental hazard to be avoided and Khornate warp entities may spill out every now and then and either leave because they're bored or fight people and get taken out because there's several more orders of magnitude of the kind of things that can hurt warp-creatures in D&D than in the 40K setting.

Any of the planes that it could open up in would be Infinite. Except for maybe Avernus, the first layer of Hell.


The warp would twist a paper napkin, if it were possible, and I'm not sure that it isn't.

That doesn't even make sense. Of course paper napkins can be twisted. :smallconfused:

At any rate, strong-willed individuals are resistant or even immune to the general attempts of the warp to induce corruption. Primordial beings with iron-clad wills and minds that even greater daemons of Tzeentch would get lost in are not going to act like a bunch of freshly-rolled Dark Heresy characters.

[Andezzar]

That doesn't even make sense. Of course paper napkins can be twisted. :smallconfused:That was a play on words. The warp isn't interested in literally twisting a paper napkin but corrupting it (which is also called twisting). And from what the books say the warp should be able to do this. The warp is even capable of corrupting blue prints and other media.

[Tohsaka Rin]

At any rate, strong-willed individuals are resistant or even immune to the general attempts of the warp to induce corruption. Primordial beings with iron-clad wills and minds that even greater daemons of Tzeentch would get lost in are not going to act like a bunch of freshly-rolled Dark Heresy characters.

Until you remember that the machinations of the warp led to the downfall of even the mighty primarchs. (Well, some of them) An eye of terror opening in the abyss means that any greedy (or even heroic) adventurers are now vulnerable to being twisted (not like a napkin, but like corruption, in case you're not a fan of simile), leading to them causing chaos, not only in the abyss, but going home, and causing even more problems. Potentially, up to leading an adventurers guild, or a kingdom's army back, leading to fuel for both ranks (the bloodwar and the warp), which in the end favors the warp more than anything.

The warp led to even the mighty God-Emperor of Mankind being broken (physically, at least), a being that the warp-gods didn't exactly relish facing off against. I've gotta give the edge to the warp. You don't hear often about Kord or Heironeous getting thrashed to near-death by their kids empowered by the Abyss.

[Coidzor]

Until you remember that the machinations of the warp led to the downfall of even the mighty primarchs. (Well, some of them)

The Primarchs are very much a mixed-bag and even the best of them when it comes to willpower is still comparable to very strong-willed humans. They certainly don't hold a candle to many Demon Lords and Demon Princes when it comes to strength of will.


An eye of terror opening in the abyss means that any greedy (or even heroic) adventurers are now vulnerable to being twisted (not like a napkin, but like corruption, in case you're not a fan of simile), leading to them causing chaos, not only in the abyss, but going home, and causing even more problems.

An eye of terror opening up in the abyss isn't going to do jack **** to adventurers on any given material plane.

It's not even going to do diddly squat to any adventurers on the same layer of the abyss as the anomaly opens up inside of if they aren't nearby.

When each individual layer of the Abyss is infinite.

So unless this Eye of Terror just happens to open up in a notable location on a notable layer of the Abyss, it's meaningless.

Even then, unless the local Demon Lord happens to be ganked, they can just pick up stakes and move elsewhere.


Potentially, up to leading an adventurers guild, or a kingdom's army back, leading to fuel for both ranks (the bloodwar and the warp), which in the end favors the warp more than anything.

That would be utterly inconsequential, so I'm deeply confused as to why you're even mentioning it. :smallconfused:


The warp led to even the mighty God-Emperor of Mankind being broken (physically, at least), a being that the warp-gods didn't exactly relish facing off against. I've gotta give the edge to the warp.

That's not a quality of the warp corrupting or damaging the will of the Emperor, that's buffing up an already buffed up dude so he can hurt another dude.

No one's arguing that the Warp can't buff up dudes to be stronger than they were, the argument is that the warp does not automatically corrupt and take over everyone who encounters it.

Like, say, The God Emperor of Mankind being just fine and dandy when it comes to things like warp corruption by virtue of being powerful and of strong will.


You don't hear often about Kord or Heironeous getting thrashed to near-death by their kids empowered by the Abyss.

Because the Abyss doesn't do **** like that, not because the Abyss is somehow metaphysically weaker than another metaphysical realm where there are no metrics to meaningfully compare them. :smallconfused:


That was a play on words. The warp isn't interested in literally twisting a paper napkin but corrupting it (which is also called twisting). And from what the books say the warp should be able to do this. The warp is even capable of corrupting blue prints and other media.

Not a very good one, then.

Of course warp taint can affect inanimate objects. That's basic warp taint 101 material.

The phrasing would imply that the speaker didn't know if it was possible or not, making it more bizarre.

[Eldan]

Until you remember that the machinations of the warp led to the downfall of even the mighty primarchs. (Well, some of them) An eye of terror opening in the abyss means that any greedy (or even heroic) adventurers are now vulnerable to being twisted (not like a napkin, but like corruption, in case you're not a fan of simile), leading to them causing chaos, not only in the abyss, but going home, and causing even more problems. Potentially, up to leading an adventurers guild, or a kingdom's army back, leading to fuel for both ranks (the bloodwar and the warp), which in the end favors the warp more than anything.

Again, this already happens. The planes already warp people who spend too much time on them. That's how you get Tieflings.

[Crake]

An eye of terror opening up in the abyss isn't going to do jack **** to adventurers on any given material plane.

To be fair, the premise was the eye of terror opening up in the blood war, so the more likely location would be literally in the middle of a blood war battle ground on the grey wastes.


Until you remember that the machinations of the warp led to the downfall of even the mighty primarchs. (Well, some of them) An eye of terror opening in the abyss means that any greedy (or even heroic) adventurers are now vulnerable to being twisted (not like a napkin, but like corruption, in case you're not a fan of simile), leading to them causing chaos, not only in the abyss, but going home, and causing even more problems. Potentially, up to leading an adventurers guild, or a kingdom's army back, leading to fuel for both ranks (the bloodwar and the warp), which in the end favors the warp more than anything.

The warp led to even the mighty God-Emperor of Mankind being broken (physically, at least), a being that the warp-gods didn't exactly relish facing off against. I've gotta give the edge to the warp. You don't hear often about Kord or Heironeous getting thrashed to near-death by their kids empowered by the Abyss.

Lets be honest, anyone influential enough to achieve that level of shenannigans is likely mentally protected by mind black or some other derivative, because abyss demons literally try to bring ruin to mortals in just the same way.

[khadgar567]

I dont know what side wins in this pee ing contest but as an evolutanery sorcerer we get the best of best toys in the long run like new monsters to summon and exculusively unique relics to do our jobs

[Florian]

No it isn't.

It's built around the emotions a person has in the Warhammer 40K universe and then gets really weird when you look at Warhammer Fantasy and Bloodbowl.

These are two entirely separate multiverse configurations.

Not really.

[GrayDeath]

Since the 40k Warp is (simply put, I know there exist nonChaos Beings in it) pure Chaos heavily tainted by (and tainting others) Evil while the Abyss is Chaotic Evil Incarnate, I`d say nobody.

They would each feed each others Evil and become worse, and more powerful, doing so.

So while nobody WINS, everybody but The Warp and The Abyss loses.

[khadgar567]

Since the 40k Warp is (simply put, I know there exist nonChaos Beings in it) pure Chaos heavily tainted by (and tainting others) Evil while the Abyss is Chaotic Evil Incarnate, I`d say nobody.

They would each feed each others Evil and become worse, and more powerful, doing so.

So while nobody WINS, everybody but The Warp and The Abyss loses.
except heaven cuz both sides eventualy trounce the heavens collective arse and gg the setting

[Florian]

Since the 40k Warp is (simply put, I know there exist nonChaos Beings in it) pure Chaos heavily tainted by (and tainting others) Evil while the Abyss is Chaotic Evil Incarnate, I`d say nobody.

They would each feed each others Evil and become worse, and more powerful, doing so.

So while nobody WINS, everybody but The Warp and The Abyss loses.

I find your unspoken assumptions interesting. Why do you automatically integrate the Warp into the Outer Planes instead of seeing it as an alternative set of Outer Planes?

Think about the main difference: The Warp is powered by living souls, the regular outer planes are powered by dead souls.

[ExLibrisMortis]

[...] the regular outer planes are powered by dead souls.
That's not all that accurate. The Outer Planes are definitely also powered by living souls. The deities that rule the Outer Planes are powered by their worshipers, after all, and the living have alignments as much as the dead.

[Coidzor]

That's not all that accurate. The Outer Planes are definitely also powered by living souls. The deities that rule the Outer Planes are powered by their worshipers, after all, and the living have alignments as much as the dead.

If we want to get into accuracy, there's the more glaring issue of trying to shoehorn the Warp into the Great Wheel or the Great Wheel into Warhammer's universe instead of accepting that the Great Wheel multiverse has been exposed to the Warhammer universe.

[Eldan]

That's not all that accurate. The Outer Planes are definitely also powered by living souls. The deities that rule the Outer Planes are powered by their worshipers, after all, and the living have alignments as much as the dead.

Exactly. To expand on that, the Outer Planes are the collective energy of everything material creatures believe in. The Abyss gets stronger whenever anyone has a destructive thought, or is afraid that someone else might have them, or even is afraid of natural destruction. It will always exist as long as people believe chaotic evil people or things might exist.

That goes for all the planes. Whenever anyone organizes anything or believes logic is a thing that exists, Mechanus grows.

It is, again, rather like the warp in that way. Just not with four gods, but with seventeen planes.

[GrayDeath]

I find your unspoken assumptions interesting. Why do you automatically integrate the Warp into the Outer Planes instead of seeing it as an alternative set of Outer Planes?

Think about the main difference: The Warp is powered by living souls, the regular outer planes are powered by dead souls.

Where am I doing that?

I nowhere state that even remotely, its all your assumption out of my statement that their contact and ensuing conflict would feed each other....:)

Also, as others have pointed out, thats only true MAINLY.

There are dead things fueling the warp, as well as living worshippers fueling Gods Realms in the outer planes.