Looking to Build a Rogue/Warlock Build

[Fishyninja]

Hello Ladies and Gentleman.

I am looking at building a sneaky warlock for my next campaign (starting in 2 weeks).

The concept I have is the character was a Spy/Thief/Assassin that was good at their trade but they were caught in a bad situation (possibly betrayed), and jokingly they thought to themselves "I'd sell my soul to get out of here" and Bam a Patron appeared forth!

That's the base concept anyway.

I am not allowed to play any bestial races, so I have gone with Scourge Aasamir, We will be rolling for stats but based on Point buy (and with racial modifiers) I should have:

Str: 8
Dex 15
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

We are starting at level 3 so I think that Rogue 2/Warlock 1 is a good start.

Thoughts, Ideas???

[Geodude6]

Do you mean 13 Cha, not 3?

[Fishyninja]

Do you mean 13 Cha, not 3?

Gah That was meant to be 16. I have no Idea how I typed 3. Let me go edit it.

[Specter]

There's some obvious competition between Sneak Attack and Eldritch Blast, so I'd take the Blade pact to make your attack action hurt a little more. Arcane Trickster is a fine addition to Warlock, as it gives you two different spell pools, one for short rests and the other for long rests. I envision Arcane Trickster 12/Feylock 8 to be a good one.

[Fishyninja]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am not seeing the competition with Sneak attack and Eldritch Blast?
I was thinking of being a Bladelock. In regards to Patron I was thinking maybe the Hexblade but not too sure on that one.

Also as we are starting at level 3 should I Rogue 2/Warlock 1 (That gives me booming blade and Cunning Action) or Warlock 2/Rogue 1?

[nickl_2000]

Forgive my ignorance, but I am not seeing the competition with Sneak attack and Eldritch Blast?


the issue here is that in your action you can either Eldritch blast or you can sneak attack, you can't do both. An EB will not trigger a sneak attack so you are unable to do that every round. So which will be your primary damage dealing and your go to actions?

[Mortis_Elrod]

If ua is on the table I think there is a certain synergy between Hexblade and swashbuckler, you don't even need to take blade pact (chain is cool too, have a stealth buddy), but i think Arcane trickster and Fey/Goo/Raven would be better thematically for you (possibly mechanically too). Goo has some weird but cool things and Fey provides alot for the charming spy type. Raven is solid for extra scouting and (if you take more levels) a nice get away card.

[Fishyninja]

the issue here is that in your action you can either Eldritch blast or you can sneak attack, you can't do both. An EB will not trigger a sneak attack so you are unable to do that every round. So which will be your primary damage dealing and your go to actions?

Ah I understand now.
Hmm an interesting idea. I think primarily as the character is a thief/assassin/spy he needs to be disguised and to not appear armed. I think most likely melee will be more my damage area. However having a decent ranged is something I am not averse too.


If ua is on the table I think there is a certain synergy between Hexblade and swashbuckler, you don't even need to take blade pact (chain is cool too, have a stealth buddy), but i think Arcane trickster and Fey/Goo/Raven would be better thematically for you (possibly mechanically too). Goo has some weird but cool things and Fey provides alot for the charming spy type. Raven is solid for extra scouting and (if you take more levels) a nice get away card.

UA is on the table, I have to admit the swashbuckler Rogue looks interesting indeed. I will have a look at the patrons again but can you give me a quick Pro/Con for the Fey, GOO and Raven please?

[nickl_2000]

Ah I understand now.
Hmm an interesting idea. I think primarily as the character is a thief/assassin/spy he needs to be disguised and to not appear armed. I think most likely melee will be more my damage area. However having a decent ranged is something I am not averse too.



UA is on the table, I have to admit the swashbuckler Rogue looks interesting indeed. I will have a look at the patrons again but can you give me a quick Pro/Con for the Fey, GOO and Raven please?

The nice thing about this is that you don't "need" to be an EB warlock. Most people do since it deal pretty massive damage. That being said, if you are looking for sneaky/spy that are some other really good invocations that would fit into your persona.

Beguiling Influence -Prof with Deception and Persuasion
Devil's Sight - Combining this with the spell Darkness will be your BEST friend
Mask of Many faces - No more need to use a disguise kit
Misty Visions - What? you think I'm over there. Wrong, I'm busy stabbing you in the back over and over again
One with Shadows - instead of hiding you can become truly invisible

[Fishyninja]

The nice thing about this is that you don't "need" to be an EB warlock. Most people do since it deal pretty massive damage. That being said, if you are looking for sneaky/spy that are some other really good invocations that would fit into your persona.

Beguiling Influence -Prof with Deception and Persuasion
Devil's Sight - Combining this with the spell Darkness will be your BEST friend
Mask of Many faces - No more need to use a disguise kit
One with Shadows - instead of hiding you can become truly invisible

Well at the moment, with the stats I have provided and based on a Rogue 2/Warlock 1 with the Urchin I have the following Proficient skills:

Acrobatics
Intimidation
Performance
Persuasion
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
Thieves Tools


I have Thieves Cant, Common, Celestial (which DM will allow me to change) I also have a disguise kit.

[Biggstick]

I am looking at building a sneaky warlock for my next campaign (starting in 2 weeks).

The concept I have is the character was a Spy/Thief/Assassin that was good at their trade but they were caught in a bad situation (possibly betrayed), and jokingly they thought to themselves "I'd sell my soul to get out of here" and Bam a Patron appeared forth!

Regardless of what you actually go Patron/Pact/Leveling scheme, I would say you should look to grab the Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self at will) Invocation and the Swashbuckler archetype. It just all meshes together so well.

As a preface to the build suggestion I'm about to provide. I'm suggesting a build that is a primary Rogue with a touch of Warlock thrown in. You could easily go for more Warlock levels if you'd like though, and it will still be fun.

Your initial build of Rogue 2 // Warlock 1 is fine. I'd probably grab one more level for the Swashbuckler archetype and then grab 1-2 more levels of Warlock. After your 2-3 total levels of Warlock, head back to Rogue until at least Rogue 7. Here's how it should look:

PC 1: Rogue 1
PC 2: Rogue 2
PC 3: Warlock 1
PC 4: Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler)
PC 5: Warlock 2 (Mask of Many Faces)
PC 6: Warlock 3
PC 7: Rogue 4 (ASI. Probably +2 Dex)
PC 8: Rogue 5
PC 9: Rogue 6
PC 10: Rogue 7

Make sure your cantrips include Eldritch Blast and BB. The reason you're grabbing Eldritch Blast is so you always have a solid ranged option. Now what you do with your second Invocation is up to you. I'd personally look to grab Devil's Sight and utilize Darkness shenanigans. If that isn't your cup of tea, you have plenty of other decent options including Agonizing Blast, Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight, etc.

Your Patron and Pact are really up to whatever flavor you're looking for to provide your character some depth. Since you're playing up the Rogue side of this character, the Patron is really just an extremely powerful NPC who's provided you with some solid at will magical abilities. Choose a Patron that you think you're going to have fun interacting with would be my advice. As for the Pact, they're all solid choices. If I had to choose one though, I'd probably go with Pact of the Chain for the improved Familiar. Get one that can turn itself Invisible and have it run ahead of you in the dungeon you're about to explore. One of the best scouts ever! Shoot, grab yourself the Invisibility or Spider Climb spell and walk right alongside your flying Invisible scout.

Spell choices should include Hex, and if you get to Warlock 3 should include Invisibility. After those two spells, the rest are flavor. I'm always partial to Hellish Rebuke, as I love flinging damage back at someone who attacks me. It might not be the best use of the limited spell slot, but it feels good to do so to me lol.

One of your early Rogue expertise's should be in either Perception or Stealth for sure. Maybe since they got caught, they don't necessarily have the expertise in Stealth quite yet? Anyways, this is a character who has pretty awesome Charisma, and looking at the later game Swashbuckler level 9 ability, I'd encourage one of your 4 total Rogue expertise's going into Persuasion.

Other then all that, you've chosen a really solid combination of classes. Rogue/Warlock go together really well. Swashbuckler pairs especially well with Warlock, as well as with any other Charisma based caster.

[nickl_2000]

Biggstick, your build will work my question though is why you need EB and the invocations? The PC will already have a good ranged option in using a Crossbow or Shortbow. They use Dex, which at the beginning is only going to be +2 instead of +3, but this doesn't make that much of a difference. By using a bow as well the PC will keep their primary damage dealer available with the sneak attack.

Then since you don't need to take the EB boosts, you can focus on different invocations that would help with the assassin/spy lifestyle. Assuming 3 levels of warlock you only get 2 invocations one of which would be for devils sight (and level 3 warlock to get Darkness) and the other Mask of Many Faces or Misty Visions. Plus then you can take BB because you are right, that is amazing and Minor Illusion or Friends.

[Biggstick]

Biggstick, your build will work my question though is why you need EB and the invocations? The PC will already have a good ranged option in using a Crossbow or Shortbow. They use Dex, which at the beginning is only going to be +2 instead of +3, but this doesn't make that much of a difference. By using a bow as well the PC will keep their primary damage dealer available with the sneak attack.

Then since you don't need to take the EB boosts, you can focus on different invocations that would help with the assassin/spy lifestyle. Assuming 3 levels of warlock you only get 2 invocations one of which would be for devils sight (and level 3 warlock to get Darkness) and the other Mask of Many Faces or Misty Visions. Plus then you can take BB because you are right, that is amazing and Minor Illusion or Friends.

Plenty of reasons for the EB. Maybe Piercing damage isn't working on the creature you're attacking. Maybe you don't have arrows (or are out of them). Maybe you don't have your bow. Maybe Force damage is the only type of damage that will work against the enemy. Maybe you need to hit more then one enemy (once you're higher level, EB gets multiple blasts and can do this). You might decide to utilize Hex + EB for even more damage types should Piercing damage not be effective. Maybe you want an option to use as you're running up to an enemy to hit it with your melee weapon and don't want to have to deal with the item interaction that should occur if you decide to try and put away your bow and grab your melee weapon on the same turn.

There are plenty of good reasons to grab EB, but if it doesn't necessarily fit what you're looking for, do you!

I would absolutely suggest grabbing Mask of Many Faces as an Invocation for the PC you've described. Being able to change who one looks like with an action is amazing. Even better is using Disguise Self on top of already having used a Disguise Kit on yourself. So if someone sees past your Disguise Self spell, they now have to make a check to get past your Disguise Kit Disguise. If they can get past both of those, good on em! And you can just utilize your Darkness or Invisibility to get the heck out of dodge at that point.

I like the Devil's Sight invocation and did recommend it as well. Some people don't like to use that sort of cheese though, as it can affect the party in a negative way if not done properly. Sometimes people also aren't the biggest fans of the Invocation if they're already gaining darkvision from their racial choice.

[nickl_2000]

Plenty of reasons for the EB. Maybe Piercing damage isn't working on the creature you're attacking. Maybe you don't have arrows (or are out of them). Maybe you don't have your bow. Maybe Force damage is the only type of damage that will work against the enemy. Maybe you need to hit more then one enemy (once you're higher level, EB gets multiple blasts and can do this). You might decide to utilize Hex + EB for even more damage types should Piercing damage not be effective. Maybe you want an option to use as you're running up to an enemy to hit it with your melee weapon and don't want to have to deal with the item interaction that should occur if you decide to try and put away your bow and grab your melee weapon on the same turn.

There are plenty of good reasons to grab EB, but if it doesn't necessarily fit what you're looking for, do you!

I would absolutely suggest grabbing Mask of Many Faces as an Invocation for the PC you've described. Being able to change who one looks like with an action is amazing. Even better is using Disguise Self on top of already having used a Disguise Kit on yourself. So if someone sees past your Disguise Self spell, they now have to make a check to get past your Disguise Kit Disguise. If they can get past both of those, good on em! And you can just utilize your Darkness or Invisibility to get the heck out of dodge at that point.

I like the Devil's Sight invocation and did recommend it as well. Some people don't like to use that sort of cheese though, as it can affect the party in a negative way if not done properly. Sometimes people also aren't the biggest fans of the Invocation if they're already gaining darkvision from their racial choice.


Fair enough, thanks for the assessment. I was just curious about your read on it




Maybe you want an option to use as you're running up to an enemy to hit it with your melee weapon and don't want to have to deal with the item interaction that should occur if you decide to try and put away your bow and grab your melee weapon on the same turn..

Wait, you mean that at the end of combat at your tables you don't have weapons littering the battlefield where PCs have dropped them as a free action before they can draw something else as part of an item interaction? Ours often gets so bad that we have special markers that we put on the table for all the weapons laying around!

[rooneg]

The big question you'll want to ask is if you want like an 8/12 split sort of character, or a X/2 sort of character. You can really easily be a Rogue with a dip in Warlock, or a Warlock with a dip in Rogue, and get a fair amount of what you want from the other class.

The Rogue X/Warlock 2 just grabs utility stuff from Warlock. Maybe don't take Eldritch Blast at all, instead just grab whatever interesting Invocations you want (Devil's Sight if you don't have darkvision, Mask of Many Faces, Armor of Shadows, there are a bunch of cool options) and a few useful first level spells that never go out of style, then go Rogue the rest of the way out.

The Warlock X/Rogue 2 just grabs Expertise and Cunning Action and then acts like whatever Warlock you want going forward. Take Eldritch Blast and Agonizing Blast and don't worry about the Sneak Attack thing, because your Sneak Attack dice are so small it doesn't really matter.

Others in the thread have already discussed the 8/12 sort of builds, and they're fine too, just consider how much of what you want you can get via a small dip, since that will let you get way more of your main class abilities, and not fall so far behind your single class companions.

[Specter]

Seconding One with Shadows. When you need to hide or escape pursuers, there's none better.

[Byke]

I love the character concept, and if you are going to ditch EB, then Fey with Moon Bow invocation has some potential.

We currently hves a Swash 3/Hexblade 5 in our campaign and he is extremely effective, but we house ruled that cursebringer can be any 1h bladed weapon.

[Fishyninja]

Regardless of what you actually go Patron/Pact/Leveling scheme, I would say you should look to grab the Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self at will) Invocation and the Swashbuckler archetype. It just all meshes together so well.

As a preface to the build suggestion I'm about to provide. I'm suggesting a build that is a primary Rogue with a touch of Warlock thrown in. You could easily go for more Warlock levels if you'd like though, and it will still be fun.

Your initial build of Rogue 2 // Warlock 1 is fine. I'd probably grab one more level for the Swashbuckler archetype and then grab 1-2 more levels of Warlock. After your 2-3 total levels of Warlock, head back to Rogue until at least Rogue 7. Here's how it should look:

PC 1: Rogue 1
PC 2: Rogue 2
PC 3: Warlock 1
PC 4: Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler)
PC 5: Warlock 2 (Mask of Many Faces)
PC 6: Warlock 3
PC 7: Rogue 4 (ASI. Probably +2 Dex)
PC 8: Rogue 5
PC 9: Rogue 6
PC 10: Rogue 7

Make sure your cantrips include Eldritch Blast and BB. The reason you're grabbing Eldritch Blast is so you always have a solid ranged option. Now what you do with your second Invocation is up to you. I'd personally look to grab Devil's Sight and utilize Darkness shenanigans. If that isn't your cup of tea, you have plenty of other decent options including Agonizing Blast, Misty Visions, Eldritch Sight, etc.

Your Patron and Pact are really up to whatever flavor you're looking for to provide your character some depth. Since you're playing up the Rogue side of this character, the Patron is really just an extremely powerful NPC who's provided you with some solid at will magical abilities. Choose a Patron that you think you're going to have fun interacting with would be my advice. As for the Pact, they're all solid choices. If I had to choose one though, I'd probably go with Pact of the Chain for the improved Familiar. Get one that can turn itself Invisible and have it run ahead of you in the dungeon you're about to explore. One of the best scouts ever! Shoot, grab yourself the Invisibility or Spider Climb spell and walk right alongside your flying Invisible scout.

Spell choices should include Hex, and if you get to Warlock 3 should include Invisibility. After those two spells, the rest are flavor. I'm always partial to Hellish Rebuke, as I love flinging damage back at someone who attacks me. It might not be the best use of the limited spell slot, but it feels good to do so to me lol.

One of your early Rogue expertise's should be in either Perception or Stealth for sure. Maybe since they got caught, they don't necessarily have the expertise in Stealth quite yet? Anyways, this is a character who has pretty awesome Charisma, and looking at the later game Swashbuckler level 9 ability, I'd encourage one of your 4 total Rogue expertise's going into Persuasion.

Other then all that, you've chosen a really solid combination of classes. Rogue/Warlock go together really well. Swashbuckler pairs especially well with Warlock, as well as with any other Charisma based caster.

This looks like a really good build! I have to admit I am still new to MCing, I play a BarBearian in another game, but yes the concept of a rogue who has a patron seems interesting to me, it is like a different take on the Arcane Trickster, which is another class I play as.

The reason why I liked the idea of a blade lock is being able to summon weapons whenever required means I can get into places where weaponsare not allow. The whole mask of many faces conecpt seems good. I feel I need to look into the patrons, spells and invocations a little more.

[Biggstick]

This looks like a really good build! I have to admit I am still new to MCing, I play a BarBearian in another game, but yes the concept of a rogue who has a patron seems interesting to me, it is like a different take on the Arcane Trickster, which is another class I play as.

The reason why I liked the idea of a blade lock is being able to summon weapons whenever required means I can get into places where weapons are not allowed. The whole mask of many faces conecpt seems good. I feel I need to look into the patrons, spells and invocations a little more.

Pact of the Blade would absolutely let you do such a thing! If you're looking to walk into places you normally shouldn't, the Armor of Shadows Invocation (Mage Armor on self at will) might be really appealing to you as well. It's +1 Studded Leather armor, and it doesn't even look like you're wearing armor! You could walk into pretty much any place you'd like, looking like whoever you want (with Mask of Many Faces), and have +1 armor (Armor of the Shadows) and a magic weapon (Pact weapon) always at your disposal!

[Fishyninja]

Pact of the Blade would absolutely let you do such a thing! If you're looking to walk into places you normally shouldn't, the Armor of Shadows Invocation (Mage Armor on self at will) might be really appealing to you as well. It's +1 Studded Leather armor, and it doesn't even look like you're wearing armor! You could walk into pretty much any place you'd like, looking like whoever you want (with Mask of Many Faces), and have +1 armor (Armor of the Shadows) and a magic weapon (Pact weapon) always at your disposal!

That was the idea and then when I need to slip out, dismiss the weapon, change my face or cast invisibility and walk out of there. Scott Free.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Pact of the Blade would absolutely let you do such a thing! If you're looking to walk into places you normally shouldn't, the Armor of Shadows Invocation (Mage Armor on self at will) might be really appealing to you as well. It's +1 Studded Leather armor, and it doesn't even look like you're wearing armor! You could walk into pretty much any place you'd like, looking like whoever you want (with Mask of Many Faces), and have +1 armor (Armor of the Shadows) and a magic weapon (Pact weapon) always at your disposal!

You could always have your familiar carry some daggers but yeah blade is good. Familiar is as good as the weapon if not better, unless you want a multitool weapon. I say hexblade patron if you want cha for weapon attacks and a chasem hound. I think Raven + Blade pact is the best here, you get a pseudofamiliar with some nice scouting potential and you get the always with you magic weapon. Then grab Mask of many faces, one with shadows, Devils sight, Armor of shadows. AND BOOM. You have Darkedge Shadowblade the master spy/edgelord with a magic sword and magic raven, granted to him by his Matron the raven queen who is a weird mother figure whom of course you have issues with since you were an orphan.

[Fishyninja]

Two words: Me likey.

[Talionis]

Arcane Trickster adds a lot of spells known to your list. In an 9 AT/11 Warlock you'll get access to 2nd level Wizard spells known and cast them as level 5.

I agree that a Swashbuckler is thematic and has synergy but Arcane Trickster has upside. Wizard spell list is one of the biggest.

[Sans.]

Arcane Trickster adds a lot of spells known to your list. In an 9 AT/11 Warlock you'll get access to 2nd level Wizard spells known and cast them as level 5.

I agree that a Swashbuckler is thematic and has synergy but Arcane Trickster has upside. Wizard spell list is one of the biggest.

Can't cast wizard spells with warlock slots iirc.

[RickAllison]

Can't cast wizard spells with warlock slots iirc.

Not true. Cast wizard spells with warlock slots, cast warlock spells with wizard slots, it doesn't matter. Your magical "power" is treated differently than your magical expertise for casting. You can have your levels of main casting split over every class (not efficient, but whatever) and your magical power in terms of spell slots will rise with all of them. Pact Magic works the same for the power being applicable to other methods, but the power is gained in a different manner.

[Fishyninja]

Out of interest, I know Hex marks an enemy, is there a way to track them using Hex?

I am looking for a magic way to track targets with the a Swashbuckler/Hexblade build. I know the Shadowhound is a good method but is obtained at level 6.

[Talionis]

Out of interest, I know Hex marks an enemy, is there a way to track them using Hex?

I am looking for a magic way to track targets with the a Swashbuckler/Hexblade build. I know the Shadowhound is a good method but is obtained at level 6.

No.

Hunters Mark is very similar to Hex allows tracking but it's only a first level Ranger Spell. So Magic Initiate could pick it up as a feat, Ranger 2 or Paladin 2 it's a spell on one the sub class lists.

But you could pick up Survivalist as a skill.

[Specter]

No.

Hunters Mark is very similar to Hex allows tracking but it's only a first level Ranger Spell. So Magic Initiate could pick it up as a feat, Ranger 2 or Paladin 2 it's a spell on one the sub class lists.

But you could pick up Survivalist as a skill.

You can't pick Ranger or Paladin spells with Magic Initiate.

[Fishyninja]

Ok so good old fashioned tracking until Hexblade level 6 then.

So the DM made us roll for stats 2d6+6, which is a method I have never rolled before. I decided to play as a human instead and now my stats with Racial Modifiers are:

Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 19.

Ok for a level 3 character me thinks.

[Drackolus]

Damn good stats.
I would suggest archfey for the moonbow. I did exactly that with rogue, and it certainly pulls some shennanigans.

Hexblade and any rogue is also great, though. The medium armor prof lets you just stick with that and a shield. You could even use your expertise for athletics and pick up shield master, but I wouldn't do that without multiattack (since you must take the attack action anyway). You would totally have the asi's to spare though with that cha and using cha for your rapier.

[Fishyninja]

Damn good stats.
I would suggest archfey for the moonbow. I did exactly that with rogue, and it certainly pulls some shennanigans.

Hexblade and any rogue is also great, though. The medium armor prof lets you just stick with that and a shield. You could even use your expertise for athletics and pick up shield master, but I wouldn't do that without multiattack (since you must take the attack action anyway). You would totally have the asi's to spare though with that cha and using cha for your rapier.

Well I am actually using a Scimitar (Sabre), fits better with the character idea and a dagger in the offhand. Also I am sticking with Light armour until I can get the Armour of Shadow's Evocation. I am also playing round with jsut Feats only to see where I can go with this character.

[MeeposFire]

It is possible to get EB and sneak attack in one nice package though sadly it would require a real loss in warlock levels and thus some of your warlock tricks are gone.

Fighter(EK)7or8/warlock2/rogue10or11.

The fighter levels allow you to make a weapon attack as a bonus action after using your cantrip which would be EB. This means you get full EB and a sneak attack in one round which is pretty nice offensively. Ou also get a nice portfolio of rogue tricks and special defenses. If you pick up crossbow expert you can be effective in melee and ranged combat using the same tricks.

Sadly the cost would be some of your cooler warlock tricks which is sad. You could try to get same back but they would certainly eat into your rogue levels which means giving up some other nice abilities.

[Armored Walrus]

I didn't see anyone mention it. Isn't there a feat that lets you sneak attack with spells? Or is that an arcane trickster archetype feature?

Edit: Never mind, didn't see page 2.

[Fishyninja]

Well after the first session, he could sell your shirt off your back I didn't get a Cha roll that was less than an 18!