Help me build a Dhampir paladin

[Frosty]

Hi everyone, I know that Dhampir is probably a horrible race to go with paladin, but I am doing this combination for roleplay reasons. How can I make this work well, given that I can't benefit from Lay on Hands or channeling?

We are doing Carrion Crown starting at level 1, we get two traits, and we have a 20 pt buy.

My initial thought is to abandon front lining completely so my lack of self healing doesn't hurt as much. With Dhampir racial adjustments being +dex, +cha, -con, it seems logical to just go archer-din and try to pump out damage from the back lines. I'm also of the mind to take the Oath of Vengeance archetype so at 4th level I can convert 2 of my worthless LoH into an extra smite whenever I need. For feats it's the standard PBS, precise shot, rapid shot, manyshot.

Anyone have any build advice for this ranged paladin? Or have a good argument for a non-ranged build period?

[Florian]

*Sigh* Dhampir Paladins seem to be a highly attractive thing....

This AP favors a follower of Pharasma and using a Heavy Mace.

[Frosty]

flavor wise the character is an undead (did not become this willingly). Lots of self angst involved. But the character needs to contribute as well. So I need all The advice I can get.

[Florian]

flavor wise the character is an undead (did not become this willingly). Lots of self angst involved. But the character needs to contribute as well. So I need all The advice I can get.

I don´t get your point.

[Geddy2112]

The life-dominant soul (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/life-dominant-soul/) feat will allow you to heal yourself and benefit from positive energy channels that heal living creatures as well as negative energy to heal living creatures, but at half. You can still be damaged by channeled positive energy, but only if positive energy is released in the area targeting undead to harm them.

Remember that you can always burn 2 uses of LoH to channel, and LoH is a good weapon against undead because it does not get a save for half damage(works on ghosts too). You can always choose to exclude or include yourself in channeled energy.
Likewise, you cannot heal yourself, but you are a potent healer for the party and focus on a combat medic build. You can grab a reach weapon and combat reflexes and provide a reach build if you don't want to do range-using the reach to keep combat away. Even with a -2 con and not being able to heal yourself med/heavy armor and d10hd good saves and immunity to several things means you won't be that fragile. Consider the oath of charity for a support combat medic build(you can mix this into an archer build).

Don't forget deadly aim as an archery feat, and clustered shots for high levels. A lot of undead have DR/bludgeoning so grab some blunt arrows as well to use against skeletons and other stuff.

[Frosty]

Life dominant soul works mechanically, but I can't take it due to thematics. When do you suggest I take deadly aim? Before or after rapid shot?

[Geddy2112]

You truly like to live dangerously then. Likely nobody in your party will channel negative or be evil, and cure spells/potions will hurt you, leaving mundane healing. Might be worth getting your heal skill up to a 10 modifier(9 with surgeons tools) so you can treat deadly wounds on yourself every day. A ranged build with med armor and a buckler is going to have pretty good AC, and ideally you just avoid getting hit.

For feats, taking rapid shot at level 5 gets you making 2 attacks a round a level earlier than everyone else. You can go super brazen and take it at level 3 instead of precise shot but the negative modifiers will make you fairly ineffective. Either way, I would take it before deadly aim because more attacks are generally better than a single attack with slightly more damage. Grab deadly aim at 7th level.

[Frosty]

I'm thinking of spending my FCB on skill point instead of Hp so I can have UMD. Then I can use wands of infernal healing. I dunno. UMD isn't even a class skill for me sigh. My traits are spent making bluff a class skill and also adding my CHA bonus against compulsion effects.

[grarrrg]

Life dominant soul works mechanically, but I can't take it due to thematics.

DING! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-channeled-life/)
"When targeted by positive energy...the wearer instead gains half the hit points...as temporary hit points for 10 minutes"

Basically, you can still "heal" from your LoH, but it will be more of a combat buff, than a heal.

[Oneris]

DING! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/amulet-of-channeled-life/)
"When targeted by positive energy...the wearer instead gains half the hit points...as temporary hit points for 10 minutes"

Basically, you can still "heal" from your LoH, but it will be more of a combat buff, than a heal.

Carrion crown starts at level 1. He won't be able to afford that for a very long time. Anatomy Doll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/doll-anatomy/) is more affordable, but still very limited in use. He can try drinking spent Haunt Siphons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/haunt-siphon/) once the party acquires them though.

[HamaYumi]

Might as well just use a wand of infernal healing to help with out of combat healing? LoH primarily to convert 2 of them into one smite evil if that functions still.

[Frosty]

Might as well just use a wand of infernal healing to help with out of combat healing? LoH primarily to convert 2 of them into one smite evil if that functions still. that's exactly how I plan to spend most of my useless LoHs. Smite all day long from afar!


Carrion crown starts at level 1. He won't be able to afford that for a very long time. Anatomy Doll (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/c-d/doll-anatomy/) is more affordable, but still very limited in use. He can try drinking spent Haunt Siphons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/haunt-siphon/) once the party acquires them though.
not sure how economical and practical haunt siphons are, but the anatomy doll looks interesting. It'll be weird to roleplay, but...

[Florian]

@Frosty:

Like I said, I don´t get your point.

The whole issue is based on in-combat healing, something a regular Paladin can do as a swift action.

A Dhampir can´t.

For this AP, you might consider using the Tortured Crusader archetype and do a 1 or 3 level dip into Cleric of Pharasma.

[Frosty]

@Frosty:

Like I said, I don´t get your point.

The whole issue is based on in-combat healing, something a regular Paladin can do as a swift action.

A Dhampir can´t.

For this AP, you might consider using the Tortured Crusader archetype and do a 1 or 3 level dip into Cleric of Pharasma.

My point is, based on the limitations I have set on this character, having to live with not able to self heal as a paladin, how would one build The paladin for effectiveness?

[Florian]

My point is, based on the limitations I have set on this character, having to live with not able to self heal as a paladin, how would one build The paladin for effectiveness?

Frosty, that is not a point and it won´t come up. You´re overthinking things, ok?

[Arutema]

My point is, based on the limitations I have set on this character, having to live with not able to self heal as a paladin, how would one build The paladin for effectiveness?

Do you have a frontliner you can cover behind in the party? If so, oath of vengeance archer paladin is a fantastic smite delivery system. Worship Erastil, take the Deadeye Bowman trait to ignore cover provided by an ally and go to town with the usual archery feats.

If you're not confident in having someone to stand in front of you, check out the Virtuous Bravo (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Paladin%20Virtuoso %20Bravo) archetype from Heroes of the High Court. You have the Dex for a swashbuckler type build, and this archetype gives you much of the Swashbuckler's mojo, complete with its overuse of swift actions. Normally this would be a problem because your lay on hands is a swift, but not in this case.

[Frosty]

I am certain there will be a front linger in the party, so yeah I'm already planning on Oath of Vengeancing it up. Deadeye bowman is interesting. How does it overlap with Improved Precise Shot?

[Florian]

How does it overlap with Improved Precise Shot?

No overlap. Once you get Impoved Precise Shot, Deadeye Bowman is a wasted feat.

[Arutema]

No overlap. Once you get Impoved Precise Shot, Deadeye Bowman is a wasted feat.

Indeed, doesn't stack, but you get the benefits of Deadeye Bowman from level 1, Improved precises shot requires BAB 11.

[Sagetim]

I mean, even if you can't lay hands on yourself for hp doesn't mean you can't be a frontline effective tank-fighter with sword and board and heavy armor (well, eventually heavy armor). Fighters move into melee and mix it up without having any self healing power, so what's the real problem? You have a similar chassis (d10 hit die, full bab, etc) with better saves (by far) and abilities that can benefit you in tanking the hell out of things (smite gives you a cha bonus to ac against that target).

Furthermore, you can heal the other people in melee with lay on hands. I don't see you as needing to hide back and away and shoot things from afar like... at all. And if you have a cleric in the party who can channel positive, then it becomes a matter of positioning and tactics instead of 'oh no, can't channel at all'.

And if you're going to blow lay on hands into more smites (not a bad idea, necessarily), then being in melee to benefit from that ac and be a road block to the rest of the party seems like a very effective role that you could play in combat.

With the +2 dex you don't have to invest in dexterity to make the most of it once you get full plate (which would be your goal as a melee tanking paladin) and the +2 cha is gravy that goes onto your AC, Saves, and uses of lay on hands (and thus potentially into your smites per day as well). You can invest those points you would have put into dexterity into negating your con penalty (at least getting it up to 12 or so). I might be remembering pathfinder point buy wrong, but you could invest 4 into strength, 4 into con, 3 into wis, and 9 into charsima and wind up with something like 14 strength, 12 dex, 12 con, 10 int, 13 wis, and whatever charisma that comes out to. Proceed to smite the crap out of things in melee with a shield and the heaviest armor you can start with.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Using the other dhampir bloodlines, you don't have to be shoehorned into ranged; a Svetocher is decent at melee, if a little fragile. Empyreal Knight archetype gets rid of your Lay On Hands for summoning, but if you are set on keeping it, the Oath of Charity might be something you want to look in to, since you're not going to be healing yourself anyway.

... Why can't you take Life-Dominant Soul?

[Sagetim]

Using the other dhampir bloodlines, you don't have to be shoehorned into ranged; a Svetocher is decent at melee, if a little fragile. Empyreal Knight archetype gets rid of your Lay On Hands for summoning, but if you are set on keeping it, the Oath of Charity might be something you want to look in to, since you're not going to be healing yourself anyway.

... Why can't you take Life-Dominant Soul?

I would assume it has something to do with the theme and feel that both he and the GM want the character and setting to have. More horror oriented than monster slaying oriented, if you get what I mean.

[souridealist]

I think the problem with melee as a non-healing paladin, when a fighter can do so, is that it's easier for most fighters to get healing from the cleric - other people's positive energy won't help either. That said, if there's a cleric in the party, they can prepare Inflict Whatever Wounds regardless of alignment, so the paladin won't be completely out to dry.

For archer paladins, I like the Divine Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/divine-hunter/) archetype. It's incompatible with Oath of Vengeance, sadly, but I figured I'd offer the option anyway. If nothing else, you can exclude yourself when channeling positive energy, and if you're healing everyone else, that frees up a few spell slots for the cleric to prepare Inflict and heal you. Assuming you have a cleric, anyway. The more I think about this, the more I think synergy is going to be important, so chat with the others.

Incidentally, I absolutely love the concept of a self-loathing dhampir paladin.

[Ellrin]

I think the problem with melee as a non-healing paladin, when a fighter can do so, is that it's easier for most fighters to get healing from the cleric - other people's positive energy won't help either. That said, if there's a cleric in the party, they can prepare Inflict Whatever Wounds regardless of alignment, so the paladin won't be completely out to dry.

For archer paladins, I like the Divine Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/divine-hunter/) archetype. It's incompatible with Oath of Vengeance, sadly, but I figured I'd offer the option anyway. If nothing else, you can exclude yourself when channeling positive energy, and if you're healing everyone else, that frees up a few spell slots for the cleric to prepare Inflict and heal you. Assuming you have a cleric, anyway. The more I think about this, the more I think synergy is going to be important, so chat with the others.

Incidentally, I absolutely love the concept of a self-loathing dhampir paladin.

The thing I like about Divine Hunter for archerdins is that it lets you lay on hands at a distance, so you can still be a combat medic if you absolutely have to without getting right on the front lines. Unfortunately it's a pretty short distance, and while free precise shot is nice (and you get a sort-of not-quite improved precise shot ability at 8th), the rest of the archetype really just doesn't make much sense. A lot of your abilities require you be pretty close to melee range, and that aura that gives archery feats to your allies is pointless--you're either an archer and have those feats, or you're not and you don't have a decent bow to let you take advantage of them.

[souridealist]

I will admit I haven't played a divine hunter yet; the right game hasn't come along. The tweaks to the divine bond seem potentially useful to me, though, and the eighth-level ability to shoot around your friends isn't bad either.

In my experience with archers (and ranged casters) in general, they're usually still close-ish to melee range, either because we're in a dungeon, trying to make use of Point-Blank shot, or being pragmatic about a smallish game mat.

Hunter's Blessing I agree is at best highly situational. Still, if your melee characters are carrying even a masterwork bow as a backup weapon, you might get a few good moments out of it - possibly with a fleeing villain, for example.

Anyway, if they're committed to Oath of Vengeance it's a moot point, and I think that's a perfectly sensible way to go with the character as well; I just figured I'd toss the idea out.

[Frosty]

If Oath of Vengeance didn't conflict with Divine Hunter, I would've taken both.

One of the main reasons I didn't go melee is also because Dhampirs have a racial -2 penalty to Con. With my point spread I have a 12 in Con. And I can't self heal. Eww. I mean, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha basically screams out archery.