Deities/Patrons

[Escribblings]

I asked a question a while back about Patrons, specifically the less "evil incarnate" Cthulu-esque types for the Warlock GOO.

I'm in the process of building a Paladin Warlock. I was wondering, apart from Fiend/Oathbreaker or Fey/Ancients...

What about GOO/Devotion - I think it "could" work, but could it be possible that the otherworldly patron for the Warlock would fit with the Tenets of Devotion? Particularly on the side of good vs evil?

Or does Cthulu still work with this?

[Mith]

Do you care about changing the fluff on the various mechanics? If you would rather stick to as close to what is in the book, then this might not work for you.

I always write the Far Realm like aspects as being the Primordial Ocean and forgotten beings of the distant past. This can also work with vestiges of dead titans or the like. So a Paladin of Devotion strikes a bargain with a forgotten god that perhaps themselves uphold the same values as the Paladin. Some features such as Create Thrall might have to be changed or rarely used, as that might not work with the idea of the Devotion Paladin.

[Naanomi]

Devotions doesn't play as well with Warlocks as some of the other Oaths, I'm not sure how to make a character 'organically' both classes at the same time. But as a more linear narrative:

Someone could always have been deceived: a cult could play up Cthulu as a force of cosmic Good, and only after you swear your allegiance to them (or not even then...) do you realize what a terrible mistake you made; so you redouble your life to your noble Oath

[RickAllison]

Daniel 10:5-6


I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. His body was like topaz, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.

That is a description of an angel in the Bible. They could communicate with any person on earth (the telepathic messages), had to declare to humans not to be afraid when they appeared, and spent most of the time in Heaven. Switch Heaven with some plane and that sounds like a Good GOO to me. They can have the good of the world in mind, but their approach and being is unable to be processed by man.

[Escribblings]

Thanks, I might be able to work with that.

And that sounds like a bloody good description for the Aasimar too!

[JackPhoenix]

Meh, too humanoid, sounds like generic celestial. Now, Ophanim... wheels covered in eyes... that's GoO material.

[RickAllison]

Meh, too humanoid, sounds like generic celestial. Now, Ophanim... wheels covered in eyes... that's GoO material.

Considering that was the conservative description for an angel, I would say they fit pretty well in general. GOOs are defined by being these unknowable entities, and these bizarre angels, even the conservative ones, do fit.

[Naanomi]

If you are looking I fluffing the patron as an angel it would work... though it requires quite a shift from classic DnD cosmology

[RickAllison]

If you are looking I fluffing the patron as an angel it would work... though it requires quite a shift from classic DnD cosmology

Really, even a regular D&D Solar is pretty strange. It may look humanoid, but in terms of power and personality it has more in common with Cthulhu than Joe the Mechanic. Especially in 5e, which does not have many save-or-dies in terms of hitting 0 HP, Solars possess the ability to truly save-or-die. No chance to stabilize, no healing. If you don't have Death Ward, you are just done. And he can do that once every six seconds. Some of them are active servants of great deities, but most of them (like a suggested scenario for GOOs) are sleeping in a hidden plane for events far beyond our scale.

And if all that doesn't peak your interest, have your patron be an epic-level Flumph or Flumph god. Very GOOey, very Good.

[Millstone85]

They can have the good of the world in mind, but their approach and being is unable to be processed by man.This is in my opinion the most important theme. A GOO's very nature, its mere presence, can be too much for human sanity and even tear the fabric of reality as we know it. This says nothing about the entity's intentions, and I like the idea of a benevolent GOO taking extreme care in its interactions with the mortal world.

Also yeah, it does go well with certain depictions of angels.


Meh, too humanoid, sounds like generic celestial. Now, Ophanim... wheels covered in eyes... that's GoO material.I would indeed go with the weirdest depictions.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d4/c5/28/d4c52893004bf5384099c4d49f014ac6.jpg

Yes, there is something humanoid in there, but it is probably like the fetus from 2001 and/or the Truth from FMA.


If you are looking I fluffing the patron as an angel it would work... though it requires quite a shift from classic DnD cosmologyI think the current main cosmology has the perfect place for such a patron: the Positive Plane, which can be considered to stand in between the Upper Planes and the Far Realm.

There was even an UA (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/light-dark-underdark) that proposed to make the plane itself a patron for warlocks, though I still think it would sound better as a sorcerous origin.


This can also work with vestiges of dead titans or the like. So a Paladin of Devotion strikes a bargain with a forgotten god that perhaps themselves uphold the same values as the Paladin.I like the concept of vestiges, which has been a warlock thing in at least one edition. And like I said in one of the OP's previous threads... enlarged petrified corpse floating in the Astral Plane à la Knowhere.


And if all that doesn't peak your interest, have your patron be an epic-level Flumph or Flumph god. Very GOOey, very Good.http://www.kramerkreations.com/images/flumph_FSM.jpg

Flumphs are more than a punch line, especially in this edition, but that joke is just unavoidable. :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

I think the current main cosmology has the perfect place for such a patron: the Positive Plane, which can be considered to stand in between the Upper Planes and the Far Realm.
Despite the simplified drawing of the 'map of the cosmos' in the DMG, the Positive Plane has nothing to do with the Upper Planes (they are definitively neutral like the inner planes they were traditionally connected to), and definitely nothing to do with the Far Realm (which is antithetical to the life energies the Positive Plane essentializes, as it is antithetical to all things natural in the great-wheel cosmology)

Not that all GOO patrons need to be Far Realms related (there are things in the deep-astral and shadow that definitely qualify, as well as things in the more obscure places in the planes)... but Angels are creatures of the Upper Planes and fairly well defined within the cosmology

[Millstone85]

Despite the simplified drawing of the 'map of the cosmos' in the DMG, the Positive Plane has nothing to do with the Upper Planes (they are definitively neutral like the inner planes they were traditionally connected to)While it is true that the *PHB illustration of the Great Wheel doesn't establish a hard connection, nor does anything else in the books, that conspicuous placement is an example of a general tendency.

Another example would be the Spirit Guardians spell, which allows a good or neutral-aligned caster to summon their choice of angelic or fey-looking spirits that deal radiant damage, and an evil-aligned caster to summon fiendish-looking spirits that deal necrotic damage.

Also, the P/N planes indeed "were" traditionally connected to the Inner Planes, past tense. This edition makes them even more outer than the Outer Planes, suggesting a more philosophical dimension.

I actually dislike this state of things, but if I roll with it then I can definitely see these weird angels taking residence in the Positive Plane.


and definitely nothing to do with the Far Realm (which is antithetical to the life energies the Positive Plane essentializes, as it is antithetical to all things natural in the great-wheel cosmology)Again, the P/N planes are now the outermost part of the Great Wheel. This is the connection I saw with the Far Realm, which is outside it all.

Fully extrapolating now, the P/N planes with their pure essences of life and death could act as a protective shell against the Far Realm.


Not that all GOO patrons need to be Far Realms related (there are things in the deep-astral and shadow that definitely qualify, as well as things in the more obscure places in the planes)Very true, and vestiges would be a neat example of a GOO patron that doesn't use the Far Realm.

On the other hand, I like the Far Realm. :smalltongue:


but Angels are creatures of the Upper Planes and fairly well defined within the cosmologyThe campaign could still have angels as described in the MM, and name the weirder ones archangels or something.

It would then raise the question of their kinship. Perhaps the ritual used by good-aligned deities to create humanoid angels from their astral essence also captures a spark of PP angels. Or perhaps PP angels were once solars that walked to the edge of the cosmos and stayed there to stand guard. Or perhaps there is no relation in-universe, just the inspiration from real-life beliefs about angels.

[Escribblings]

Posted this in the other related post of mine on here, but cross posting here for relevance...


...


So I haven't played 5E, though I'm interested. But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?
I keep seeing this combo of Paladin Warlock come up because 'optimized'. But...like...how?

[snip]
Well, it is a good question. As mentioned above I have already started a thread to try and reconcile this on here.

I also had this conversation in the OOC of the game I'm currently in:


In reply to Balik Giantborne (msg # 461):

... Devotion/GOO? o.O

How does that happen?
Good question, and one I haven't totally solved yet.

I have been doing much reading. The problem with the GOO being ineffable is that no one can describe it!

Because of this, everyone points to Cthulu (my knowledge of HPL is even more lacking than that of DnD).

However, a ray of light has pointed out the path to me.

Unlike the Fiend or the Fey, you technically don't make a pact with the GOO. You get sucked in and get your powers by some strange event.

The GOO is ineffable and incomprehensible, but somehow gets you to do stuff for it. Maybe through a cryptic vision, maybe through some sort of harbinger, sign or omen. And here's the kicker - maybe what he gets you to do is not what is important, but something that you do on the path to that goal sets in motion a chain of events that ends up with the result the GOO wants.

i.e. You get strange vision about a chess piece floating in the sea, then you sight a lonely tower in the middle of a lake from a hillock. To get there you have to go through a forest.

You get to the tower and free a maiden, or whatever - but on the way to the tower, as you push through the forest, you disturb a butterfly. And as it flaps it;s wings a chain of events are put into place that cause a massive storm on the other side of the world.

Now a Paladin serving the Oath of devotion could stumble across something bathed in a unnatural ray of light, maybe in a cave coming from what he thinks is a chink in the ceiling but is in fact a tear in the fabric of reality. Drawn to this light he is overcome. When he awakes he has new powers but believes them to have been imparted by the the deity of his order rather than an otherworldly being.


What I think fits quite well mechanically are the GOO's almost psionic benefits, and the blades weapon being fluffed as a holy weapon.

If our GM let's me create this character (I may have to wait until I retire one of my other two first), I'm hoping he will actually let me use EB when the time comes, but to give radiant damage as opposed to force. I mean for one, it actually weakens it due to resistances and immunity, but thematically is a better fit IMO

What do you think???

[Drackolus]

This actually is pretty inspiring for the campaign setting I'm writing, which overtly removes the alignment system to make moral ambiguity dilemmas easier to put in. Also goes against standard d&d assumptions, similar in scope to Dark Sun. I lovw the idea of celestials being more akin to great old ones - they seem kind and beneficial to mortal races but are somewhat inscrutable, whereas fiends feel very personable and relatable. Hehe, I'm having SO much fun with this.

Aaaanywho, keep in mind that paladins draw power from their own devotion, not some outside force. You could be a paladin of conquest in service to Lathander, assuming you believe the clergy is wrong about their deity. Heck, a paladin doesn't need a deity at all - any solid reason for them to believe that the oath they take is the correct way.
Being a paladin and warlock may have no overlap at all. You can believe that the tenets of devotion are correct and that this inscrutible power makes a great teacher. Your patrons intentions are completely irrelevant as long as the paladin doesn't know them. Or they might just be irrelevant to mortals as a whole, but being able to manipulate this paladin may help their endgame. The paladin doesn't even really need to know that there is a great old one. If they are an independant practicer of the oath, they might just chalk up all these powers under the same source (even of that's incorrect.)

If you go the route of "patrons don't grant you power, they teach you secret magic," then the actual "source" (the character) is thr same.

[Sabeta]

"A warlock is defined by a pact with an otherworldly
being. Sometimes the relationship between warlock
and patron is that like that of a cleric and a deity, though
the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not
gods. A warlock might lead a cult dedicated to a demon
prince, an archdevil, or an utterly alien entity - beings
not typically served by clerics. More often, though, the
arrangement is similar to that between a master and
an apprentice. The warlock learns and grows in power,
at the cost of the occasional services performed on the
patron's behalf."

This paragraph is great, because it directly contradicts what I feel is one of 5th Editions biggest misconceptions. Everyone takes one look at Pact of the Fiend and suddenly the entire class is full of devil worshipers selling their souls for power; when the reality implies a much more fair exchange of favors for secrets.. "Dark" Magic to be sure, but nowhere does it say you're selling your soul or anything of the sort. As such, I don't see any reason why a Paladin cannot take on a few Warlock levels, as long as the Patron they choose is somewhat compatible with their Deity. Not many gods would be fond of you bargaining with devils, but GOO and Fey should be perfectly fine. As long as both you and your God know that your Loyalty is to the God and not a higher power.

Also, since Patrons are specifically non deity, perhaps you and your Patron could share a God. (See: The discussion on Angels or other Celestials in this thread).

[Millstone85]

Aaaanywho, keep in mind that paladins draw power from their own devotion, not some outside force.Well, sort of.

My recommended read on this matter is the DMG p13 "Forces and Philosophies".

I find it full of good advice on how to handle divine power without a deity, and I think it goes well with how the PHB describes druids and paladins.

My two favourite parts:


A person can be devoted to the philosophy of good and offer worship to various good deities, or revere the force of nature and also pay homage to the gods of nature, who might be seen as personal manifestations of an impersonal force.I like the idea that, say, chivalry is a tangible magical essence in the Upper Planes, and the soul currently most in tune with it is regarded as the god or goddess of chivalry. Others might access this power with the help of the deity, or by themselves, or a little of both.


A philosophy that only one person believes in isn't strong enough to bestow magical power on that person.This is a possible answer to the paladin who just thinks himself virtuous. The sacred weight of the oath is still a form of outside force (as divine magic should be) and the paladin should still fall, or unknowingly switch to an oath that befits the delusion (like the Oath of Tyranny, called Conquest in this UA (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/paladin-sacred-oaths)).

But some settings, like the Forgotten Realms, enforce a more staightforward use of gods for all divine spellcasters. I remember the OP playing in a very homebrewed campaign, so they should ask their DM where paladin powers come from.

[Dappershire]

But some settings, like the Forgotten Realms, enforce a more staightforward use of gods for all divine spellcasters. I remember the OP playing in a very homebrewed campaign, so they should ask their DM where paladin powers come from.

Yeah, I guess I'm just use to more FR play. When I think of a Paladin accepting power from anything other than their God, I expect to see a fallen Paladin. Those Gods are mega jealous about that stuff.
But after reading people's explanations about other worlds ideas of paladins, I suppose I can understand a Paladin/warlock combo. Pretty much any patron.
I don't have to like it though. :smalltongue:
Maybe I always figured the Paladin was Good's response to Warlocks in the first place.

[Escribblings]

That's the thing...

I'm not experienced in the queue of D&D - only been playing 5e in one online play by post group since December.

But I always thought of warlocks as evil...

Yet the GOO and the Fey are more chaotic reading the PHB.

I'd personally still see the Fiend as evil, but I can see arguments for otherwise too...

[Millstone85]

I remember the OP playing in a very homebrewed campaignScratch that. I was thinking of someone with a Raven Queen cleric.


Those Gods are mega jealous about that stuff.Amusingly, one of the most jealous FR deity would qualify as all officially released patrons:
* Archfey - She is an elven goddess.
* Fiend - She is also a demon.
* GOO - One of her sometime associates is the Far-Realm-touched god of aberrations (and oozes, for extra gooeyness).
* Undying - Another of her sometime associates is a lich goddess.


Maybe I always figured the Paladin was Good's response to Warlocks in the first place.And I thought the warlock was Evil's answer to paladins. :smallbiggrin:


But I always thought of warlocks as evil...

Yet the GOO and the Fey are more chaotic reading the PHB.

I'd personally still see the Fiend as evil, but I can see arguments for otherwise too...On the side of the patrons themselves, the default assumptions are:
* Archfey - Chaotic and either evil or an uncomfortable shade of neutral.
* Fiend - Evil, as in evil incarnate, made of Ev666. Can be lawful or chaotic.
* GOO - Can be any alignment, but that's irrelevant. Your brain is leaking.
* Undying - Very setting dependent. A no-no in FR but maybe not in Eberron.

But it is not that difficult to imagine a good archfey, or even a lawful one. Let's make a pact with the Lady of the Lake or the Fairy Godmother, and not be cynical about it.

A good fiend now, that's pretty much an oxymoron. It can be done but it is kind of lame in my opinion.

As for a good GOO, we have this thread. The Undying would get a similar discussion.

On the side of the warlocks now, anyone can be of any alignment, but a good warlock with an evil and/or really weird patron means a dark and edgy backstory.

http://personnages-disney.com/Images/Images%20personnages/Peter%20Pan.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/31/John_Constantine.jpghttps://myanimelist.cdn-dena.com/images/characters/6/139487.jpg

[Sabeta]

Snip

Yeah, fiends are pretty much evil incarnate. SCAG mentions though that Wizards and Warlocks get along pretty well though, both pursue the art of magic in their own ways. It also mentions that so many Warlocks are fiend pact that it might as well be synonymous. Which altogether implies that a Fiendpact Warlock is not necessarily evil, and that the fiends requests of them are often minor enough that they can continue living an orderly life of research.

[Millstone85]

Yeah, fiends are pretty much evil incarnate. SCAG mentions though that Wizards and Warlocks get along pretty well though, both pursue the art of magic in their own ways. It also mentions that so many Warlocks are fiend pact that it might as well be synonymous. Which altogether implies that a Fiendpact Warlock is not necessarily evil, and that the fiends requests of them are often minor enough that they can continue living an orderly life of research.Alternatively, FR is a setting where one can openly worship the god of murder or the bitch queen of the sea and still walk the streets. Asmodeus himself is becoming popular as the god of indulgence.

And yet it is also the setting where all paladins share the same lawful and good tenets that different oaths just prioritize differently.

It must really blow to be a paladin in the Realms.

[Unoriginal]

As such, I don't see any reason why a Paladin cannot take on a few Warlock levels, as long as the Patron they choose is somewhat compatible with their Deity.

Paladins don't depend on a deity, in 5e. Their power is from their Oath itself, they might very well not worship a god in particular.




Also, since Patrons are specifically non deity, perhaps you and your Patron could share a God. (See: The discussion on Angels or other Celestials in this thread).

Note that some deities can be Patrons as well.

Orcus, for exemple, is known to be able to grant power to Clerics *and* teach people how to be Warlock. And he's also a Demon Lord.

[Asmotherion]

Wile it's not official, GOO is considered the Neutral patron, wile the Fiend is the Evil and Fay is the Good option.

Now, this is territory of DM aproval, but a Devotion Paladin seems like the least viable one to become a Warlock.

Also, Deities are not supposed to be able to be Patrons and vice versa, with the exception of Asmodeus, who used to be the King of the 9 Hells (eligible as a Fiend Patron), but now is a Deity. Thus, you could have formed a Warlock Pact with him when he was still not a Deity, and now that he became a Deity became his Paladin...

Wile a bit of refluffing would be needed, as the Devotion Paladin, especially the tenents of their oath are atuned to a good deity, you can still be a Devotion Paladin of Asmodeus and still be his Warlock. (Vengence seems more logical though). Bonus lore points if you are a middle aged-elf who lived during the spell-pleague. :P

[Millstone85]

Also, Deities are not supposed to be able to be Patrons and vice versa, with the exception of Asmodeus, who used to be the King of the 9 Hells (eligible as a Fiend Patron), but now is a Deity. Thus, you could have formed a Warlock Pact with him when he was still not a Deity, and now that he became a Deity became his Paladin...I know the PHB says that "the beings that serve as patrons for warlocks are not gods", but that same PHB then lists Ghaunadaur and Tharizdun among possible GOO patrons.

We also got an UA (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/faithful) about entering a pact with a god of knowledge, naming Azuth and Oghma in the Realms, as well as another UA (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/warlock-and-wizard) that made a patron of the Raven Queen, a 4e goddess.

Clearly, they meant patrons need not be gods, instead of must not be gods.

And indeed, why couldn't a god imbue someone with arcane power? I can see many gods choosing not to do this, preferring the relationship they have with divine spellcasters, but it is an option.

Finally, I think Asmodeus is no less king of the Nine Hells for achieving godhood. Even if he somehow lost the ability to make someone a warlock, one of his subordinates could surely do it in his name.

[Escribblings]

Wile it's not official, GOO is considered the Neutral patron, wile the Fiend is the Evil and Fay is the Good option.

[snip]

And had it been left to the PHB I would have agreed. But under GOO in SCAG you have


Dendar the Night Serpent - spawn of the first nightmare and devourer of foul visions
Ghaunadaur - Underdark god of aberrations
Kezef - Chaos Hound
Moander - A dark power of corruption and decay
Tyranthraxus - The possessing spirit or flamed one
Zargon - An undying and unkillable evil


With the very slightest of exceptions for Tyranthraxus, they all sound pretty evil rather than neutral.

[Escribblings]

I'm currently asking my GM of he'll include an old unearthed arcana...

Because I've only just discovered the "Undying Light" patron, and the write up fits perfectly I think.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/light-dark-underdark

[Millstone85]

I'm currently asking my GM of he'll include an old unearthed arcana...

Because I've only just discovered the "Undying Light" patron, and the write up fits perfectly I think.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/light-dark-underdarkWell, like I said earlier...
There was even an UA (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/light-dark-underdark) that proposed to make the plane itself a patron for warlocks, though I still think it would sound better as a sorcerous origin. I would reflavor either Great Old One or Undying Light as an ophanim-like thing somewhere in the Positive Plane.

http://pre14.deviantart.net/674d/th/pre/i/2015/126/d/4/ezekiel_saw_the_wheeeeel_2_0_by_warlord_of_noodles-d16e3aw.jpg (http://seekhim.deviantart.com/art/Ezekiel-saw-the-wheeeeel-2-0-71201336)

[Unoriginal]

And indeed, why couldn't a god imbue someone with arcane power?

A Warlock's Patron does not *imbue* with arcane power, they teach. Some gods know how to do it, others have no reason to.