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View Full Version : DM Help Trying not to kill the party in the first session



JustAsking
2017-04-26, 09:27 PM
Hey, so I'm a new DM, just starting out and putting together my first campaign for my party of three first players. In my campaign, my party are trying to travel from a large town to the capital city of the continent. In the town, the players will find a guide by the name of Madam Screl. For a fee, she will help them quickly travel to the city along the coastal road as both the town and the city share about a 60 or so mile coastline. But, the road cuts through a mountain range where the party doesn't know a band of goblins is waiting for, and ambushing, travelers to steal treasure and possibly use the travelers as food. My question is, how many goblins would be too many? My party consists of three people, all are first levels. How can I decide on a safe number of goblins to provide a good fight for my party while not making it a strong possibility that everyone will die?
Much thanks for any help :smile:

dadada
2017-04-26, 09:40 PM
I don't know what edition you're in, but in 4th, three goblins would be appropriate.

Geddy2112
2017-04-26, 10:06 PM
For goblins, no more than 2 per PC and 2 per is going to be tough. Low level combats in most d20 systems can be very swingy-if the goblins get a lucky shot they could down or instantly kill a character. Another factor is action economy-you want both sides to have roughly the same amount of actions in combat. If they run at each other and attack a 3v3 or 4v4 with the guide is likely fair. 2v1 from the goblins gives the goblins more attacks, and more chances for the goblins to get a lucky shot. Likewise, if the ambush favors the goblins(they attack from range, first, with cover) then the combat favors the goblins.

I would go with 2-5 for 3 PC's, and if the guide is fighting maybe 3-6. Lower if the goblins have incredibly good tactics/range/cover/other advantages, and higher if they are just standing there in broad daylight.

Is the guide capable of fighting, and if so, is she stronger than the PC's? If she is much stronger she could count as two PC's worth of combat. What if the PC's don't hire the guide? Or what if they go another way? Or not go at all? Last but not least, you can always have capture be an option instead of just killing your players should they get knocked down/out/unable to fight but not killed.

JustAsking
2017-04-27, 12:49 AM
For goblins, no more than 2 per PC and 2 per is going to be tough. Low level combats in most d20 systems can be very swingy-if the goblins get a lucky shot they could down or instantly kill a character. Another factor is action economy-you want both sides to have roughly the same amount of actions in combat. If they run at each other and attack a 3v3 or 4v4 with the guide is likely fair. 2v1 from the goblins gives the goblins more attacks, and more chances for the goblins to get a lucky shot. Likewise, if the ambush favors the goblins(they attack from range, first, with cover) then the combat favors the goblins.

I would go with 2-5 for 3 PC's, and if the guide is fighting maybe 3-6. Lower if the goblins have incredibly good tactics/range/cover/other advantages, and higher if they are just standing there in broad daylight.

Is the guide capable of fighting, and if so, is she stronger than the PC's? If she is much stronger she could count as two PC's worth of combat. What if the PC's don't hire the guide? Or what if they go another way? Or not go at all? Last but not least, you can always have capture be an option instead of just killing your players should they get knocked down/out/unable to fight but not killed.

Thanks, that helps a lot. I haven't thought much into them not using the guide, I was thinking of detailing at the start of the session that they had found a guide and had just started the journey then continue the game on from that as a starting point.

Firest Kathon
2017-04-27, 03:08 AM
Regarding the guide, I strongly advise to not make it stronger than the PCs. After all, this is supposed to be the adventure and story of the PCs, and not the story of the guide fighting the goblins while the PCs cheer from the guidelines.

For the goblins, consider them having a low morale. Maybe they are used to attacking helpless merchants, once two or three of them die to the PCs they try to retreat.

JustAsking
2017-04-27, 04:22 AM
Regarding the guide, I strongly advise to not make it stronger than the PCs. After all, this is supposed to be the adventure and story of the PCs, and not the story of the guide fighting the goblins while the PCs cheer from the guidelines.

For the goblins, consider them having a low morale. Maybe they are used to attacking helpless merchants, once two or three of them die to the PCs they try to retreat.

Good point, I thought that the guide could be taken by the goblins if they do retreat so that the PC's have to rescue her from the goblins hide out.

Geddy2112
2017-04-27, 08:54 AM
Regarding the guide, I strongly advise to not make it stronger than the PCs. After all, this is supposed to be the adventure and story of the PCs, and not the story of the guide fighting the goblins while the PCs cheer from the guidelines.

For the goblins, consider them having a low morale. Maybe they are used to attacking helpless merchants, once two or three of them die to the PCs they try to retreat.

I wholeheartedly second all of this.

For morale-make all monsters/enemies/encounters have morale. A lot of things will fight, but how many things are willing to die fighting the PC's? Certainly mindless undead, oozes and similar mindless creatures will, but other things will only fight to the death if they have no other choice. The goblins are probably willing to risk getting hurt and losing 1-2, but they don't want to all die over robbing some merchants. Take the same goblins cornered in their home cave-in this case, they are highly likely to fight to the death, or attempt to surrender if they are losing.

Lo'Tek
2017-04-28, 08:58 PM
Goblins tend to be a bit cowardly. Four of them attacking four travellers? Unlikely
Moral failure reduces the number of goblins. So starting with few more is not a bad choice.
But how to not overwhelm the heroes in the first round by sheer number of attacks?

Have some Goblins do things that are not directly useful.

One is just shouting and pointing. This goblin might even be the first the heroes see, so the action of this Goblin is to "summon more goblins".
Two come out of hiding behind the group but do not enter combat immediatly. Instead they hold their actions to attack those trying to flee and engage in the second combat round (well unless one of your players is trying to flee)

So you can easily have six or seven enemies, three or four engage, with the other three joining combat in round two.

Let the goblins make some tactical mistakes. For example: Instead of geeking the mage first they focus on those with weapon and, more importantly for the survival of the group, armor. They expect merchants after all: if they take the guard down, the merchants will surely surrender.
Now in round three, if the combat is not going well, the guide surrenders and two goblins are now busy with her: One threatens her with a spear, the other takes her stuff -> two or three actions which do no damage.


Good point, I thought that the guide could be taken by the goblins if they do retreat so that the PC's have to rescue her from the goblins hide out.
I advise against that: If the goblins flee, they should not also take prisoners. It turns the groups first combat victory into a phyrric victory. They are new to the game: let them have a victory at the start.

If you want to give them an incentive to attack the goblin hideout: let them find a raided caravan just half a mile further into the mountains. Lack of wares and too few bodies should give them a clue that there is treasure to find and prisoners to free. Yet if they decide not to go for it, they do not loose their guide.
If you realy want them to attack the hideout: if they reach the capital someone takes note where they came from and asks if they know what happened to the caravan, which never reached the city. This person wants a McGuffin the caravan was transporting. Something worth enough to pay some mercenaries if they get it, but worthless enough so they do not keep it instead, yet uncommon enough to not be easily be replaced. Like an old book.

onlie2005
2017-04-29, 04:38 PM
If you have to add more, add mostly minions. And one that do low damage or set low damage like the kobold minions in Keep on the Shadowfell. That way the party can kill them immediately if they get luck shots. Less spellcasters is preferable too.

Lvl 2 Expert
2017-04-30, 03:22 PM
Regarding the guide, I strongly advise to not make it stronger than the PCs. After all, this is supposed to be the adventure and story of the PCs, and not the story of the guide fighting the goblins while the PCs cheer from the guidelines.

Plus, if the guide is stronger than the PC's, the encounters will have to be build to the guide's strength, increasing the chance of a lucky hit taking out a PC.

You could give the guide some healing potions or something, or maybe some kind of distraction weapon (dart) or spell (dancing lights) or ability (speaking goblin) to take the heat off one of the PC's when they're in need, while not actually contributing much to dropping the goblins. You don't have to reveal any of that until it's necessary. In fact, don't plan on ever revealing it, build the encounter without that stuff in mind, but keep it as a backup.

If you want to pad the numbers of attackers, maybe add animals? What would the goblin equivalent of a dog be? A Badger, a fox, maybe a fierce looking feral cat? Admittedly, they're not really weaker than goblins, but at least they don't get weapons or armor.

The Aboleth
2017-04-30, 03:32 PM
I advise against that: If the goblins flee, they should not also take prisoners. It turns the groups first combat victory into a phyrric victory. They are new to the game: let them have a victory at the start.


I second this. If your players are brand new to the game, this first combat should basically be a tutorial for them; that's not to say you can't make it a bit difficult or challenging for them, but at the end of the day the PCs should come away having with a good grasp of how combat should go from now on AND a genuine feeling of accomplishment at having conquered their first real challenge. Having the guide be taken hostage would diminish that feeling of accomplishment, plus you run the risk of your players feeling like they're being railroaded.

EDIT:

If you want to give them an incentive to attack the goblin hideout: let them find a raided caravan just half a mile further into the mountains. Lack of wares and too few bodies should give them a clue that there is treasure to find and prisoners to free. Yet if they decide not to go for it, they do not loose their guide.

I also second this. The decision to find the goblin hideout should ultimately rest with your players; you can give them clues and incentives that nudge them in that direction, but as a DM you must always prepare for the possibility that your players will still say "F that" and go in a different direction.

If it's essential to your plot that they take on the goblin hideout and the players don't take the bait, then build in some consequences down the line to REALLY push them in that direction; for example, say a couple weeks later the city they're in is running dangerously low on supplies because the goblin raids have intensified, to the point where the players can't reliably buy food or healing potions in the town until the "goblin problem" is taken care of. This is arguably more railroad-y than having the guide be captured at the beginning, but if you've built in some incentives or clues before that point that the players have ignored, you can play it off as a natural consequence of their inaction. It's a fine line, to be sure, but such is the life of a DM.

Honest Tiefling
2017-04-30, 04:58 PM
Thanks, that helps a lot. I haven't thought much into them not using the guide, I was thinking of detailing at the start of the session that they had found a guide and had just started the journey then continue the game on from that as a starting point.

I suggest letting them decide if they have the guide or not, as an introduction to RP. If they accept, she's a helpful sort with navigation, nature and healing skills, perhaps plinking away with a sling/shield combo for the extra AC and the extra damage that is unlikely to overshadow anyone.

I also suggest low-balling it at first. Have them encounter a goblin patrol foraging for food with a smaller number of goblins. This should introduce them to spot/perception/whatever checks to find the patrol before the patrol finds them. The food they are gathering might indicate that they have a larger group. Then they can find animals or lower-ranking goblins digging through the remains of the caravan mentioned earlier.

Use these two initial fights to determine how well the party is working and how tough future encounters should be. Also, it gives them a choice to pursue this side quest or not and an idea of how powerful a goblin is.