How viable is a low strength, low dex paladin with shillelagh ?

[Grizl' Bjorn]

The idea is:

1. Take magic initiate. Pick shillelagh as a cantrip. Pick Charisma as caster stat.
2. Be a paladin using a quarterstaff or club.
3. Now we can dump strength and have dex 10, freeing up more points for everything else.

Thoughts?

[Specter]

You don't get to pick Charisma as your casting stat for Shillelagh, unless you pick it via Warlock's tome or Bard's Magical Secrets.

But if you're willing to take three warlock levels, and also not wear heavy armor, it's quite nice.

[JAL_1138]

Magic initiate's casting stat keys off the class you chose the cantrip from; you don't just pick which stat you use for it. Shillelagh is only on the Druid list. The feat (specific text about what modifier you use for Magic Initiate spells) beats general (spell text's generic "your spellcasting modifier"). You'd just have to bump Wis instead of Str. Unless there's been an errata on it saying otherwise; I'm on a cell phone and can't check.

Take three levels of Warlock for Pact of the Tome and get it as a Cha-based cantrip. Then you only need to get your Str high enough to MC paladin and wear heavy armor (for an AC that's not in the gutter).

EDIT: Shadow Monk'd.

[Foxhound438]

even if you did have some way of starting with charisma based shillelagh, you'd still need either 15 str or 14 dex to have a decent AC.

[LudicSavant]

Not very.

- You need Strength or Dexterity for AC.
- You don't get Charisma as your casting stat.
- You just used up a feat. You don't get a lot.

[CantigThimble]

Hmm, it could work. A 14-15 on the side is much easier to pull off than maxing an attack stat. You would need to take 3 levels of warlock, but that's a common dip regardless.

So maybe something like Half-Elf Warlock 3/Paladin X
Starting Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 17

By level 11 you could have a maxed charisma applying to both melee attacks, eldritch blast, auras and channel divinity. (I assume you'd go devotion with this build) But before that it's not fantastic.

[JAL_1138]

Hmm, it could work. A 14-15 on the side is much easier to pull off than maxing an attack stat. You would need to take 3 levels of warlock, but that's a common dip regardless.

So maybe something like Half-Elf Warlock 3/Paladin X
Starting Stats:
Str: 8
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 17

By level 11 you could have a maxed charisma applying to both melee attacks, eldritch blast, auras and channel divinity. (I assume you'd go devotion with this build) But before that it's not fantastic.

You need Str 13 to MC into Paladin, so you'd need to swap the Dex and Str scores in your stat block unless you want to sink a bunch of ASIs into bumping an 8 to at least a 13.

I can't believe I'm suggesting this, because one-handed quarterstaff + a shield + Polearm Master bugs the living daylights out of me and I refuse to take it on my own PAM builds (out of the firm belief that stick-and-shield should not be categorically superior to sword-and-shield), but...

You might want to take Dueling style, and take PAM at Paladin 4 instead of rushing to max your Cha. Shillelagh lasts a full minute, so your bonus action frees up after the first round to use the PAM bonus action for an extra 1d4+mod attack. You could make three attacks per round after the first round that way, and still have the shield to help your AC.

[CantigThimble]

Oh yeah, good catch on the multiclass. Still possible, but you'd have to start as paladin 1 for heavy armor and you'd only have +4 to hit until level 4, which is fine but not ideal. In that case I'd probably go for paladin 2 then warlock 3 and then straight paladin.

Alternatively, also grab GFB or Booming blade and just go Paladin 3/Warlock X. The paladin heavy build would probably be stronger once you got to level 9+ with the auras but before that more warlock spells would be much better, so it really depends on how high you expect the campaign to go.

[Talionis]

Other option is to quest for a magic item to raise your strength. If you multiclass as paladin you need to have 13 strength but you can get strength high enough to wear heavy armor off a magic item.

Don't forget that Paladin and Bard caster levels stack so MC those two classes also has a ton of synergy. Of course waiting till Bard 6 is a long time to get Shilalegh.

[Grizl' Bjorn]

I guess many DM's would probably allow a charisma cast shillelagh through magic initiate if you asked nicely. "I'm sure they'll publish a UA spirit shaman class at some point- I'm just getting in early- besides if I go with the warlock dip that's actually less balanced- because I'll get eldritch blast, agonising blast and hex, so just let me take shillelagh with charisma casting up front plz plz plz.". but relying on house rules is kind of cheating from an optimising perspective I guess.

I definitely think a quarterstaff yielding oath of the ancients paladin channelling his magic through his staff would be 10/10 aesthetic as heck, which is the main reason I want to make it work rather than pure optimisation.

[Specter]

I guess the takeaway from all this is that Shillelagh from Bard/Warlock lets you keep your Strenght at 15 forever, and just for saving you 2 ASI's I think it's gold.

You can start as a V. Human with ST15, DX8, CO16, IN 8, WI10, CH16 with Resilient CON, then max CHA with two ASI's and still have room for three feats!

[MeeposFire]

even if you did have some way of starting with charisma based shillelagh, you'd still need either 15 str or 14 dex to have a decent AC.

This actually is not correct. You need a 14+dex for light and medium armor but 15 str is not needed for AC. 15 str is needed for full mobility as lower str means you lose speed. As an aside you can essentially ignore the penalty to speed for low strength by taking the mobility feet.

As for multiclassing for cha shillelagh I am not a fan assuming you have to start at a low level. In many cases you have to choose between having bad attack rolls for a decent while or missing out on basic offensive capability for a while (missing extra attack). If you play in a game where you can take long rests often you can more easily get away with not having extra attack or if you make heavy use of something like booming blade. If you start at higher levels then it becomes a lot more bearable.

[Naanomi]

Yeah, you probably can... not sure if it is worth it, really, but it is doable. We have someone with a Bard/Sorcerer/Fighter using Charisma Shillelagh and Gishing it up fairly effectively. I think it was.. Fallen Aasimar 15/8/15/8/10/17; Fighter 1/Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 4/Fighter +1/Sorcerer +8... with a focus on Green-Flame Blade and Elemental Weapon? Which is kind of a mess, so a more simple Bard or Warlock/Paladin should be fine

[Arkhios]

I guess many DM's would probably allow a charisma cast shillelagh through magic initiate if you asked nicely. "I'm sure they'll publish a UA spirit shaman class at some point- I'm just getting in early- besides if I go with the warlock dip that's actually less balanced- because I'll get eldritch blast, agonising blast and hex, so just let me take shillelagh with charisma casting up front plz plz plz.". but relying on house rules is kind of cheating from an optimising perspective I guess.

I definitely think a quarterstaff yielding oath of the ancients paladin channelling his magic through his staff would be 10/10 aesthetic as heck, which is the main reason I want to make it work rather than pure optimisation.

Well, nothing stops you from still using strength with shillelagh attacks. The cantrip only allows you to use Wisdom instead. It doesn't say you *must* use Wisdom.
Shillelagh would still count as magic weapon and deal 1d8 instead of 1d4/1d6, based on either club or quarterstaff.

As per default, Paladin isn't really more MAD than any other class is. The class quite explicitly relies on strength, with its key abilities depending on melee weapon attacks.

You can get very decent paladin with standard array already. I really don't see the problem.

Few examples:
Standard human:
Str 16, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15

Variant human:
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14 (+bonus feat!)

Half-elf:
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16

Half-orc:
Str 17, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14

Dragonborn:
Str 16, Dex 8, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16

You see, paladin only "needs" two abilities, Strength to attack well, and to wear the heaviest of armor, and Charisma, for your spells and eventually to mitigate your deficiencies in other saves, such as Dexterity. Also, everyone needs Constitution (not just paladins), so you might want to invest a bit better on that, before looking at the other stats.

If you absolutely want to prioritize Dexterity over Strength, for example, any problems that brings to your character's progression is your own fault, not the paladin's fault. You made that choice, not the class you chose.

However, to answer your initial question, low str, low dex paladin with shillelagh is still quite doable, if you can live with the idea that you probably can't (or don't want to) multiclass.

Point-buy
Variant Human (+1 wis, +1 cha) with Magic Initiate (Druid=wis!)
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 16

Stick to wearing either ring mail (no str req. for AC 14) and shield, or eventually better medium armor, Half-plate and shield. Obviously taking Defense Fighting Style.

Your speed won't suffer, and you'll still have decent AC (16-17) and melee potential (prof+3/1d8+3 at minimum). And your wisdom saves will be(-come) tremendously high for a paladin.

In fact, I would try to play such a character if I had the chance :o

[Hrugner]

The easiest way, barring a DM that allows a shillelagh from charisma somehow, would be to grab a level of hexblade warlock. It becomes silly to stick with the staff at that point though.

[Corran]

I really dont like shillelagh on paladins, and that is because of the bonus casting limitations.

Long story short, if you take shillelagh, you will either have to sacrifice PAM or concentration spells (more likely the latter), depending on what type of action your channel divinity uses. Lets break it down:


Channel divinity uses a bonus action
Round 1: Bonus action -> Activate channel divinity
Action -> Cast concentration spell
Round 2: Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Action: Attack
Conclusion: You dont play very differently than most paladins, but you have to give up on PAM, since you see that it wont be until round 3 that you will get to make a full attack sequence.


Channel divinity uses an action
Round 1: Action -> Activate channel divinity
Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Round 2: Action -> Attack
Bonus action -> Butt-end attack
Conclusion: The action economy here is not bad, but you give on concentration spells. If you want to use a bonus action concentration spell, it wont be until the 3rd round that you will get to make a butt-end attack, so you see that once again, it's either losing PAM or losing concentration spells. And if you want to use a concentration spell that uses an action, then it's pretty much no attack at all until the 3rd round of combat.

One may assume that it is the use of channel divinity that causes an issue here, but this is not the case at all. he problem lies completely with shillelagh, that is taking a bonus action and being a spell (meaning we cannot cast a spell at the same round that we use shillelagh).

Lets see the action economy without channel divinity in play:


Round 1: Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Action -> Attack
Round 2: Action -> Attack
Bonus action -> Butt-end attack
Conclusion: We can take PAM, but we have trouble using concentration spells.

Round 1: Action -> Cast concentration spell
Bonus action -> n/a
Round 2: Bonus action : Shillelagh
Action : Attack
Conclusion: We can use concentration spells, but we cannot make good use of PAM and thus it's better to not include it.

Round 1: Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Action -> Attack
Round 2: Bonus action -> Cast bonus action concentration spell
Action -> Attack
Conclusion: Same as above. We can use concentration spells, but cannot make good use of PAM.


Bottom line, the best case scenario for a paladin that uses shillelagh, is to:

1) Pick an oath with a channel divinity that uses an action (so vengeance is out; which is good, since vengeance profits less than the other oaths from a high charisma which will be your main stat).

2) Make a difficult choice: PAM or concentration spells?
a) If you choose PAM (which imo is the better choice), then your best bet is to be an oathbreaker (dreadful aspect, aura of hate), and also pick the dueling fighting style and the sentinel feat, as well as EB and agonizing blast from the warlock. In that case, try to precast concentration spells whenever possible. In this case, it is a good idea to not advance further/ a lot in warlock, as we wont be making good use of higher level warlock concentration spells (perhaps 16/4 is a good enough split, since the focus is not on spells due to our difficulty in utilizing concentration spells).
b) If you choose concentration spells, and thus you dont pick up PAM, choose oath of the crown for spirit guardians (you'll get it at 12 level the earliest though, till then you can rely on bless). Spells like banishment and wrathful smite will be of good use to you too. Again, pick sentinel, but now also pick resilient con (or inspiring leader, or both if vhuman), and from warlock pick up EB and agonizing blast again too.
Note: The fact that the channel divinity of the crown paladin does not depend on charisma is a huge missedd opportunity, so going oathbreaker via the PAM (= no concentration) way is most likely our best bit.
The non-PAM way is not that bad on devotion, since you have your bonus action free to cast sanctuary whenever necessary.

3) Getting access to EB and agonizing blast, means that you can get by with just a 13 STR and reduced speed in heavy armor (since we have a good ranged option). That allows for a better con score.
Having a good ranged option makes the ancients paly look a bit less appealing, since having EB lesses the impact of moonbeam.
Note: Repelling blast is tricky, since both oathbreaker and crown (especially oathbreaker) have channel divinities that work best with the enemies close-by (so pushing them might not always be a good idea).

4) Pick a race that boosts CHA and CON.



TL;DR
The shillelagh paladin is defintely viable, but overall less optimal than a singleclass paladin.

On the plus side, you get a good ranged option which also allows you to start with a better constitution (at the cost of reduced speed ofc). It allows you to invest on 1 or 2 extra feats (depending on the split and on whether you chose to include PAM or not), so that opens up the possibility of picking up inspiring leader or even mounted combatant (to negate your movement penalty and boost your attack bonus with advantage) more easily.

On the minus side, you cannot profit significantly from your higher charisma unless your drop your dpr to very low levels (by missing PAM). You might be less MAD and have slightly better hit points, but your action economy is even more complicated than that of a singleclass paly (which is not that smooth even then). You delay your paladin features and miss access to the capstone, a feat, and to aura improvements(!), for little else than a good ranged option (which comes at the additional cost of either minimizing your dpr or missing on concentration spell options).

I would say that the combination of race: vhuman, oathbreaker15/warlock5 (for 3rd level slots recharging on short rests for aura of vitality and animate dead spamming), feats: PAM, sentinel, +2 CHA *2, inspiring leader, fighting style: dueing, equipment: quarterstaff + shield, with starting stats: STR 13, DEX 10, CON 16, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 16, is the best (or at the very least a very optimal) approach to the shillelagh paladin. Yet, despite some nice tricks, I think it is overall inferior to a pure oathbreaker both as an end build, and during most of play.

[Maxilian]

The easiest way, barring a DM that allows a shillelagh from charisma somehow, would be to grab a level of hexblade warlock. It becomes silly to stick with the staff at that point though.

This. Forget about Shillelagh, if your DM allows UA, just take 1 lvl in Hexblade, that way you can use CHA with your weapon.

[Citan]

The idea is:

1. Take magic initiate. Pick shillelagh as a cantrip. Pick Charisma as caster stat.
2. Be a paladin using a quarterstaff or club.
3. Now we can dump strength and have dex 10, freeing up more points for everything else.

Thoughts?
Hi!
As others said, if your DM allows UA, the best way is 1 level in Warlock with Hexblade.

Otherwise, 3 levels in Warlock will do the trick nicely.

Also, forget about people saying...

1. Having low STR or DEX will make you subpar.
- Paladin profit from high movement as any melee class, but since they tend to be in the core of front line, 20 feet may be enough worst case if you go heavy armor.
- If you go DEX, only 14 is enough to get the most of medium armor, and you can wield a shield to better your AC above 18 which is still very respectable.
- Maxing Aura of protection sooner (because you can max CHA sooner) means overall better saves, including those targeting DEX or STR.
So, having only 13 in STR and 14 in DEX is easily doable and far enough.

2. Shillelagh is bad because of action economy.
- Nothing prevents you from saying to your DM that you have an habit of keeping it active by recasting it frequently, which heightens the chance of it being active when you start a fight (on the downside, it means you could end a fight just 1-2 turns before Shillelagh goes out).
- In a good number of encounters, you know well enough when it will start to get a turn of preparation (like, you are in a dungeon with a closed door, you hear sounds behind, you guess there will be enemies). So it's a non-problem.
- Worst case, you start a fight and you don't have it active, it eats ONLY a bonus action. You can still move and attack.
The only small drawback is that it indeed prevents you from casting a spell as a normal action, which you could want to do (like a Bless, Moonbeam or Haste). But considering a Paladin's best thing tend to be smacking and smiting anyways, the situations where this limitation really irks you won't happen often.

3. You don't need it because Paladin is not MAD
Sorry to those people saying the contrary, but the Paladin does need Charisma nearly as well as attack stat: some of his best features rely on that, along with his number of prepared spells.
Shillelagh considerably reduce the Paladin's MADness.
It means you can instead spend ASIs on feats such as Sentinel, Mage Slayer, Mobile or even Spell Sniper, Polearm Master or Shield Master.

So it really is a very safe bet.
(Of course, Hexblade is plain better because it gives all the advantage of Shillelagh, + choice of weapon. But it's UA).
(And of course, it would strongly advise against any dipping if you think your character has a chance to live up to level 20. Paladin's capstone range from "very good" to "extremely great" depending on Oath).

[Willie the Duck]

So, having only 13 in STR and 14 in DEX is easily doable and far enough.

I don't think it's in dispute that it is doable (original topic is "viable," which is vague). I think the point is that 12 of your starting 27 points (or however you want to do it) detracts significantly from the value of choosing this build.


- Nothing prevents you from saying to your DM that you have an habit of keeping it active by recasting it frequently, which heightens the chance of it being active when you start a fight (on the downside, it means you could end a fight just 1-2 turns before Shillelagh goes out).

There are lots of things that the rules don't prevent, but this hinges quite significantly upon whether your DM will go along with it. We could all argue up and down this point until the cows come home, but if the DM says, "Your character isn't re-upping their shillelagh every minute while they are walking from here to there in case they get ambushed. That's stupid" there would be F-all the OP would have to say about it.


In a good number of encounters, you know well enough when it will start to get a turn of preparation (like, you are in a dungeon with a closed door, you hear sounds behind, you guess there will be enemies). So it's a non-problem.

That is indeed a case where it is a non-problem. Although if you choose not to do this build, it is a free round to cast some other spell, or otherwise prepare for the fight, so there is still an opportunity cost.



Shillelagh considerably reduce the Paladin's MADness.
It means you can instead spend ASIs on feats such as Sentinel, Mage Slayer, Mobile or even Spell Sniper, Polearm Master or Shield Master.

Except that, as you have conceded, it requires a 13+ str, and a 14+ Dex for optimal use, which is not exactly MAD, but certainly not un-MAD.

[Citan]

Except that, as you have conceded, it requires a 13+ str, and a 14+ Dex for optimal use, which is not exactly MAD, but certainly not un-MAD.
Nope. It's not AND, it's OR. You can perfectly bear with heavy armor and less speed.

Furthermore, it's very easy to fill in starting stats with point-buy with Half-Elf and probably other any other race giving +2 in either CHA, DEX or STR (preferably CHA obviously).

For example, you could start with the following array:
13 / 14 / 14 / 10 / 10 / 16 (with +1 STR, +1 DEX, +2 CHA).
No flaws anywhere, top Medium Armor, multiclass available.
You could even dump INT to get a 14 in STR if you intend to get proficient in some STR related skills, although the easiest way would be one level in Rogue for Expertise obviously. :)

And considering that most classes will need DEX anyways for Initiative and/or armor (like, all casters except some Cleric), in addition to Constitution (which is lesser important for a Paladin because not full-caster and Aura of Protection) and casting stat (same as Paladin here), starting with at least 14 in DEX if you choose to go medium armor way is absolutely ordinary for most characters except those totally geared towards brute force.

If you go heavy armor instead, you could also choose to dump DEX to 10 because you don't care about Initiative and/or plan on taking Shield Master later to help against DEX saves, so you can start with 16 in STR. Or keep the previous array because you don't care about loss of speed because you will compensate with tactics and spells.

Otherwise said, by going the "CHA-based weapon attacks" route, you make a Paladin much less MAD without any doubt, putting him between a fullcaster and a pure martial depending on some other things (your trend of using concentration spells or not, your main tactic melee-wise -hit&run or sticky-, your Oath abilities etc).

[Ruslan]

The idea is:

1. Take magic initiate. Pick shillelagh as a cantrip. Pick Charisma as caster stat.
2. Be a paladin using a quarterstaff or club.
3. Now we can dump strength and have dex 10, freeing up more points for everything else.

Thoughts?
No such thing. If you pick your Magic Initiate spell/cantrips from the Druid list, Wisdom is your casting stat for those.

Consider a VHuman Fighter, perhaps?

Str 8 Dex 10 Con 15+1 Int 8 Wis 17+1 Cha 8

That's just 26 point buy, and you have one 18 and one 16 on level 1. Good HP, good attack & damage stats. With heavy armor, you don't care much about the low dex (but will have to take the movement penalty). Pack up on wisdom-based skills (Perception, Insight, Animal Handling, Survival), and you can make a pretty good contribution outside of combat too.

Your second cantrip should be Thorn Whip (to cover up for the weakness in ranged combat and low speed), and your 1st level spell can be Entangle or Faerie Fire. Goodberry if the party is short of a healer.

[CantigThimble]

No such thing. If you pick your Magic Initiate spell/cantrips from the Druid list, Wisdom is your casting stat for those.

Consider a VHuman Fighter, perhaps?

Str 8 Dex 10 Con 15+1 Int 8 Wis 17+1 Cha 8

That's just 26 point buy, and you have one 18 and one 16 on level 1. Good HP, good attack & damage stats. With heavy armor, you don't care much about the low dex (but will have to take the movement penalty). Pack up on wisdom-based skills (Perception, Insight, Animal Handling, Survival), and you can make a pretty good contribution outside of combat too.

Your second cantrip should be Thorn Whip (to cover up for the weakness in ranged combat and low speed), and your 1st level spell can be Entangle or Faerie Fire. Goodberry if the party is short of a healer.

How are you getting a 17 with point buy?

[Ruslan]

Like this. (http://1d8.blogspot.com/2014/04/point-buy-calculator-for-d-next-5e.html)

[CantigThimble]

Like this. (http://1d8.blogspot.com/2014/04/point-buy-calculator-for-d-next-5e.html)

So homebrew then.

This build (like most SAD builds) gets a lot better if you use rolling or another method that can get you at least 1 high initial score. With a single starting 18 it can outpace other builds very quickly, rather than needing to wait until mid levels to really shine.

[djreynolds]

You know what, yes it is viable.

Just max out wis and charisma, so what if you dex and str are low.

Grab shillelagh from druid with magic initiate and pump up wis and charisma and work out a good backstory as to why you have a low strength and dexterity such as a disease

Perhaps you can't even use a shield because of a deformity and your "strength" comes from your faith.

Crappy AC, perhaps you only wear leather armor or studded, so? Oh well. Maybe you had to take the family plate armor and have a blacksmith rip it down to half-plate

Now this is starting to sound like a fun PC

[Jodokai]

Round 1: Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Action -> Attack
Round 2: Action -> Attack
Bonus action -> Butt-end attack
Conclusion: We can take PAM, but we have trouble using concentration spells.

Round 1: Action -> Cast concentration spell
Bonus action -> n/a
Round 2: Bonus action : Shillelagh
Action : Attack
Conclusion: We can use concentration spells, but we cannot make good use of PAM and thus it's better to not include it.

Round 1: Bonus action -> Cast shillelagh
Action -> Attack
Round 2: Bonus action -> Cast bonus action concentration spell
Action -> Attack
Conclusion: Same as above. We can use concentration spells, but cannot make good use of PAM.
What you're missing here is the Opportunity Attacks PAM gives you, and you're also completely negating what happens if there's more than one monster.
Paladin:
Round 1 Bonus Action: Shillelagh
Round 1 Action: Ready action to pummel bad guy when in range

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Move: Moves up to Paladin..

Paladin:
Gets an Opportunity Attack from PAM
Readied Action goes off, pummels bad guy

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Action: Attacks Paladin

Paladin Round 2: Either finishes off the bad guy with two attacks, or casts a concentration spell, or makes two attacks on a different monster

When you can't cast concentration spells because you're making 4 attacks per round (Attack, Extra Attack, Bonus from PAM, Opportunity Attack from PAM) is that bug or a feature?

[MeeposFire]

What you're missing here is the Opportunity Attacks PAM gives you, and you're also completely negating what happens if there's more than one monster.
Paladin:
Round 1 Bonus Action: Shillelagh
Round 1 Action: Ready action to pummel bad guy when in range

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Move: Moves up to Paladin..

Paladin:
Gets an Opportunity Attack from PAM
Readied Action goes off, pummels bad guy

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Action: Attacks Paladin

Paladin Round 2: Either finishes off the bad guy with two attacks, or casts a concentration spell, or makes two attacks on a different monster

When you can't cast concentration spells because you're making 4 attacks per round (Attack, Extra Attack, Bonus from PAM, Opportunity Attack from PAM) is that bug or a feature?

That does not work. A readied action uses up your reaction which you are already using for PAM so you only get one attack there. Further I am not seeing how shillelagh is being used well here. It is costing you a feat (or something else to get the spell), a bonus action, and forcing you to use a weaker weapon for something you could already do as a str paladin. If you went standard then you could get PAM earlier rather than having to pick up magic initiate first. That spell is not giving you anything you did not already have except using wisdom as an attack stat which on a paladin is not that helpful.

[Jodokai]

That does not work. A readied action uses up your reaction which you are already using for PAM so you only get one attack there. Further I am not seeing how shillelagh is being used well here. It is costing you a feat (or something else to get the spell), a bonus action, and forcing you to use a weaker weapon for something you could already do as a str paladin. If you went standard then you could get PAM earlier rather than having to pick up magic initiate first. That spell is not giving you anything you did not already have except using wisdom as an attack stat which on a paladin is not that helpful.
Whoops forgot about that. I agree it's not great, and there are better options out there. Although you do gain a lot of utility with 3 levels of Warlock.

[MeeposFire]

Whoops forgot about that. I agree it's not great, and there are better options out there. Although you do gain a lot of utility with 3 levels of Warlock.

You do and if you take it mostly for versatility then that is great. The problem I find is taking warlock specifically to get shillelagh since every way I have seen involves delaying important features so long that it would not be fun to me unless I started out a higher level.

[Corran]

What you're missing here is the Opportunity Attacks PAM gives you, and you're also completely negating what happens if there's more than one monster.
(...)
When you can't cast concentration spells because you're making 4 attacks per round (Attack, Extra Attack, Bonus from PAM, Opportunity Attack from PAM) is that bug or a feature?
It's not that you cannot cast concentration spells because you are making a lot of attacks. You cannot cast concentration spells because you have incorporated shillelagh into your action economy.

Is that worth it? I say no, but made sure to present the shillelagh paladin build I considered the most optimal (though it was a rushed effort and perhaps someone can do it better). The comparison is not just shillelagh vs concentration spells, it is a broader one, but I still dont think it is really worth it. The biggest positive imo for a shillelagh paladin, is that along the way they will grab a good ranged option (EB, possibly along with the agonizing blast invocation).

And if you are planning for a PAM build, then shillelagh is using one of those bonus action attacks, so that is opportunity cost right there. In order to minimize that opportunity cost, you need a good channel divinity that uses an action (best one: dreadful aspect, and it profits from the high charisma you will prioritize since it's your main stat -either way it is for an oathbreaker imo).

But in combats when the paladin is NOT using his channel divinity, then the trade of shillelaugh for concentration becomes even more pronounced.

Also, concentration is usually worth it, you get these spells for a reason (to bring you up to balance with the rest of the classes; even the vengeance paly who has the potential to hit really hard and with many attacks, should use concentration spells like bless and haste). The one case of paladin I could see having trouble using concentration is the oathbreaker when he is using dreadful aspect, in which case he should confine himself to bonus action concentration spells, so this is why I consider this oath the most appropriate basis for a shillelagh build (but when he is not using dreadful aspect, he can use whatever concentration is more appropriate, regardless of its action economy, so shillelagh opportunity cost really comes into play in these occasions).



Paladin:
Round 1 Bonus Action: Shillelagh
Round 1 Action: Ready action to pummel bad guy when in range

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Move: Moves up to Paladin..

Paladin:
Gets an Opportunity Attack from PAM
Readied Action goes off, pummels bad guy

Bad Guy:
Round 1 Action: Attacks Paladin

Paladin Round 2: Either finishes off the bad guy with two attacks, or casts a concentration spell, or makes two attacks on a different monster
Readied actions use up your reaction, so they dont pair well with PAM (or sentinel, or soul of vengeance). But the shillelaugh paly does not even need to use a ready action if he is not within melee range, he has EB (probably along with agonizing blast). The reaction attacks from PAM are what they are, but the true value of PAM from a paladin comes from utilizing your bonus action for one extra attack on top of which IDS applies (and aura of hate if oathbreaker), and perhaps even smiting (if you are in desperate need for nova). Also, from having sentinel, but that's another story entirely. Scratch that... quarterstuff... though sentinel is still a good feat (the combo does not work that great for the shillelagh paly though).

PAM is good, yes, and it played its role in me choosing it over concentration spells when thinking of the optimal shillelagh paly, but that does not change in any way how shillelagh complicates your action economy to the point that it will limit your options (in regard to spellcasting).

[Asmotherion]

All the Paladins I made so far worked like this with the exception of at least a resonable investment in Dex.

To be clear, I never made a pure Paladin, only multiclass ones.

The way I go about it is Sorcerer 1/Warlock 3 (for Cha Shillelagh)/Sorcerer 2/ Paladin 7 (ancients or vengence)/ Sorcerer 9 He uses a Shield and a Quorterstaff (to apply PAM).

He is effectivelly a 3/4 caster in spell slot progression (he has up to level 7 spell slots), and has up to level 5 spell slots, which makes him a respectable caster. with Dragonic bloodline, he has a base AC of 13+Dex (which is the only reason I invest a bit in Dex to grant him at least a +2 bonus) for a total of 17 AC, which is not half bad, considering he has access to Shield and other self buffing spells like Mirror Image and Blink.

He is also a perfect Eldritch Blaster, with Agonising and Repelling Blast (I like repelling blast for control), as well as Quicken Spell to cast an Eldritch Barrage of up to 8 blasts.

The downside is it comes online at level 13, but it's a good build for a high level campain. It also works well in lower levels as a pure Eldritch Blaster, with a Pal2 dip at levels 6-7 for shield prof and DS, and taking the rest of the Pal levels afterwards.

Some extra Dip options (replacing the 7th Pal Level and some Sorcerer levels after that, depending on how much Spellcasting you're willing to loose), are Rogue 2 for cunning action (either to chace someone or to run away from), Fighter 2 for a better nova round with action surge (16 hexed eldritch blasts can be the end of a Boss Fight) or Barbarian 1 if you have a very high Con, to apply to your AC.

[Quoxis]

Some gentle reminders:
- you don't have to have 15 str to equip plate mail, if you don't fulfill that requirement you can wear it, it'll just slow you down by 10ft per round (unless you're a dwarf, they've got a racial feature preventing that)
- a paladin only needs 13 str if they want to multiclass, if they stay a pure pally they can have a str score as low as they want
- shillellagh given by magic initiate uses wis as its stat, but nothing hinders you from dumping everything but wis to pump all resources into it

In theory you can build a character with 16 in both wis and con with a hill dwarf using either point buy or standard array, put the rest in cha or whatever you want.
You now have a character with a +3 mod in the only stats that'll matter in combat after taking the feat. Not exactly optimized, but possible.

[djreynolds]

Some gentle reminders:
- you don't have to have 15 str to equip plate mail, if you don't fulfill that requirement you can wear it, it'll just slow you down by 10ft per round (unless you're a dwarf, they've got a racial feature preventing that)
- a paladin only needs 13 str if they want to multiclass, if they stay a pure pally they can have a str score as low as they want
- shillellagh given by magic initiate uses wis as its stat, but nothing hinders you from dumping everything but wis to pump all resources into it

In theory you can build a character with 16 in both wis and con with a hill dwarf using either point buy or standard array, put the rest in cha or whatever you want.
You now have a character with a +3 mod in the only stats that'll matter in combat after taking the feat. Not exactly optimized, but possible.

100% and a dwarf loses no speed with heavy armor as well.

It is viable, and because of strength magic item cheese, it might be preferable. Seriously, why spend the resources maxing strength when gauntlets give you a 19

[Quoxis]

100% and a dwarf loses no speed with heavy armor as well.

It is viable, and because of strength magic item cheese, it might be preferable. Seriously, why spend the resources maxing strength when gauntlets give you a 19

Still have to come across them though. Not to mention acquiring them And convincing your party you need them most.

[djreynolds]

Still have to come across them though. Not to mention acquiring them And convincing your party you need them most.

Very true, but because of their existence (which I don't like these magic items) you can leave strength at least respectable.

But a single classed paladin can effectively get by with magic initiate and shillelagh.

I think a low dex/low str paladin would be very fun to role-play and write up a good back story for.

[Theodoxus]

As a DM, I'd be more inclined to allow a paladin (especially an Ancients paladin) to swap Cha for Wis as their casting stat over allowing Magic Initiate to use the casting stat of the players choice.

If nothing else changed (so proficient saves, aura of protection, etc) were still based on Cha, I'd have no issue at all allowing the player to switch to Wis. If it makes a shillelagh build more viable, meh - it's not OP in the slightest, and arguably still less optimal than a Strength build using a glaive.

The only thing I'd disallow is the bonus action PAM attack if they're using a staff and shield build. Still grants them the OA on arrival...

[Quoxis]

As a DM, I'd be more inclined to allow a paladin (especially an Ancients paladin) to swap Cha for Wis as their casting stat over allowing Magic Initiate to use the casting stat of the players choice.
[...]
The only thing I'd disallow is the bonus action PAM attack if they're using a staff and shield build. Still grants them the OA on arrival...

Breaking RAW like there's no tomorrow! :^D