Simultaneous actions, is there a way? (3.5)

[flappeercraft]

So is there a way to make 2 characters act simultaneously? So basically for all purposes they can move at the same time and attack at the same time or at least something similar. Is there a way?

[idesofmarch]

Two wizards throwing down celerity one after the other is pretty simultaneous. Also how about the dvati race?

[flappeercraft]

The problem is that Dvati don't use separate actions, they both have 1 set of actions which basically removes the useful part of having simultaneous actions. As for the celerity that could work.

[Remuko]

If you go by fluff all actions per round happen in the same 6 seconds, so all players are acting simultaneously, its just broken into "turns" for easy of gameplay.

[Zanos]

For what purpose do the actions have to be simultaneous?

[flappeercraft]

For what purpose do the actions have to be simultaneous?

Charge moxed with the backstab feat. IIRC its from Dragon magazine 340

[shaikujin]

Not sure if it helps, but a couple of the Teamwork benefits in PHB2 (like massed charge) work by having each team member delay their action until the initiative count of the slowest member, then act simultaneously.

[Crake]

I think there are some white raven maneuvers in ToB that let you all charge at the same time.

It probably doesn't help at all, but in an iaijutsu duel, unlike a normal initiative tie where highest modifier goes first (or roll off in the event the modifiers are the same) both characters act at the same time and strike.

[Kayblis]

Charge moxed with the backstab feat. IIRC its from Dragon magazine 340

There actually is a way, a simple consequence of how turns work. You can delay your own turn to act after your normal turn order. Two allied characters that delay to be on the same initiative count can act together if both agree, and both their actions are resolved simultaneously(that goes for AoOs and everything, an enemy with only one AoO per turn can choose which one he attacks). So, if you have two charges occuring simultaneously and you two end up in flanking position, both attacks can benefit from it.

You can also prepare actions based on a trigger for simplicity, btw. You'll act immediately before the defined trigger, so you can move into position and wait for "when my friend charges" or "before the mage casts a spell".

[Aristocracy]

There actually is a way, a simple consequence of how turns work. You can delay your own turn to act after your normal turn order. Two allied characters that delay to be on the same initiative count can act together if both agree, and both their actions are resolved simultaneously(that goes for AoOs and everything, an enemy with only one AoO per turn can choose which one he attacks). So, if you have two charges occuring simultaneously and you two end up in flanking position, both attacks can benefit from it.

You can also prepare actions based on a trigger for simplicity, btw. You'll act immediately before the defined trigger, so you can move into position and wait for "when my friend charges" or "before the mage casts a spell".

Yup! This exactly.

It's important to note that you can only ready a standard action, but that should be sufficient for what you are trying to achieve as a partial charge only requires a standard. Rogues benefit particularly well as they often get to act early in the init count, but don't necessarily have anyone to flank with yet.

"I ready a partial charge for whenever one of my allies closes to melee distance with the enemy." Also note that when you do ready an action both the action and the trigger have to be specific. No take-backsys.

For instance... whenever I'm about to charge through a doorway and I know the enemy knows I'm coming I figure they probably have ready actions to open a can of whoop-ask on "The first thing to come through the door." Therefor, I generally like to mage-hand an old cloak or something through the doorway and watch it get torn to shreds as my companions charge in safely behind it.

[Allanimal]

Yup! This exactly.

It's important to note that you can only ready a standard action, but that should be sufficient for what you are trying to achieve as a partial charge only requires a standard.

A partial charge is only available when you can only take one action in a turn, so normally you can't ready it.


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

If you ready an action without using your move action, you aren't restricted, you just chose to skip it.

[Aristocracy]

A partial charge is only available when you can only take one action in a turn, so normally you can't ready it.



If you ready an action without using your move action, you aren't restricted, you just chose to skip it.

Hrrmmmm...

That's interesting Allanimal. I'm not sure I concur though.

Readying and action is a full round action so you could not move and ready all in the same turn. Once you choose to ready an action you are then restricted to only a standard or a move action for that turn. Therefor, I would argue, that a partial charge as a readied action is well within RAW.

[Zombimode]

Hrrmmmm...

That's interesting Allanimal. I'm not sure I concur though.

Readying and action is a full round action so you could not move and ready all in the same turn. Once you choose to ready an action you are then restricted to only a standard or a move action for that turn. Therefor, I would argue, that a partial charge as a readied action is well within RAW.

You are not restricted. Restricted != not being able to.

[flappeercraft]

Hrrmmmm...

That's interesting Allanimal. I'm not sure I concur though.

Readying and action is a full round action so you could not move and ready all in the same turn. Once you choose to ready an action you are then restricted to only a standard or a move action for that turn. Therefor, I would argue, that a partial charge as a readied action is well within RAW.

You actually are restricted not to when you have only a standard action but when you are affected by an effect that causes you to have partial actions such as the staggered condition or the Slow spell

[Aristocracy]

You are not restricted. Restricted != not being able to.

I'm not sure I get your point... Once you ready an action you are "not being able to" do a full round action. Your actions are ~restricted~ to a standard or a movement action.


You actually are restricted not to when you have only a standard action but when you are affected by an effect that causes you to have partial actions such as the staggered condition or the Slow spell

Now that IS interesting. Can you link to the appropriate rule that specifies this?

As I've previously understood the argument is that under the RAW for charge it states

"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."

As previously stated one cannot ready a full round action- so charging is a no-go for readying

Unless you read further to where it states "If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

Obviously, this is not a full round action-- it is a movement or a standard-- and a different attack option from the full-round version of charge. As a Standard or Movement action can be readied this different action would qualify.

Under this language what you cannot do is ready a charge that would have you move a distance greater than your base movement (No double movement), but as long as you don't double move the action does not take a full round.

It's all quite a ball of yarn to unravel, but it all makes sense.

[ijon]

readying an action doesn't restrict your actions on your turn at all; it's a standard action to perform a standard/move/free action when a condition is met

since you aren't actually restricted to taking either a move or standard action on your turn, you can't ready a partial charge

[Aristocracy]

readying an action doesn't restrict your actions on your turn at all; it's a standard action to perform a standard/move/free action when a condition is met

since you aren't actually restricted to taking either a move or standard action on your turn, you can't ready a partial charge

Sure it does. Readying an action changes your initiative count... so when your initiative comes around e.g. it's your turn you are no longer able to take a full round action. It is your turn and you are restricted to a movement or a standard.

[Bronk]

Charge moxed with the backstab feat. IIRC its from Dragon magazine 340

This wouldn't help with the charge, but simultaneous attacks can be had using the 'mass snake's swiftness' spell.

[ijon]

readying actions doesn't work like that at all!


The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

it's a standard action to ready.


You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it.

you choose the action as part of readying - you are not eligible for a partial charge at that time (unless your actions are restricted by, say, being staggered), so you can't choose a partial charge.


Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.

you don't get a restricted turn to do the readied action - you just do the readied action in the middle of someone else's turn.


For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

this is when you could do the partial charge - after the turn that the readied action was triggered. so you could move as a readied move action, then partial charge on your next (restricted) turn.

but you can't do a partial charge as a readied action, unless your actions were restricted when readying the action. which is weird, but RAW is weird.

edit: actually I guess you could choose a partial charge as a readied move action, but if you don't actually have the "only standard OR move action on your turn" restriction when the readied action fires, it'd do nothing (and again, you aren't actually in your restricted turn when the readied action fires, so that doesn't work)

[Aristocracy]

EDIT: Ninja's by ijon

Well... fudge guys... I think I'm wrong.

Firstly, readying an action is a standard action rather than the full round action I had previously insisted it was.

Secondly the language for readying an action supports ijon's claim. It reads:

"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."

So.. umm, I guess a readied action takes place in some nether space of time where it is both not your turn and yet by all appearances you seem to be taking a turn.

Combined with the language in charge that states you need to be restricted to a standard or a move "On your turn." is a pretty open and shut argument that you cannot ready any type of charge action.

So while I think it makes absolutely no sense why it should be this way, I fully admit that by RAW I am totally mistaken. Sorry I fought you all so hard on it.

[Zombimode]

There is another argument why readying a partial charge is not an intended option: a Charge Action Limits you movement to one direction and come with additional requirements (like unable to Charge accross difficult terrain). And this is important! The requirements and Limits on the charge action are part of the combat "metagame" for the lack of a better word: cleverly using the terrain to prevent getting charged, and positioning to be able to charge. Thus anything thats lessens the requirements is an Advantage, only to be granted be Class Features etc.
Being able to Move and then Charge as a Standart Action, which you can easily set up with a Readied Partial Charge, obviously makes Charges possible that otherwise wouldnt. Letting everbody do this would influence the combat metagame and would devalue abilities that lessens the Charge requirements (like Arcrobatic Charge).


You said that, while you see why Reading a Partial Charge is not possible by the rules, you regard it as nonsensial. I hope the above Point explains why not being able to do so is both intended and a good thing for the game.

[Aristocracy]

Yes... it all made better sense when I was convinced that readying was a full round action.

I grew up on 3.0... I guess some rules are just hard to unlearn.

[daremetoidareyo]

Heroes of battle has a teamwork benefit called heavy cavalry the speaks of delaying initiative counts on purpose to work simultaneously.

[flappeercraft]

Heroes of battle has a teamwork benefit called heavy cavalry the speaks of delaying initiative counts on purpose to work simultaneously.

Ill check that out