Need help with an up and coming God game

[ghostfreak24]

So a friend of mines who has been dming my friends and I for a bit has posed a God game for me and my mine to play. The rules are simple. Read up on Dieties and Demigods to get familiar with how things work and build using an 8/37 system. Our characters are allowed outsider hit die and their base saves but we are only allowed one character level (before we had no character level but due to my friends managing to survive some bs and lies, he threw us that boon due to the circumstance and roleplay. I honestly do not know where to start so any and all advice would be deeply appreciated from experienced players/crafters alike. My original idea was to start out as a cleric, but the huge gap in caster levels and other uncomfortable factors makes it such an unappealing idea. I'm not used to being so.....helpless. Even for a Rank 0 hero spirit.


Because compared to other dieties in the books their numbers just speak for themselves. Not to mention I haven't decided what portfolio to gun for. Originally I wanted battle but to many other people want that so I just dropped it. I expect there to be alot of backstabbing and game of thrones esque dealings to be going on in this game. My dm has allowed all materials except Tome of Battle. I would greatly appreciate the help, advice and bright ideas I am sure everyone else has bubbling beneath the surface.


Deeply appreciated
Ghostfreak24

[Epic Legand]

A god campaign sounds fun, BUT I hope you all figure out some base rules to use before hand. If I understand, your looking at Lv1 charecters, plus deity Lv 0 ....? Plus some good stats? You feel the game will revolve around Player vs Player? Then build for that. Go after a portfolio that will allow you to act with out a huge backlash. I assume it will be influenced with worshiper count? If so build a Chr based build, Maybe a level of Marshal ( Chr+Chr to all chr skills?). I am unclear by what you mean by outsider HD?

[ghostfreak24]

A god campaign sounds fun, BUT I hope you all figure out some base rules to use before hand. If I understand, your looking at Lv1 charecters, plus deity Lv 0 ....? Plus some good stats? You feel the game will revolve around Player vs Player? Then build for that. Go after a portfolio that will allow you to act with out a huge backlash. I assume it will be influenced with worshiper count? If so build a Chr based build, Maybe a level of Marshal ( Chr+Chr to all chr skills?). I am unclear by what you mean by outsider HD?


Our Bab is 20 and our base saves are 12. I feel it will be way more than just player vs player. Just looking to cover my bases.

[shaikujin]

What's 8/37? Divine Rank 8 with 37 Hit Dice (ie Epic level character)?

Get the salient abilities Alter Reality (for free wish, make effects permanent etc).

Or if you are more cheese tolerant, Divine Fire Mastery (use it to duplicate any spell with the fire subtype).

Then research an Epic Spell of wish using the Shadow seed, remember to add a seed with the fire subtype. To bring down the DC, add mitigation factors to extend the casting time.

Use Divine Fire Mastery to emulate the Epic Wish as a standard action.

[ghostfreak24]

What's 8/37? Divine Rank 8 with 37 Hit Dice (ie Epic level character)?

Get the salient abilities Alter Reality (for free wish, make effects permanent etc).

Or if you are more cheese tolerant, Divine Fire Mastery (use it to duplicate any spell with the fire subtype).

Then research an Epic Spell of wish using the Shadow seed, remember to add a seed with the fire subtype. To bring down the DC, add mitigation factors to extend the casting time.

Use Divine Fire Mastery to emulate the Epic Wish as a standard action.

Basically 8/37 means that all of our scores; str, dex, con, int, wis, and cha starts out as 8. Then we use our 37 points to put them in whatever stat we feel we should put them in. Now note that because we have 20 levels of outsider, we have no character levels yet, except for the 1 he awarded us already. That's all we have. Just one character level. Everyone is divine rank 0. Levels will be easy to get but divine rank will be extremely hard, hence why I posed the question to the thread because I know that there are people here who can think way way way way way ahead if put in the same position as me. I originally wanted to be a cleric, but in doing so I would only have a caster level of one. An only one because our outsider hit die does not count towards out caster levels. So I wanted to know if someone was to build a character under these conditions, knowing that they will fight epic level stuff though at the same time not considered epic. Until character level 21, how would you do it? You have nine feats in total and 37 points to spread across your scores. Also what portfolio would you pick and why?

[shaikujin]

Ahh, the 8/37 refers to point buy for stats, right.
Are the 20 Outsider HD just generic HD?

Can you trade them for say, a 20 HD Angel?

Or a monster race with 20 HD, but just have the aberration/monstrous humanoid/undead/construct types changed to Outsider.

Or are you only getting the default 20 d8 HD, full BAB, 3 good saves/lvl, 8 int/lvl for those HD?

If it's the latter, first obvious things to look at are
1) You qualify for a lot of PRCs out of the box
2) Find abilities that scale with HD
3) You also qualify for Epic feats (20 Outsider HD + 1 Class HD means you are an ECL 21 HD character and is therefore Epic)

What about gestalt options where you can combine each outsider HD with a class?

Templates and LA buyoff allowed?

Bloodlines allowed?

How cheese tolerant is your table?
Would something like a elf generalist domain wizard be allowed? (TO build that gets level 9 spell slots at level 1)

Or early epic destinies (starting at ECL 12)?
http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428

[shaikujin]

WBL is for an ECL 21 character right?

[ghostfreak24]

Ahh, the 8/37 refers to point buy for stats, right.
Are the 20 Outsider HD just generic HD?

Can you trade them for say, a 20 HD Angel?

Or a monster race with 20 HD, but just have the aberration/monstrous humanoid/undead/construct types changed to Outsider.

Or are you only getting the default 20 d8 HD, full BAB, 3 good saves/lvl, 8 int/lvl for those HD?

If it's the latter, first obvious things to look at are
1) You qualify for a lot of PRCs out of the box
2) Find abilities that scale with HD
3) You also qualify for Epic feats (20 Outsider HD + 1 Class HD means you are an ECL 21 HD character and is therefore Epic)

What about gestalt options where you can combine each outsider HD with a class?

Templates and LA buyoff allowed?

Bloodlines allowed?

How cheese tolerant is your table?
Would something like a elf generalist domain wizard be allowed? (TO build that gets level 9 spell slots at level 1)

Or early epic destinies (starting at ECL 12)?
http://web.archive.org/web/20100916093852/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428



We get no wealth. No we can't trade the hit die for anything else, he was very firm on that since we are all considered quasi dieties/ heroic spirits. Though under such conditions I can understand if our stats look so...underwhelming. He says we cannot take epic feats because we need 21 character levels and our outsider hit die does not count towards that. He is trying to make the game as difficult but as challenging as possible. Our races don't matter as its just flavor/fluff and we don't get the benefits for being that particular race. An in terms of cheese? Hmmm. Templates no. Bloodlines yes. Gestalt yes, though I am unfamiliar with the rules of gestalt and I did not know 3.5 even had epic destinies.


The only thing he banned was tome of battle and allowed everything else. His words were and I quote "Do your worst." So long as its by the books then its alright. Our first encounter was against 8 solars that did not say anything before they attacked us for interacting with the colossus it was guarding/ accompanying. The only thing that saved us was the anti-magic the creature was emanating so that the slay living arrows didn't outright kill us had we failed the save and that they kept power attacking; giving up 20. Some of us did manage to disarm them of their swords so some of us have +5 dancing greatswords. But before we were able to do the same to the bows we were blasted off the rock due to plot and ended up in a roman like arena. A party member, who seeks the portfolio for battle dusted himself off and shouted. "Bring out the next challenger!" An our opponent ended up being a terrasque. Again the reason we survived that encounter as well was because the goddess of this realm who was overlooking everything and who has the divine rank of a lesser diety btw, felt we put on a decent show for her with our struggling to live. Oh, and she killed a player character because of his lack of respect (which was a firm warning by the dm that gods are extremely petty and unless you come correct, you will be squashed. An to be the fair the player in question did bad mouth her, so yea.) So yea, his game is vicious to the extreme and I know it will only get worst from here on out. So could really use the help and advice from the voices of the experienced.

[Twurps]

You say gaining divine ranks is going to be difficult. That sounds like good news to me, as difficult =/= impossible.
Did the DM state how this would work? If gaining followers works: Building a charisma based character works best, and I'd have to second the marshal dip for Cha to cha skills.
(remember deities gain their CHA modifier as a deflection bonus to AC too)

After that. is prestige paladin an option? Smite goodness, Cha to saves, paladin spells and a turning pool all sound nice. (if used to progress cleric casting, use an ACF to get 2 seperate turning pools. It doesn't have to be for DMM persist, you can use it to power any number of things, such as healing devotion. (which scales with your level, so it's pretty nice at lvl20: Fast healing 5 for a minute)

Now that we've touched the can of worms:
At what point do you get the class level? You've played already, yet have 9 free feats, so the build is completely open? If you can start with the class level: cloistered cleric, take DMM persist and all its prereq's (extend spell through planning domain if you must, but it doesn't matter al that much, so pick a domain that will help you reach your goals instead.), fill the remainder of your feats with extra turning, and persist a good number of lvl 1 spells. (and even more if you can can get prestige paladin with an extra pool added at lvl2)

You say cleric lvl 1 is weak, but on a lvl21 build, there's not much 1 level of any class is going to do, and no class is as frontloaded as cloistered cleric.

If you get the class level AFTER the 20 outsider levels, the DMM trick isn't that feasible, but you do get a lot of skill points, so you could go UR-priest right from the start. (or Apostle of peace, but vow of poverty on an epic build seems a waste).

I'm a bit confused about the 'gestalt is allowed'. either you play gestalt, or you don't in my experience, but YMMV.
If gestalt: combine the level in marshal with the cleric/ur priest suggestions above. Also: do you get to Gestalt the outsider levels as well?

[ghostfreak24]

You say gaining divine ranks is going to be difficult. That sounds like good news to me, as difficult =/= impossible.
Did the DM state how this would work? If gaining followers works: Building a charisma based character works best, and I'd have to second the marshal dip for Cha to cha skills.
(remember deities gain their CHA modifier as a deflection bonus to AC too)

After that. is prestige paladin an option? Smite goodness, Cha to saves, paladin spells and a turning pool all sound nice. (if used to progress cleric casting, use an ACF to get 2 seperate turning pools. It doesn't have to be for DMM persist, you can use it to power any number of things, such as healing devotion. (which scales with your level, so it's pretty nice at lvl20: Fast healing 5 for a minute)

Now that we've touched the can of worms:
At what point do you get the class level? You've played already, yet have 9 free feats, so the build is completely open? If you can start with the class level: cloistered cleric, take DMM persist and all its prereq's (extend spell through planning domain if you must, but it doesn't matter al that much, so pick a domain that will help you reach your goals instead.), fill the remainder of your feats with extra turning, and persist a good number of lvl 1 spells. (and even more if you can can get prestige paladin with an extra pool added at lvl2)

You say cleric lvl 1 is weak, but on a lvl21 build, there's not much 1 level of any class is going to do, and no class is as frontloaded as cloistered cleric.

If you get the class level AFTER the 20 outsider levels, the DMM trick isn't that feasible, but you do get a lot of skill points, so you could go UR-priest right from the start. (or Apostle of peace, but vow of poverty on an epic build seems a waste).

I'm a bit confused about the 'gestalt is allowed'. either you play gestalt, or you don't in my experience, but YMMV.
If gestalt: combine the level in marshal with the cleric/ur priest suggestions above. Also: do you get to Gestalt the outsider levels as well?

We got the class lv after the outsider hit die and surviving the encounters. The dm gave us the open feats because of our 20 outsider hit die for the odd normal progression (i.e. 1,3,6,9,12,15,18, and because we are character lv 1, we also got that feat as well.) An because anything can happen in game, it only makes sense that we can change feats to better suit our individual characters and I was the only one who took flaws or even asked him about it in private and gave me a crooked grin to that. I have never heard of ur priest before until now, but I have no problems doing my best to look it up so I can have a better understanding. An cloistered cleric huh, that's actually not a bad idea as knowledges would go a huge way to better understand the world around me. No he did not go into detail how we should go about getting divine rank, only that we should read dieties and demigod's to the best of our abilities; do what we have to do to get where we need to be. He left it pretty open ended. There are other dieties in his world out there besides us who are no doubt going to go above and beyond to achieve their own ambitions.

An pertaining to the gestalt question, I've never actually seen a gestalt character done as the Unearthed Arcana makes it sounds super complicated so I just shied away from it. An to the last question I would have to run it by my dm since the only thing he banned from the table was Tome of Battle.

[Twurps]

Ur-priest is from Complete Divine (p70). It's a class that gets to 9th level cleric casting in just 10 levels, instead of the normal 20 (17). It does require you to be evil.
If your class level is added after 20 levels of outsider, than the 'extra turning' trick doesn't work, and UR-priest is stronger than (cloistered)cleric.

Gestalt is an alternative rules system, so your DM saying 'anything is allowed' still doesn't mean gestalt is allowed. If you haven't specifically discussed it, most likely it's not allowed.

[shaikujin]

Do your worst? Very nice!


Would the races being fluff prevent you from taking racial substitution levels, racial classes or racial feats?
Such as Dragonwrought Kobold, Changeling Wizard, Elven Generalist?



With your Outsider levels, use the NonEpic Epic Destinies Variant, and choose the Demigod destiny. It should mesh especially well in your campaign.
L12 Replace feat with Divine Spark & Death Denied
L15 Replace feat with Regenerative Touch
L18 Replace feat with Divine Surge
L20 Replace feat Miracle, Divine Immortality

So upon taking your first class level, you start with 1/Day CL21 Miracle, at will CL20 Regeneration spell, you are an actual Demigod, and have your own Divine Domain and Portfolio.

Having Divine Domains and a Portfolio means your minimum Divine Rank is 1.
Being a Demigod means a Divine Rank between 1 to 5.

See if you can get your DM to agree with giving you DVR 5. Or at least DVR 1.
If you successfully get at least DVR 1, pick up Divine Fire Mastery as per my earlier post. Or at least Alter Reality.

Bloodlines - See if you can fluff having taken all 3 levels of a Major Bloodline during your 20 Outsider levels. Bloodlines do not raise ECL.


For base classes, Cleric is a solid choice for your 1st level due to how it interacts with salient divine abilities.
Other good choices are
Ardent (learn powers based on ML, and ML can be boosted)
Sha'ir (cast both arcane and divine spells)
Wizard, Druid (always good choices)
Sorceror (not as good as the ones above, but still a full caster).


Because you qualify for PRCs by your first class level, you might also want to look at things like taking Ur Priest as your first class level.



Since the others seem to be going for the warrior type portfolios, you can go for the spellcasting types.
Choose portfolios based on the salient divine abilities. I recommend these
Magic (Arcane Mastery, Auto Metamagic, Craft, Instant Counterspell etc)
Knowledge (Craft, Divine Recall, Know Secrets etc)
Fire (Divine Fire Mastery)



Let me know if the options above appeal to you.

Edit: Rats, Ur Priest part was already mentioend while I was typing

[ghostfreak24]

Do your worst? Very nice!


Would the races being fluff prevent you from taking racial substitution levels, racial classes or racial feats?
Such as Dragonwrought Kobold, Changeling Wizard, Elven Generalist?



With your Outsider levels, use the NonEpic Epic Destinies Variant, and choose the Demigod destiny. It should mesh especially well in your campaign.
L12 Replace feat with Divine Spark & Death Denied
L15 Replace feat with Regenerative Touch
L18 Replace feat with Divine Surge
L20 Replace feat Miracle, Divine Immortality

So upon taking your first class level, you start with 1/Day CL21 Miracle, at will CL20 Regeneration spell, you are an actual Demigod, and have your own Divine Domain and Portfolio.

Having Divine Domains and a Portfolio means your minimum Divine Rank is 1.
Being a Demigod means a Divine Rank between 1 to 5.

See if you can get your DM to agree with giving you DVR 5. Or at least DVR 1.
If you successfully get at least DVR 1, pick up Divine Fire Mastery as per my earlier post. Or at least Alter Reality.

Bloodlines - See if you can fluff having taken all 3 levels of a Major Bloodline during your 20 Outsider levels. Bloodlines do not raise ECL.


For base classes, Cleric is a solid choice for your 1st level due to how it interacts with salient divine abilities.
Other good choices are
Ardent (learn powers based on ML, and ML can be boosted)
Sha'ir (cast both arcane and divine spells)
Wizard, Druid (always good choices)
Sorceror (not as good as the ones above, but still a full caster).


Because you qualify for PRCs by your first class level, you might also want to look at things like taking Ur Priest as your first class level.



Since the others seem to be going for the warrior type portfolios, you can go for the spellcasting types.
Choose portfolios based on the salient divine abilities. I recommend these
Magic (Arcane Mastery, Auto Metamagic, Craft, Instant Counterspell etc)
Knowledge (Craft, Divine Recall, Know Secrets etc)
Fire (Divine Fire Mastery)



Let me know if the options above appeal to you.

Edit: Rats, Ur Priest part was already mentioend while I was typing


Dm gave a no on the epic destiny. In his own words he said that we are gods and those are for mortals. Yes to the bloodlines since again no one asked about it and I'll need to read up on ur-priest. Is building an ur-priest similar to building a cleric? An do I give up on the marshal suggestion one of you guys's made mention of earlier? What bloodlines should I go for? An could someone give me an example as to how it should be built?

[icefractal]

Check out Magic of Incarnum. The "Open ___ Chakra" feats are just based off character level, so you should be able to open anything short of the Heart chakra. You could either use this to get a particular soulmeld that would be useful, or take your one level as Incarnate for more versatility.

Also, if being extremely good-aligned fits with your character, then Vow of Poverty would give some pretty nice bonuses compared to having nothing like you do now. It may become obsolete later though, depending on how easily wealth is acquired.

[ghostfreak24]

Never tried the VOP before build before but I'll definitely look into. Never read Magic of Incarnum but I have no issue reading the book since nobody that I know have has ever opened or used the book before. Definitely something to look into, thanks for the help. Also because we are outsiders, regardless of what classes we take we get the simple and martial weapon proficiency's along with the wearing different armors. Meaning if I got cloistered cleric then I lose nothing. I didn't think about it until I was doing some looking through the bloodlines and settled on the Titan bloodline. Something about wielding oversized weapons with knowledge devotion seems so juicy to pass up. Not to mention the different knowledges will come in handy in his world so i don't piss off the wrong person/diety by accident. Only the feats I have an issue picking out. Opinions?

[shaikujin]

Too bad with Epic Destinies being rejected.
No worries, still a lot of things open.

Titan Bloodline is indeed one of the better ones, good pick. Note the oversized weapon ability points to the Titan entry. And if you look up that entry, you will see that this allows you to wield a gargantuan weapon. It's one of the known tricks to wield a really large weapon.

VoP is feasible for certain low wealth games, but I don't think it's good for your game. For one, you'll immediately lose your +5 Sword. I'd recommend against this.

Incarnum and Vestige Binding are very nice as passive abilities (always on, no action required), and good to gestalt with other classes which gives active abilities.

Feat selection will depend what type of class you wish to play (or are more comfortable playing with).

Eg if you are comfortable with a psionic fullcaster, I would recommend Ardent, with the Practiced Manifester feat, and metapsionic feats.

If you want to play with an army of followers at your back, select leadership and pick up Marshal later on.

If you want to play as a divine caster, pick up metamagic feats and use your turn undead to fuel DMM.

If you wish to play a gish, then feat selection will be different as well.

Which way do you feel more comfortable with?

[shaikujin]

Also, any preference for alignment?

[Rebel7284]

I like this game idea! Certainly involves thinking outside the box.

- The most powerful thing you can do is take Leadership for a full caster. Other similar feats work nicely too such as Undead Leadership and even Dragon Cohort.
- As you can count as any race, consider being a beholder for the Beholder Mage prestige class. :D [edit]OR a mind flayer for Illithid Savant
- Barring race shenanigans, Ur Priest is a great idea. Easy prerequisites and will give you level appropriate spells sooner than most other approaches.
- Telflamar Shadowlord is another fun idea. If you can't easily get the Shadow Walker template to qualify, Lesser Dragonmark[Mark of Passage] will give you Dimension Door as a SLA (very cross-setting, but eh?). Shadow Pounce will result in multiple full attacks per round and Shadow Discorporation can save you from death.

[edit]Although if the game is as brutal as expected, Anticipate Teleportation may suddenly become common.

[ghostfreak24]

Our game is going to be extremely brutal. The only thing that saved us mostly in both encounters was that the dm had a fail safe in the colossus who was emanating anti magic when we got attacked by the solars, and with the terrasque. Once we were able to draw blood from it with the +5 dancing greatswords, we drew the crowd into a frenzy and the dm allowed each of us to roll a charisma check. Me and the guy who wanted to be the god of battle who ended up taking all the twf feats and monkey grip got the highest, drawing the attention of the goddess of that world. Who was overseeing the arena battle. For now despite being rank 0 we have to kiss ass until we can kick it and I am not going to jump in anyone's chest unless I know for sure I have my bases and defenses covered.


A marshal dip is definitely going to be a good idea as after distributing my points properly after doing the math and if I decided to be a cloistered cleric. Along with the outsider hit die skill points we get, my diplomacy before I roll is 36 since I ended up making my charisma +3 since from brief interaction with her. She seems to be very shallow, honest but also shallow. So I'll use that to my advantage. I've never used leadership but I'll run it by him and see how it goes. I mostly took the titan bloodline because I know him as the kind of person to bring really big beasties against us. Who will no doubt have big weapons. Plus something about an heroic spirit walking around with a gargantuan+ weapon regularly or into battle is just humorous. Its like that old saying that Frank Underwood gave in House of Cards. "Shake with my right hand but hold a rock in my left."


I've never really played an evil character before as I mostly stick towards good or neutral so I have a bit of freedom to work with. Though I am open to trying something new and different. But if I did play an evil character he would probably follow the example of darkseid. I believe he's lawful evil? Not a hundred percent sure but he seems to act that way and I'd have to look up some examples of evil character's to get a feel for the character. I don't want to be some murdering wack job just because. But rather someone who has a goal in mind and is willing to do whatever it takes to see it through; while being principled and convicted in his beliefs.

I just read ur-priest multiple time and I am stunned. They really do get divine spells much earlier and faster than clerics. The spell focus evil is a dumb pre-req but my dm is willing to ignore it provided i make the requirements. Sure I give up the 3 domains by going ur-priest first level, (My original domains were magic/rune and knowledge domain for knowledge devotion abuse) but gain much more in terms of spells. Interesting. Divine Caster seems an interest to me, then I'll probably take dips in paladin and the like to increase my saves and defenses. I've never played a psionic before nor am I familiar with the rules of psionics.


Would a cheater of mystra build work in this world, despite the circumstances or no?

My stats are as follows:
Str- 12/1
Dex- 14/2
Con- 14/2
Int- 14/2
Wis- 16/3
Cha- 16/3

[Rebel7284]

You don't have to be a bloodthirsty murderhobo to be evil, just a continued pattern of putting your own goals and well-being over the well-being of others. Just look at most CEOs and politicians. They're primarily Lawful Evil.
Is the alignment the primary reason you are shying away from Ur-Priest even though you see how awesome it is?
Note that you can pick up domains on an Ur Priest as well using classes like Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Seeker of the Misty Isle, etc. along with Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment.

[ghostfreak24]

[QUOTE=Rebel7284;21960760]You don't have to be a bloodthirsty murderhobo to be evil, just a continued pattern of putting your own goals and well-being over the well-being of others. Just look at most CEOs and politicians. They're primarily Lawful Evil.
Is the alignment the primary reason you are shying away from Ur-Priest even though you see how awesome it is?
Note that you can pick up domains on an Ur Priest as well using classes like Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Seeker of the Misty Isle, etc. along with Planar Touchstone: Catalogs of Enlightenment.[/QUOTE


Partly the alignment but if it helps me survive then I'll stomach it to the end and do what needs to be done. An you bring a valid point, a very valid point. Especially since my dm said I couldn't use the initiate of mystra feat since I can't meet the prereqs for it as she does not exist in this world. So ur-priest looks to be the way I'll be going. So they function just like how a cleric functions with dmm persists? Or how does that work exactly?


Because I thought about going lvs in ur-priest, marshal, paladin of tyranny. Idk what else to add that there mix, if anyone has ideas then please share them. I'd like to hear them as we'll probably be going to level 30 to 50 just like how the god's in dieties and demigods.

[ghostfreak24]

Also another question. Would I be able to benefit from the feat practiced spell caster on a cleric?

[shaikujin]

If the evil alignment is really bothering you, there are a couple of options:

1) Change alignment after level 1. Only PRCs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane have the note where you lose the benefits of the PRC if you no longer meet the prereqs. This rule should not apply to PRCs outside those 2 books.

Esp not Ur Priest because one of the prereqs is not being able to cast divine spells. If that rule applies to Ur Priest, once you take your first level of Ur Priest and gain divine spell casting, the PRC invalidates itself.

2) Ask DM if that alignment can be waived

3) Ask DM if the adaptation section of Ur Priest makes it pausible to him that there is a non-evil version of Ur Priest



If the alignment issue is waived, take PRC Paladin instead of Paladin of Tyranny. If not, see if DM allows Prestige Paladin of Tyranny.

Yes, DMM Persist (or any other metamagic) works on Ur Priest just like clerics.

Yes, practiced spell caster works on divine spell casters like clerics and Ur Priest. You will get a CL of 8 right off the bat. (1 from lvl1 Ur Priest, 3 from Titan Bloodline, 4 from practiced spell caster)

Since gestalt is on the table, a good combo for your first level is to take Ur Priest // Binder.
Bind Naberius for survivability.

Or if you are going the gish route, maybe Ur Priest // Full BAB class.

[ghostfreak24]

If the evil alignment is really bothering you, there are a couple of options:

1) Change alignment after level 1. Only PRCs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane have the note where you lose the benefits of the PRC if you no longer meet the prereqs. This rule should not apply to PRCs outside those 2 books.

Esp not Ur Priest because one of the prereqs is not being able to cast divine spells. If that rule applies to Ur Priest, once you take your first level of Ur Priest and gain divine spell casting, the PRC invalidates itself.

2) Ask DM if that alignment can be waived

3) Ask DM if the adaptation section of Ur Priest makes it pausible to him that there is a non-evil version of Ur Priest



If the alignment issue is waived, take PRC Paladin instead of Paladin of Tyranny. If not, see if DM allows Prestige Paladin of Tyranny.

Yes, DMM Persist (or any other metamagic) works on Ur Priest just like clerics.

Yes, practiced spell caster works on divine spell casters like clerics and Ur Priest. You will get a CL of 8 right off the bat. (1 from lvl1 Ur Priest, 3 from Titan Bloodline, 4 from practiced spell caster)

Since gestalt is on the table, a good combo for your first level is to take Ur Priest // Binder.
Bind Naberius for survivability.

Or if you are going the gish route, maybe Ur Priest // Full BAB class.




Yes to the paladin of tyranny, yes to the practiced spellcaster but he gave a no to the binder/gestalt idea. But either way I am stunned that practiced spellcaster works on the titan bloodline. Wow. I didn't know that at all. Man, the more you know. Thank you for pointing that out for me or I would've never known at all. Helps me big time.


So my feats are as follows.
1. Practiced spellcaster
3. Practiced spellcaster
6. Extend Spell
9. Persist Spell
12. Divine Metamagic Persist
15. Combat Expertise
18
Flaw.
Flaw.
1.

Not sure what to take for the last set feats. I'd considered the improved combat exertise, improved trip and the like, or go the single level in marshal and take all of the improved grab, improved trips, aoo feats until I start working on my ur priest levels.

[Rebel7284]

Yes to the paladin of tyranny, yes to the practiced spellcaster but he gave a no to the binder/gestalt idea. But either way I am stunned that practiced spellcaster works on the titan bloodline. Wow. I didn't know that at all. Man, the more you know. Thank you for pointing that out for me or I would've never known at all. Helps me big time.


So my feats are as follows.
1. Practiced spellcaster
3. Practiced spellcaster
6. Extend Spell
9. Persist Spell
12. Divine Metamagic Persist
15. Combat Expertise
18
Flaw.
Flaw.
1.

Not sure what to take for the last set feats. I'd considered the improved combat exertise, improved trip and the like, or go the single level in marshal and take all of the improved grab, improved trips, aoo feats until I start working on my ur priest levels.

Practiced Spellcaster is working on your racial HD, not really on the bloodline. They just stack nicely.

Some issues with your feats:
1. Practiced Spellcaster can only be taken once.
2. Divine Metamagic has a Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead. You don't get that until Ur-Priest 2, so you can't take it yet.
3. Why Combat Expertise? Just to boost your AC slightly?

I would avoid improved trip in a game like this. This is essentially an epic game. Creatures are likely to be VERY large, have alternate movement modes that don't care about being prone, and/or have SLAs and spells.

Some additional thoughts:

I think it's worthwhile to plan your build at least a dozen levels in advance so that you can take the necessary feats to qualify. Some classes to consider after Ur Priest 2 are:
- Contemplative 1 or 6: one or two domains, some immunities.
- Divine Oracle 2: Evasion
- Spelldancer: You have free feats, why not turn them into an even better metamagic machine? Also, more evasion.
- Dweomerkeeper 4+: You need Magical Training to qualify, but supernatural spell is amazing.
- Seeker of the Misty Isle 1: Easy to enter, excellent domain.
- Shadowcraft Mage: Combine with Divine Metamagic[Heighten Spell] to cast from two wizard schools even earlier than an Ur Priest normally would.
- Holt Warden 1: gain domain slots

[ghostfreak24]

Practiced Spellcaster is working on your racial HD, not really on the bloodline. They just stack nicely.

Some issues with your feats:
1. Practiced Spellcaster can only be taken once.
2. Divine Metamagic has a Prerequisite: Ability to turn undead or rebuke undead. You don't get that until Ur-Priest 2, so you can't take it yet.
3. Why Combat Expertise? Just to boost your AC slightly?

[edit] I would avoid improved trip in a game like this. This is essentially an epic game. Creatures are likely to be VERY large, have alternate movement modes that don't care about being prone, and/or have SLAs and spells.

Ahh, I see. Alright you bring a valid point. Definitely going to avoid tripping and the such since I completely forgot that creatures like solar and the like are large and that would work against me. Thank you for pointing it out. What if instead of the ur-priest I took cloistered cleric? To benefit from divine metamagic and the extra turning feats to give me some fuel. Yea I had thought about taking combat expertise and improved combat expertise to increase my ac up to my Bab. Making it 48. I could convince my dm to allow me to take cloistered cleric and ur-priest since the latter basically disqualifies itself because they can cast divine spells and he would be able to see my reasoning behind it.


The knowledges and the extra domain will be extremely useful as I know he is the kinda person that loves go over the top, considering he had us fight a Terrasque buck naked for mortal entertainment. Plus knowledge devotion would give me some extra wiggle room towards my attack and damage. So again to make sure I got this properly, practiced spellcaster stacks with my racial hd, along with my bloodline and my current level in cloistered cleric? Giving me a total caster lv of 8. (4 from the feat itself. 1 from the cleric lv, and 3 from my racial hd.)

[ghostfreak24]

You bring a very fair point. I'll be sure to plan way ahead of time so I can be ready. Thank you.

[shaikujin]

Yes to the paladin of tyranny, yes to the practiced spellcaster but he gave a no to the binder/gestalt idea. But either way I am stunned that practiced spellcaster works on the titan bloodline. Wow. I didn't know that at all. Man, the more you know. Thank you for pointing that out for me or I would've never known at all. Helps me big time.


So my feats are as follows.
1. Practiced spellcaster
3. Practiced spellcaster
6. Extend Spell
9. Persist Spell
12. Divine Metamagic Persist
15. Combat Expertise
18
Flaw.
Flaw.
1.

Not sure what to take for the last set feats. I'd considered the improved combat exertise, improved trip and the like, or go the single level in marshal and take all of the improved grab, improved trips, aoo feats until I start working on my ur priest levels.

Do you mean "Yes" to PRC version of Paladin of Tyranny?
Is he no longer allowing gestalt?
Or is he just not allowing ur-priest//binder gestalt combo? What are the kinds of gestalt combinations allowed?



You can take Practiced Spell Caster multiple times, but each time you take it, you have to apply it to a different spell casting class.
The Titan Bloodline is not a spellcasting class, so you cannot take Practiced spell caster for this bloodline. For now, since your only spellcasting class is Ur Priest, you can only take
"Practiced Spell Caster (Ur Priest)".

The feat gives you +4 CL if you have 4 character levels (or Hit Dice) beyond the Ur Priest levels. If you have less than 4 character levels outside of Ur Priest, the CL bonus will be less. Since you have more than 4 character levels from your Outsider HD, you gain the full +4 to CL.



As to the choice between Cloistered Cleric and Ur Priest, I will give you the following comparison:

1 level of Ur Priest gets you level 1 spells, with a potential Caster Level of 8. Several level 1 buffing spells cast with CL8 will already last quite long.

9 levels of Ur Priest gets you level 9 spells (with CL of 16). But you can use DMM only at level 2 earliest since that's when you gain your Turn Undead pool.



1 level of Cloistered Cleric gets you level 1 spells, with a potential Caster Level of 8. Many level 1 spells cast with CL8 will already last quite long. You have a turn undead pool to fuel DMM.

9 levels of Cloistered Cleric gets you level 5 spells (with CL of 16). You need to wait until level 17 of Cloistered Cleric to cast level 9 spells. That's 8 levels behind Ur Priest.



So going Cloistered Cleric gives you DMM 1 level earlier for some weak level 1 spells. What's more, this weak benefit lasts for only the first class level. Once you hit class level 2, the advantage is gone.
But the trade off is being 8 levels behind Ur Priest.

Ur Priest is the optimal choice.
Freeing up 8 levels also means that you can at the very least take 8 levels of Wizard.

[ghostfreak24]

Told me that yes he would allow Prc Paladin of Tyranny but the gestalting he would not allow, same with the binder or anything pertaining to tome of magic.

[shaikujin]

I just remembered a trick to get Turn Undead using a feat (but your DM may not allow it).

Planar Touchstone - Catalogues of Enlightenment allows you to gain the domain power of a domain.

The Sun domain in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting grants Turn Undead as a good Cleric.

So you can pick this up using one of your feats at level 1, together with your metamagic feats and DMM.

At Ur Priest 2, you gain Rebuke Undead, and now you have 2 pools to power DMM.

If you have feat slots still open, you can consider Leadership and Item Familiar. The latter should help you since you currently have zero wealth. Ancestral Relic might also be a good feat, but requires being Exalted and Good aligned.

If you need some starting gold, there's an organisation in either DMG2 or PHB2 which allows you to borrow 30,000 gp for a year. Your 20 Outsider HD should grant you a decent Affiliation score.

Trying to fit in Planar Shepherd might be useful as well, seeing that you will gain a demiplane of your own when you have sufficient DVR. You can then look into Demiplane abuse (fast time, automatic Metamagic, subjective gravity, Dead Magic for anyone but you etc). Then you can get the PRC's Planar Bubble ability to use your demiplane's traits with you.

The Southern Magician feat will allow your Divine spells to be cast as Arcane. This will qualify you for some Arcane progressing PRCs (like Sublime Chord, which is another fast spell progression PRC). Then you can pick up theurge classes to advance both and get 9th level spells in both Arcane and Divine.

The spell list for PRC Paladin of Tyranny should get you some divine spells earlier than equivalent cleric versions.

Ditto for PRC Ranger and PRC Bard.
PRC Bard will help with the Sublime Chord's Bardic Music requirement.

PRC Ranger should grant you Wild Empathy and Animal Companion.

Wild Empathy is a requirement for Lion of Talisid (but this PRC is restricted to Neutral Good), which grants Wildshape, which is required for Planar Shepherd.

If you pick up the Evil subtype (say you are the offspring of an Evil Aligned outsider), but have an alignment of Neutral Good, you can meet the alignment requirements of both.

Or if you like to play as evil, Tainted Sorceror is good too.

If you want to keep things simple, just go with Ur Priest 8/PRC Paladin 1.



...ok, this post was longer than I intended.
Have fun with your game :D

[ghostfreak24]

Our second session was last week saturday and it was quite interesting to say the least. So I went with the Ur-Priest lv 1 that you guys recommended, taking alot of support spells. I believe our biggest MVP moments was when we managed to get near full price for the blade of the solar and managed to outfit the party with pretty decent gear. Originally the guy who is most definitely epic btw, tried to offer us a measly 3,000 gp for it but my Nat 20 appraise managed to give me the full price and worth of the blade. Not to mention my +33 diplomacy managed to get him to work with us, rather than against us. Leaving both sides happy with the transaction. Since we started the game with no gear and money to begin and have not come to the realization that we are gods yet. Every little bit helps. An the other was prior to our fight with some level 21 bandits who were just geared and prepped for war, for some reason my mind told me to use the cleric spell that boosts your saves by +1. Which I did an not more than two minutes after I did that, we were ambushed and had to make a dc 26 fort save for wail of the banshee. Two of of our party members died because they did not invest their points into their con, while the rest lived by really good rolls and investment. That +1, like it or not saved me. I finally now have access to lv 2 spells. I can see why people think so highly about this class.


Now apparently our dm would like for us to plot out to at least 50 to 100 levels in advance because he expects the game to be super long term as because in every game we will gain a level. Killing a god within the party also grants one a level, but he did say that the main crack of the game would be divine rank. As that's where the real power is at because without it we can't fight other npc gods on even grounds. An after watching Sith (Goddess of evil) divine blast one of our party members to dust. I wholeheartedly agree. Thanks again for the wonderful insights and advice guys, it really made this second session(Saturday gone) a real treat and pleasure. Though what other classes I'd like to add to the mix is beyond me. So I continue to seek your counsel and advice. Since I have never built a character that went past lv 12 to 15, and I am deeply grateful for heeding your advice about the Ur-Priest.

[Thunder999]

If you can find a way to keep raising caster level for most of those 100 levels then holy word and similar spells will let you one shot everything, because 100 is more HD than most (or maybe all) gods.

[shaikujin]

Look at my previous post to see what some of the options are.

In general, try to progress spell level advancement at every level. Gaining access to a higher level of spells is generally worth a lot more than any abilities given by a a class which do not progress your spell casting levels.

The only exception would be if you are going to theurge. In fact, looking at the long term planning for with 50-100 levels, I would suggest sacrificing 1 level of spell progressing to pick up an arcane casting PRC so that you can pick up arcane + divine Theurge classes. Unless you get a chance to retrain later on.

Also, did you DM hint at roughly what levels you can expect to get at chance of divine ranks?
Knowing this can allow you to plan your class levels around it. Eg If you will be getting your first Salient Divine ability at level 20 (and can take alter reality/divine fire mastery), PRCs like DweomerKeeper would be helpful. If you will get salient abilities at level 5, DweomerKeeper's supernatural spell schtick is less valuable.

Even spell casting levels may become less valuable depending on the circumstances, such as your DM allowing you to use Divine Fire Mastery to replicate Epic Spells you have not researched.

Otherwise, you'll still need the spell casting levels for things like
- surviving and winning your first fight with a deity
- metamagic'd spells over level 9 which alter reality cannot replicate without some drawbacks
- access to epic spell casting

[ghostfreak24]

Sadly he didn't say when we would be able to gain Divine Rank. Only that it will be up to us to go out of our way to go and get it. Although he did make mention that the goddess of evil was at war with a group of people. The most that I know of is that she attacked first and nobody knows the reason why. So I'm gonna take a look into the matter. Might prove to be quite lucrative.

[ghostfreak24]

Ok, so far so good. Managed to survive 5 game sessions and survived my first battle vs a god with the portfolio of murder. Known for having a reputation of killing other gods heralds in my dm's game. An now I am slowly starting to pick up steam. Being able to have access to higher level spells so early in the game has been extremely handy and I have you guys to thank for it. I'm still doing more homework about Clerics and how they should perform and the more I play and learn the more I'm understanding my potential. The sheer amount of options that are open to me is just plain insane.

Also I have a question to ask the group. With divine metamagic persist, does it work on the lv 5 spell known as Surge of Fortune. I was doing some heavy digging into alot of books and when I came across this spell, I was too stunned and needed to get on the forums and ask asap. Because if it can be persisted, I have a rather sneaky plan to help me and the party begin our first step towards getting worshippers. The town that we are in has an arena that hosts alot of interesting fights. The first game we played we ended up crash landing here and due to a party member ended up having to fight a Tarrasque. At the time we were not properly equipped and horribly outmatched due to lack of gear, and whatnot. But now thanks to us all surviving our trials in the world and troubles, we managed to get some really nice equipment from some bandits. Not to mention we were awarded by the goddess of evil Sith, by foiling an assassination attempt on her life by the very same god of murder she hired to do a job. Because our monk was able to get a nat 20 on the spot check to notice him, and me and the paladin of tyranny managed to both land nat 20's on a god whose ac was in the 3 digits. By my dm's words. Unfortunately he managed to kill one of our own because he tried to trip the god of murder and did not have improved trip and the goddess's herald with a dread weapon and a poison that managed to drop his con score low enough to fail the fort save and turn to dust. I've identified the weapon as an artifact dagger made to affect other god's and get over their immunities.

The paladin was awarded with a sword that was basically the evil version of excalibur and she has asked me to go to her treasure room and pick any one item that I desire. Hope you guys managed to get back to me asap. So far its been a dangerous road but at the same time the experience has been well needed.


My levels are 2 Ur-priest, 2 Divine Oracle (because our dm likes to use traps and from what I've gathered from experience, its a must to have evasion of some sort in this game. Though I didn't want to lose caster levels as you guys taught me) and 1 Cloistered Cleric( Had to take a level in this because our dm is quite stingy with being able to see in the dark and likes to use night against us. An having a second pool of turn and rebuke is also quite handy as well. My total turn attempts including the extra turnings I took is now 28. (3 + charisma mod(3) + extra turning (8)


The domains I picked were Baator (for dark vision and seeing in magical darkness) Planning(So I can free up space for an extra feat by trading in my old extend spell for something else and Knowledge (Traded this for knowledge devotion since I have all knowledge as a skill thanks to Able Learner, and surge of fortune abuse to give me more means to hit and damage.)


Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts and opinions please. I am always happy to take your words of wisdom and its has saved my ass more times than I am not shamed to admit. The spells I wanted to persist before even attempting to even fight the terrasque was Surge of fortune, freedom of movement, divine power and mass lessor vigor. With the way we are now we can make the save for the frightful pressence and all of that and I honestly believe that we as a party can take it.

[shaikujin]

Unfortunately by RAW, Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Surge of Fortune since this spell can be discharged.

I'm guessing that you are looking at the auto 20 effects from Surge of Fortune upon discharge? Even if you can persist SoF, you'll only get the +2 luck bonus, plus the ability to discharge it once anytime during the persisted period to get the auto 20 once. You do not get the auto 20 for every single roll throughout the day. Not exactly worth persisting.

Some generic high cheese methods for "persist-ish" effects:
1) Alter Reality salient divine ability to make spells permanent
2) Planar Bubble cast on a minion (or even an intelligent magic item) that is native from a plane with the Timeless Magic trait
3) Auto-resetting trap that casts this once per round
4) Employ STP Erudite to convert Surge of Fortune to a psionic power. Then craft a Psionic Tattoo of the power. Link to a battery.
5) Occular spells can make non-fixed ranged spells in fixed ranged so that they can be persisted (doesn't help for SoF, but is helpful for persisting many other spells)

Less cheesy method, buy a wand of SoF, then put it in a wand chamber crafted into your weapon. It's not persist, but saves you an action to pull out a wand. Wand Surge and a persisted Unfetted Heroism allows you to activate wands without using charges. So you can re-cast it whenever it expires.


A couple of notes:
Note that SoF is a level 5 spell, since you used 1 level on Cloister Cleric (which gives you another set of level 1 spells instead of advancing your fast spell progression from Ur Priest), your 2 Ur Priest + 2 PRC levels only allow level 4 spells.

I take it that you changed your alignment to neutral or good so that you can pick up your Turn Undead pool? If you remained evil, your Cloistered Cleric level normally would have given you a Rebuke Undead, which improves the one from Ur Priest, but does not give you a second separate pool for DMM.

Alternatively, have your Cloistered Cleric take the Rebuke Dragon ACF from Dragon Magic.

Then pick up 1 level of Sacred Exorcist to get a Turn Undead pool.

This will grant you 3 pools which can be used for DMM -
1) Rebuke Undead from Ur Priest
2) Rebuke Dragons from Cloistered Cleric
3) Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist

More pools might be possible. Do a Google for "DMM multiple turn undead pools".

[Rebel7284]

Unfortunately by RAW, Persistent Spell cannot be applied to Surge of Fortune since this spell can be discharged.
A couple of notes:
Note that SoF is a level 5 spell, since you used 1 level on Cloister Cleric (which gives you another set of level 1 spells instead of advancing your fast spell progression from Ur Priest), your 2 Ur Priest + 2 PRC levels only allow level 4 spells.


Bolded part is false. You lose all other divine casting when you enter Ur Priest. Cleric is still good due to effectively giving you 3 feats from a large list.



I take it that you changed your alignment to neutral or good so that you can pick up your Turn Undead pool? If you remained evil, your Cloistered Cleric level normally would have given you a Rebuke Undead, which improves the one from Ur Priest, but does not give you a second separate pool for DMM.

Alternatively, have your Cloistered Cleric take the Rebuke Dragon ACF from Dragon Magic.

Then pick up 1 level of Sacred Exorcist to get a Turn Undead pool.

This will grant you 3 pools which can be used for DMM -
1) Rebuke Undead from Ur Priest
2) Rebuke Dragons from Cloistered Cleric
3) Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist

More pools might be possible. Do a Google for "DMM multiple turn undead pools".

I assume that Rebuke Dragons was used.

[shaikujin]

Bolded part is false. You lose all other divine casting when you enter Ur Priest. Cleric is still good due to effectively giving you 3 feats from a large list.



See explanation earlier in the thread regarding how to interpret Ur Priest's requirements and how the PRC would have invalidated itself due to it granting divine casting.

Basically, he took Cloistered Cleric after Ur Priest.
For sanity purposes, Ur Priest's requirements for losing previous divine spellcasting is applicable only upon first entering the class.

[ghostfreak24]

Ahh I see. Damn, that would've been nice if the surge of fortune worked the way that I thought it would work. Still something to keep in my back pocket nontheless. As it may come in handy some day. I am not familiar with ocular spell nor do I know what it does. An I have no chosen cloistered cleric yet. Our party has just hit level 5 (25) actually and it was a choice I consideree because of the free domains it hands out. Hmmm. Gonna have to rethink fighting thay tarrasque idea over then. Probably wait till lv 30 or so before fighting it. As I felt the fame from defeating such a powerful creature would've helped our cause immensely. Does there happen to be a list of recommended spells that a cleric should have persisted at all times? Some spells that caught my attention was Divine power, righteous wrath of the faithful, lore of the gods and freedom of movement. Lore of the gods mostly to be able to make high enough knowledge rolls on whatever creature we will come across. Since he is a stickler for being able to identify the creature.

Can you give me some examples of how ocular spell can be useful or what can I apply it too?

[shaikujin]

You have a Divine Rank of 0, right? I'm listing what DVR 0 grants because you seem to be concerned about the Tarrasque's frightful presence:
- Immortality
- Max HP each level
- Medium sized biped has 60 ft land speed
- Natural AC = 13 + DVR (works on incorporeal/touch attacks. Stacks with all other AC)
- Deflection bonus to AC = Cha mod (stacks with all other AC)
- Every 20 ranks in a skills grants an additional +2 to its synergy bonus
- Immunity to form altering effects like polymorph and petrification that the deity don't use on himself
- Immunity to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage
- Immunity to mind-affecting effects (All fear effects are mind affecting, including the Tarrasque's frightful presence)
- DR 10/Epic
- Fire Resistance 5 + DVR
- Spell Resistance 32 + DVR

You are a 20+ HD Outsider Ur Priest with accelerated access to level 5 spells. The Tarrasque is a piece of cake for you. I'll do that in the next post.



You also seem to be having issues with equipment. Change alignment to good, and pick up the Ancestral Relic feat. With your 20 outsider HD, it can take 380,000 gp worth of sacrifice and can be fully customized to have any magic ability you want within the gp limit.

All the loot your party don't need and have to sell at half price? Buy these half priced loot from the party (it's all the same to them). Sacrifice them at full price to your ancestral relic.

Crappy mundane armor the defeated mooks are wearing which the party doesn't want to waste space to carry to town? Dump into a bag of holding and sacrifice the free loot later.

Dungeon door made from Adamantine which the party cannot carry away? If they are willing to use that location as a base camp for a few days, cast consecrate there and then, and start sacrificing.



Nightsticks from Libra Mortis costs 7.5k and is basically extra turning. Try to get your hands on a few.
Then you can retrain away your 2 Extra Turning feats for something else which money can't buy (well, can't buy as cheaply), like Planar Touchstone [Catalogues of Enlightenment], if you want to get the Baator domain power.

Item Familiar is another good feat.

If you can't buy night sticks easily, you can even consider devoting 7.5k of your Ancestral Relic to give it the power of 1 Nightstick. Or 15k for 2, etc.



Persistent Spell only works on spells with fixed or personal range.
Occular spell is a metamagic from Lords of Madness. Base effect is that the spell you apply it to is stored in your eye. Which you can later release as a 60 ft ray. This means that you can now persist spells with touch or variable range. Eg haste.

This post has some info on using Occular Spell and a list of buffs:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum

Another thread with suggestions for spells to persist:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7543.0


What's your character's current alignment and do you have any alignment preference?

[shaikujin]

This thread will get you started on defeating the Tarrasque:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?192169-Level-three-Tarrasque-kill


Simple explanation, get flight (eg via persisted Air Walk or other means). Big T can't fly and have no ranged attacks.

Then use Summon Undead IV (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=5) to summon Allips.

I would guess that if your DM pits the Tarrasque against you (at a level where you cannot cast wish or miracle yet), defeating it is sufficient and you don't have to burn a Wish to keep it dead permanently.

[ghostfreak24]

My alignment is still lawful evil, but I am playing the character as someone who is not afraid to play both sides of the fence. An so far I am quite chill with everyone in the party, including the lawful good paladin. Who seems quite confused by my actions but I ignore his scrutiny by looking at the much bigger picture. With a high diplomacy to convince people to see things my way and even give up information they normally never would. I never would've thought of summon undead alips. Never even heard of the creatures before until now nor have I heard of ancestral relic. So turning the sword that I got off the solar into my item familiar is a bad idea?

[shaikujin]

As an Item Familiar without Ancestral Relic, the +5 Dancing Greatsword is not optimal, since you cannot re-assign the +5 enhancement bonus or the overpriced +4 Dancing special ability.

If you can make it both an Item Familiar and Ancestral Relic, the Ancestral Relic portion will allow you to totally reconfigure the enhancement properties every time you upgrade it (unless your DM reads the feat differently).

A better choice IMHO, is having the base weapon be a Composite Longbow with the Elvencraft modification. Elvencraft makes the Longbow into a quarterstaff.

That way, you can fit 3 wand chambers (1 for the bow portion, and 1 each for each end of the quarterstaff).


Sacrifice the +5 Dancing Greatsword (it should be worth 162,000 gp at least), then select properties that are more useful to you. You can leave the enhancement at +1 and use the other approx +9 worth of gp to give it properties like sizing and morphing. Since you have the Titan bloodline, it'll be useful to morph and size the weapon into a gargantuan 2 handed warhammer.


For now, I am refraining from morphing + sizing shurikens. But if you are interested in going over the top, you can Google for it.

[ghostfreak24]

Ok, you bring a valuable point and I will be sure to take up both feats to do so. I can get item familiar as my next feat come tomorrow and ancestral relic at level 9, opening up my options. The elvencraft composite longbow is something that is in my budget and I will be sure to add it to my shopping list. An with the extra money I have stored up I can afford the craft rod feat from complete scoundrel, allowing me to make nightsticks on my downtime. Bumping up my extra turn attempts and freeing up a extra turning slot for another valuable feat. Man I didn't realize how powerful that combination was until you brought it up, wow. Man the things you overlook when you read something the first time and don't see the benefit of it until someone explains it in an easier way.


An just to make sure that I don't lose this weapon or it gets broken (my dm has a habit of creating creatures with the habit of sundering weapons and armor; he doesn't do it all the time mind you. But better safe than sorry.) so I'll fork over the 4,000 gp for it to be made from aurorium as well. Wand chambers will definitely be put in for ease of use. (Never heard of wand chambers until you made mention of it and I had to scour online to find out what that was. Dungeonscape is a really nice book.)


An to be honest yes I did have an issue with equipment as I have never played an epic game before and nor did I really know what to expect until you and everyone who has shared in this thread, their wisdom. Which has been a huge help for me and I couldn't be more grateful. Fighting off pseudonatural trolls and crazy epic bandits without equipment on our side was such a huge chore but after alot of close calls, crazy encounters and events, I am much better off now than I was then. Out of curiosity why the elvencraft composite longbow? Not complaining at all, just curious as to what lead to that particular weapon choice.

[shaikujin]

Having the base weapon be an Elvencraft Longbow is simply because it allows you to have 3 wand chambers in 1 single weapon.

Composite so that it can be used from horseback if you ever need to.



Don't forget a weapon crystal of return.

[ghostfreak24]

Had an amazing yesterday and managed to get alot yesterday in my dm's game. Due to circumstances we were not able to take on the tarrasque, however; we did manage to learn alot of interesting things and solve a few problems that would've lead to alot of trouble further down the line. But to summarize it all neatly, the god of protection was upset with my party and myself for being unable to save the lives of two hundred people. Two hundred people who were being attacked by a group of pseudonatural trolls. We were not only unable to hit these creatures due to not being able to hit their obscenely high ac but also unable to get over their dr ans their +50 grapple. We tried to get the people to use us as a distraction while they ran away but they were paralysed by fear. (My dm's words, not mine, an at that point we were lv 22/ lv2 basically). Used detect evil on us and found that 4 of us were evil and proceeded to attack us. It was only due to me convincing him that despite us being evil, we have harmed no innocents or have transgressed anyone. Nat 20 diplomacy saved the day. An I realized that he only attacked those drew arms, so I took a guess that he was also probably a knight, along with being a paladin.

So he went down into the underworld, made a deal with the lord of the dead which freed the 200 souls. But that had a trickle effect of him leaving the hellgate (rift in the fabric of reality that was caused by human casters that lost control of the spell, basically opening a door to the abyss and the nine hells.) We ended up barely surviving the encounter; 8 of us vs a party of 6 balors and Orcus himself. (With advanced hit dice, huge balors with an ac of 52... Orcus was given the same treatment but thankfully did not contribute to the fight, because some decided to run rather than fight. Earning his immediate attention.) But 6 of those balors were power attacking, giving up 20 and still managed to hit.

The true neutral druid was gifted a broach from the god of honor, so me and my item familiar had to buy her time to be able to summon him so he can deal with the situation. Full round action. So I made her ethereal and me ethereal until he got their and sorted that out. Banished the balors back to where they came from and defeated Orcus; sending him packing. Divine rank, irresitible blows, alter reality and salient abilities made it more than for him to match and defeat Orcus.

Brought the party back to life via alter reality and took us to his abode where he explained the situation in full detail. Since every other diety we have come across were quite condescending, including the god of protection. After that traumatising experience, my party decided to have an orgy. I bowed out because I was not interested and the TN druid went off with the god of honor in his cottage to talk and no doubt earn more favor. (An the fact that his temple that does not accept evil in anyway, shape or form. So I pitched me a tent on the outskirts of his temple and bonded further with my weapon. While said orgy was going on not more than 15 feet from my tent. They pitched a tent and did their thing there.)

We ended game where our lawful evil paladin was pulled to the underworld by his artifact via plane shift because the good version of his sword didn't want to be stuck down there forever and wanted to live. So he bargained with the god of the underworld to free the god of protection, since he was the only one keeping the demons and devils from marching on the material plane. In exchange he was given a time limit of 250 years to kill the god of murder and to find someone who would be worthy to take his place, since he didn't want to be the god of the underworld but rather something different.


The female rogue was the perfect candidate since she wanted to be the god of assassination anyway, and the guy is apparently hunting for us anyway so why not. Also, there are these towers that are all in the dm's world that basically allows someone to gain divine rank, however; all who enters said tower are subjected to the rules of it. Meaning that all who enter are equal. So if any of us enter that tower, our divinity turns off immediately. Any and everything that makes us divine will not work in their. Some are excited about it and want to risk it, but I am of the mind that doing so now would be suicide. Especially considering that by my dm's words and understanding, if we go in their we would just be lv 6 characters with the bab, hp and saves of an outsiders vs people who have been adventuring and making things happen majority of their lives; with their full class levels, features and equipment. I am erring on the side of caution and going to gain more levels before I even attempt such a thing.


The towers stop being useful to you once you are divine rank 10. So if you complete the tower at said divine rank 10, you gain nothing. Its a fast track to quickly get divine rank, but considering the tower is an dungeon, I am not going in their without a proper plan and equipment.


Man. Item familiar saved my beacon. Thank you so much for the suggestion! Ended up taking another level in divine oracle since I really wanna max out the class to avoid being surprised and act on surprise will be a huge help.


Edit: Found out that the dm screwed up and that the Balor's weapons were not +5, meaning our Dr would've kicked in to mitigate the damage. I assumed it was +5 because it was a longsword with the vorpal enchantment. He realized his screwup and fixed it accordingly, meaning we now have 6 +1 vorpal long swords. Gonna put that to use.