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Tyger
2007-07-31, 07:28 AM
Having just recently got my grubby little hands on a copy of the MIC, I've been looking over the Augment Crystals (both weapon and armor) and have come to the conclusion that they are grossly underpriced. Most of the greater abilities replicate normal enchantments, but at a far lesser price than the character would normally pay, and with the added versatility of being able to swap them out when needed.

Anyone have any thoughts on these little gems?

Actana
2007-07-31, 08:19 AM
In the MIC somewhere reads something like: And loads of low-price items for your low-level PCs to use. Augment crystals are some of them. And have you noticed that you need a masterwork weapon for least crystals, a +1 for lesser and a +3 for greater crystals.

As a player, I love the crystals. And as a DM, I encourage players to use the crystals. As you can probably tell, I like them.

Tyger
2007-07-31, 08:29 AM
Yes, no disagreement that they are nice, but don't you find them underpriced?

Look at the Greater versions of some of them. For approximately 6K (on average) you can get at a minimum a +1 - +2 weapon enchantment, that can be switched out, thus obviating the need for multiple weapons. In addition, these bonuses don't increase the overall enchantment of the weapon itself, so there is nothing to prohibit the players bumping their sword up to a +5 Vorpal sword, and then tossing on a greater crystal that gives them +1d6 vs undead, Ghost Touch, and the ability to crit / sneak attaack etc undead! This weapon instantly becomes epic level, but it never gets any of the cost penalties that would go along with that. In addition, for when you aren't fighting undead, you swap out your Truedeath crystal for a greater elemental crystal, and boom, now you have a shocking burst +5 vorpal longsword...

And then there are some of the armor crystals. A Restful Crystal for only 500 GP? Ordinarily you need a feat to sleep in armor, but for 500GP anyone can do it. Wait! Its actually better than the feat, as the feat only allows you to sleep in light and medium armor, whereas this bad boy will let you sleep in your adamatium spiked full plate! Or the armor crystal that adds DR to your armor (can't recall the name and I don't have my book here). DR which stacks with all other DRs!!! Madness I say, madness.

Seems like its just too much, for too little cost. Maybe its just a sign of power creep, but it is far too easily abusable. Overall, it looks like the Least versions of some of them are OK, but the lesser and greater seem to be way underpriced for what they grant. But maybe I'm just a stingy bastard.

Actana
2007-07-31, 08:42 AM
You're right, but might I add the following: When you have a +5 vorpal longsword, you probably have much, much better abilities than shocking burst. :smallwink:

There also is another catch: For example, a +1 keen holy flaming burst thundering brutal surge longsword wouldn't allow a greater augment crystal, because its enchantment bonus is only +1.

And anyway, what forces you to sell the crystals at the indicated level. :smallamused:

Saph
2007-07-31, 09:26 AM
They are much more cost-effective than weapon enhancements, but I think that's a good thing, as most weapon enhancements end up being a huge cost for a very situational benefit. A bane or ghost touch ability is useful in only a tiny fraction of encounters, and costs 6,000 at the least and 38,000 at the most. This means that no-one who isn't rolling in money ever buys anything except the most simple and effective weapon enhancements, since they're the only ones that justify their enormous price.

With augment crystals, though, you can switch them around and actually get to use all those obscure abilities. The big balancing factor on them is that you can only use one at a time. This makes them good, but not outright broken, since there's no way to stack them.

- Saph

ImperiousLeader
2007-07-31, 12:13 PM
Plus you still have to dish out for the weapon under that crystal. I don't think it's broken, but I haven't seen anyone able to really abuse them. Again, the one per weapon helps.

Tyger
2007-07-31, 12:33 PM
I suppose that, for me, its just that they seem to obviate the need and expense for, real enchantments.

Why would anyone spend 8,000 gold on a +1 flaming longsword, when they can buy a +1 longsword for 2,000 and then attach a 2,000 gp Energy Crystal (Lesser Fire) to that sword and get the exact same advantage? Actually, its an even better advantage, because then you can spend the other 4,000 you saved buying a Acid and Cold crystal, and now you have the benefit of three seperate +1 longswords doing specific elemental damage for the different circumstances... When you have ways to do it cheaper, and better, players will take advantage of that.

Pink
2007-07-31, 12:52 PM
When you have ways to do it cheaper, and better, players will take advantage of that.

And good for them. Honestly, lower priced magic items geared for the melee fighter types characters are probably a good thing. It might help to reduce the power chasm between fighters and casters a wee bit. I mean, really, is it such a problem that a fighter is getting a cheaper way to do an extra 1d6 damage with an attack while the wizard can deep slumber a group of enemies?

OzymandiasVolt
2007-07-31, 01:11 PM
No one can steal the Flaming enhancement from a flaming longsword.

Tyger
2007-07-31, 01:20 PM
No one can steal the Flaming enhancement from a flaming longsword.

Nope, but if you get your +1 flaming longsword stolen, or your Energy Crystal... which would you choose? :)

Saph
2007-07-31, 01:40 PM
I suppose that, for me, its just that they seem to obviate the need and expense for, real enchantments.

Why would anyone spend 8,000 gold on a +1 flaming longsword, when they can buy a +1 longsword for 2,000 and then attach a 2,000 gp Energy Crystal (Lesser Fire) to that sword and get the exact same advantage?

When you're fighting Cold-subtype enemies and want to do 2d6 fire damage instead of 1d6.

More to the point, what this means is that players will buy a +1 Longsword and one of each of the Lesser Energy crystals, rather than buying a separate longsword for each enhancement. This makes a lot more sense to me - it's much more efficient and goes some way to preventing the 'golf bag of weapons' that you tend to get at higher levels.

- Saph

Douglas
2007-07-31, 04:56 PM
As I recall, most of the augment crystals give situational bonuses that are very rarely worth the cost to get as normal enhancements. The lower prices of the crystals means that those abilities will actually get used, rather than being ignored by any powergamer who isn't, for example, in an undead-heavy campaign where incorporeal enemies are encountered all the time instead of once in a great while.

Tyger
2007-07-31, 10:11 PM
As I recall, most of the augment crystals give situational bonuses that are very rarely worth the cost to get as normal enhancements. The lower prices of the crystals means that those abilities will actually get used, rather than being ignored by any powergamer who isn't, for example, in an undead-heavy campaign where incorporeal enemies are encountered all the time instead of once in a great while.

Except some of them are pretty much universal enchantments that people might want routinely. Crystals of Returning, Energy Assault and Life Drinking come to mind. I'll be the first to admit that some of them are pretty situational (Truedeath, Fiendslayer, Revelation, etc) but some are pretty handy to have all the time. And at those kind of prices, there is little prohibiting characters from having a wide selection of them on hand at any given time, thus having access to just the right weapon, at the cost of a move action.

Maybe its just because our game tends to be quite low wealth and power, but these just seem too good to be true for me. Any time you can get the same effect (as a weapon or armor enchantment) for substantially less gold, that's just too good to be true for me. :)

Proven_Paradox
2007-07-31, 10:23 PM
Well, frankly, I have little objection to giving the melee classes a bit of a boost. Plus, if you buy a bunch of these, that's money that you could have used to get a single, stronger weapon/armor. That 2,000 for the energy crystal sounds like it should have gone to an amulet of natural armor, for example.

kkortekaas
2007-08-01, 07:25 AM
I think people are forgetting the cardinal rule:

The DM can change the availability of the above noted crystals.

Their is no rule that states a magic item (regardless of what it is) is available all the time.

And on top of that, the prices listed in the MIC are typical market prices, who's to say that what you can purchase them at all the time, toss a 50% markup on the crystals to make them cost just a bit more.

Hell, if my players insist on collecting all the crap from their fallen enemies, I only let them sell it for 20% of it's worth because they're flooding the market with armor or weapons.

Tyger
2007-08-01, 07:37 AM
I think people are forgetting the cardinal rule:

The DM can change the availability of the above noted crystals.

Their is no rule that states a magic item (regardless of what it is) is available all the time.

And on top of that, the prices listed in the MIC are typical market prices, who's to say that what you can purchase them at all the time, toss a 50% markup on the crystals to make them cost just a bit more.

Hell, if my players insist on collecting all the crap from their fallen enemies, I only let them sell it for 20% of it's worth because they're flooding the market with armor or weapons.

Nope, I don't think anyone is forgetting that at all... this was a discussion about the items as printed. I think everyone on the boards knows all about Rule Zero.

Thinker
2007-08-01, 08:44 AM
I think people are forgetting the cardinal rule:

The DM can change the availability of the above noted crystals.

Their is no rule that states a magic item (regardless of what it is) is available all the time.

And on top of that, the prices listed in the MIC are typical market prices, who's to say that what you can purchase them at all the time, toss a 50% markup on the crystals to make them cost just a bit more.

Hell, if my players insist on collecting all the crap from their fallen enemies, I only let them sell it for 20% of it's worth because they're flooding the market with armor or weapons.

That's a fine house-rule, but by RAW this is not how DnD works and does little to address Tyger's problem.

@Tyger: I think you are making a big deal out of a fairly minor issue. They increase versatility for meleers which is a good thing. They do make certain enchantments obsolete, but only the ones that were practically obsolete through disuse to begin with. Frankly, meleers need a boost and everything that gives it to them is a good thing.

Tyger
2007-08-01, 09:07 AM
That's a fine house-rule, but by RAW this is not how DnD works and does little to address Tyger's problem.

@Tyger: I think you are making a big deal out of a fairly minor issue. They increase versatility for meleers which is a good thing. They do make certain enchantments obsolete, but only the ones that were practically obsolete through disuse to begin with. Frankly, meleers need a boost and everything that gives it to them is a good thing.

Didn't mean to make a big deal out of it, and sorry if I gave that impression. They just seem to be a bit too cheap for what they offer, in my opinion. Our DM appears to agree (much to the chagrin of the warriors in the party) and has pretty much said no to all the greater version, yes to the least versions and maybe to the lesser ones. All in all, while I think (as a player of D&D) that the crystals do give a nice versatility to fighter types for a good price, I have to agree with him that they are simply cheaper ways to enchant weapons.

That said, he's a stingy bastard when it comes to gold and items, so its hard to say if I am just jaded by that. For example, my level 8 wizard has a whooping 3 magic items... a level 3 wand of magic missile, a level 5 wand of hold person (neither of which were found fully charged) and an amulet of health +2. So you get an idea of our WBL being a bit different from the norm. :)