What's Your Nationality?

[Bartmanhomer]

What's everybody nationality in this forum? I'm mixed. I'm part Spanish (Guatemalan)/African American.

[Aedilred]

Is that really a nationality? Ethnic background, yes, ancestry, yes, cultural identity, yes, but nationality implies identification with a nation, generally a nation state where one exists. Maybe Americans have a different attitude to such things. From the description though it seems like your nationality is American but that you have other heritage elements with which you identify. But "African" isn't a nationality and nor really is "African-American", I wouldn't have thought. And unless you have citizenship of Guatemala or Spain (or are in a position to claim citizenship but haven't) I'm not sure that really counts as a nationality either.

I'm not trying to be pedantic for the sake of it, but I feel like the question is a different one to the one the sample answers appear to be answering.

For my part, I am British (or English, if you want a narrower definition, albeit I consider myself British first and foremost). I am considering applying for dual-nationality with Spain and/or Portugal, but would make no pretensions to being either Spanish or Portuguese unless/until such citizenship were granted (which is unlikely, but possibly worth a try).

[Yuki Akuma]

You could argue England, Scotland and Ireland are all different nations - probably Wales, too. Maybe even Cornwall. "Nation" doesn't quite mean the same as "Country". Someone from Northern Ireland may very well consider themselves Irish, and people from the Republic of Ireland probably wouldn't argue with him. Probably.

I'm English, although I do identify with the rest of Britain as well.

[Bartmanhomer]

Is that really a nationality? Ethnic background, yes, ancestry, yes, cultural identity, yes, but nationality implies identification with a nation, generally a nation state where one exists. Maybe Americans have a different attitude to such things. From the description though it seems like your nationality is American but that you have other heritage elements with which you identify. But "African" isn't a nationality and nor really is "African-American", I wouldn't have thought. And unless you have citizenship of Guatemala or Spain (or are in a position to claim citizenship but haven't) I'm not sure that really counts as a nationality either.

I'm not trying to be pedantic for the sake of it, but I feel like the question is a different one to the one the sample answers appear to be answering.

For my part, I am British (or English, if you want a narrower definition, albeit I consider myself British first and foremost). I am considering applying for dual-nationality with Spain and/or Portugal, but would make no pretensions to being either Spanish or Portuguese unless/until such citizenship were granted (which is unlikely, but possibly worth a try).

Ethnic background can be part of a nationality.

[Eldan]

Not really, no. Nationality means which nation(s) you are a citizen of. It's a legal term and distinct from ethnicity.

[Bartmanhomer]

Not really, no. Nationality means which nation(s) you are a citizen of. It's a legal term and distinct from ethnicity.

Really? Ok my mistake then. :eek:

[Traab]

So if its ethnic backgrounds im english, irish, scottish, french, dutch, and german. Thats just going back to my great grandparents. Ima Murcian! /fires off a shotgun from his pickup truck.

[Strigon]

Being unsure what the exact question is, my nationality is Canadian. And I love every part of it! (How do you fellows get by without poutine?)
However, my ancestry is pretty much exclusively from the British Isles. My grandfather, on my father's side, was as English as they come, and I believe my grandmother was, too. Fun note for you history buffs: he was a member of the Dieppe landing; the only survivor onboard his boat.

My mom's is also largely from that area, but she's more... I can't recall if she's Irish or Scottish, but she's one. And her mother is largely French.

[8BitNinja]

The definition of nationality is the status of belonging to a particular nation.

So the way I understand it is this.

I am an American. I live in the country that is the United States of America, so American is my nationality. However, I am also German because my ancestors are. That is my ancestry. I also have pasty white skin, so caucasian is my ethnicity.

Although I could be wrong.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe Americans have a different attitude to such things.

By Moradin's sweet beard, yes. Not in the technical sense in the term, but in the colloquial sense many people use nationality to describe descent/heritage, which is the usage I think Bartmanhomer was using. Confusing, but not uncommon.

I believe my own descent to be mostly French/English/Irish/German, but it isn't like anyone's keeping good records of where great-great-great-great grandma came from.

[Aedilred]

You could argue England, Scotland and Ireland are all different nations - probably Wales, too. Maybe even Cornwall. "Nation" doesn't quite mean the same as "Country".
Yeah, it's not entirely cut and dried, although each of those would probably consider itself a country as well if pushed (well, probably not Cornwall, except among certain fringe groups). You can have a supranational body which has a national identity in itself, and thus have "nested" nations, which I think is kind of the case in the UK: there are the four "home nations" but I'd consider "British" also a nationality.

In the US the most obviously analogous situation would be native Americans who were members of both their tribe (a nation, by self-definition) and with the USA, making them American as well. A case could also be made for the Mexican-Americans who are descendants of people who've lived in that area since it was Mexico, and still consider themselves Mexican at least in part. But the USA being otherwise a country of immigrants, I think there is a sense that the original nationality has been left behind in order to become American. For a couple of generations after emigration you can often get away with claiming multiple nationalities even where citizenship of the ancestral home has been allowed to slip away, but after a while it becomes a genealogical curiosity rather than a nationality. By my understanding of "nationality", at least.

To my mind, if you have no citizenship of a country, don't speak the language, own no property there, pay no taxes there and have never lived there (and in many cases haven't even visited it), you can't really lay claim to it as a nationality.


Someone from Northern Ireland may very well consider themselves Irish, and people from the Republic of Ireland probably wouldn't argue with him. Probably.
I am pretty sure that everyone born in Northern Ireland has automatic citizenship of the Republic as well, so they could fairly call themselves Irish without fear of contradiction.

[lio45]

I am considering applying for dual-nationality with Spain and/or Portugal, but would make no pretensions to being either Spanish or Portuguese unless/until such citizenship were granted (which is unlikely, but possibly worth a try).

That's something that has a chance of working...?!? Out of curiosity, what would be your arguments?

At the moment, my only nationality is Canadian, though I could get French citizenship through dad if I wanted (not really useful, now that I'm in a serious relationship on this continent).

Ethnically, "white".

Ancestry background: mostly Celtic Gallic, but also part Provençal/Italian, and likely a dash of German through a greatgrandma that was from Alsace-Lorraine.

[2D8HP]

I was born in Oakland, California (part of the Left Coast (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/11/08/which-of-the-11-american-nations-do-you-live-in/?utm_term=.520df9e1bebf), which is where I've slept most nights ever since I born in 1968.

As for ancestry:


When I worked 50 miles away in San Jose, California sometimes my co-workers would say I had a "strange accent" and ask me were I was from, I'd tell them Oakland but my dad migrated from New Jersey, and my mom from Orange County (My great-great-grandparents would be from what are now the Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland in the U.K., Kansas in the U.S.A., Germany, and Poland, so a Lutheran German married a Jewish Pole, who's daughter married an Anglican British-American, who's daughter married an Irish Catholic, that's the way of the U.S.A.). Many of my old co-workers commuted in from outside the metropolitan San Francisco Bay area, and often had what sounded to me like accents of the old Confederacy (SE USA and Texas), including one guy who commuted from Stockton and had a "Southern" accent, while his brother who lived in San Jose did not! The "inland" guys would be more likely to listen to "country" music, "inner-ring suburban" guys to "rock" music, and "inner-city" guys to "rhythm and blues".
Growing up I often heard people speaking derisively of "L.A." and southern California.

With the possible exception of "Appalachian" West Virginia, which seperated from "Tidewater" Virginia in the Nineteenth century, most of the state boundaries in the U.S.A. don't seem to map very well with what feel like different regions.

Some books I've read on regional cultural differences in the United States:

The Nine Nations of North America (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/07/03/where-do-borders-need-to-be-redrawn/nine-nations-of-north-america-30-years-later),
and the latter
American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America (https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2013/11/08/which-of-the-11-american-nations-do-you-live-in/),
but one is cited by other books and periodicals more often:
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion's_Seed) by David Hackett Fischer
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/David_Hackett_Fischer_-_Albion%27s_Seed_Four_British_Folkways_in_America. jpeg/220px-David_Hackett_Fischer_-_Albion%27s_Seed_Four_British_Folkways_in_America. jpeg

Which details how four different folkways in the United States got their starts from four different migrations:

East Anglia to Massachusetts:
The Exodus of the English Puritans (Pilgrims influenced the Northeastern United States' corporate and educational culture).

The South of England to Virginia:
Distressed Cavaliers and indentured Servants (Gentry influenced the Southern United States' plantation culture).

North Midlands to the Delaware Valley::
The Friends' Migration (Quakers influenced the Middle Atlantic and Midwestern United States' industrial culture).

Borderlands to the Backcountry:
The Flight from North Britain (Scotch-Irish, or border English, influenced the Western United States' ranch culture and the Southern United States' common agrarian culture).

Recommended
:smile:


:amused:

It seems that almost every American who has any great grandparents born in North America, is told of some "Indian" ancestry (usual "Cherokee"), perhaps as a way to claim roots?

I recall one episode of Finding Your Roots on PBS, when Henry Louis Gates, Jr., the host, tells that guest, "Wow, your the first person who's said that they were told that 'They're descended from an Indian princess', who really does have Native American ancestry. "

Almost always does the guest wind up crying, and says thank you, no matter what their ancestry.

I really, really doubt that any testing will show (since they're so close), but when asked about our family name, my father used to say, "If you're offering a drink it's Irish, but if you're asking for a dollar it's Scottish.", which I have since passed on.
Since I know that his mother came from Ireland, that's a pretty sure thing, but his father's father was born in the U.S.A. so who knows?

[Aedilred]

That's something that has a chance of working...?!? Out of curiosity, what would be your arguments?


Both countries operate a "right to return" policy for descendants of a certain community who were obliged to leave in a hurry in the late 15th century. I am provably descended from them, but there are a few more hoops to jump through than that, with an element of subjectivity in the process. In my case the hoops are somewhat higher and narrower than they would be for others.

It was something I was vaguely aware of when the policies started a few years ago, but didn't give any serious thought to doing it until recently, as dual nationality for both Britain and a mainland European country is about to become rather more significant than it has been of late.

[BWR]

Americans: If you claim to be a nationality other than the one on your passport(s), you will either confuse other people or slightly annoy them for claiming to be something you aren't (even if they know about this habit of yours). Exceptions can sometimes be made for parents' nationality, if you changed nationalities, or similar circumstances. If you wish to make a point about where your ancestors came from, please say something like "my ancestors came from X".


Norwegian-American here. Some iffy issues with that and I am increasingly of the opinion that giving up my American citizenship is a good idea. Mostly due to the arcane and outdated taxation laws that want you to pay on foreign earned income, with amounts that do not take into account that money amounts don't work the same everywhere or have changed in nearly 40 years. Partially because I frankly haven't felt American in over 20 years.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it's not entirely cut and dried, although each of those would probably consider itself a country as well if pushed (well, probably not Cornwall, except among certain fringe groups). You can have a supranational body which has a national identity in itself, and thus have "nested" nations, which I think is kind of the case in the UK: there are the four "home nations" but I'd consider "British" also a nationality.

The whole concept of nationality is really a 19th century invention. Ultimately a couple of villages across borders are like to be just as different as a couple of villages within the same borders. A nation is mostly a governing institution, much like empires, except it tries to vindicate its existence via a more-or-less arbitrary idea of people, language, and all that, which is then codified to make that arbitrary idea into reality.

Like, you could say I'm Finnish but that's just as much a thing as an American. I'm born under the Finnish government, would perhaps be more accurate. I'm born a Newlander, ad Karelian/Savonian by ancestry, though I also have relatively recent ancestors in lines of Wallons and Basques, and I'm a direct descendant of the Scottish kings (from the 1100's) in few of the more interesting lineages.

[Delicious Taffy]

I am a citizen of the United States of America, specifically Southern Illinois.

[Kalmageddon]

<------ It's right there under my avatar.
Ethnically, I'm Caucasian.

[Gastronomie]

Culturally and ethnically Japanese. My nation is so as well. Here it's really simple and straightforward (people from foreign countries are certainly increasing, but a vast majority of the citizens are all "Japanese" in every way), so these sorts of threads really interest me. Quite a lot of cultural differences.

[SirKazum]

When I saw the thread title I thought "HA! If he asked where I'm from I'd say 'Brazil', but since he asked about 'nationality' I've got two of them!" Because to me (and to most Brazilians, I guess), "nationality" means where you're a citizen of in some official capacity, and I have dual citizenship (Brazilian and Italian). Of course, being a country of immigrants, where your ancestors are from is also a big part of one's identity here, just like in the US - and, in that respect, I'm mostly Portuguese through both my grandfathers and Italian through both my grandmothers. There's probably a bit of mixing in there though, especially from the branches that have been in Brazil for longer. Of course, this family is getting even more mixed now, as my wife is Japanese-Brazilian - all four of her grandparents were born in Japan. We've got a rather varied immigrant community here, especially in São Paulo where I live.

[Scarlet Knight]

Americans: If you claim to be a nationality other than the one on your passport(s), you will either confuse other people or slightly annoy them for claiming to be something you aren't (even if they know about this habit of yours).


Yes, as an American I realize that we ask nationality to other Americans as a shortcut to background /culture .

I am an American of Italian descent. Italian traditions are what I often follow (eg Feast of the 7 Fishes).

Being Italian, my ancestors conquered or were conquered by almost everyone in the known world. If I had a DNA test I might find I was 1/8th Greek, 1/8th German, 1/8th Spanish, 1/8th Judean, 1/8th Egyptian, 1/8th Moor, 1/8th Ethiopian, and still 100% Italian as none of my family ever lived outside of Bari excluding service in the military.

[Peelee]

Americans: If you claim to be a nationality other than the one on your passport(s), you will either confuse other people or slightly annoy them for claiming to be something you aren't (even if they know about this habit of yours).

American and Austrian, then. Boutta hold both passports, too.

[Honest Tiefling]

Can confirm that everyone who isn't of Asian descent usually claims Native American heritage if they're American. I've been in social groups where I am in the vast minority for not claiming any. (According to family lore, some Native American guys had an interest in my Great-Great-Grandmother, but the family joke is that they wisely didn't pursue her.)

I really do not believe that Native Americans got so lucky as to have multiple families and get entangled into every. Single. Family. Tree.

[Kalmageddon]

Can confirm that everyone who isn't of Asian descent usually claims Native American heritage if they're American. I've been in social groups where I am in the vast minority for not claiming any. (According to family lore, some Native American guys had an interest in my Great-Great-Grandmother, but the family joke is that they wisely didn't pursue her.)

I really do not believe that Native Americans got so lucky as to have multiple families and get entangled into every. Single. Family. Tree.
I don't claim to know much about American culture, but claiming native American ancestry always struck me as a particularly obnoxious way of getting over your pervasive white guilt complex.
And within the context of de-contextualized, not really applicable social issues that your people export to Europe, I'm so glad that at least this behaviour is something we can't imitate, unless people around here start claiming Etruscan ancestry or something...

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't claim to know much about American culture, but claiming native American ancestry always struck me as a particularly obnoxious way of getting over your pervasive white guilt complex.

I don't really know if many African-Americans have white guilt, so I don't think it applies in all cases...Just many. I personally wonder how many times someone used the whole 'I have a native american grandmother' to get the interest of a lady and it just snowballed out of control. I mean, during certain eras and places there were 10 men for everyone woman so you had to get creative!


And within the context of de-contextualized, not really applicable social issues that your people export to Europe, I'm so glad that at least this behaviour is something we can't imitate, unless people around here start claiming Etruscan ancestry or something...

Tell that to Britain and it's claim to descent from Brutus. Or Ireland's claim to be descended from the Moors. Or Rome's claim to being descended from Troy. Or everyone's claim to be descended from the Greeks/Romans/Egyptians.

We learned it from YOU, Dad.

[Lemmy]

I'm an Earthican.

[Sobol]

Russian.
Got nobility and Don Cossacks among my ancestors.

[Peelee]

I'm an Earthican.

I do like their president...

[Scarlet Knight]

Can confirm that everyone who isn't of Asian descent usually claims Native American heritage if they're American. I've been in social groups where I am in the vast minority for not claiming any. (According to family lore, some Native American guys had an interest in my Great-Great-Grandmother, but the family joke is that they wisely didn't pursue her.)

I really do not believe that Native Americans got so lucky as to have multiple families and get entangled into every. Single. Family. Tree.

I can confirm that NO American I know claims Native American decent...of course, I'm from the east coast where Native Americans are rarer than hen's teeth. Maybe it's different in the Southwest or elsewhere.

[Razade]

I can confirm that NO American I know claims Native American decent...of course, I'm from the east coast where Native Americans are rarer than hen's teeth. Maybe it's different in the Southwest or elsewhere.

Me neither. And I've lived in pretty much every region of the U.S. Actually live in the Southwest atm where Native Americans aren't as rare. Actually lived near the Hopi Reservation where they were even more than uncommon. I've never met anyone who claimed to have Native American ancestry that couldn't prove it.

[Sermil]

I was born and live in Los Angeles, and I know almost no one who claims Native American ancestry either. Certainly I don't...

Ancestry?

My grandfather was from Russia; his father made the mistake of being part of the Provisional Government after the first half of the Russian revolution. After Lenin took power, they got out in a hurry.

Other ancestors were mostly British and British-by-way-of-Canada-and-Virginia. Fun family fact: During the American Revolution, we supported the legitimate government, not this... rebel scum. In fact, the brother of one of my direct ancestors helped Benedict Arnold switch sides -- which explains how we ended up in Canada shortly after the American Revolution. Going to 4th of July shows always feels a little weird to me.

[An Enemy Spy]

I actually do have Native American heritage. My Grandpa is a member of the Choctaw Tribe. I however, am mostly Irish.

[2D8HP]

I can confirm that NO American I know claims Native American decent...of course, I'm from the east coast where Native Americans are rarer than hen's teeth. Maybe it's different in the Southwest or elsewhere.


It's very common where I live in California, more so among black Americans than white Americans (I assume because more whites know of immigrant ancestors).

Another oddity is how many claim British, Irish, and Italian ancestors, when according to 19th century immigration records most immigrants spoke German, which few cite.

I think most of the Germans (though it was many different countries than), settled in the mid-west so maybe that's why few claim that ancestry here in San Francisco.

In San Francisco there's lots of "ethnic clubs" (Armenian, Finnish etc.). My old boss had his retirement dinner at the "Irish Cultural Center", despite having both his parents being born in the Philippines, and I've had a Christmas dinner at the "Italian Athletic Club" despite my not knowing of any Italian ancestors. Unions don't have a parade on Labor day anymore but for some reason do march on "Saint Patrick's day", which was the "Irish day" (Columbus day was the "Italian day"), the plurality of guys in my union in the Saint Patrick's day parade have Chinese surname's.

Regarding "nationality", in the 19th century in meant what language you spoke so someone would be "Italian" or "German" despite those not being unified countries yet, there where also Finnish and Polish "nations" despite being part of the Russian Empire.

It gets more comfusing in that there were "Irish nationalists" most of whom spoke English not Irish (Gaelic) as there primary language.

"Nationality", has long had three different meanings:

1) Citizenship (those who all reside in an area with the same government).

2) Linguistics (those who speak the same language).

3) Ancestry (those who are descended from people who spoke a certain language).

"Nationality", "Ethnicity", and "Race" have often been used interchangeably (the "French race" etc), and have also have had different meanings. Like most means of distinguishing people it's confusing.

[Aedilred]

Tell that to Britain and it's claim to descent from Brutus. Or Ireland's claim to be descended from the Moors. Or Rome's claim to being descended from Troy. Or everyone's claim to be descended from the Greeks/Romans/Egyptians.

We learned it from YOU, Dad.

Nobody in Britain claims or seriously believes that they're descended from Brutus in a familial line, or even that Brutus ever existed. Well, ok, some people probably do, but it's sufficiently niche that I'd imagine most people haven't even heard of Brutus. It was taken moderately seriously for a couple of hundred years in the late Middle Ages/early modern era then people realised it was silly and dropped it. And I think even if the Romans did believe their ancestors had originally migrated from Troy, they nevertheless considered themselves Roman first, foremost and preferably only, and took pride in that, rather than telling everyone they were Trojan or Trojan-Roman at every opportunity.

In any case, there's still a difference of scale, I think. Europe's mythologised origin stories based around eponymous culture heroes are origin stories for a whole people or culture. At best, a noble/royal family might concoct a legendary genealogy for themselves to prove their right to rule everyone else. And in modern times nobody really takes that seriously either. Queen Elizabeth II doesn't claim to be a descendant of Brutus, because even if she did believe it, everyone would laugh at her for doing so. Indeed, our royal families have generally done their best in the modern era to dissociate themselves from their non-native ancestry, rather than playing it up.

Whereas in the US it seems to be something that almost everybody does at least to an extent, and more importantly believes in. Whether it's true or not, people take it seriously. And it's everyone at an individual/family level, not just a handful of elite families transparently trying to burnish their status, or an entire culture trying to find an origin story for itself (which the US does as well, but it doesn't preclude the individuals doing it too). If it was something originally borrowed from European practice, it seems something got lost in translation. So to us it looks a bit odd - even risible, depending on circumstances.

[Keltest]

Nobody in Britain claims or seriously believes that they're descended from Brutus in a familial line, or even that Brutus ever existed. Well, ok, some people probably do, but it's sufficiently niche that I'd imagine most people haven't even heard of Brutus. It was taken moderately seriously for a couple of hundred years in the late Middle Ages/early modern era then people realised it was silly and dropped it. And I think even if the Romans did believe their ancestors had originally migrated from Troy, they nevertheless considered themselves Roman first, foremost and preferably only, and took pride in that, rather than telling everyone they were Trojan or Trojan-Roman at every opportunity.

In any case, there's still a difference of scale, I think. Europe's mythologised origin stories based around eponymous culture heroes are origin stories for a whole people or culture. At best, a noble/royal family might concoct a legendary genealogy for themselves to prove their right to rule everyone else. And in modern times nobody really takes that seriously either. Queen Elizabeth II doesn't claim to be a descendant of Brutus, because even if she did believe it, everyone would laugh at her for doing so. Indeed, our royal families have generally done their best in the modern era to dissociate themselves from their non-native ancestry, rather than playing it up.

Whereas in the US it seems to be something that almost everybody does at least to an extent, and more importantly believes in. Whether it's true or not, people take it seriously. And it's everyone at an individual/family level, not just a handful of elite families transparently trying to burnish their status, or an entire culture trying to find an origin story for itself (which the US does as well, but it doesn't preclude the individuals doing it too). If it was something originally borrowed from European practice, it seems something got lost in translation. So to us it looks a bit odd - even risible, depending on circumstances.

Its a combination of America being a very young culture and a nation of immigrants. A non-trivial portion of our population has come from another culture within the past generation or two, and are heavily influenced by that. Its as much a part of their identity as being American is. On top of that, modern America wasn't ever really not a nation of immigrants. the founding fathers were mostly British, but you had groups from all over, and all of that became "America". There just wasn't a big unified culture for people to assimilate into and identify as, so we substituted it with the ones we or our ancestors left behind, and never really got over that.

[2D8HP]

....as, so we substituted it with the ones we or our ancestors left behind, and never really got over that.


It's even weirder than that.

During the American Civil War of the 1860's, they were claims that the Confederates had "Norman" ancestors which were superior to the "Saxon" ancestors of the "Yankees".

People is crazy.

[T-Mick]

I'm pretty much all French. Comes with the territory, I suppose. I should learn the language.

[FinnLassie]

So Finnish it hurts, by citizenship and heritage. I know my ancestry down to 1200s at best, and apart from some odd Swedes and Russians, I'm Finnish. Of course other people in the family line have gotten other blood in them as well, but as far as my lineage goes... so, so very Finnish.

Were I to specify, though, I am half Karelian and half Western Finnish (Satakunta/Pirkanmaa region). IIRC the genetic code between easterners and westerners in Finland is more distant from each other than Swedes and Germans - someone please correct me if I'm wrong. In any case, they are still distinct from each other.

It's an interesting mix of two cultures as well. Karelian side of my family is very chatty, weddings and funerals have pretty much the same jolly atmosphere (you guys should've seen the party we had in December...). Touch is also much more important in that side. The western culture is on the more timid side, and I can clearly see the difference. Fewer words, but still full of meaning. Silence isn't awkward in the east at all, but the amount of time people not talking on my mother's side is far longer, but still nothing makes it awkward.

I'm an unfortunate mix of the two in a way - I'm too cheerful to fit in with my mother's side, and somewhat too shy to freely mingle in with my dad's folk.

[Scarlet Knight]

Your discussion of eastern vs western Fiinish reminded me of a program I saw on Italian Americans.

It stated that during the great wave of immigration, most Italians who came to America were told they were Italians once they got here. Prior to that, every Italian just naturally referred to themselves based on their regions ( eg Sicilian , Florentine , Barese, etc.)

[SirKazum]

Your discussion of eastern vs western Fiinish reminded me of a program I saw on Italian Americans.

It stated that during the great wave of immigration, most Italians who came to America were told they were Italians once they got here. Prior to that, every Italian just naturally referred to themselves based on their regions ( eg Sicilian , Florentine , Barese, etc.)

I'm not sure about when that wave was, but if I'm right (about late 1800's), Italy as a country was really recent, and most people from there probably didn't give it much thought from a cultural standpoint. In fact, there's a similar phenomenon with Arabic immigrants that came to Brazil - when the earliest and most significant wave came (early 20th century), the country they officially came from was Turkey, so until this day they're colloquially called "Turkish" (turcos). However, none of them ever spoke Turkish, and the places they come from are currently known as Syria and (mostly) Lebanon, designations that do reflect those places' ancestral culture pretty well, so they tend to say they're Syrian or Lebanese (or "Syrian-Lebanese" if they're not sure which). Despite most people of Arabic descent (even recent immigrants) being colloquially known as "turcos", *actually* Turkish people (i.e. those from the region currently known as Turkey, with a Turkish culture, or their descendants) are unheard of in Brazil.

[Vinyadan]

The Italian thing doesn't sound impossible, but it's also pretty unlikely. The word Italian has been around since the times of Boccaccio at least. They knew they were Italians, and what country they were from. However, it's possible that, when asked about their place of origin, they thought of their town, and gave the answer they would have given if they had still been in Italy.
A secondary reason may have been that it's pretty hard to understand how the place which is your home and the city around which you have gravitated your whole life are just empty names, if you go far enough.

Fun fact, north Italians mostly emigrated to South America, and south Italians to North America.

[Aedilred]

Italy as a concept had been around since antiquity. The Romans called it Italia. The title of "King of Italy", though often only titular, existed throughout the Middle Ages and early modern period, and was also used by Napoleon. So while there was no state of Italy for much of the period (most particularly between 1815 and 1860, when it didn't officially exist at all), "Italy" and "Italian" would have been familiar terms.

However it would not surprise me to learn that many Italians did not think of themselves as Italian. There was a wide variety of cultures and a Sicilian or Neapolitan might have considered a Lombard or a Venetian to be as much of a foreigner as a Catalan, Albanian, or Provencal. In that sense, the idea of all those peoples as "Italian" in perception was probably one of foreigners looking in rather than Italians necessarily thinking of themselves as a unified entity (though, clearly, many did, hence the nationalist unification of Italy in 1859-60). I expect it was an educated middle-class thing and not relevant to the majority of urban proletariat or peasants.

[Scarlet Knight]

Yes, the impression I got from the show was that if you asked an Italian "What are you?" in the late 1800s- early 1900's, they would answer "Italian" only in the way we might answer "European". It would be technically correct but felt it did not provide any REAL information the way an answer like "Roman" would. However, during the same time period a Parisian would say "French" and only answer "Parisian" if more info was requested.

[Kalmageddon]

In a way, it's still like that. It's rare for an italian to feel represented by their country so whenever they speak proudly of their origin it's likely they will speak about their region or hometown.
Italian unity was imposed to the italians by the aristocratic elite, not by the people. And it shows, even today.

[Sajiri]

I am first generation* Australian, but my mum's side is from England. My dad's side is new zealand, and has scottish and irish in there but Im not quite sure how far back it goes. I know my great grandmother was apparently portuguese, and even though I have very pale skin, apparently my features match an ancestry in Portugal (Or so Im told. I havent met anyone from there to compare myself to)

*Fun fact, I apparently had an ancestor who came over to Australia as a convict when the country was first settled, because he refused to hold a gate open for some official person (I've been told it was a town crier, did they still exist then? I have no idea)

[Peelee]

I am first generation* Australian, but my mum's side is from England.

What crime did she commit?

[anjxed]

Filipino. But both parents are ethnic Chinese, mom might have some mixed blood though as her family immigrated to my country a long time ago before WW2 started I think.

[thamolas]

Technically, it is estimated that most (more than half of) "white" Americans (North, Central, and South), unless their parents' families immigrated within the past 100 years or so, have some African and/or Native American in their family trees. Most of them don't know it, because most Americans don't know their family histories. There are DNA tests now that allow you to dig deep into your family's ethnic history. I'm definitely curious!

Ancestry I know about: Irish, German Jewish, Welsh, Seminole, African American (freed slaves), and Scottish. As a blue-eyed, freckly white-skinned person with a generically "English-sounding" name, I never would have guessed my lineage if I hadn't researched it.

[Havelocke]

I am also from the USA. Most "Americans" I know also identify with their State or Region they live in. Having joined the Military (and since separated from it) I have moved around the country and lived in several regions of it. I am originally from Maine on the East Coast but have lived in Alaska (beautiful!) as well as the mid-west (Missouri currently). Ethnicity would be Caucasian due to English ancestry. One of my father's hobbies is Genealogy, he has a list somewhere. I am distantly related to an American President from the 1800's however I do not know which one.

[Peelee]

I am also from the USA. Most "Americans" I know also identify with their State or Region they live in.

To be fair, America is 3,797,000 mi². It just makes a lot of sense here, because the U.S. is freaking huge. Italy is 116,000 mi², roughly the size of Arizona (114,000 mi²).

[SirKazum]

If you're getting into genealogy, my brother was big into that for a while, and he tracked our ancestry back to a bunch of old kings all over Europe and beyond. I understand that's really not that big a deal though - most ordinary people will tend to have an enormous amount of descendants spread over a vast geographical area as the generations pile up, and nobles and kings tend to be particularly prolific in that regard (and also tend to be related to pretty much all other nobles and kings they may have heard of). So it figures that most people in the world actually have royal blood, and from a variety of lineages at that.

[Fach]

I'm from Japan. Happy to see somebody else here playing D&D.

[JobsforFun]

Ethnic wise I am Irish and German with a little American Indian. But I live in America *FIRES SHOTGUN*

[BWR]

I'll have to amend my previous criteria for nationality.
While your nationality is what is on the official papers, there are some gray areas. If you have lived a significant part of your life in one area and more or less identify as a member of that community and nationality, then you can make a case for belonging to that nation.

[thorgrim29]

That's a surprisingly complicated question to answer in Canada. The Québecois are recognized as a nation within Canada (which means that the french-canadian people in Ontario or the Acadians are not included, also other people in Quebec may or may not be included ; this is an issue for several reasons but politics so...). Also the various native peoples are collectively called the First Nations here so you have the Mohawk Nation, the Alconquin Nation, Cree Nation etc.... Around 650 in total.

So personally I am both Canadian and Québecois and I pretty much identify with both.

[2D8HP]

Quebec...


Apropos of little, when I visited Canada in the late 1980's as a monolingual American (I only speak american english) I actually felt more comfortable in French speaking Montreal then in English speaking Ottawa. The Quebecois pretty much drove and otherwise behaved like Americans. Ottawa? The city felt like a film set, just too clean.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah Ottawa is weird like that. The rest of Ontario is more "real", though I have a patriotic obligation to point out that ontarians are boring and don't know how to drink

[lio45]

However, during the same time period a Parisian would say "French" and only answer "Parisian" if more info was requested.

Ironically, that example might be poorly chosen; I've met enough Parisians who made a point of stating they were Parisian, not "French", when asked where they were from. :)

Good point thorgrim, obviously my actual answer should have been "Québécois". At the time I just didn't feel the nuance wouldn't be lost on most people in the thread, but anyway.

[Vinyadan]

To be fair, America is 3,797,000 mi². It just makes a lot of sense here, because the U.S. is freaking huge. Italy is 116,000 mi², roughly the size of Arizona (114,000 mi²).

You need to consider how important time is in shaping culture. If Arizona had been founded 20-30 years ago after 1,300 years in which its territory was divided among independent states, Arizonians (?) might find their cities to be more meaningful to their identity than Arizona.

[Aedilred]

Ironically, that example might be poorly chosen; I've met enough Parisians who made a point of stating they were Parisian, not "French", when asked where they were from. :)


As opposed to almost everyone in the rest of France, who in my experience will insist on making clear they're not Parisian.

[Yklikt]

What crime did she commit?

That sounds racist

[Peelee]

That sounds racist

Just in case you're serious, I was making a joke about the Brits using Australia as a penal colony back in the day.

[Yklikt]

Just in case you're serious, I was making a joke about the Brits using Australia as a penal colony back in the day.

Oh. I see.

[Cicciograna]

Count another Italian here, even though I live in the US now, and I don't think I'll go back to Italy, so I'll probably give rise to the American branch of my family, I guess.
Pretty proud of my neapolitan roots...even though they are not the purest: a branch of my ancestors comes from Spain.

Some years ago I was tallying all the italians on this forum, and sorta created a Facebook group to keep in contact.

[Peelee]

Count another Italian here, even though I live in the US now, and I don't think I'll go back to Italy, so I'll probably give rise to the American branch of my family, I guess.
Pretty proud of my neapolitan roots...even though they are not the purest: a branch of my ancestors comes from Spain.

Some years ago I was tallying all the italians on this forum, and sorta created a Facebook group to keep in contact.

I love Italians.

So, back in the early aughts, my dad died rather suddenly and unexpectedly. My grandfathers died before my parents had even met, one grandmother died when I was still a toddler, and my last grandmother had died three years before my dad, but she was in Austria and I'd only met her a couple times when I was really young. So I'd never really had much experience with death of family members, and one of the things I didn't expect but apparently is a thing is that friends will drop everything and come from all around to bring food. And since this was a pretty surprising event, some tried to cook up a quick dish, but a lot of people brought things like Arby's or other takeout. Totally understandable (especially since I'm pretty sure a lot of them never cooked to begin with and mostly ate out).

Well, there was one family that we were very close with - my parents were good friends with their parents, my brother was good friends with one of their kids about the same age, i was friends with two of their daughters about my same age, so we did a lot of things together and were family friends in several ways. The parents were both American-born, but pureblooded Italian, and the grandparents had immigrated from Italy. The parents were both professionals - one was a neurosurgeon, the other was a news reporter, and they were both indisposed at the time, so the grandmother took it upon herself to come on behalf of the family.

She shows up with this massive lasagna, and it looks just gorgeous. Far better than anything I've seen in any restaurant, smells like heaven itself, meat and cheese just exploding out of it. And the grandmother, she looks absolutely mortified. She's almost sobbing, hanging her head in shame, just keeps saying apologizing in her thickly accented English, practically begging us to absolve her of the horrendous grievance she dared visit upon us. Because, with the suddenness of it all, she didn't have time to make her own noodles, and had to resort to store-bought.

I loved that sweet old lady.

[Gwynfrid]

As opposed to almost everyone in the rest of France, who in my experience will insist on making clear they're not Parisian.

Here's a Frenchman to confirm this. :smallamused:

On top of that, a very large percentage of Parisians will actually tell you something along the lines of, "I live in Paris but I'm actually from X", X being whatever region their family comes from.

Regarding the notion of "nationality", the French will equate it with citizenship. It's interesting to see the various views on that term, as expressed on this thread. Of course, France sees itself as just one nation, as compared to the UK (as in, the Six Nations Championship for example).

[SaintRidley]

It's even weirder than that.

During the American Civil War of the 1860's, they were claims that the Confederates had "Norman" ancestors which were superior to the "Saxon" ancestors of the "Yankees".

People is crazy.

Post Civil War the South switched its mythology to sympathizing with the conquered Saxons and viewing the North as oppressive to their culture like the Normans were.

Weird, right? It's that Lost Cause crap and an unwillingness to admit that maybe the South's culture of owning people based on race was wrong and not worth fighting for after all.