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Xanos
2007-07-31, 09:23 AM
Running a campaign, and my group's very.. Anti-powergaming. They're pretty nerfed, and their characters aren't really the best fighters.
The plot's set up, so they need a guide. I want him to be a very decent killing-machine, with enough hp to take a punch.
All books allowed, what should I make him? Spellcaster's the best to fit into the plot.

Guinea Anubis
2007-07-31, 09:36 AM
Try looking at a Duskblade.

Xanos
2007-07-31, 09:40 AM
I did, problem is: Group's already got a duskblade.

Swooper
2007-07-31, 09:46 AM
Warblade is pretty solid. Feel free to take note of the build in my sig if you want, even though it's potential hasn't kicked in yet (hint: Stormguard Warrior at 6th, Robilar's Gambit at 12th). If you want a spellcaster... Cleric? Or must it be an arcanist? A damagedealing arcanist could also be a warmage, although those are generally considered weak because they 'only' deal damage.

Knowing the group composition would help as well, some more info would too.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-31, 09:50 AM
Rogue for the sneak attack? Has a pretty decent damage output at 5th level.

Xanos
2007-07-31, 09:51 AM
Faerūn, group's consisting of a Druid, a Duskblade and a Barbarian / Ranger. All of them have terrible combat-characters, but insist on combatting every five feet.
They're about to enter a castle of skulls and flames, and I'm going to throw the NPC in combat with a couple of cultists, relying on the party to help him out in combat - thus being in their debt.
Basicly looking for firepower, but also being able to take a few hits for the party (the barbarian has 50 hp at level 5, and wears leather armor :/).

Quietus
2007-07-31, 10:22 AM
Skulls and flames? Screams undead to me. I'd go for a combat-oriented cleric; He hasn't come fully into his own yet, but with good stats and a decent build, he'll be able to dish out some damage while providing some healing. Or, if you don't expect the game to go much beyond level 10, you could look at running a Fighter with high con/strength. Lots of HP, and focus less on needing to survive forever than murdering everything horribly.

Xanos
2007-07-31, 10:25 AM
Skulls and flames? Screams undead to me. I'd go for a combat-oriented cleric; He hasn't come fully into his own yet, but with good stats and a decent build, he'll be able to dish out some damage while providing some healing. Or, if you don't expect the game to go much beyond level 10, you could look at running a Fighter with high con/strength. Lots of HP, and focus less on needing to survive forever than murdering everything horribly.
Actually - demons :). But I think I'ma gonna go with a Warblade.

Tweekinator
2007-07-31, 10:27 AM
Faerūn, group's consisting of a Druid, a Duskblade and a Barbarian / Ranger. All of them have terrible combat-characters, but insist on combatting every five feet.

How is that possible? I mean, with those classes, you'd almost have to try to be bad at fighting.

And for your spellcasting, smackdown NPC you may want to look into Cleric.

Swooper
2007-07-31, 10:31 AM
You could give the wussy barbarian/ranger a hint with a leap attacking shock trooper lion totem barbarian (pounce won't matter till 6th level though).

TWF rogue/swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw (I think? Don't have CS myself), Telling Blow and a keen rapier and a keen kukri might offer some nice damage.

A paladin could work too against undead, although smite evil is a very limited source of damage at that level. Extra smiting will help. Some divine feats might help boost it more.

I'm thinking melee though. Right. You want a caster. Uhm.. You could go for a full batman wizard. Although those tend to hog the spotlight and that's not fun when an NPC does it (trust me, I've played in a campaign where the PCs were extras in a story about DMPCs that were many, many levels above us). Maybe just an evoker then, with some form of battlefield control as well.

Really, there's plenty of ways out there to put togeather a useful character.

Swooper
2007-07-31, 10:33 AM
Actually - demons :). But I think I'ma gonna go with a Warblade.
Yay, my idea got noticed and (likely) used!





Does that mean I get a cookie? :smalltongue:

Xanos
2007-07-31, 10:58 AM
You could give the wussy barbarian/ranger a hint with a leap attacking shock trooper lion totem barbarian (pounce won't matter till 6th level though).

TWF rogue/swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw (I think? Don't have CS myself), Telling Blow and a keen rapier and a keen kukri might offer some nice damage.

A paladin could work too against undead, although smite evil is a very limited source of damage at that level. Extra smiting will help. Some divine feats might help boost it more.

I'm thinking melee though. Right. You want a caster. Uhm.. You could go for a full batman wizard. Although those tend to hog the spotlight and that's not fun when an NPC does it (trust me, I've played in a campaign where the PCs were extras in a story about DMPCs that were many, many levels above us). Maybe just an evoker then, with some form of battlefield control as well.

Really, there's plenty of ways out there to put togeather a useful character.Yea, it'll be used. It's from Tome of Battle, right?
/Cookie

daggaz
2007-07-31, 11:01 AM
Your going to make a tricked out NPC for the sole purpose of oneupping and outshining your regular group members? Just to teach them "how its done?"

Erm... yeah, sounds real fun to me... WHy not just let them continue the way they are, maybe throw in a few enemies of varying PC toughness to give them a few hints, but otherwise pull the punches and keep the powerlevel at around their level, so everybody can continue having fun playing the game the way they are playing the game?

Just a thought..

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-07-31, 11:11 AM
try a binder, then buy some plate armor, and some heavy shields. Then bind your self to folcar, lighting bolt once a round, sit there with around 23 ac andblast away, leaving them nice and toasty for the rest of the party.

valadil
2007-07-31, 11:12 AM
As long as they're equally nerfy there's no need to show them how its done. Playing gimped characters can be fun when there's no powergamer telling you you're playing wrong.

Tweekinator
2007-07-31, 11:13 AM
Well, you said they were combat nerfed and kept attacking things. Are they decently built for combat and just make poor tactical decisions, or are the characters the equivalent of enraged, frantically swinging retards when it comes to combat? :smallwink:

Tweekinator
2007-07-31, 11:16 AM
As long as they're equally nerfy there's no need to show them how its done. Playing gimped characters can be fun when there's no powergamer telling you you're playing wrong.

Except if these are violently inclined characters who are bad at fighting, how did they reach level 4ish? There's got be some competent, grizzled orc out there who would be more than willing to hand a trio of adventurers their collective ass.
On a platter.

Xanos
2007-07-31, 11:18 AM
Well, you said they were combat nerfed and kept attacking things. Are they decently built for combat and just make poor tactical decisions, or are the characters the equivalent of enraged, frantically swinging retards when it comes to combat? :smallwink:

A bit of both. They're more or less trying to suck, at least they're not playing to their full potentional - but I'm not all too sure.
My plan's to throw the NPC in, kick some butt, and then have him leave just before the battle with the BBEG.. BBED.. Whatever - so, if they're getting their behinds handed to them, he can assist them with the fight.
I'll make sure, of course, that he doesn't kill everything and outshines the party. He'll have his reasons for not going full out, or swinging at everything.

Freelance Henchman
2007-07-31, 11:20 AM
You could make an NPC thats even worse at fighting, but he is obviously vital to the plot (because he's the only one who knows the way to the l00tz). Unfortunately he's even more belligerent than your players and needs serious protection, which your players may not be able to provide adequately. I dunno, it may show them that making chars intentionally bad at fighting has its drawbacks.

lord_khaine
2007-07-31, 11:28 AM
i must say i think this is a bad idea, there are few things more annoyinng to the pc than a more powerfull npc that suddenly shows up and follow them around.
if they are so weak in combat, but suck equaly much then just lower the challenge rating of their opponents

Tweekinator
2007-07-31, 11:35 AM
i must say i think this is a bad idea, there are few things more annoyinng to the pc than a more powerfull npc that suddenly shows up and follow them around.
if they are so weak in combat, but suck equaly much then just lower the challenge rating of their opponents

Except it seems that these characters are not only poor combatants, but very belligerent as well.

Since they seem to enjoy picking fights unnecessarily, try placing an NPC who is quite capable of killing all them in their path to where they will be very tempted to assault him. Then, have the NPC proceed to easily defeat, not kill, the entire party. If possible, don't make him a tricked out, super-optimized guy, just someone who fights for a living and is good at what he does. Maybe that will make them think twice about picking fights when they are really bad at it.

Making characters who shine outside of combat is fine, but when they purposely make poor combatants and then attack unnecessarily, they should feel some consequences and not feel secure in the power of plot to protect them.

Yakk
2007-07-31, 11:54 AM
Running a campaign, and my group's very.. Anti-powergaming. They're pretty nerfed, and their characters aren't really the best fighters.
The plot's set up, so they need a guide. I want him to be a very decent killing-machine, with enough hp to take a punch.
All books allowed, what should I make him? Spellcaster's the best to fit into the plot.

Scale the plot and challenges to the party's talents and power?

Provide equipment and/or mechanics that allows the characters to develop into something more powerful?

The characters are not playing the "how powerful can I make my character" game. Respect that choice.

Do not create a DMPC that outshines the PCs.

Practically, even a 5th level Ranger can be an epic hero with the right opponents.

There is the trick of teaching your characters to figure out when to retreat and when to rush in headlong. Note that you do not want to teach your party to be overly cautious: nothing sucks more than a party who finds the dungeon you kitted out, looks at it, and says "I'm not going down there, that'd be stupid. Anyone for a beer?"

Run combat simulations using their characters (you play both sides). Figure out what challenge drains the right fraction of resources using non-brilliant tactics. Use that as the base CR of your encounters, boosting it up and down as needed (the old "some harder, some easier than normal mix"), and give out the XP you should. Or you could just start out with easy encounters and ramp it up.

If they learn to make more effective characters, the fights they will be up against will have increased CR, which will boost the rate they gain levels. :)

Give decent clues as to how dangerous an encounter: a pitch black plated knight mounted on a large, winged serpant, escorted by 100 large beastial humanoids and 5 blood-red cloaked horsemen, should be a dangerous encounter -- there is no point putting an encounter out there like that unless it is dangerous. :)


Basicly looking for firepower, but also being able to take a few hits for the party (the barbarian has 50 hp at level 5, and wears leather armor :/).

Perfect Barbarian -- leather and hide! Time to have the party fight a monster that drops Wyvern-hide armor: (character level*2) temporary HP that refresh between battles, a ACP of -0, +5 max dex, considered light armor for movement purposes and medium for other purposes.

Now the level 5 Barbarian has 60 HP and 1 more AC and still looks and feels like the character concept the player wanted.

Ie, if the characters are not min-maxing, provide them with items that fit their character concept and make them good enough to solve the problem, rather than making the characters redundant.

Bassetking
2007-07-31, 03:07 PM
If you're looking for a flavorful-fun Melee-build NPC that your party won't forget in a hurry, consider a Thri-kreen Barbarian with Boots of Springing and Striding. Give 'em Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and a 10' reach weapon.

No, this build isn't optimized, but this Bouncy-Bug will be long remembered for his hit-and-run tactics.

BCOVertigo
2007-07-31, 07:36 PM
If you're looking for a flavorful-fun Melee-build NPC that your party won't forget in a hurry, consider a Thri-kreen Barbarian with Boots of Springing and Striding. Give 'em Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and a 10' reach weapon.

No, this build isn't optimized, but this Bouncy-Bug will be long remembered for his hit-and-run tactics.

I'm doing that but instead of the barbarian and feats, levels in swordsage. Very fun stuff.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-31, 07:41 PM
You could play ultratank and go straight Knight.

Chronos
2007-07-31, 08:49 PM
Basicly looking for firepower, but also being able to take a few hits for the party (the barbarian has 50 hp at level 5, and wears leather armor :/).You say that as if it's low. If we assume that he's a Barbarian 4 / Ranger 1, and that his first level was Barbarian, then the average from the rolls would be 36 (any other assumptions would make the average even lower). If he has 50 HP, then that tells me that he's got about a +3 con bonus, meaning that the player probably put his second-best ability score into con (his best being strength). What would you expect a player to do to get more HP than that?

Drider
2007-08-01, 12:51 PM
how would a druid be bad at combat?
DM: there are some orcs over there
Druid: i wonder what i can wild shape into?
DM: a bear maybe?
Druid: NAY, I SHALL BECOME A...WAR PIDGEON
Pidgeon: *starts humming batman theme song as it flies at the orcs*
*1.5 rounds later*
barbarian/rogue holding his teammates bodies yelling "WHYYYYY?! IF ONLY HE BECAME A FERAL HOUSE CAT!!!" before being defeated by orcs

Tweekinator
2007-08-01, 01:47 PM
how would a druid be bad at combat?
DM: there are some orcs over there
Druid: i wonder what i can wild shape into?
DM: a bear maybe?
Druid: NAY, I SHALL BECOME A...WAR PIDGEON
Pidgeon: *starts humming batman theme song as it flies at the orcs*
*1.5 rounds later*
barbarian/rogue holding his teammates bodies yelling "WHYYYYY?! IF ONLY HE BECAME A FERAL HOUSE CAT!!!" before being defeated by orcs

That counts as PC suicide, not a druid being poor at combat.

puppyavenger
2007-08-01, 04:21 PM
Are these the WOW fighting mentality players or the "Kill the obvios high level quest givers," Pc's if the later than yes they do need a guid.