Best Assassin build?

[sflame56]

I love playing sneaky stealthy characters in games like Fallout and Elder Scrolls and I was wondering how to make the best sneaky character. I was looking around and saw shadow monk and its cool abilities and ki moves where it can cast the silence spell. To make a room void of all noise as you go in and slaughter as many enemies as you can alone without making a noise is the coolest thing ever. Would a rouge assassin and shadow monk combo be good for this or are there any better options? What feats would you want to take or would you focus on stats first? What would the build be for a ranged version of this and a melee one? What would you do to make sure you stay hidden kill after kill?

[Corran]

The best assassin build has invisibility.

ps: Good feats for assassins: Alert, lucky.

[djreynolds]

The best assassin build has invisibility.

ps: Good feats for assassins: Alert, lucky.

Yes, invisibility and even pass without a trace makes gaining that surprise round easier.

You know a grassland druid has access to both spells and wildshape. A mouse may never be noticed, and then bam, bonus action, and assassinate.

Druid, 3 levels worth could be worth it everyone wants some wisdom and grassland seems appropriate... cheetahs stalking prey

[Dr. Cliché]

The first thing I'd say is that, if I wanted to play an assassin, I'd never actually go beyond lv3 in the Assassin class.

Firstly, because Lv3 is basically when you get all the stuff that's actually useful (with the possible exception of Death Strike, but I'll be buggered if I have to get to that level in Assassin), namely Assassinate. Indeed, most of the stuff beyond that is much better replicated by magic. So, if I get to lv9, I can spend 25gp and 7 days(!!) to create a new identity for myself. Leaving aside for now that trying to do that would probably result in the other players throwing a Monster Manual at your head, which sounds better: spending 7 days crafting a new identity (for 9 levels in Assassin) or creating a new identity for free whenever you want (with 2 levels in Warlock and the Mask of Many Faces Invocation)?


To make a room void of all noise as you go in and slaughter as many enemies as you can alone without making a noise is the coolest thing ever.

Just make sure you're being paid to kill all those chaps. No point giving your services away for free. :smallamused:


Would a rouge assassin and shadow monk combo be good for this or are there any better options?

Rogue/Shadow Monk would work fine. In fact, someone is using that combination in a game I'm in at the moment -
so far it's worked really well for them.

Other combinations I'd consider:
Rogue/Warlock - This would be my pick for a more 'magical' assassin:
- You get access to Invocations like the aforementioned Mask of Many Faces (Disguise Self at will is awsome for an assassin), as well as Devil's Sight (allowing you to see into both mundane and magical darkness).
- It gives you access to spells like Darkness, Invisibility, Hex, Misty Step, Suggestion and Dimension Door.
- It gives you a powerful ranged attack that never runs out of ammunition and which isn't reliant on a bulky weapon.
- You can choose between Pact of the Blade (which lets you conjure a melee weapon out of thin air) or Pact of the Chain (which gives you in invisible imp to scout out your target and watch your back).

If you're interested in this, I'd also recommend checking out the Hexblade UA: https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/20170213_Wizrd_Wrlck_UAv2_i48nf.pdf
(In addition to the Hexblade Patron, there are also additional options for Invocations)

Another consideration would be a Wizard (Bladesinger) or Sorcerer. I don't think they're quite as good as Warlocks, but they give you a lot more flexibility in terms of spells.

Regardless of which build I went for, I'd only ever invest 3 levels in Rogue (see above) and put the rest into the other class.

However, one other thing to consider is that you don't have to take the Assassin class to be an assassin, if you see what I mean. You could easily play, say, a Wizard assassin, who teleports into people's rooms and disintegrates them while they're asleep.


What feats would you want to take or would you focus on stats first?

It would probably depend on the exact build, but my instinct would be to lean towards getting stats first. Basically, I'd only go for a feat if the build really needed it.


What would the build be for a ranged version of this and a melee one?

Well, Monks are going to lean towards melee by default. Other than including a couple of daggers to throw, I'd probably just aim to go up and punch things (unless I had a good Monk Weapon). This has the added benefit that you don't have to carry any big weapons around.

If you go with a Warlock build, you'll always have a ranged attack in the form of Eldritch Blast. And, even if you prefer melee, it's probably worth getting Agonising Blast to up the damage even more. If you want to focus on Eldritch Blast, do bear in mind that it doesn't benefit from Sneak Attack. So, if you want to use this, you might want to make use of the Hex spell to up the damage a bit more. The other possibility would be to use an Archfey Patron warlock and get the Moonbow Invocation (it's in the UA linked above). This allows you to conjure a longbow, giving you a ranged attack that can then benefit from your sneak attack damage. Personally, I'd just stick with Eldritch Blast, but I feel I should mention this option for the sake of completeness.

If you want to focus on melee, get Pact of the Blade and take some/all of the associated Invocations (Thirsting Bade is the main one, but Lifedrinker and [Improved/Superior/Ultimate] Pact weapon are also nice). If you make use of Improved Pact weapon, Superior Pact Weapon and/or Superior Pact Weapon (from the UA), bear in mind that you can just trade them up when you reach the right level. So, if you start off with Improved Pact Weapon, you can swap it for Superior Pact Weapon when you reach level 9 (there's no point keeping both).

In terms of other builds, I would just try to pack both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon.


What would you do to make sure you stay hidden kill after kill?

Well, for a start, don't kill your target when there are other people around. :smallwink:

That aside, the Monk build has Minor Illusion (if you've sneaked up to a nobleman and cut his throat, cover the body and blood with an illusion of him sleeping peacefully to buy a bit more time). As well as Silence, Darkness and Pass Without Trace. Plus it can teleport 60ft per round as long as you start and end in an area of dim light (and, as an assassin, you should be doing a lot of your work in dim light). So making an escape really shouldn't be an issue.

A Warlock build can have Mask of Many Faces and can make himself invisible or teleport away afterwards with spells.

The one thing that puzzles me is "kill after kill". How many people are you planning to kill in a single session, if you see what I mean? Monks and Warlocks get their spells back with short rests, so you should be able to go after 3-4 targets per day and still be at peak ability for each one. I really can't imagine you even taking that many commissions (you'd probably be looking at something closer to 1 per week). If you need to kill more people than that, I'd suggest that you'd be looking to play an assassin in name only.

[DivisibleByZero]

The first thing I'd say is that, if I wanted to play an assassin, I'd never actually go beyond lv3 in the Assassin class.

The first thing I'd say is that, if I wanted to play an assassin, I'd never actually put any levels into the Assassin subclass, because it's terrible.

[Specter]

Depends on what you want exactly. Let's say you can 'sneak' and 'deal damage'.

For the 'sneak' part, the least you need is the Stealth skill expertised, of course. So, 1 level of rogue or 3 of Bard. Next, there are some other things that can boost it:

- Pass Without Trace (Druid 3, Ranger 5, Lore Bard 6): +10 to stealth checks. Needless to say.
- Invisibility (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard): What you want before combat to create hiding places even if there aren't none.
- Reliable Talent (Rogue 11): No less than 10 in any stealth roll.
- Peerless Skill (Lore Bard 14): Add your Bardic Inspiration to your stealth check.

How about dealing damage? Well, there are many ways, assuming you want to use weapons. Sneak Attack, Extra Attack, Divine Smite, etc. If you want to use magic, Sorcerer is a good one for Subtle Spell, that masks your casting so no one can tell you did it.

So in the end, you can mix and match most things, as long as you have at least 1 level in rogue or 3 in bard.

[nickl_2000]

Pass without Trace (Druid 3, Ranger 5, Lore Bard 6): +10 to stealth checks. Needless to say.


Don't forget the Shadow Monk also gets this at level 3 (plus Minor Illusion, Darkness, Darkvision, and Silence).

[DivisibleByZero]

The best "assassin" build, IMHO, is Shadow Monk 6 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Trickster 13
7d6 sneak attack with Extra Attack, shadow jumping and the other goodies from Way of the Shadow, a bonus action attack without the need for TWF, 3rd level spells, 4th level slots, 1st level rituals, and most of the AT features.

To expand on this:

20 Rogue:
Attack: 1d6+5 weapon +10d6 SA =~ 43.5
potential TWF attack: 1d6 =~ 43.5-47 damage

13/6/1 build named above:
Attack: 1d6+5 weapon +7d6 SA =~ 32
Extra Attack: 1d6+5 =~ 40.5
potential unarmed attack: 1d6+5 =~ 40.5-49
potential flurry attack: 1d6+5 =~40.5-57.5

So the straight rogue has 43.5-47 damage, while the 13/6/1 has 40.5-57.5 damage. Slightly lower floor, slightly higher to significantly higher ceiling, with a MUCH better chance of landing that SA damage, and a ton of other goodies tossed in to boot.
You don't have the situational and DM dependent nova round to start combat, but you're doing more damage overall, more consistently, and have about a million times more utility.

[Zanthy1]

Depends on what you want exactly. Let's say you can 'sneak' and 'deal damage'.

For the 'sneak' part, the least you need is the Stealth skill expertised, of course. So, 1 level of rogue or 3 of Bard. Next, there are some other things that can boost it:

- Pass Without Trace (Druid 3, Ranger 5, Lore Bard 6): +10 to stealth checks. Needless to say.
- Invisibility (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard): What you want before combat to create hiding places even if there aren't none.
- Reliable Talent (Rogue 11): No less than 10 in any stealth roll.
- Peerless Skill (Lore Bard 14): Add your Bardic Inspiration to your stealth check.

How about dealing damage? Well, there are many ways, assuming you want to use weapons. Sneak Attack, Extra Attack, Divine Smite, etc. If you want to use magic, Sorcerer is a good one for Subtle Spell, that masks your casting so no one can tell you did it.

So in the end, you can mix and match most things, as long as you have at least 1 level in rogue or 3 in bard.

The Unearthed Arcana "Feats for Skills" has a way of gaining expertise in stealth without the level dip, if you do not want any rogue at all

[Specter]

The Unearthed Arcana "Feats for Skills" has a way of gaining expertise in stealth without the level dip, if you do not want any rogue at all

Yeah, but I don't give advice on UA because AL wouldn't take it.

[Lombra]

The best assassin in the strict term of the word is straight rogue assassin. You don't need to be invisible if you have +17 in stealth, or if you can non-magically disguise yourself as anyone else. Hitman teaches. The strict job of the assassin is to infiltrate and kill important targets, not to weave in battle like a skirmisher would.

[Dr. Cliché]

The first thing I'd say is that, if I wanted to play an assassin, I'd never actually put any levels into the Assassin subclass, because it's terrible.

I think you might have found the one thing we can agree on. :smallwink:

That said, I don't think Assassin is too bad if you just dip 3 levels into it. However, as I said, I'd never want to invest more levels in it because it's other abilities are garbage (and seem to be designed for a completely different game). If I was playing pure rogue (or just wanted more than 3 levels of rogue), then I'd never choose Assassin. Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler would be my pick.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I agree with you - I'm not sure that even the 3 levels in Assassin are really worth it (especially when they effectively lock you out of the class from then on). if nothing else, it doesn't seem right that I'd be getting 3 levels of Assassin . . . and then using a different class to get the abilities that an assassin actually needs. :smallconfused:

[rooneg]

That said, I don't think Assassin is too bad if you just dip 3 levels into it. However, as I said, I'd never want to invest more levels in it because it's other abilities are garbage (and seem to be designed for a completely different game). If I was playing pure rogue (or just wanted more than 3 levels of rogue), then I'd never choose Assassin. Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler would be my pick.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I agree with you - I'm not sure that even the 3 levels in Assassin are really worth it (especially when they effectively lock you out of the class from then on). if nothing else, it doesn't seem right that I'd be getting 3 levels of Assassin . . . and then using a different class to get the abilities that an assassin actually needs. :smallconfused:

The question is if you're looking to depend on Sneak Attack or not. If you want Sneak Attack to be your primary damage source you'll be putting a LOT of levels into Rogue. If you're doing that you need to ask yourself if the level 3 ability from Assassin is worth putting up with the less useful subsequent abilities. If you just want to be able to pull off surprise nova rounds but you're putting most of your levels into Fighter or something for Extra Attack then Rogue 3 for Assassinate might be fine. If you're putting 11 or 12 levels into Rogue the stuff you get from Swashbuckler or Arcane Trickster is almost certainly stronger than Assassin.

[MrStabby]

So the big weaknesses with the assassin is the need for surprise to use their sexy ability. This means encounter after encounter your teammates will be ruining things for you unless they are also quiet.

Rangers and shadowmonk give pass without trace to keep your team quiet, diviner portent gives a chance for a good pass for a team-mates stealth roll. Bardic inspiration can work well here (as well as good spells/magical secrets). Trickery cleric gives this kind of bonus most easily with minimum investment.

[Specter]

The best assassin in the strict term of the word is straight rogue assassin. You don't need to be invisible if you have +17 in stealth, or if you can non-magically disguise yourself as anyone else. Hitman teaches. The strict job of the assassin is to infiltrate and kill important targets, not to weave in battle like a skirmisher would.

That disguising nonsense can be done better by a Bard or Arcane Trickster than the Assassin. It's just an option for non-magical rogues.


I think you might have found the one thing we can agree on. :smallwink:

That said, I don't think Assassin is too bad if you just dip 3 levels into it. However, as I said, I'd never want to invest more levels in it because it's other abilities are garbage (and seem to be designed for a completely different game). If I was playing pure rogue (or just wanted more than 3 levels of rogue), then I'd never choose Assassin. Arcane Trickster or Swashbuckler would be my pick.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I agree with you - I'm not sure that even the 3 levels in Assassin are really worth it (especially when they effectively lock you out of the class from then on). if nothing else, it doesn't seem right that I'd be getting 3 levels of Assassin . . . and then using a different class to get the abilities that an assassin actually needs. :smallconfused:

Two things:

- Assassin is not just about the surprise, but the advantage on the first turn. Since you're more likely to win initiative than your other melee buddies, it's essentially a free sneak attack before everyone gets into position.
- There's nothing wrong with taking 8 rogue levels; Uncanny Dodge and Evasion speak for themselves in keeping you alive, and the more sneak attack the merrier.

[Corran]

The best assassin in the strict term of the word is straight rogue assassin. You don't need to be invisible if you have +17 in stealth, or if you can non-magically disguise yourself as anyone else. Hitman teaches. The strict job of the assassin is to infiltrate and kill important targets, not to weave in battle like a skirmisher would.
In a world where invisibility, alter self, ethrealness, teleport, scrying, and countless other useful to various degrees magics are a thing, it is a shame that the pure assassin doesn't get any of them. It is still viable, but it is missing a lot of useful tricks. In fact, I value so much the aid of spells in everything that has to do with assassinating (whether it is just killing, or even other things like infiltrating, spying, impersonating, even escaping to live and kill another day), that I always seem to end up with something like rogue (assassin) 3/ spellcaster 13 as a basis for the final build.

Yeah, pure assassin is viable, and your group can buff you (it's a team-game afterall), but I thing multiclassing with a caster really takes the assassin to the next level. Imo, magic assassin > mundane assassin. But that is mostly personal preference and style of play.



So the big weaknesses with the assassin is the need for surprise to use their sexy ability. This means encounter after encounter your teammates will be ruining things for you unless they are also quiet.
Well, it's not a weakness, it is how it's meant to work, otherwise it would be too powerful.
About teamplay, yeah, it can affect your ability to pull off assassinations, but that can be said about everything in regard to teamplay.
The important thing for someone playing an assassin to understand, is that assassinating is (or should be) just one function of the assassin (and I am not necessarily talking about pure rogue assassins), but not the only thing the assassin can do. Sure, if you fall into the trap of playing a one trick pony, and you focuss your character exculsively around assassinating, then yeah, no matter if your group is stealthy or not, your will be suboptimal overall. Assassinating is just one of the tricks an well-built assassin can do, not the only thing. At least that is how I think when making assassin builds.

[Dr. Cliché]

Two things:

- Assassin is not just about the surprise, but the advantage on the first turn. Since you're more likely to win initiative than your other melee buddies, it's essentially a free sneak attack before everyone gets into position.
- There's nothing wrong with taking 8 rogue levels; Uncanny Dodge and Evasion speak for themselves in keeping you alive, and the more sneak attack the merrier.

A few counterpoints:

- First off, bear in mind that Assassins don't actually have any bonus to initiative. So, whilst they might have slightly better dex than their companions, it's hardly enough to guarantee them going first each fight. What's more, they don't just have to beat their companions (in fact, doing so is entirely irrelevant) - they have to beat their enemies' initiatives.
- More importantly though, why is an assassin engaging in a normal fight? Doing so invalidates the entire point of being an assassin in the first place (as opposed to a standard adventurer or mercenary). Surely, as an assassin, your main targets should be unconscious at the time you make your move? Or indeed, in an entirely different building, because you slipped in, poisoned their wine and then slipped out again an hour ago.
- I agree that taking rogue levels is fine. Hence why I'd want a decent subclass to go with them.

8 Levels of Assassin gets you:
- Proficiency in the Poison Kit and Disguise Kit (Joy).
- Assassinate

In contrast:

8 Levels of Arcane Trickster gets you:
- Mage Hand plus 2 other Cantrips
- 4 Lv1 Spells
- 2 Lv2 Spells
- Mage Hand Legerdemain

8 Levels of Swashbuckler gets you:
- Fancy Footwork
- Rakish Audacity

What's more, an additional level in these would net you Magical Ambush and Panache, respectively. Meanwhile, all the Assassin can offer is an ability that takes 7 days and 25gp to mimic the effect of a 1st level spell.

It just seems that these archetypes have far more to offer for those levels than the assassin. Not only do they still make good assassins (Arcane Trickster with its spell support and Swashbuckler with its ability to basically sneak-attack everything at all times), but they're also far more versatile than the Assassin. It basically does one thing, and it doesn't even do it particularly well. Meanwhile, the Arcane Trickster's spells and such are useful for far more than just assassination missions. Likewise, the Swashbuckler's abilities give it a constant advantage in ongoing combat (compared to the assassin, who only gets his bonus on the first round and sometimes not even then). And Panache opens up a whole range of options that stretch far beyond assassination.

At the very least, if I was planning to take 8+ levels in rogue, I'd want to play an archetype that didn't get its entire payoff at Lv3. :smalltongue:

[Malifice]

Would a rouge assassin and shadow monk combo be good for this or are there any better options?

Thats the best option for mine.

Warlock 3 (Devils sight invocation lets you see in your magical darkness you create as a Shadow Monk, plus take the Mask of Many faces invocation for perfect disguise for surprise attacks). Three levels also grants you access to Hex and Invisibility (twice every short rest)- don't forget to Hex Wisdom so your targets get disadvantage to Perception checks.

Shadow Monk 6 is all you need for darkness, silence, bonus action teleports, extra attack, flurry and stunning strike. 1 feat here.

Rogue (assasin) 11. 6d6 sneak attack, uncanny dodge, evasion, reliable talent, infiltration expertise, cunning action, expertise (x4 skills - Stealth, Perception, Deception, Acrobatics or Thieves tools are all solid choices) assassinate and 3 feats.

Important feats are Alert (assassinate only works if your target is unaware of you at the start of the combat AND you roll higher than him on Initiative on round one so you can catch him surprised) and Skulker.

Other than that, youre pumping Dexterity and then Wisdom. Also need a Cha of 13 for Warlock multiclass. You can safely dump Strength and Intelligence.

Vuman; (+1 Dex and Wis, take Alert as your feat).
Take Monk at 1st (use Staff + Martial arts).
Then take Warlock for 2 levels (Hex + Martial arts + staff attack is awesome DPR at low level, seeing in darkness via Devils sight).
From there (Monk 1/ Warlock 2) take Rogue for the next three levels to bring Assasin online, and switch to the shortsword (finesse weapon brings sneak attack into play).

At sixth level you'll be a [Monk 1/ Warlock 2/ Rogue (assassin) 3] dealing 1d6 (hex) plus 1d6 (shortsword) plus 2d6 (sneak attack) plus Dex, and a kick dealing 1d4 (martial arts) plus 1d6 (hex) plus Dex - total of 5d6+1d4+[Dex x 2] which is perfectly fine for this level.

From there its back to Monk for 5 levels (shadow arts, darkness at will, another feat (take Skulker) flurry of blows, stunning strike, improved martial arts damage, extra attack, +15 feet of movement, and shadow teleport).

After that its I would stick with assassin (relying on darkness, expertise in stealth, pass without trace, and silence to get the drop on my enemies) for 8 of my remaining 9 levels to build sneak attack up, taking my final level of warlock in there somewhere for invisibility 2/ short rest. The three remaining ASIs are to get Dex to 20, and Wisdom to 18.

There are other variants involving [Sorcerer (shadow) 7 + Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7 + Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 + Rogue (assasin) 3]. Half orc using Greataxe + savage attacks + action surge + extra attack + divine smite + superiority dice + GWM + bonus action attack + assassinate.

6 attacks - two from attack action, action surge for two more, gain a bonus action attack from GWM as all attacks are crits, plus pre-buffed with Haste.

Each hit deals 3d12 (greataxe, half orc savage attack) + 12d8 radiant (divine smite, doubled on cit) +2d8 (superiority die, doubled on a crit) + Strength + Charisma + 10 (GWM). Add on a magic weapon for the lulz.

Nova damage is in the high hundreds.

[Waazraath]

Somehow, the title of this thread seems familiar: "Ultimate Ninja Assassin" - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488209-Ultimate-Ninja-Assassin

As I posted back then:

"My take on this:

Monk (shadow) 6 (for darkness, shadow teleport, extra attack, stunning fist, etc); rogue 3 (assasin) for extra damage, expertise in stealth, extra damage with sneak attack; warlock 3 for telepathy, an invisibile familiar as extra scout, see in (magical) darkness, a ranged attack, temporary hp and extra damage with armor of argathys (or extra damage with hex); fighter (battlemaster) 3 for extra damage with action surge, fighting style, and maneuvers (incl. a reaction attack maneuver); monk +5, for extra ki, invisibility at will, and other monk goodies.

You can be a devestating assasin, sneak with expertise stealth, get to 60 feet of a target, teleport in, surprise round, 2 attacks, action surge, another 2 attacks (and another 2 with flurry if the DM rules that the initial teleport wasn't part of the surprise round), every hit is a critical hit, all attacks made with advantage, roll initiative, win (in most cases, with maxed out dex), make another 4 attacks (2 from flurry), again all of them with advantage, or make two attacks and use the bonus action to create a 60 ft distance again to hostiles. Use superiority dice as needed.

High damage, strong fighter / martial artist, with lots of supernatural (killer) abilities.

Edit: forgot to mention the poison kit proficiency and disguise self at will."

[Malifice]

Just remember how assasinate (and surprise) works in 5E.

1) There is no such thing as a 'surprise round'.
2) All attacks - including assassinate attacks - arent made out of turn order or outside of initiative.
3) When the DM determines that narrative time has ended, and combat sequencing has begun, he'll ask for initiative from all parties. Usually he'll do this when someone declares a hostile action (but before the action is resolved).
4) Once initiative is determined, then the DM will figure out who is surprised or not. A creature is only surprised (and thus vulnerable to assassinate) if at the moment the DM called for initiative, it was unaware of any hostile threats. Usually this means you were hidden from the creature at the start of combat, but can also mean that you're disguised and he doesn't see you as a threat.
5) If the creature notices just one hostile threat when initiative is called for, he is not surprised. You can be stealthed up the wazoo, but if your Fighter buddy in full plate is noticed at the start of the combat, your mark isnt surprised, and you cant assassinate him. Assassins work best alone, or with others of their kind.
6) Presuming your mark is surprised on round one, you're only halfway there. He misses his first turn and cant take reactions until after his turn ends. Once his turn comes up and finishes on round one, he ceases being surprised. It is thus vital that you max your initiative as you need to act before your mark on round one to pull off your assassinate.

Presuming you're alone, it works like this. For step one, you generally need to sneak up on your mark. This is a simple Stealth vs his Passive perception check most times. It's dependent on cover and lighting as well. You then declare an attack (crossbows are good for this) triggering initiative. Initiative is rolled, and now need to go before your target in order to trigger your assassinate ability. The Alert feat (and a high Dex) is vital for this step. Guidance from your friendly Cleric helps as well (initiative is a Dexterity ability check). Step three is actually landing your attack. Shouldn't be hard with advantage to hit. Step four is using cunning action to Hide after shooting the bastard, and then moving to another sniping location.

You cant assassinate your target again during the same encoutner, but as long as you stay hidden, you can snipe him with sneak attack added on.

[Corran]

- More importantly though, why is an assassin engaging in a normal fight? Doing so invalidates the entire point of being an assassin in the first place (as opposed to a standard adventurer or mercenary). Surely, as an assassin, your main targets should be unconscious at the time you make your move? Or indeed, in an entirely different building, because you slipped in, poisoned their wine and then slipped out again an hour ago.

Emphasis mine. I strongly disagree with that. Sometimes infiltrating the palace and poisoning the king's night-beverage is the best way to go, other times it might be better to join an army storming said king's keep (and see under way if an opportunity to pull off some surprise presents itself) because it just might be too risky being a rambo. Just because you are at your best when pulling off a surprise, it doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't deviate from that pattern. Sometimes the risk might be too high for the gain you are hoping. Sometimes the best solution is to bring your armored friends despite the cling-clang-clong noises of their heavy armor. And a campaign will usually give you the opportunity to mix and match your approach. Keeps things interesting.
Assassinating is just a feature, and you should use it just as wisely as every other feature (for example, you dont use the -5/+10 trade of GWM against very high AC opponents), you are not supposed to spam it, nor is it supposed to be an I-win-button.

ps: About initiative, the easy solution is to take alert. At first, I was so discouraged by the RAW regarding assassinate and initiative, as I viewed it as a feat tax. And it is a feat tax. But whether this was deliberate for balance reasons or not, I am actually now glad the rules are how they are, since alert is such a thematic feat for an assassin. It just makes a lot of sense for an assassin to have it.
(Btw, our group was not using this rule on assassinating and initiative, yet I convinced them easily to use it, since it was me who was playing the assassin. Just felt right to get that feat.)



Thats the best option for mine.

Warlock 3 (Devils sight invocation lets you see in your magical darkness you create as a Shadow Monk, plus take the Mask of Many faces invocation for perfect disguise for surprise attacks).
The actor feat helps here a lot, advantage on those deception checks so that enemies dont get a reason to make an investigation check, but more importantly it also changes the sound of your voice, and that is missing from disguise self (alter self changes your voice, but needs 15 levels in warlock to get at-will alter self via the relevant invocation.


Three levels also grants you access to Hex and Invisibility (twice every short rest)- don't forget to Hex Wisdom so your targets get disadvantage to Perception checks.
Additionaly, you can use hex to make the enemy roll initiative with disadvantage, by targeting the enemy's dexterity (I assume you dont count it to break stealth due to how you seem to rule it to work against perception; personaly, I think that takes a lot away from the subtle metamagic, but I digress).
Also, pact of the blade for summoning a blade out of thin air. Of situational use, but if someone can make the best use of such a trick, it is an assassin 9particularly one who focuses a lot on social stealth).


Important feats are Alert (assassinate only works if your target is unaware of you at the start of the combat AND you roll higher than him on Initiative on round one so you can catch him surprised) and Skulker.
Also lucky. With that many rolls being critical to assassinating (stealth, initiative, surprise attacks), lucky is an awesome feat for assassin (plus all its usual applicability).



There are other variants involving [Sorcerer (shadow) 7 + Paladin (Oathbreaker) 7 + Fighter (Battlemaster) 3 + Rogue (assasin) 3]. Half orc using Greataxe + savage attacks + action surge + extra attack + divine smite + superiority dice + GWM + bonus action attack + assassinate.

6 attacks - two from attack action, action surge for two more, gain a bonus action attack from GWM as all attacks are crits, plus pre-buffed with Haste.

Each hit deals 3d12 (greataxe, half orc savage attack) + 12d8 radiant (divine smite, doubled on cit) +2d8 (superiority die, doubled on a crit) + Strength + Charisma + 10 (GWM). Add on a magic weapon for the lulz.

Nova damage is in the high hundreds.
What I dont like about these builds (and they are indeed quite popular), is how they overfocus on assassination damage and they are spread too thin, resulting in a difficult progression and also in missing things, that make these builds overall weak (or else, on trick ponies).

For example, I firmly believe that the first build works much better if you drop completely the fighter levels and lower the total of paladin levels, thus increasing your sorcerer levels (either shadow or FS).

And for the greataxe greatsword GWM assassin, my favourite approach is fighter (battlemaster) 3/ rogue (assassin) 3/ warlock (blade, fiend) 14 (I hate how we the final build misses warlock 15 for master of myriad guises -the invocation granting you at-will alter self-, but oh well, we cant have everything...

[Evalumanchin]

I'm a huge fan of the Shadow Monk 6/ Assassin 3/ Twilight Druid 11 build

you have the bonus action shadow teleport, the assassin auto crit and sneak attack, and the twilight druid's ridiculous D10's on that crit.


Is there anywhere a teleporting invisible fly can't sneak into?

[Malifice]

Additionaly, you can use hex to make the enemy roll initiative with disadvantage, by targeting the enemy's dexterity (I assume you dont count it to break stealth due to how you seem to rule it to work against perception; personaly, I think that takes a lot away from the subtle metamagic, but I digress).

Hexing an enemy would generally trigger initiative. Initiative would occur before the Hex is resolved.

Its like declaring you'll cast fireball on someone. All you do is trigger initiaitve. You dont start rolling those d6s till your first turn comes around (by RAW).

Wisdom is the way to go; you should be starting hidden, but Hexing your opponents wisdom drops their passive perception by 5, making it much easier for you to hide again from them as the fight unfolds.

[Citan]

The best assassin build has invisibility.

ps: Good feats for assassins: Alert, lucky.
The best assassin build has Greater Invisibility. :smalltongue:

(Or at least a sustainable way to get Invisible, whether it's a feat, class feature, potion or magic item).

[Sans.]

I'm partial to Hunter 5/Assassin 4/Eldritch 4. Take Crossbow Expert and maybe Sharpshooter and you're pretty set.

[Corran]

Hexing an enemy would generally trigger initiative. Initiative would occur before the Hex is resolved.

Its like declaring you'll cast fireball on someone. All you do is trigger initiaitve. You dont start rolling those d6s till your first turn comes around (by RAW).

Wisdom is the way to go; you should be starting hidden, but Hexing your opponents wisdom drops their passive perception by 5, making it much easier for you to hide again from them as the fight unfolds.
Ah, gotcha. I thought you meant it as a way to bypass encounters cpmpletelly.
Out of curiosity, would you say that a subtle casting of hex would trigger initiative? I've seen DM's handle it both ways. I guess it depends on whether the target realizes the effect of the disadvantage came from a spell, but nothing in the description of hex makes me certain what is the case here. What's your take on it?


The best assassin build has Greater Invisibility. :smalltongue:

(Or at least a sustainable way to get Invisible, whether it's a feat, class feature, potion or magic item).
Hehehe. Lets agree on having them both (difficult to compare them, instictively I would say invisibility for its utility due to its duration).
Actually, I never gave much thought in what other ways and to what extent one can replicate the effect of invisibility. I might try to make a list (or I just might ask here in the playground if I am bored to do it, the hive mind rarely disappoints).

[Dr. Cliché]

1) There is no such thing as a 'surprise round'.

Er, there basically is. Technically, it's the first round, but only creatures that aren't surprised get to act - so it might as well be a surprise round.


Emphasis mine. I strongly disagree with that. Sometimes infiltrating the palace and poisoning the king's night-beverage is the best way to go, other times it might be better to join an army storming said king's keep (and see under way if an opportunity to pull off some surprise presents itself) because it just might be too risky being a rambo.

This confuses me. You say it might be too risky to do a Rambo, whilst describing the assassin doing precisely that. :smallconfused:

If there was already an army storming the king's palace, i think the assassin's first thought would be that he was redundant. Might as well just wait until the fighting is over. If the king is dead, sneak in and steal his ring or such (claiming that you killed him personally). if he's still alive, he's likely to have far fewer guards and may even be more vulnerable as he celebrates his victory.

If the assassin was desperate to get in with the fight still underway, why on earth would he join the army? Why not instead slip in and get the job done whilst most of the guards are distracted fighting the army?


Just because you are at your best when pulling off a surprise, it doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't deviate from that pattern.

Sure. But, given that surprise is about the only thing the Assassin archetype has going for it, wouldn't this naturally lead to you choosing more versatile classes/subclasses?


Sometimes the risk might be too high for the gain you are hoping. Sometimes the best solution is to bring your armored friends despite the cling-clang-clong noises of their heavy armor.

Again, it seems like your friends in noisy armour would serve far better as distractions than fighting companions.

If there is no other way to complete the mission than by fighting openly with a bunch of other blokes, just reject the commission. Tell them that what they're looking to hire is 'mercenaries' not assassins. :smallwink:



Assassinating is just a feature, and you should use it just as wisely as every other feature (for example, you dont use the -5/+10 trade of GWM against very high AC opponents), you are not supposed to spam it, nor is it supposed to be an I-win-button.

Not sure when I said otherwise, but whatever.

The issue with this is that 'Assassinate' is basically the only worthwhile feature Assassins get. So if you're not planning to use it a lot of the time, you really have to ask yourself why you're using that archetype in the first place. Why not use one with more quivers in its bow?



ps: About initiative, the easy solution is to take alert. At first, I was so discouraged by the RAW regarding assassinate and initiative, as I viewed it as a feat tax. And it is a feat tax. But whether this was deliberate for balance reasons or not, I am actually now glad the rules are how they are, since alert is such a thematic feat for an assassin. It just makes a lot of sense for an assassin to have it.
(Btw, our group was not using this rule on assassinating and initiative, yet I convinced them easily to use it, since it was me who was playing the assassin. Just felt right to get that feat.)


Doesn't this contradict your earlier advice though? I mean, if you're saying that you shouldn't even use Assassinate all the time, should you really be investing a feat into it as well? And, again, wouldn't it be better to choose a subclass that doesn't require a feat to make its abilities work reliably?

[mephnick]

Er, there basically is. Technically, it's the first round, but only creatures that aren't surprised get to act - so it might as well be a surprise round.


No. Surprised creatures still get reactions during the round they are surprised after their initiative passes. Can be important.

[Dr. Cliché]

No. Surprised creatures still get reactions during the round they are surprised after their initiative passes. Can be important.

I don't understand how this detail makes the surprise round cease to exist. :smallconfused:

[MrWesson22]

My next character will be a wood elf battlemaster fighter 12/assassin rogue 7/ranger 1. UA is available to us, so it will be the revised ranger, and he will also have access to that oh so amazing 3d20 advantage elf feat. He will be ranged using a longbow with sharpshooter, alert, and the new elf feat. He gets 5 ASIs, so maxing dex isn't an issue. 6 APR that all crit on a surprise attack with the 4d6 sneak attack and d10 battlemaster dice (precision when sharpshooter causes misses, something else when they hit) is a lot of damage to drop on an unsuspecting enemy. The ranger level gives advantage on initiative rolls as well as favored enemy and terrain and an additional skill.

[DivisibleByZero]

I don't understand how this detail makes the surprise round cease to exist. :smallconfused:

That detail isn't what makes the surprise round cease to exist.
What makes the surprise round cease to exist is the simple fact that the surprise round no longer exists.
As I'm sure you well know, the way that the surprise round used to work, was that the team that was surprised didn't get to do anything, and the surprising team got a full round, and then initiative was rolled, and then things worked as normal.
There's a big difference between one entire team getting a free round before initiative was even rolled (surprise round), and the idea that certain PCs/NPCs might be surprised and not get to act in their regularly scheduled initiative order on the first round, but can then take reactions after they are no longer surprised (still within the same round).
There is a huge difference there.

The surprise round no longer exists.
Just because you like to think of the first round during which some PCs/NPCs might be surprised as a surprise round doesn't make it so.
The surprise round no longer exists. Surprise now exists as what is effectively a condition.

[Dr. Cliché]

That detail isn't what makes the surprise round cease to exist.
What makes the surprise round cease to exist is the simple fact that the surprise round no longer exists.
As I'm sure you well know, the way that the surprise round used to work, was that the team that was surprised didn't get to do anything, and the surprising team got a full round, and then initiative was rolled, and then things worked as normal.
There's a big difference between one entire team getting a free round before initiative was even rolled (surprise round), and the idea that certain PCs/NPCs might be surprised and not get to act in their regularly scheduled initiative order on the first round, but can then take reactions after they are no longer surprised (still within the same round).
There is a huge difference there.

The surprise round no longer exists.
Just because you like to think of the first round during which some PCs/NPCs might be surprised as a surprise round doesn't make it so.
The surprise round no longer exists. Surprise now exists as what is effectively a condition.#

This has nothing to do with anything I said. All I said was that it's surely not unreasonable, when at least some of the participants in a battle are surprised, to refer to the first round as the 'surprise round'. Even if it's not officially called that, that's still the principle of it. It is the round where the surprise mechanic applies.

[DivisibleByZero]

#

This has nothing to do with anything I said. All I said was that it's surely not unreasonable, when at least some of the participants in a battle are surprised, to refer to the first round as the 'surprise round'. Even if it's not officially called that, that's still the principle of it. It is the round where the surprise mechanic applies.

It has everything to do with what you said.
He said there was no such thing in 5e. (he was right)


1) There is no such thing as a 'surprise round'.

Er, there basically is. Technically, it's the first round, but only creatures that aren't surprised get to act - so it might as well be a surprise round.

No. Surprised creatures still get reactions during the round they are surprised after their initiative passes. Can be important.

I don't understand how this detail makes the surprise round cease to exist. :smallconfused:

You effectively said: Well there basically is, and I choose to think of it that way, so there really is.

No, there isn't.
The first round may have some characters surprised, but the Surprise Round no longer exists. It's not a surprise round. It's round 1, and you may or may not be surprised. There's a difference.

[Corran]

This confuses me. You say it might be too risky to do a Rambo, whilst describing the assassin doing precisely that. :smallconfused:
My bad for not writing this a bit better. I meant that sometimes you might find the risk to be worth it, other times not. Just because you might have a chance to pull it off, doesn't always mean it is the best way to go about killing someone. I meant to say, dont let the fact that your character has such a trait, make you stop thinking out of the box, or make you fail too see better solutions just because you have to be an assassin at every opportunity. In an ideal party and under an ideal scenario, assassinate means bringing utility at the table.





Sure. But, given that surprise is about the only thing the Assassin archetype has going for it, wouldn't this naturally lead to you choosing more versatile classes/subclasses?
Before answering this, let me say that I agree 100% with your first post in this thread. It is a sad fact, that the higher level assassin features can be replicated and to a much better effect by using magic. So whenever I am thinking of assassin, I am thinking of rogue 3. So I cannot successfully become the singleclass assassin's advocate, since I dont like the subclass as a whole.

Let me just say this bit though. Assassinate is a very specific feature. It lets you do something you cannot easily replicate by being an arcane trickster or a swashbuckler, or a thief. If you want to play a character that has the potential to do that, ie assassinate enemies, then there is no good substitute from the other rogue archtypes imo. Three levels of rogue (assassin) is within the limits of optimization as far as playing a character who can be good at assassinating is concerned. To rephrase this a bit. I often see people saying that fast hands, fancy footwork, etc, are better than assassinate, yet it is like comparing aples to oranges. I am not saying a comparison is impossible to make, and while I can see this discussion relevant when discussing/criticquing a guide or making a theoritical comparison of the various rogue archtypes, it has nothing to do with when, say, I want to play a character who can assassinate enemies. Allow me to exhaggerate a bit, by saying that all the other level 3 rogue archtype features combined cannot replace assassinate for what it is.




Again, it seems like your friends in noisy armour would serve far better as distractions than fighting companions.

If there is no other way to complete the mission than by fighting openly with a bunch of other blokes, just reject the commission. Tell them that what they're looking to hire is 'mercenaries' not assassins. :smallwink:
I think this is where we see things differently. Being of the assassin subclass, doesn't have to mean that you are the stereotypical assassin that gets paid to eliminate targets and does nothing else other than that. That's an NPC or a character in a novel/movie.

It seems to me you are suggesting that the assassin is not well suited to teamplay, and while this might seem true due to people placing too much value on one-trick-ponies-assassins that do 500 damage if they pull of an assassination once in 20 sessions, but do nothing when they cant, this is not the general case. Just a trend due to bad application of multiclassing.

Sure, having a stealthy group can make your life easier, but that does not mean that if you have guys in heavy armor you (or an ally) cant mitigate the negative effect by something as simple as casting pass without a trace and perhaps an upcast invisibility. This whole issue (that I think you are implying, hope I read the meaning of your post correctly), falls directly under party optimization. It is not different for example than wanting to play a melee ranger in a party full of ranged characters. You most likely wont have a good time because of the party set up, and you ll need to opt for a few things that will make your build idea more compatible with the rest of the group (and vice versa).



The issue with this is that 'Assassinate' is basically the only worthwhile feature Assassins get. So if you're not planning to use it a lot of the time, you really have to ask yourself why you're using that archetype in the first place. Why not use one with more quivers in its bow?
Having the ability to kill someone in a single round if you catch him off guard is something you might reeeeally want your character to have, because it fits what you have in mind for your character's capabilitites and because it might suit well the roleplaying aspects of your character. It is then up to you to try and make it happen as often as possible (or rather, as often as you feel is appropriate), but simpky because you have that feature, it does not automatically mean that you have to be obsesed about it and trying to turn every fight into an assassination attempt. Sometimes it wont just be possible, or even a good idea. It's a feature, not your character's every single thought. Assassins (regardless of build), can play very differently, and can make very different use of assassinate, both as far as its application and its frequency is concerned. (The style of the game plays a big role here. For example dungeon crawling will require different things from an assassin than a more social-type of campaign.)




Doesn't this contradict your earlier advice though? I mean, if you're saying that you shouldn't even use Assassinate all the time, should you really be investing a feat into it as well? And, again, wouldn't it be better to choose a subclass that doesn't require a feat to make its abilities work reliably?
Well, it wasn't an advice, rather than a realization which applied to my games at least. My point was that assassinating is just a means to an end (overcoming a challenge), and not the only tool at your kit of overcoming a challenge. I see this at a lot of players who choose to play assassins, as they get so caught up into trying to turn every fight into an assassination attempt, that they will miss a much reliable and promising approach. Having access to the assassinate feature should not make you think of solutions outside this one approach. Bottom line, I was trying to say that while yes, trying creatively and smartly to bring your assassination into play is a given, dont narrow your options by assuming it is the default approach to every situation (but I guess I worded that very poorly). Your assassin character is not just a hired killer, unless you choose to make him one.

Regarding alert, it depends a lot on how much emphasis you want to put on being good at assassinating, and on how you choose to strengthen it. Generally I think it is very much worth it, as initiative plays a big part at triggering assassinations. But obviously, if you only manage to pull off 1 assassination attempt every 10 sessions, it is not worth the investment. I was suggesting this under the premisse that the character build is solid enough to satisfy the requirements of being a good assassin (which I cannot even begin to list) and also under the assumption that the player will find ways to make it happen. So while this suggestion is based on some assumptions, it can differentiate a lot from a suggestion like ''be a rogue3/fighter2/paladin15'' which I would never make under any circumstances. Under the average case scenario, alert is good value for money regarding assassins, while other (popular) suggestions miss the mark by a great margin imo. Another example of suggestion is this: Pick mask of many faces and the actor feat for incredible social stealth. Now, if the player cant roleplay properly, or if the DM is out to screw you, this wont work, but it is a good suggestion under the average case scenario nonetheless, despite basing it on some fairly logical assumptions.

[Specter]

From what I've seen in play, you can't hope to surprise the boss (in a dungeon or otherwise). They'll have influence, means, magic, etc. Don't even think about it: if it happens, you're lucky.

But when it comes to mooks, it's a whole other story. In the city or in dungeons, you can just Stealth up and go to town. Most of them will die in a single hit.

And then there's a blurry in-between, where you're not sure if you'll kill them or not.

Any similarities with the Metal Gear Solid series is purely coincidental.

[Drackolus]

I'm gonna go agai st the grain here and say that one of rhe best assassins is the assassin. While it is true that two of the subclass abilities aren't fantastic, (though they are also not nearly as bad as they are said to be, in a long term metropolitan setting; you know, the way real-world assassins actually work) the rest of the rogue kit is crucial. (sneak attack progression, reliable talent, more expertise).That's not to say that arcane tricksters or other builds can't be effective assassins, but I disagree with the general consensus that the assassin subclass is bad; just misused and misrepresented. Much like a warlock in a campaign with no short rests, or a chaotic evil character... In basically anything but a chaotic evil adventure.

[djreynolds]

Druid gives some good spells

meld into stone, could be cool

pass without a trace, hold person, invisibilty... 2nd level spells the grassland druid receives at 3rd level

3 levels gives you access to all those spells

and wildshape, no enemy is suspecting a mouse or frog or cat

[MrStabby]

I am with the view that the "Surprise round" is just a commonly used shorthand for the round in which some people may have the surprised condition. The nomenclature is just a hangover from previous editions and isn't something to get hung up over.

Assassinate abilities are just too all or nothing for my tastes. They twist party actions to try and make them work - and if they don't then they don't see play.

[DivisibleByZero]

Assassinate abilities... twist party actions to try and make them work - and if they don't then they don't see play.

Which is precisely why the subclass is terrible. In order for it to even have the *possibility* of being useful, the entire party had to bend over backward to make it happen, or you need to be running solo.

[Malifice]

I don't understand how this detail makes the surprise round cease to exist. :smallconfused:

Its not a surprise round. Its round one of the combat. During which its possible that some creatures may be surprised.

Being surprised is inherent as a property of a creature, not of the round.

Im surprised (pardon the pun) they didnt make surprised a condition.


Out of curiosity, would you say that a subtle casting of hex would trigger initiative? I've seen DM's handle it both ways. I guess it depends on whether the target realizes the effect of the disadvantage came from a spell, but nothing in the description of hex makes me certain what is the case here. What's your take on it?

Probably. The creature hexed is aware its been hexed, so its not really different from any other hostile action.

Its relevant for surprise. If you hex the creature, it cant be said to be surprised if you then attack it the following round. Its well aware of a hostile creature is around the instant you curse it.

[mephnick]

Which is precisely why the subclass is terrible. In order for it to even have the *possibility* of being useful, the entire party had to bend over backward to make it happen, or you need to be running solo.

Exactly. The assassin is the ultimate spotlight hog or completely underpowered. I'm not waiting until round 3 to engage every combat because some other dumb player chose assassin.

[Malifice]

Which is precisely why the subclass is terrible. In order for it to even have the *possibility* of being useful, the entire party had to bend over backward to make it happen, or you need to be running solo.

Pass without trace comes in handy here.

+10 to Stealth for the whole party for 1 hour.

Factoring in darkvision only turns heavy obscurement into light obscurement (so -5 to creatures passive perception scores) and you're a good chance to get the drop on creatures.

Barring the ubiquitous cleric or paladin in full plate with a Dex of 8. There is always one.

[Citan]

The first thing I'd say is that, if I wanted to play an assassin, I'd never actually go beyond lv3 in the Assassin class.

Firstly, because Lv3 is basically when you get all the stuff that's actually useful (with the possible exception of Death Strike, but I'll be buggered if I have to get to that level in Assassin), namely Assassinate. Indeed, most of the stuff beyond that is much better replicated by magic. So, if I get to lv9, I can spend 25gp and 7 days(!!) to create a new identity for myself. Leaving aside for now that trying to do that would probably result in the other players throwing a Monster Manual at your head, which sounds better: spending 7 days crafting a new identity (for 9 levels in Assassin) or creating a new identity for free whenever you want (with 2 levels in Warlock and the Mask of Many Faces Invocation)?

To all guys saying something similar to that...
I'm really amazed that you missed the point of level 9 feature by such a large margin. Like, shooting a bazooka towards an elephant 5 meters away and still missing it.

Infiltration Expertise is far, FAR better than just Disguise Self or Actor. You create a whole identity. You don't seem to understand what that really means. It means you can walk around in all serenity, because people will have trust in you thanks to all those relationships, letters of trust and other background facts you planted away.

Disguise Self? Auto-fail on physical inspection.
Alter Self? Better but Concentration, 1 hour max, and won't help much once people start asking you about key questions about your background or notice you speak/move/act in a different way than the person you try to impersonate.
Charm Person? Good for a one-shot, but beware using it on any people that is part of a group!
Invisibility? Will work in all mundane situations when 1mn is enough. In any magic place with Detect Magic or circles preventing/dispelling magic it's useless.
Pass Without Trace? Always a great spell to sneak. But means you are required to sneak.

Etc etc.
Basically, you all miss the point of Infiltration: you say "it can be reproduced with magic", because you think it's an ability that helps sneaking. That's quite the opposite: with this feature, you can go along, all day long, in the place you forged an identity for. You could even shake hands with the guards if you'd like or go drink with them, or try and convince people of the place to do things as you'd like.
Character with Disguise/Alter Self, Invisibility, Actor feat etc... Will certainly have a good chance to avoid people asking themselves "is he really who he is" for some time. But he would still have to be extremely careful in how he plays, especially if DM enforces variable difficulty to Deception checks depending on the relationshipe between the one you speak to and the one you impersonate (like, an intimate friend would probably have a very high chance to understand the impersonation, because your vocabulary, facial expressions or reflexive movements won't be the same anyhow, unless you spent weeks studying the person you impersonate).
Or said otherwise, even with the bestest of impersonations you could ever make, there will still be many limits to what you can do.

Assassin has no worries to have about that, and thus can fully exploit all the power he is supposed so have in his forged identity to manipulate people, often without even needing Charisma checks because 1) he created an identity of power and 2) people don't doubt his identity.

Of course, most don't see it because it has lesser chance to shine if the DM doesn't provide situations that may call for it (exactly the same as features from other classes though). But in the right hands, in a long-run campaign (usually one-shots are too "guided" and short), it's far more powerful than any magic you could throw, up until you get 8th or 9th level spells.
It's the same with Impostor vs Actor feat: Impostor will give you much more leeway in impersonating someone, even "against" people who know him well.

With that said, I don't think there is no space for "magical impersonation" either: it's just a different approach, for different uses, and in fact it's very complementary to Infiltrate. :)

That's why the best Assassin (overall, not taking only damage into account) would imo probably be Assassin Rogue 13 / caster 7 (Sorcerer for Subtle spell, Bard for Pass Without Trace, Warlock for Invocations, Wizard for most versatility). :)

[rooneg]

Of course, most don't see it because it has lesser chance to shine if the DM doesn't provide situations that may call for it (exactly the same as features from other classes though). But in the right hands, in a long-run campaign (usually one-shots are too "guided" and short), it's far more powerful than any magic you could throw, up until you get 8th or 9th level spells.

That's the thing, it's not that it can't be good, it's that it's the sort of thing that doesn't show up in most D&D campaigns. If you're playing a Gentleman Bastards style urban rogues campaign (and if you've never wanted to play one of those you should go read those books, because Scott Lynch's books will make the idea sound awesome!) then that's a brilliant effect. If you're playing one of the published 5e campaigns or most traditional D&D style homebrews it's hardly ever going to come up. It's the sort of ability that shines in a sandboxy game where all the players actually want to do the sort of stuff that makes that ability shine.

[Citan]

That's the thing, it's not that it can't be good, it's that it's the sort of thing that doesn't show up in most D&D campaigns. If you're playing a Gentleman Bastards style urban rogues campaign (and if you've never wanted to play one of those you should go read those books, because Scott Lynch's books will make the idea sound awesome!) then that's a brilliant effect. If you're playing one of the published 5e campaigns or most traditional D&D style homebrews it's hardly ever going to come up. It's the sort of ability that shines in a sandboxy game where all the players actually want to do the sort of stuff that makes that ability shine.
Yeah, but it's true of many features in the game though: Ranger is the obvious one coming to mind, but Cleric's Divination is also extremely DM dependant, Paladin tenets and Warlock Patrons may have very different "implementations" also from one DM to another, even Thief or Monk's extreme movement may be useless in some campaigns.

Same could be generally said about some skills that feel largely ignored by players at least on this forum because their usefulness is very dependant on campaign and DM: Investigation, Animal Handling, History, Religion, Survival, Performance...

It's too bad I don't know any of the official campaigns, I would have liked to see if/when this kind of feature could be used well.
But my point is: any good DM will always take characters into account to tailor the campaign, even from official material, to give any and all chances to get some spotlight using any and every facet of the characters (features, skills, background etc). So if you don't take a particular class because you feel you won't get to use its features, then you have a trust problem towards your DM (because, "worst case", you just have to talk with him about that beforehand). And that's a more pressing matter than choosing your class imo. :)

[Asmotherion]

Expertise in Sneak comes to mind, as well as combining Shadow Monk 6 with Assasin Rogue, and Warlock 2 for Devil Sight. Add some caster levels in Warlock for more Darkness every short rest, make sure to get booming blade and get your sneak attack comfortably high.

-Sharpshooter could help add in some extra damage instead of SCAG cantrips (as you're in darkness, and have constant advantage in it), and you can dual wield daggers +dual wielder feat to draw 2 more daggers from your belt as a free action to make 4 sharpshooter attacks with them. 1 fighter level for Two Weapon fighter is also a good idea to add your dex to off-hand dagger.

[MrStabby]

I think if i were to play an assassin character rather than a class i would be tempted by the Revised Ranger - Underdark Scout/Fighter. The extra attack on an action in the first round + action surge would be brutal, especially with the extra 10 ft of movement to close into range. Add to that the initiative advantage and you should be able to do a good load of damage before anyone reacts.

Add a 1 level of rogue dip if you want for expertise in stealth and probably perception.

My guess on progression would be ranger 1-5, fighter to 2 then rogue 1, fighter to 4 (pick up battlemaster for even more nova damage) then ranger 6 and rogue 2.

Still keeps the assassin themes of sneaky sudden high damage but loses the dependency on other players to BE an assassin. Hopefully more fun for everyone.

[Corran]

I think if i were to play an assassin character rather than a class i would be tempted by the Revised Ranger - Underdark Scout/Fighter. The extra attack on an action in the first round + action surge would be brutal, especially with the extra 10 ft of movement to close into range. Add to that the initiative advantage and you should be able to do a good load of damage before anyone reacts.

Add a 1 level of rogue dip if you want for expertise in stealth and probably perception.

My guess on progression would be ranger 1-5, fighter to 2 then rogue 1, fighter to 4 (pick up battlemaster for even more nova damage) then ranger 6 and rogue 2.

Still keeps the assassin themes of sneaky sudden high damage but loses the dependency on other players to BE an assassin. Hopefully more fun for everyone.
This..... is actually quite clever! A good way to replicate assassinate.
Something always didnt fit when I was seeing people want to play a ranged stalker/assassin, and now I see it, a fighter 2 & rogue 1 dip is actually better than a rogue 3 dip in regard to assassinating.

ps: Might if I steal this (I think if i were to play an assassin character rather than a class i would be tempted by the Revised Ranger - Underdark Scout/Fighter. Still keeps the assassin themes of sneaky sudden high damage but loses the dependency on other players to BE an assassin. Hopefully more fun for everyone.) for my sig?

[MrStabby]

This..... is actually quite clever! A good way to replicate assassinate.
Something always didnt fit when I was seeing people want to play a ranged stalker/assassin, and now I see it, a fighter 2 & rogue 1 dip is actually better than a rogue 3 dip in regard to assassinating.

ps: Might if I steal this (I think if i were to play an assassin character rather than a class i would be tempted by the Revised Ranger - Underdark Scout/Fighter. Still keeps the assassin themes of sneaky sudden high damage but loses the dependency on other players to BE an assassin. Hopefully more fun for everyone.) for my sig?

The favoured enemy for the type of thing you want to assassinate also works quite well thematically and the ranger spells are nice. Hunter's mark is a nice touch for tracking down your enemy for example. Even something like rope trick can make for a nice ambush as you climb into an extra dimensional space.

[Corran]

The favoured enemy for the type of thing you want to assassinate also works quite well thematically and the ranger spells are nice. Hunter's mark is a nice touch for tracking down your enemy for example. Even something like rope trick can make for a nice ambush as you climb into an extra dimensional space.
Yes, it makes for a very good assassin-kind of character in a more traditional game that features a lot of dungeon crawling. Definitely more party friendly. I guess the revised ranger did revise a bit the more-combat-focused-version of the assassin accidentally, via the stalker archtype. Now I wonder if that was by accident or if Wizards in their infinite wisdom did that on purpose.