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zeek0
2017-04-28, 02:06 AM
I stumbled upon this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520654-Divine-Domain-Blasphemy) conversion of the Ur Priest from 3.5, and I fell in love with the flavor. To me it feels like Universal Unitarianism and a Unix programmer all rolled into one, with the bonus of thumbing your nose at the gods. Or you could just be evil.

Anyhow, I made my version much less of a conversion and mostly started from scratch. Here's a neatly formatted PDF (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxfCiPA2FPFAYTdCZEhBc0ktaGc), or take a look here:

UR DOMAIN

Ur priests draw on divine power and the cleric tradition without any blessing from the gods. Most refute the gods in some way, profess that they do not exist, or otherwise affront the gods by theft of their power. These clerics wish to weaken the gods and their followers. A few others serve dead or powerless gods, drawing from divine power in hope of restoring them to power or elevating a new order. All these clerics draw the ire and wroth of pious clerics, who view an Ur priest as blasphemous and unnatural.

UR DOMAIN SPELLS
An Ur priest appropriates freely from divine magics, granting them the liberty to choose their own path to power. Choose two 1st-level spells on the cleric spell list. These spells become domain spells for you.
At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, choose two additional spells on the cleric spell list at the spell level you gain access to at that level. These spells become domain spells for you.

DISSEMBLING ERUDITION
To steal power from the gods necessitates great understanding of both magic and divinity. You become proficient in Arcana and Religion. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.

CHANNEL DIVINITY: REPUDIATE BLESSINGS AND CURSES
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to manipulate divine energies and strip away blessings or curses.
As an action, target one creature, object, or magical effect within 60 feet. Any spell equal to half your cleric level or lower on the target ends.
For each effect stripped away, a creature takes necrotic damage or regains health (your choice) equal to five times the combined levels of the spells removed.

SIPHON POWER
At 6th level, you can expend two cleric spell slots of the same level to cast a spell that you know using one slot higher than the slots expended. For example, you may expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast fireball as if you had expended a 3rd-level slot. You cannot cast a spell at a higher slot than you have access to.

POTENT SPELLCASTING
Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

TRANSUBSTANTIATE ENERGIES
At 17th level, if you would become subject to magical damage, you can negate that damage. You may then redirect that energy to a creature or object within 60 feet, causing it to take necrotic damage or gain health (your choice) equal to the damage you would have taken. If you would damage a creature, they may make a wisdom saving throw. If they succeed, they take half damage. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a short rest.

Sidebar: NON-HOLY CLERIC
An Ur-Priest channels divine energies, but pays no obeisance to gods or ideologies to access that power. As such, their behaviors and execution of some cleric activities changes.
Holy Symbols. An Ur priest might use the symbol of any deity, or may fashion their own symbol that represents their connection to divine power.
Divine Intervention. Ur priests do not call upon a deity to intervene on their behalf, but instead dictate their desire and siphon a large amount of divine energy in service of their command. The DM decides how their desire is manifested.
Spell Preparation. When an Ur priest changes their prepared spell list they spend their time meditating on how to manipulate divine energies, instead of in prayer.


I'd like to specifically know:
a) if "five times" is the appropriate amount for Repudiate
b) if I should add a saving throw to Transubstantiate Energies. Hurl Through Hell doesn't have one, is three levels lower, and probably deals less damage.

JNAProductions
2017-04-28, 09:53 AM
Eh... Expertise in two skills is a lot to give, even if they are weaker skills. I'd just give proficiency.

Also, your domain spells are hella good, since you can pick literally any cleric spells you want.

OH GOD, that Channel Divinity... Well, actually, since buff-stacking isn't really a thing in 5E, I guess it's not that bad. But I'd allow a save, first to avoid getting the magic stripped, then to avoid the damage.

Siphon Power... Pretty good. Let's you combine spells. I think it's okay, if you limit it to 5th level or lower slots.

Transub Energies needs to require a check of some sort. Maybe make it only work on a successful save? And again, there needs to be a save to resist the damage dealt by this.

Gr7mm Bobb
2017-04-28, 11:22 AM
Minor name suggestion. To follow the premise of this domain, why not just call it the Stolen Domain? It would help jive better with 5e titles and be less confusing to people who only know 5e. Maybe in the Fluff section or one of the ability titles you can call them out as being referred to as an Ur Priest for a nifty but less confusing throwback.

I will need to look into the implications of the material further, but JNA seemed to have pretty solid points.

As for the Domain spells, I would recommend maybe letting them steal another domains entire spell list, limiting some of the versatility in exchanged for fixed power. As for how long they retain the spell list... maybe they can change them out after a long rest?

For the 6th level feature, there is no difference between wizard spell slots and druid spell slots, they're just slots. I think Warlock is the only caster who has slots that are actually labelled differently. I do recommend limiting it to cleric only spells that can be cast this way though, Would help limit multi-class shenanigans.

The 17th level feature should allow a save to reduce the damage aspect of it. The damage to health is neat and I don't have as much of an issue with it.

The Zoat
2017-04-28, 12:22 PM
I feel like Repudiate as a feature is a little bit niche and countery for 5e. Maybe have it serve as a on-the-fly prepared spell switcher?

IMO expertise Arcana and Religion is fine, a Ur-Priest type generally requires more overall knowledge than a wizard or a cleric, but maybe make it expertise in religion only?

zeek0
2017-04-29, 03:13 AM
Thanks for the fine responses! I'd enjoy talking about this further.


Eh... Expertise in two skills is a lot to give, even if they are weaker skills. I'd just give proficiency.

Also, your domain spells are hella good, since you can pick literally any cleric spells you want.
I based balanced these off of the 1st level features given to other cleric domains. Most get domain spells, a proficency, and an ability.

Ur domain spells have the advantage of choice, but the downside of no access to non-cleric spells - your domain spells are those that you have access to anyway. I'd peg this as better than the usual domain spells.

The knowledge domain already gives proficiency/expertise to two knowledge skills, and they get more choice + tool proficiencies. Peg this as more than a weapon/armor proficiency, but equal to/less than other abilities at level one.

I hope that by considering the abilities together they're more balanced(?).


As for the Domain spells, I would recommend maybe letting them steal another domain's entire spell list, limiting some of the versatility in exchange for fixed power.
I considered this, and MFoV did the same with their Ur domain. But first, I saw this domain as a thief of divine power generally, and traditional domain spells as directly granted by a god. Second, I'd say your version *much* more powerful, because you gain access to *so many* non-cleric spells.


Channel Divinity... Well, actually, since buff-stacking isn't really a thing in 5E, I guess it's not that bad. But I'd allow a save, first to avoid getting the magic stripped, then to avoid the damage.
I based this off of Dispel Magic, which doesn't force a save to dispel magic of its own level or lower (this CD doesn't get the chance to dispel greater magic).
The damage will always be quite a bit less than damage a cleric could usually deal in a round. If y'all still feel strongly about it, I'll change it.


I feel like Repudiate as a feature is a little bit niche and countery for 5e. Maybe have it serve as a on-the-fly prepared spell switcher?
Repudiate could also be used to consume an ally's buff, or a curse on an enemy. May help. But I admit that it isn't universally useful like other Channel Divinities. Switching spells on the fly doesn't seem... cool. But I'll think on it.


Siphon Power... Pretty good. Let's you combine spells. I think it's okay, if you limit it to 5th level or lower slots..
I'm curious about your reason for this. (Note that you can't get another 9th level slot.)


For the 6th level feature ... I do recommend limiting it to cleric only spells that can be cast this way though, Would help limit multi-class shenanigans.
As intended. Are there any particular shenanigans you're concerned about?


The 17th level feature should allow a save to reduce the damage aspect of it. The damage to health is neat and I don't have as much of an issue with it.
Thanks. I'll add a save to nullify the damage, but deal the damage with no save (compare to Hurl Through Hell). Good idea.
EDIT: I tried to make the save work off of the initial damage, but couldn't figure out how to determine the save DC (I want it to be able to work on fire-breath-like abilities also). So I keyed it off the damage to a creature. I don't think that immediately nullified damage from one magical attack is unreasonable for a capstone anyhow.

I didn't follow many of y'all's suggestions, so perhaps I'm defensive. But I'd love to talk more about it, especially if I'm wrong!

Arkhios
2017-04-29, 07:15 AM
I have to agree with the domain spells' issue.

About half of them (Official Domain spells) are more of the 'out of combat utility' type, while the other half are more useful in combat. I'd rather try to stay true to that design intent.

Although I do agree that being limited to only cleric spell list is somewhat a burden for Ur Domain already, it's not enough compared to the free choice.

Instead, I would try to filter and pick one of the most clerical spells for each of the spell levels (perhaps excluding healing spells) and let the Ur Priests choose only the other half for each spell level.

You have to step into the shoes of a "munchker", think which spells such a player would take, and preferably choose those the munchker wouldn't pick as their first choice. Weigh in the 'theme' > 'power'.

zeek0
2017-04-29, 11:14 AM
I'd like to mention that I do think that the Ur Domain Spells feature is *better* than other domain spell lists - but, if considered with all 1st level benefts, will even out.

Example:
The 1st level Knowledge domain gets:
-a set spell list with some non-cleric spells, and
- a feature that provides two languages, and proficency/expertise in any two knowledge skills
The 1st level Ur domain gets:
- a variable spell list created from cleric spells
- a feature that provides proficiency/expertise in religion and arcana

My hope is that (two languages + skill choice + a few non-cleric spells) = (varied domain spells)

Or, compare to the much better Tempest domain:
(lots of non-cleric spells + martial weapon/heavy armor proficiency + reaction rebuke attack) = (proficiency/expertise in religion and arcana + varied domain spells)

Am I off-base here? I thought about this problem a good bit while homebrewing, and I thought I did the 'math'...


Although I do agree that being limited to only cleric spell list is somewhat a burden for Ur Domain already, it's not enough compared to the free choice.
I decided to do a quick ur domain spells test, choosing the most munchkinish spells. Here's what I came up with, using the guide 'The Devout and the Dead' to help me:
1: bless, cure wounds
2: spiritual weapon, aid
3: spirit guardians, mass healing word
4: death ward, banishment
5: flamestrike, contagion
Not terribly OP I hope.

Again, thanks for the comments. If I'm wrong I'd love to know how!