From a careful reading of the strip...

[twofry]

You can see that Belkar's true alignment is Neutral Evil, with Chaotic Tendencies. Regardless of how Rich states he is, thats the way he's written.

No one, not ever, since the very earliest days of D&D, has ever fufilled the full letter of their alignment because the players are human.

Even a paladin has either Lawful or Good tendencies.

Belkar's continued insistence and imperative for looking out for himself is clearly a Neutral Evil (or more commonly known as selfish evil), with Chaotic tendencies Alignment.

[Actana]

No. Belkar is Chaotic Evil. End of thread.

[shakes019]

A careful reading of the strip should indicate that Belkar claims to be Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html).

[Siwenna]

The looking out for himself bit is evil. However his general attitude towards things, along with the random acts of cruelty, is definately chaotic. Look how well he got along with SHojo. Chaotic Good but his approach to everything appealed to Belkar.

edit: What do you mean "a paladin has either lawful or good tendencies?" First of all, alignments are generalities and can be followed to different degrees. The Neutral Evil might have a soft spot for puppies, say. Paladins are supposed to have nothing but lawful and good tendencies. When they do something Chaotic, they have to be forgiven. When they do something evil, they fall. The way you say, it sounds like you think paladins have to be either Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies or Neutral Good with Lawful tendencies, but that is simply not true. Paladins must be both Lawful and Good. WHen they are not, they loose their powers.

I can see how some might come to the conclusion that he is chaotic neutral, leaning towards evil, but Belkar is definately chaotic (and evil.)

[Roupe]

I respectfully disagree with belkar as NE . Neutral lack the commitment to do stuff, and prefereably abstain if they can.


Neutral Evil is called the "Malefactor" alignment. Characters of this alignment are typically selfish and have no qualms about turning on their allies-of-the-moment. They have no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit to it. A villain of this alignment can be more dangerous than either Lawful or Chaotic Evil characters, since he is neither bound by any sort of honour or tradition nor disorganised and pointlessly violent.

Clearly not Belkar... Since Belkar will go carnage just for fun (not for direct benefit)& do pointless violence.

Chaotic Evil is referred to as the "Destroyer" or "Demoniac" alignment. Characters of this alignment tend to have little respect for rules, other peoples' lives, or anything but their own selfish desires. They typically only behave themselves out of fear of punishment.

Belkar is a textbook example.

And the Giant (GM in the setting) have made his ruling.

[Greebo]

What ever gave you the impression that this was up for debate?

[Twilight Jack]

So much for always making it quick and clean.

Nice hat, though.

[chibibar]

The problem is that a lot of people (at least general gamers) thinks that

Chaotic Evil
- Merciless killing
- hates everyone
- will never ally with good people
- will never do good deeds
The list goes on and on...

But Belkar is a good example of what true Chaotic Evil will do. Remember folks, that CE character also have a strong will to live. If you are mortal, you can't just hate everyone and kill everyone.

After many years of gaming, I realize that CE is a hard class to play. Belkar shows it is possible. Remember that Belkar sticks around with OoTS because

- They provide protection
- They provide treasure
- They provide Experience

all these is for Belkar's benefit. Belkar submits to OoTS "demands" at times because he KNOWS that some of them can REALLY hurt him (again self preservation) Belkar Keep Elan around cause Belkar find Elan funny.

This is a total CE axis. Belkar's answer to most things are usually stab first, stab seconds, stab third and maybe stop to ask questions. :)

[Ettlesby]

The problem is that a lot of people (at least general gamers) thinks that

Chaotic Evil
- Merciless killing
- hates everyone
- will never ally with good people
- will never do good deeds
The list goes on and on...

But Belkar is a good example of what true Chaotic Evil will do. Remember folks, that CE character also have a strong will to live. If you are mortal, you can't just hate everyone and kill everyone.

After many years of gaming, I realize that CE is a hard class to play. Belkar shows it is possible. Remember that Belkar sticks around with OoTS because

- They provide protection
- They provide treasure
- They provide Experience

all these is for Belkar's benefit. Belkar submits to OoTS "demands" at times because he KNOWS that some of them can REALLY hurt him (again self preservation) Belkar Keep Elan around cause Belkar find Elan funny.

This is a total CE axis. Belkar's answer to most things are usually stab first, stab seconds, stab third and maybe stop to ask questions. :)

Belkar does everything in the name of the Greater Belkar. *nod-nod* Even if it involves not killing his 'allies' and stealing all their stuff.

[chibibar]

Belkar does everything in the name of the Greater Belkar. *nod-nod* Even if it involves not killing his 'allies' and stealing all their stuff.

Yup...Belkar does everything (and looks like EVERYthing) for Belkar's sake. If it benefits him... he will do it.

[Snake-Aes]

His "benefits" also include an amazingly low desire to plan ahead.

Belkar set a tent aflame just for the sake of it. While he was told to sneak.


That sounds chaos to me.And he's like that with quite some consistency.

[explanetpluto]

His "benefits" also include an amazingly low desire to plan ahead.

Belkar set a tent aflame just for the sake of it. While he was told to sneak.


That sounds chaos to me.And he's like that with quite some consistency.

So wait... is he lawfully chaotic?

But seriously, he kills things for the sake of killing things- that's about as chaotic-evil as you can get.

[Arbitrarity]

The last argument of Law

"But you're consistiently Chaotic!"

[sum1won]

Belkar is obviously chaotic evil. The greater belkar, as explained by Belkar, is the opportunity to create more mayhem and havoc. He isn't serving his own power, as a NE character is- he's serving the opportunity to make an enormous mess of things.

[Thanatos 51-50]

This is a total CE axis. Belkar's answer to most things are usually stab first, stab seconds, stab third and maybe stop to ask questions. :)

Why cut into your precious stabbing time? Ask 'im whilst you stab 'im.

[SandroTheMaster]

His "benefits" also include an amazingly low desire to plan ahead.


I think it is more of an "incapacity" of planing ahead than just not wanting. He have shown time and again that he is not that of a witty guy, he only goes as far as putting pieces together, as far as this will bring him some benefit (like thinking through the conditions of his Mark of Justice and deciding it could be harmful, for him, to not go and help Haley retrieve Roy's body).

[Scarab83]

If Rich says he's Chaotic Evil, he's probably Chaotic Evil. It's not like it changes the character at all. He's still acting the same as he did when you thought he was Neutral Evil.

[dan_el_hombre]

Why cut into your precious stabbing time? Ask 'im whilst you stab 'im.

since when did belkar even ask questions?

seems to me to be more like stab first, stab second, stab third, repeat

[RAGE KING!]

I thought this thread was over with the second post.

[chibibar]

since when did belkar even ask questions?

seems to me to be more like stab first, stab second, stab third, repeat

I believe you are right :)

[MReav]

He's Chaotic Evil, or at least of Rich Burlew sees Chaotic Evil (or at least one expression of it).

[Snake-Aes]

I think it is more of an "incapacity" of planing ahead than just not wanting. He have shown time and again that he is not that of a witty guy, he only goes as far as putting pieces together, as far as this will bring him some benefit (like thinking through the conditions of his Mark of Justice and deciding it could be harmful, for him, to not go and help Haley retrieve Roy's body).

Belkar made a mess with Miko. One can't do that being overpowered as he was without a LOT of cunning and preparing. Same goes for he deciding wether it was worth or not the risk of losing the key to the MoJ by letting Hinjo die or live. He CAN plan reasonably well. He's just too... chaotic to bother =D

[SKarious]

Even while planning to mess with miko, Belkar was too shortsighted to see the obvious results (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html) of this plan: He'll end up dead with no chance of resurrection.
Same with his plans to mess up other people (like V or Hinjo) - Belkar fails to consider the side effects of of having a wizard or a ruler of the city angry at him.
Chaotics are, by definition, short-term thinkers. And he is more concerned with causing grief to others - clearly evil.

[Shatteredtower]

Yup...Belkar does everything (and looks like EVERYthing) for Belkar's sake. If it benefits him... he will do it.His effort to get himself killed by Miko was clearly not to his benefit, even if Durkon could have afforded to raise him and chose to do so.

I happen to think moments like that clearly define him as chaotic, however.

[Emperor Ing]

All right..

Ok, be quiet all of you. Belkar is CHAOTIC EVIL!!! The giant came out and said it, clear as day, so get over it!

[Snake-Aes]

He had an actual benefit, yes, to make her fall(though it probably wouldn't happen, he thought it would). Which for him is priceless. He said that himself, even because he knew Durkon IS capable of casting raise dead(which also doesn't mean he could atm).

[tainsouvra]

Belkar's continued insistence and imperative for looking out for himself is clearly a Neutral Evil (or more commonly known as selfish evil), with Chaotic tendencies Alignment. A will to live is not incompatible with Chaotic Evil.

He's an unapologetic violent psychopath. He kills for the pure enjoyment of others' suffering and death, even when there is no personal gain. He sometimes destroys or kills despite the fact that there will be negative consequences to himself simply because he doesn't feel like containing himself. He could hardly be more CE than he is, he's a walking stereotype.

[Oxymoron]

Sigh, I wasn`t going to respond to this thread, but some of you and your weak arguments just make me sooo angry.

There are two ways to interpret the alignment rules:

Unbending black and white rules you can never divert from

or

guidelines

Read Celias closing argumet PLEASE: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html

Alignment only works as guidelines. If you metagame them as absolutes, you will only achieve to limit yourself as characters. Roleplaying is not a chessboard. Sure, there are rules that limit how far and where you can move and how you can act when you get there, but unlike chess you are not bound by the fact that you can only move in a certain way because you are the knight or bishop, and you can`t be friends with the black queen cause you are the white king. Roleplaying is all about running wherever you want, even off the board if you want to.

I don`t care that Belkar behaved in a lawful manner last comic (not gutting Haley in the back and taking her loot because that would be consistent with CE, but instead helping her carrying Roys corpse, TRULY a lawful and loyal action). Belkar is given an alignment and he behaves more or less in a manner consistent with that alignment (and OH GOSH, sometimes he dosen`t. Oh my, HE MUST BE LG :smalleek:)

[chibibar]

Heh.... I have to agree it is a guideline.

Belkar is CE and look out for himself. The main reason he look out for Roy cause currently Belkar is tied to Roy via MoJ. Belkar doesn't want to take the chance if the MoJ is fake.... why risk it? His personal well being is at stake. Helping out Roy just happen to be a side benefit.

Also Belkar continue to stay with OoTS cause he gets to kill things WITHOUT getting into trouble.... and if he did, the OoTS will bail him out (like Roy did when Belkar DID kill the guard) again... personal benefits.

If Belkar was an immortal like Xykon (maybe a full immortal without limitation) Belkar would dump the OoTS so fast cause he won't need them anymore and just do what makes him happy....

[Siwenna]

Chaotics are, by definition, short-term thinkers. And he is more concerned with causing grief to others - clearly evil.

Exactly.

:elan: It's like they say: hard work may pay off in the long run but laziness pays off right now.

:belkar: True dat.

[Jefepato]

Joke topic. Move along, people, nothing to see here.

[tiggermonaut]

Somehow, while processing the first post, my brain managed to substitute "Durkon" for "Belkar."
I was so confused...

[dehro]

Belkar's continued insistence and imperative for looking out for himself is clearly a Neutral Evil (or more commonly known as selfish evil), with Chaotic tendencies Alignment.

I don't see why..a drive to survive is not an exclusive trait of any alignment
(plus belkar isn't very carefull about his welbeing if you consider he jumped off a safe and secure position, the wall, to land amidst overwelming quantities of hobbos to break havoc)

[mockingbyrd7]

Somehow, while processing the first post, my brain managed to substitute "Durkon" for "Belkar."
I was so confused...

How the hell did you subsitute Durkon for Belkar? LOL, I've done stuff like that before.

[Impikmin]

Being smart doesn't mean you're lawful.

P.S. Yes, Belkar has raised his int. Yes, the MitD will eat you if you deny it:smalltongue: